Matt (00:00.752)
Hi everybody, welcome to the Latter Day Lens. This is our midterm election edition. I'm Matt. Sean's with me as always. I'm so excited to have Levi with us to talk elections. Welcome, Levi.

Levi (00:12.642)
Glad to be here getting over a cold. Excited to talk elections.

shawn (00:15.794)
Ha ha.

Matt (00:16.614)
Do you know who's not excited to talk elections? Sean. Sean's Sean's not looking forward to this. But that's okay.

shawn (00:20.136)
Ha ha.

Levi (00:22.924)
Yeah.

shawn (00:23.613)
These are hard topics, man. These are hard, boring

Levi (00:26.786)
This one did require more research. I was up r you know, researching this last night. Like, what's Matt done to us here? Yeah.

Matt (00:31.172)
Yeah. Normally I give you all of the stuff, I just feed it to you. And this time I was like, Yeah. I'm gonna skip the mailbag because I want it to be all midterm elections all the way through. So let's start with this. If you want to know what will really happen in the midterms, the economist has a simulation model that is the best predictor out there. Their model includes polls, but it's based on all of the stuff political scientists say matters in an election.

shawn (00:31.804)
good. That's

Levi (00:36.706)
Yeah, and we just react. Here we had to bring it.

Matt (01:01.296)
So, in the spirit of true nonpartisan analysis and the upcoming election, I asked each of the hosts to go to the simulation model, look for somebody that's in kind of a competitive race, and identify a Republican candidate and a Democrat candidate a Democrat candidate that they think represents the values we advocate for here at the Latter-day Lens. So try to pick someone in a competitive race. Let's start with Republican nominees. Who do we like on the Republican side?

If our listeners are in this state, we say vote for this person. If you're not in their state, who cares? Cheer for this person.

shawn (01:37.491)
I wanna see Levi I wanna see Levi get uncomfortable. Did you pick a Republican Levi?

Levi (01:41.625)
I did. I so I mean, you guys knew I was gonna come back and say the Republicans are nuts. Those are crazy people, these the but not all of right? So I found some bright spots. So the one I the one I I I looked at Mike Lawler, right? So Mike Lawler in New York is not a bad guy, but then I then I thought, wait a minute, but his opponent is better. So

shawn (01:50.096)
Ha ha

Matt (01:55.418)
Okay.

Levi (02:10.338)
Like but I but I like that he, you know, I feel like there's a lot of mania on in the Republican Party about the trans kids. And I I really appreciate that Mike Lawler came out and said, No, we are not gonna pass a law that prevents gender affirming care with parents and doctors. Like he's like, Okay, let's let's just be chill about this.

But the but the and and he has he has this great idea to put oil revenue into Social Security. He says, okay, so he's in favor of expanding American energy, and I think that that's fine. And but his idea is you know all the new leases that we all the money that we make from new oil and gas leases we'll put into social security and and that'll shore it up for years to come. So that that wasn't a bad idea. But here's the here's my pick.

Matt (02:41.647)
Wow.

Levi (03:05.752)
Now, this is somebody not on the Econo Economist website because she is running for Oregon State Senate. I I did some local people. She's running for Oregon Senate in coastal, north coastal Oregon. Her name is Courtney Bangs. And what I like about her is she is I I feel like Oregon grows the best Republicans in the country. They tend to be like they're

Very progressive on a lot of things. And then they come in and they say, Here are the places that government needs to be held accountable and we're gonna do it. So she's she represents rural Oregon. So she is she's for expanding forest harvesting, but in responsible ways. I like the way she talks about that. She says, This is a resource, it's something that needs to be preserved, but also something that needs to be used, and we have people whose jobs rely on this, so let's

let's harvest our forests our forests. And she's also in favor of lots of things that matter to her rural constituency, expanding rural health care, building you know bridges and and roads out in rural places. I think those are important things to spend money on. So anyway.

Matt (04:24.805)
D does she have any chance of winning?

Levi (04:28.076)
Yeah. now this is the Oregon State Senate, right? So this is not the the this is not the national senate, but she's got anyway, I thought she looked like she was doing okay. But it's hard to tell with these state races. Like those polls there's not a lot of polling, so you don't really know. But she's she's good people. So if you're in Oregon, if you're in northwestern Oregon, maybe give a look to Courtney Bangs, Republican.

Matt (04:42.244)
Okay.

shawn (04:42.514)
She's Republican.

Matt (04:45.549)
Yeah. Right. There's not a lot of information.

shawn (04:57.248)
Wow.

Matt (04:57.433)
I thought for sure you were gonna choose Senator David Brock Smith who's running against Jeff Merkley in the in the Senate race. No? You don't wanna go with

Levi (05:06.03)
I think Jeff Merkley should run for president. I love that dude, so

Matt (05:09.947)
Hey, you know what, Levi? This is great. You're showing us that local representation is best. In Oregon you can find a Republican you like and you love your senator and that's the way it normally is. So that's awesome.

Levi (05:22.36)
Well, and and I think that this rural urban divide is really an important thing to talk about in our country. That that w and I don't know why it's developed this way, but we tend to you know, there tend to we tend to have rural rural US represented by Republicans and and urban suburban by Democrats. So I think that's worth talking about. I don't know exactly why that is, and we should think about that. I think

Democrats should pay more attention to rural counties, and Republicans should should make some efforts toward urban ones. Yeah.

Matt (05:56.476)
Try to get those urban voters. Yeah. That would be nice. That's a good idealistic positive way to think about it, Levi. Sean, you want to do your Republican or do you want me to go next? You go next, Sean. Yeah.

shawn (06:09.948)
I'll go next. mine's approach is a little different. I think when you two are thinking of politicians, it's like the equivalence of like being a twelve year old opening a pack of baseball cards in nineteen eighty four. And it's like, dude, I hope I get the Daryl Strawberry and the Dwight Good. And you guys are like, you guys are like nerding out over the Yeah, my my approach is a little different. I don't get as excited about this. So my approach was like, how like it was I had mixed feelings and experiences going through this process because on the one hand I started to feel very almost covetous and judgmental.

Matt (06:22.171)
Ha ha ha

Mm-hmm.

shawn (06:39.248)
Because I'm like, I don't know these people. I don't know these people. And I'm supposed to pass judgment on who's a good person. Like, you don't know. There's no way to know. And then on the other hand, it was like, well, wait a minute. Some of them have voting records and some of them have, I guess, public lives. So I guess I can judge and not feel terrible about it. In the end, there were I I kinda here's the criteria I kind of gave my search. I want independent thinkers. I don't want people who are loyal to party. I don't I want people who have a track record who's

Matt (06:39.419)
Mm.

shawn (07:09.17)
They're willing to stick to a conviction instead of just toe the line, close their eyes, be a blind sheep, and just follow. So in Iowa there's a dude named

shawn (07:23.186)
There's a dude named Zach Nunn. He's a Republican in Iowa. Pretty into has kind of an independent like thought process or record. he is congressional district, third congressional district of Iowa.

Matt (07:31.289)
He's running for Senate? No.

Matt (07:36.975)
Okay, all right, all right, good. That's it? That's your guy?

shawn (07:40.464)
I it he just he th the best I could find was that he was he was willing to not be a loyal like Republican and just follow the party. There's a track record of him of him kind of like bailing on the party every now and then and voting his conscience. That's all I got.

Matt (07:55.022)
Okay. I wanted to go with Michelle Tefoyer in Minnesota because she's a sports broadcaster and and I always liked her watching her on TV. But on the issues, she doesn't feel she feels a little extreme to me on the issues. And so I don't know if I can if I can go Sean's way where I just look at the person and not their policy positions, then I don't know if I can I I would probably go Michelle Tefoyer in Minnesota, but I'm gonna go with Susan Collins in Maine. She's the incumbent in Maine and

Levi (07:56.076)
Okay.

shawn (07:59.997)
Horse.

Matt (08:24.099)
I say we should vote for her. We should support her because she's the last best hope for bipartisanship in America. She's a senator who, again, if you say doesn't put party first, I mean, you have to a little bit if you're the Republican senator from Maine, but she tries to look at issues and say what's in the best interest of my constituents and what are the things I believe in. And sure, sometimes she votes for things that I don't, I wish she wouldn't vote for. But if Susan Collins in Maine loses,

I fear that the message will be sent to politicians in the future. Don't work across party lines. Don't try to find compromise because we will punish you for that. And so that's why I say I support Susan Collins in Maine.

shawn (09:06.034)
So she voted she voted against Trump's major tax and spending legislation, citing a projected effects on Medicaid, low income families and rural health care providers would be a bit negative. She voted to convict Trump on an impeachment charge following the Janu January sixth. Yeah. So so she seems to be independently thinker as well, which I I like. I like that.

Matt (09:17.861)
Two of yeah, January sixth. That's right. Yeah.

Matt (09:26.637)
Which as an incumbent, most incumbents have a ninety five percent chance of winning, but the economist gives her a twenty eight percent chance of winning. I mean, you never know, but the the economist says probably not. So that's why I'm on her side. Okay, what about Democrats? Who wants to go first on Democrats that you support? yeah.

shawn (09:31.27)
Does she? she's not gonna win?

shawn (09:40.946)
She's

Levi (09:45.841)
wait, we talk about Thomas Massey? Did you guys if Thomas Massey were in, was he somebody we liked? He's out, right? Like that's another person. Now, now there's nothing bipartisan about Thomas Massey, but he is a principled person. Right? So yeah. have you not heard of Thomas Massey, Sean? man, you should read about that guy, yeah.

Matt (09:51.225)
He's out. Thomas Massey's gone. Yeah, yeah.

Matt (10:02.371)
Yeah. He's a Republican. He's the Republican that was No, Sean knows him. He just doesn't know him by name. No, he's the one that pushed to release the Epstein files. He's the one that Yeah. I I actually have a friend who lives in Thomas Massey's district and is really in involved in the Republican Party in that district. So I asked him about why Thomas Massey lost, and he said, because Thomas Massey always went against the party.

shawn (10:02.706)
He's he's a Republican?

shawn (10:07.367)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (10:13.176)
gotcha. Yeah.

Levi (10:15.351)
Yeah and

Matt (10:30.415)
he lost any kind of influence within the party. And so he wasn't able to bring home federal dollars to the district because he was always this outsider, kind of seen as like not a part of the game. And so I yeah.

Levi (10:45.24)
Well, and and th but this is another unfortunate lesson that Republicans learned because Thomas Massey was a very staunch Republican. That's a very conservative person. Like I look at his record and I think, I don't like that guy. But what I do like about that guy is he has principles, right? And he is loyal to them, right? And and money's not gonna talk him out of those principles and

shawn (11:04.698)
And isn't and isn't that ironic that any of these parties are so different than they used to be that that those things don't matter anymore. All that matters is loyalty to this makes me that's so sad, man. Is it?

Matt (11:18.733)
Sean, that's why it's it's the way it's always been. It has always been. You gotta be loyal to your party. I mean, we've had periods of time where it wasn't so much that way, but yeah, that's the way it works. You gotta choose a party, be loyal to that party if you wanna be powerful in American politics. So the best we can hope for is find principled people who will try to shape that policy, right? Shape that party going in the direction you hope they go in. But okay, what about on the Democrat side? Sean, are there any Democrats you would vote for in the

shawn (11:47.674)
Marie Gloosenkamp Perez.

Matt (11:50.51)
In Arizona?

Levi (11:51.97)
No, she's from my hometown.

shawn (11:52.007)
She's in Washington. Yeah, Washington. She again, a very independent minded, principled person, is what I found in my research.

Matt (11:54.206)
Matt (12:02.107)
She's she's running for local like wa Washington state representative.

shawn (12:09.001)
third congressional district.

Levi (12:09.793)
No.

Matt (12:11.093)
okay. All right. Levi

shawn (12:13.714)
Levi (12:13.89)
Yeah, she's a federal rep right now. She's running for reelection.

Matt (12:17.797)
She's a Democrats represents Levi right now. So Levi, you could listen to Sean maybe and vote for that person.

shawn (12:22.598)
Yeah.

Levi (12:23.532)
No, she actually represents my hometown. I don't live there anymore, but yeah. Yeah.

Matt (12:26.779)
okay. You could tell your dad to vote for her.

shawn (12:28.539)
I mean j

I mean the I mean Levi, I I just looked at her track record. Again, my my basis in twenty twenty six is I'm tired of of politicians just following party lines and not thinking for themselves. And so the fact that she has a somewhat of an independent thinking track record is what makes me like her. It seems like she's making decisions I would assume on principle instead of on party loyalty. But y you'd know better than I. She's in your state. What what you think?

Levi (13:00.518)
no no I I and I haven't researched her very much at all either. yeah, I dunno I w I mean I was pleased to see look, it's a Democrat represent my my hometown tends to be conservative, so that was kind of an upset when she won.

Matt (13:16.501)
okay. All right. My Democrat, I've got two of them. They're both running for Senate, one in Kansas, one in Texas. I've got Adam Hamilton in Kansas. He's the Democrat running for Senate. I've he's a pastor with United Methodist Church of the Resurrection. he's a staunch religious person. And so I like him. I think he agrees. He and I probably see things eye to eye in terms of the latter day lens. And then James Talerico in Texas, same thing.

a minister when I hear him talk about the Bible, when I hear him talk about faith and how that should inform our political views, James Tallerico. So you can pick either one of those, Adam Hamilton, James Tallerico. They're not members of our church, but they see the world the way that I do.

Levi (13:58.349)
Hm. Which is how?

shawn (13:59.037)
So that so yeah.

Matt (14:01.395)
so when I I was talking with Sandra about this today, because I've been reading the Old Testament. I'm almost all the way done with the Old Testament. And I was reading in the book of Amos, and the things that he condemns the children of Israel for doing in the Bible, he's mad at them for cooking bread with yeast, and he's upset at them for not taking care of the poor and not thinking about the poor. And I was like, if I look at the Old Testament, the number of times it says

Levi (14:21.784)
Ha ha

Matt (14:30.863)
Don't cook bread with yeast. And it says, don't charge interest on things. And it says, look out for the poor. That's so much more than what it says about homosexuality, or there's nothing about transgender stuff in there. And and Jesus tells us like how we should treat our neighbors, like he says that that's more important than anything else. And so these two Democrats, the way that they see the world is through this lens of like,

Commandments are important. Like let's not ignore commandments. But the most important thing is how we treat people around us. And we should use government as a resource to help the poor and the needy around us. And we shouldn't get more upset about the gay people in our neighborhood than we do about the people that are cooking bread with yeast in it in our neighborhood. Cause those are just commandments that the Bible condemns. And we should not worry less about that and worry more about the weightier matters. So that's what I like about both of them.

Levi (15:27.352)
Does Tel Rico have a position on yeast? Did you research that? No, let me put on my Sean hat and say, but now wait a minute, Matt. There what didn't he just mean for us all to share our didn't God just mean for us all to take care of the poor individually and not as a government?

Matt (15:29.915)
I haven't I haven't heard him talk about yeast.

shawn (15:46.428)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (15:46.988)
I I think he meant I definitely think he meant that. But at the same time, the government is the people and it's a reflection of our our wishes and our desires. And so if so if I have to choose morality that I'm going to impose on other people through government action, I would rather impose charity and kindness and goodness to our neighbors more than let's enforce biblical standards that I I read in the scriptures. So that's why I would prioritize that.

Matt (16:16.131)
Levi, what do you say? Who what wh who's your candidate?

Levi (16:19.832)
My Democrat?

Matt (16:21.529)
Yeah, can you find a democrat that agrees with you?

shawn (16:23.526)
Ha ha ha.

Levi (16:24.482)
That I like. Boy, I don't know, right? No, yeah. And there the problem was the other side. And I know your audience thinks I'm just a partisan hack, but but I I Angie Nixon is fantastic. Go look at Angie Nixon. She's very liberal. she's one of your democratic socialists that your republicans are gonna warn you about. But she's fantastic, great ideas. She's running Florida. but

Matt (16:26.347)
Yeah.

Levi (16:53.078)
The one I chose I again, going locally, so I looked at Val Hoyle, which I didn't know much about. She's running for reelection in Oregon's fourth. Now we've gone south for those keeping score at home. Now she represents southern coastal Oregon. and she's got what's that?

Matt (17:07.427)
Medford? Medford, Oregon?

Levi (17:12.218)
I yeah, I think she has Medford in there. I Medford might be Cliff Bentz. I'm not sure. We'd have to look at the map. We can look the map here. But

Matt (17:16.995)
Okay. Just just trying to like in my head work out where the congressional district boundaries are in the state of Oregon.

Levi (17:21.922)
Yeah, yeah. The you got a lot of Oregon geography buffs. No, it looks like it looks like Medford is Cliff Benz. So Oregon District grabs a whole bunch of rural southern Oregon and and gloms it together with the east. okay, so Val Val Hoyle has a lot of great ideas about housing, which I think is another thing that we aren't talking enough about, right? And so she's got all these proposals to

shawn (17:26.17)
Hobby of a hobby of Matt's.

Matt (17:28.173)
okay. All right.

Levi (17:49.654)
Simplify permitting and zoning so that we can allow different kinds of housing that we didn't that we didn't have before. And she could it's this is her

shawn (17:55.005)
What? Deregulation from a Democrat.

Levi (18:00.187)
Yeah, right. But all but also public investment. So she this is her road to housing program and it involves both. So it says, you know, we're gonna allow more types of housing that we didn't used to allow. And also we're gonna have public private partnerships to build additional housing so that people can have places to live and we can bring housing costs down. And there's obviously a lobby that doesn't want housing costs down, but she's ready to do that. So that I liked about her.

shawn (18:28.444)
Go Val. I like that.

Levi (18:28.998)
and again another sort of rural Oregon representative doing good work.

shawn (18:33.51)
Go Val. That was nice.

Matt (18:33.559)
Okay. All right. Everybody gets the points on that for doing research. So points for everybody. Okay. We're going to do predictions near the end. So before we do predictions, we're going to revisit some predictions we made in episode 91, just before the 2024 presidential election. And we're going to see who was right or wrong on these predictions. So on foreign policy, I said that Trump will not support Ukraine. I said Trump believes Ukraine doesn't exist anymore and is gone.

I also said that Putin expects Trump to capitulate and let Russia dictate the terms of ending the war. I also said that Trump will escalate violence in the Middle East because of his unconditional support for Israel. I argued that Israel would continue to escalate against Iran and create wider conflict. So while I said Ukraine is gr gone, Sean said that Trump was posturing and his what he was saying was intended to force both Kiev and Moscow to the bargaining table.

Levi (19:20.191)
you smug

Matt (19:30.661)
He argued- Sean argued that Trump's objective was not handing Kiev over to Moscow, but freezing the front line and forcing a de facto territorial compromise over Crimea and the Donbass. So here's the question: who got that right? I mean, me, right? Yeah, just on foreign policy. Who was right? Sean, me, neither. I'm gonna say me. I think I was definitely right about that. Sam, I remember Sam and Sean both telling me that.

shawn (19:44.368)
Three of those?

Matt (19:56.614)
Them that Trump was going to bring peace to the world. And I was very adamant that Trump was not going to bring peace to the world. You guys were talking about some a accords of some kind that was going to bring peace in the Middle East. And was like, You're crazy. And I do I know, but you did not believe that Trump was going to expand conflict in the Middle East. You did not believe

shawn (20:08.38)
Don't clump me in with Sam. I didn't have the same opinions as Sam.

shawn (20:16.752)
I don't think I don't remember having a strong opinion on that. We can go listen to that. I was v very open to listening to what you were preaching. Like that that yeah, I wasn't arguing against you. So I'll I'll happily give you the back then I was giving you the points on that. So I'll happily give you the points on you having a crystal ball about that.

Matt (20:21.018)
No, it's okay.

Mm.

Matt (20:30.747)
What about Russia and Ukraine? Where I said Trump was gonna not support Ukraine. Was I just too strong and you were more right? So

shawn (20:40.678)
Yeah. I think you were too strong. Yeah, I think I was a little more right in that. I think you were a little little off. You y you took a side where you're like, I gotta create an enemy in this American government and decide that they're gonna be one hundred percent pro Russia and against Ukraine. I mean that hasn't been the case. They haven't done nearly enough, but I don't think you were quite right there.

Matt (21:00.515)
At least they didn't turn off at least they didn't turn off the satellites, right? As Ukraine was starting to to win. At least they didn't start

Levi (21:06.478)
Well, they didn't hand over Kiev and and I don't know whether like I think that when we make predictions there are two questions. One is what is the intention of that elected representative? And then can they can they accomplish it? And I don't think Trump cares at all whether Putin has Kiev or doesn't. I don't think he I don't it just wasn't possible to hand over Kiev to to Putin.

Matt (21:23.886)
Mm-hmm.

Levi (21:36.29)
But he didn't in the end. So Sean was right that he that the front line has been frozen, right? Like there hasn't been much movement either direction.

Matt (21:43.086)
Yeah. This is this is what I decided, because I've Trump and Russia in Ukraine drives me crazy, right? As soon as Ukraine starts to win in Russia, Trump kind of like backstabs them. This is what I decided. Trump is of an age where Reagan bringing down the Soviet Union like kind of cemented him in history as this great foreign policy president. And I think Trump is desperate.

shawn (21:51.911)
Yeah.

Matt (22:12.527)
Like Trump can't fathom the idea that Russia today isn't what the Soviet Union was. And so I think that Trump is just desperate to have some kind of deal with Russia where he can like look like Reagan and look like, look what I did. I solved the Russia problem and and take credit for it. And I think that that's same thing in the Middle East.

shawn (22:29.776)
Well well and and he's he's desperate for to have some influence over the midterms and not be blamed for gas prices being so high.

Matt (22:38.355)
yeah. Well yeah, that's actually worse. But yeah, there's that too. Yeah. Hm.

shawn (22:44.604)
But I agree with you. He's his legacy is being established right now and it's I don't see anyone support it's it's horrible. It's terrible.

Matt (22:53.465)
Yeah. So Levi, you're saying that Sean was more right than I was, or I was more right than Sean. Or Sam. Sam was wrong on all of it. Since he's not here, we can take stabs at Sam. He wa he was so wrong. We come after you.

shawn (22:58.158)
Yeah.

Levi (23:01.774)
Sam under the bus. He's not here. You don't show up for the pine. Let that be a lesson to you, guest host. You don't show up for the podcast. It's open season over here. so yeah, I mean, I Trump was gonna do the thing that was best for Trump. So he was always gonna side with Putin because Putin can give Trump more than than Zelinski can. But I I just I don't think he ever intended to give

shawn (23:01.798)
Ha ha.

shawn (23:10.866)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (23:27.779)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Levi (23:32.432)
Ukraine any kind of help. He just didn't didn't have the ability to hand over the rest of Ukraine to Putin and so he didn't. So who was right? I don't know. Everybody was right. Everybody gets the points.

Matt (23:40.771)
Yeah.

shawn (23:41.488)
Yeah, man, I was

Matt (23:45.943)
Everybody was right. Go ahead, Sean.

shawn (23:47.581)
I think you were mostly right in all of it. I mean the the foreign policy one with Israel and and I Iran, like I I wasn't against you on that, so I'd we were both good on that one. The only one I th yeah, the tariff we talked about tariffs and what it was for and how it was applied. We talked about like domestic sorry, go ahead.

Matt (24:02.213)
Wait, that's the next one. That's the next question. Yeah. So on the domestic front, Sean defended Trump's tariff proposals and rhetoric as a deliberate strategy to pressure and score scare the international community to start playing fair. He Sean compared it to Trump threatening to leave NATO during his first term to get the European nations to increase defense spending. Sean said he did not believe Trump would actually follow through on blanket tariffs, but he thought it was a bluff. I repeatedly said Trump had no plans and possessed no coherent coherent

Economic or regulatory agenda that could replicate the economic growth he had in his first term. So, how do we do on domestic policy predictions?

shawn (24:40.122)
Well, I mean, you yeah, your claim was that he had zero plan. He actually did have a plan. And it whether we liked it or not, it it did it did it has affected things. And and the tariff thing, my statement was that it he was just using it as a bargaining tool. That's definitely played out. He that's the only reason he's using it. I didn't say he wouldn't. I said he w I didn't say he was bluffing necessarily. I just said he would continue to use it as a bargaining tool. And you said there's some other ulterior motive. You said it was all economic, I thought.

Matt (24:54.393)
Well, he did put tariffs on. Like he yeah.

Matt (25:03.024)
Mm.

Matt (25:06.681)
Well, I will just say I was completely wrong because I did not think that Trump had any plans at all. And he came in to office on day one with hundreds of executive orders and a complete plan to dismantle the regulatory state in the United States of America. And he had all that project twenty twenty five stuff like was ready to go. Congress was ready to implement this legislative agenda that they had put in place in advance. So I thought he had no plan.

I I guess we can disagree about whether or not it was a good plan, but he definitely had a plan. And I think everybody should be envious of what the Republican Party accomplished in Trump's first six months in office. Like, man.

shawn (25:47.992)
Levi is definitely envious. Levi has envy for the Republican Party.

Matt (25:51.438)
I mean, the the things they were promising, I didn't think there was any way they would actually get it done. Like, because politicians always promise that stuff. And the the Republicans only had the House of Representatives by like five votes. And Republicans are notoriously difficult to corral and get them to like jump on board with things. So I was like, there's no way they're getting stuff through the House of Representatives, let alone all the the

Levi (26:14.38)
When they didn't really. They didn't pass any legislation, but one big beautiful bill was all. Yeah.

Matt (26:17.209)
Well, the one big beautiful bill. They put everything into that, right? And in that one big beautiful bill they they created statutes to kind of reinforce a lot of the executive orders and to make things really, really difficult to undo later on.

Levi (26:32.858)
And as they always do, there's only one thing Republicans always accomplish and ex and it's tax cuts for rich people. And they put at work. Yeah.

Matt (26:40.803)
Yeah, so yeah. So again, and it's not just the tax cuts, right? It's they they rolled back subsidies for Obamacare. I didn't think that would happen. They rolled back food stamps aid, like aid for poor people. I didn't think they'd get that done. Like so many things they rolled into their one big beautiful bill were deeply unpopular with America things with that affect Medicare and Social Security. I thought there's no way Republicans will support this stuff. no matter how much they like tax cuts.

Levi (26:48.524)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Levi (27:03.342)
Yeah.

Matt (27:09.189)
They're not gonna vote for tax cuts when it involves cutting programs that are so popular with the American public. So again, I thought there was a no agenda. And I thought Mike Johnson, he's a brand new speaker of the house. He doesn't know what he's doing. He's not gonna I was completely wrong at what the Republicans were able to do in a short period of time.

Levi (27:10.595)
Right.

shawn (27:30.15)
Wrong? Yeah, w we we end that. I end there. Matt was wrong.

Matt (27:31.258)
Yeah. Okay. I was wrong. Okay. Well, so now that we've covered where we were wrong last time, let's talk about what's gonna happen. So we'll go two sides. If the predic if the Democrats take the House and the Senate, and then what if they don't? So what happens if the Democrats take the House on the Senate in the midterm elections? What do you guys think will happen?

Levi (27:35.02)
That was wrong. Thanks for coming. See you all next time.

shawn (27:37.852)
Ha ha ha ha.

shawn (27:56.626)
You're not gonna read your list? These are good.

Matt (27:58.46)
Well, there's a whole bunch of ideas, a bunch of topics we could talk about, but

shawn (28:01.735)
I I before you read the list, which is interesting, I would love to hear Levi's take on what do you think will happen?

Levi (28:06.671)
Yeah, nothing. but but I but I do and I do think that I may I think maybe Democrats have learned that the the only thislative accomplishment that Democrats have had for a long yeah like when they have controlled House Senate and the presidency was they the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare. And they had to spend everything. What's that?

shawn (28:27.442)
Obamacare, yeah.

Matt (28:28.411)
Well, in the pandemic in the pandemic, Biden passed a lot of stuff, funding for lots and lots and lots of things.

shawn (28:31.809)
pandemic too.

Levi (28:36.003)
That's true. That's true. They had lots of infrastructure bills. That's true. No, that's true. that's a good point. I think that with with a Republican president, they will accomplish almost nothing. I think that they will try to to pass election reforms. I think that they will try to look at redistricting, limiting the power of lobbyists.

And campaign finance and that they will fail at all of it because it'll all get vetoed and there'll be some barely elected Democrat like we had last time. There'll be some Kirsten Cinema, some Joe Manchin that'll be like, I don't know. I think maybe we should pass more tax cuts for rich people. And and they won't get anything done. So that's my prediction. But I do predict that states are gonna move, that states are gonna start implementing their own campaign finance.

shawn (29:14.854)
Yeah.

Levi (29:30.009)
They're gonna start implementing their own I predict minimum wages are gonna go up in states. I predict a lot of motion, even in red states, that I think red states are are gonna start coming on board for s with some of this.

Matt (29:43.395)
What about impeachment, Levi? Are they gonna impeach Trump?

Levi (29:46.965)
No, it didn't do any good last time, they won't do it again.

shawn (29:49.949)
That's the reason they're gonna do it. This is this is our Democrat Party. They're going to do it and shoot themselves in the foot again and again and again. And it's so frustrating.

Matt (29:50.405)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (30:01.402)
Well

Levi (30:01.475)
Well it was the I mean, he should be impeached and removed. I think everybody knows that. This man is the most corrupt president we've seen in my lifetime, for certain. I mean, you could you could impeach him over corruption. That's easy. Jared Kushner, man, that guy is o is raking in billions, billions of dollars with a B.

shawn (30:20.87)
But prag but like you said, pragmatically it won't go through, but they'll do it and they'll lose but and it'll aff and it'll s it'll enrage Republicans. It's pathetic. They're gonna do it.

Matt (30:32.251)
So here's here's where I'm at on on impeachment. I don't think it does anybody any good to impeach a lame duck president. And I don't think the Democrats want JD Vance to be the president of the United States. So I think that what they will do is I think they will impeach Pete Hegzeth and Kosh Patel. I think that they'll go for people under Trump who are breaking the law, and Republicans have no love for them anyways. And so it won't cost the Republicans anything to remove them from office. And if the Democrats control the Senate,

shawn (30:54.225)
Nice.

Matt (31:00.889)
They can have some say in who the new nominee is. So I in terms of like, I I think to the only check you will see Democrats have on the White House will be impeaching people under Trump and the ones they think that they can remove from office. And I think that, by the way, what will happen is the White House will have a conversation with Republicans who will say, I'm gonna vote to remove him from office. And then the White House will just tell those people, you need to resign. You don't have the support. And so

shawn (31:04.626)
That's a fun prediction. That's a fun one.

Matt (31:29.541)
Those people will just resign rather than getting impeached and removed from office. So I think that's the only check you would get. I think if the repu if the Democrats are smart, what they will do is they will say, most Americans hate the Republican Party, but they also hate us too. Why do they hate us? Because we don't have any kind of like forward looking agenda that people can get on board with. And so if the Democrats are smart, if if they have the House and the Senate, they will pass bill after bill after bill that they know that Trump will veto.

To set a legislative agenda for the White House in the next two years, that they'll say, you should put us in the White House because look, we've already passed all of these bills. And if we had had a Democrat to sign those bills, they would be law right now. So I think they'll focus on the big issues. I think they'll focus on healthcare. I think they'll focus on affordability. And I think that they'll focus on corruption. They're gonna try and do some investigations and pass laws to put an end to corrup corruption.

Levi (32:04.975)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (32:26.425)
I mean, I haven't paid a lot of attention to the things that the Democrats are saying, but that's what I think they're saying. And so I think that that's what they'll do is they'll pass legislation on these big ideas so that they have legislation in place if they win the White House in two years.

shawn (32:40.156)
Mm. Interesting. Okay. noise here.

Matt (32:42.511)
Yeah, I think we lost Levi. okay.

Levi (32:44.611)
No, I'm here. Anyth I'm just totally really still. Sean, what about you? You got any predictions? What's gonna happen?

Matt (32:48.123)
Ha ha ha.

shawn (32:48.13)
Hey.

shawn (32:53.1)
I'm gonna go with Matt, I think. That that's I trust him on that and he's usually right. He was r he wanted to point out in this whole episode how much more right he was than me, and so I'm going to just give it to him.

Matt (33:06.917)
Não é.

Levi (33:07.833)
Why fight it? Why not just concur? What's the movie where he's like, Do you concur? Doctor, do you concur? Why didn't I just concur? So Sean just concurs.

Matt (33:12.827)
I really did I really did try to find things where I was wrong. It was just so hard to do because I'm right all the time. All right, what if the d go ahead.

shawn (33:12.9)
Yeah.

Levi (33:23.946)
what about so so Strait of Hormuz, Iran. What's gonna happen?

shawn (33:25.276)
do I do think just my one my one yeah my one my one point though is I think that the the Democrats will I hope and pray that they will come out with more aggressive pro Ukraine motions. I do hope that will happen.

Matt (33:40.314)
It's already they won't do it because that stuff has already passed and President Trump's ignoring it. So that's to Levi's question about straight up war moves. Nothing. The Democrats will do nothing about that. They're gonna let Trump own that and they're just gonna do nothing because they're gonna say no matter what legislation we pass, Trump's gonna ignore it anyways. And so, I mean, maybe, maybe they do do a declaration of war against Russia. But I it would shock me if they did.

Levi (33:40.407)
Mm.

shawn (34:01.968)
Yeah, but your theory but your theory was they're gonna take actions in preparation for the hopefully the next democratic president to to set an agenda and to set a direction. So I'm hoping that you're right in that and that Ukraine becomes this really symbolic fight against the East.

Matt (34:21.839)
Democrats don't care that much about Ukraine either. I I hate to say it, but they don't. Democrats Democrats want to cut foreign aid not foreign aid, military spending. They do not want to get militarily involved in that. So I don't think that the dem that's on the ag agenda for Democrats at all. I think no matter who wins

shawn (34:39.57)
Geez, Levi, come on, man.

Levi (34:44.207)
Me at your turn of me as a Democrat. So seven dollar gas in in twenty twenty seven.

Matt (34:52.901)
Mm-hmm.

Levi (34:53.817)
I mean twenty tw twenty twenty eight, d at election day, in twenty twenty eight, are we gonna have seven dollar gas still?

shawn (35:02.105)
kiss.

Matt (35:02.285)
Where does seven dollar gas? You guys must have like really high taxes in Oregon. We only pay four dollars.

Levi (35:06.669)
I w I was just in Washington. Diesel was seven bucks. Six six ninety nine. Sorry, six ninety nine point nine.

Matt (35:09.925)
Wow.

shawn (35:10.067)
Yeah. Yeah.

Levi (35:15.503)
yeah.

Matt (35:15.6)
yeah, so Levi, do you think that the Democrats will do anything about Russia Ukraine if they win the House and the Senate?

Levi (35:25.295)
mmm, right. Will they will they talk about it? Yes. Will they do it?

Levi (35:35.533)
I d I know. I don't know. I wish they would.

Matt (35:35.867)
Yeah. Yeah. And I yeah, I don't think they'll I don't think they'll do anything in the Middle East either. I think that they'll just they're just gonna let Trump own all that foreign policy stuff he started. And and it makes me sad. I do think that what they will do, what the Democrats will do is they will pass laws that allow refugees and asylum seekers to remain in the United States. I think that they will try legislatively to provide protections to people who are fleeing the conflict.

And I think that they know that Trump will veto all of that legislation. And so they'll just put that out there to just keep saying, look, we want to be friendly to people in need. They're going to shift the conversation on of immigration away from protecting the borders to a more humanitarian kind approach. but again, I don't think anything will happen on it until unless a Democrat wins the White House.

shawn (36:26.769)
Wow.

Levi (36:26.863)
Do you think that a Ukraine specific immigration bill would w w do you think Trump would let that through?

Matt (36:33.902)
No. No, I don't think he would. Maybe yeah, I don't think he

shawn (36:35.772)
No way, right?

Levi (36:36.087)
Even though they're white.

Levi (36:41.507)
Yeah, I don't think so either. It's just not it's just not priority for him, plus Putin owns him, so

Matt (36:47.44)
More than that, Trump won Trump believes that he's right on immigration. He believes that he's doing the right thing on all of these sorts of things and kick kicking people out of the United States and so yeah. what about ICE, Levi? Do you think that the Democrats will try to defund ICE?

Levi (37:03.519)
I think they will, yeah. I I don't know, right? Like will they will they get everybody on board? They can't get everybody on board with that, but I think they'll get two thirds of the Democrats would vote for that, but that's not enough. Yeah.

Matt (37:05.616)
But it would get vetoed. Right.

Matt (37:12.294)
Right.

Matt (37:18.074)
Yeah. Again on that one, I I wish I I wish I could say there's gonna be change. But again on that issue, I think that the Democrats will hold hearings. They will try to get it in the news, all of this information about what's happening in America, because some people aren't seeing that on the news because only certain outlets cover it. So the Democrats will try to bring attention through it through hearings, but I don't think maybe they'll pa it just as a bad look when you say let's defund immigration and customs enforcement. So I don't think that they'll pass legislation. Maybe they'll do some kind of

Levi (37:23.417)
Yeah.

Matt (37:47.268)
immigration reform bill. But again, I would be surpr I'd be surprised if they did.

Levi (37:51.577)
Yeah. But you know ICE is only twenty five years old or something. ICE is only ICE is a was a George W. Bush innovation. That was a part of the yeah.

Matt (38:01.338)
No, for s for sure. It's Department of Homeland Security after nine eleven, after September eleventh. Yeah, but but it doesn't matter. The optics of that issue are if you sound like you're defunding immigration enforcement and customs enforcement, then you're like, What's wrong with you? Why do you hate the police? So

Levi (38:05.508)
Yeah.

Levi (38:16.665)
Yeah, yeah.

shawn (38:16.71)
Matt, do your do your political scientists' sensibilities get offended when I say I think it's good to have kind of stalemate. I like having you know, the different parties in opposing powers, right? Let's I like that the Democrats will have control and that there's a Republican president because it it slows things down. This is like a libertarian kind of view, like, yeah, stop, stop.

Matt (38:38.542)
It it doesn't bother me at all, Sean. I just I want our listeners to understand because come when it's election season, both of the parties wanna make you feel like who you vote for makes a big difference. And they want to make you feel like who wins makes a big difference. And so there's a lot of anticipation right now that things in America could change a lot if the

shawn (38:57.766)
And the and the media will hype it up like crazy, right? 'Cause of clickbait, because the the media will make money having everyone tune in to be like, the Democrats are gonna win and it's gonna make a big difference. It's just hype, right?

Matt (39:09.798)
That's that's what I think. But again, I was the one who said Trump had no plan. So I could be wrong about this. There might be something there that I'm not aware of, but I just think listeners need to be prepared for. No matter who wins, things aren't gonna change all that much because elections isn't that's not how we solve problems in society. What if the Democrats don't take the House and the Senate? Will any major things be different in the US?

shawn (39:36.018)
We'll have to listen to an annoying Trump say that he's got a mandate and

Matt (39:40.092)
Yeah. yeah.

shawn (39:42.298)
Right. Is that a possibility? Historically that that's n like n very rarely happens. Is that correct?

Matt (39:51.441)
That's right. I mean it's it would make sense. It wouldn't be unusual for the re the Republicans to hold the Senate. That wouldn't be unprecedented. This is a cycle, by the way, the the Democrats should be losing like three seats this election cycle, the way that which states are up. Like the fact that we're even talking about the Democrats taking the Senate is just a a sign of how unpopular President Trump is. But he

Levi (40:10.169)
Yeah.

fact that we're having a discussion about Kansas, about a Democrat elected to the Senate in Kansas and Texas, this is yeah, Ohio, these are crazy events, yeah.

Matt (40:16.058)
Yeah. Alaska Tech right. That it seems that Georgia isn't even competitive, that North Carolina isn't even competitive right now. Like, but but Trump's unaware of that. And so if things I I think I think the thing I feel safe saying is if the Republicans win the House and the Senate, we're all gonna get five thousand dollars. And I think that that's the most hopeful. I think that's the most hopeful thing.

Levi (40:41.357)
Definitely.

shawn (40:43.479)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (40:46.696)
Trump has never made a promise he didn't keep. And so I'm confident that that's the that's the most likely outcome if the Republicans sweep it. Yeah. do you think that Trump behaves differently, Levi?

Levi (41:02.427)
if he holds if he holds the Senate and the House.

Matt (41:05.338)
Yeah. No, no, just the Senate. There's no way they c there's this is just not conceivable that the Republicans win the House.

Levi (41:12.397)
I don't I don't think so either. I was just gonna look at betting markets on that. I don't know what the they're saying.

Matt (41:14.394)
Yeah. Yeah, it's n I'll tell you right now, ninety eight percent chance that the the Democrats only have to flip two seats and there's twenty toss ups in the House, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Levi (41:22.403)
That's right, yeah. Yeah. So there's no way. I mean unless I don't know, we've been wrong before, but but I don't see that happening. So if he holds the Senate, no, I mean I don't think he's he's too old to change anything, right? He's just gonna be the same. Yeah.

Matt (41:29.059)
Not like this.

Matt (41:37.339)
Yeah.

Okay. Well on on that hopeful note, let's go to the big question. I was reading an Ether recently, and Ether chapter eight, verses twenty three to twenty five warns modern nations to stop secret combinations from taking over society. When people notice these corrupt conspiracies growing, the Lord commands them to wake up to the terrible danger they face, as these groups seek all seek to destroy personal freedom in every land and bring about total destruction.

Ultimately these organizations are inspired by the devil and they allow and allow them to rule will bring God's jud judgment and ruin upon the people. So my question is this I see evidence of secret combinations taking over American society today. What can we do to stop them?

shawn (42:27.346)
I mean, do you have to kind of give a little more clarity on what you mean by which like what what do you see? What are the secret combinations you see?

Matt (42:32.452)
You don't see when you read when you read Ether eight, twenty three to twenty five and it warns about secret combinations infiltrating the the governments of the world in the latter days, you don't look read that and say, Yeah, I definitely see this happening.

shawn (42:45.81)
I mean, I think we can safely say that the DNC teaches us that it it has always happened and will always happen, but are you saying that you see it more now?

Matt (42:53.296)
Well, in Ether, he Moroni tells us to fight against them and to stop them. He says that if we like in the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites, there was a period of time where they got rid of all the secret combinations and the Nephites didn't. And it had a really negative effect on Nephite society because they allowed the secret combinations to infiltrate their government. And so in this section of Ether, Moroni warns us as readers of the Book of Mormon not to let that happen to our government and not to let it happen where we live today. And so what can we do?

shawn (43:22.386)
I I mean am I am I just naive to say that I kind of have a lot of faith and hope in in our constitution and in the separation of powers and even though it'll never be perfect, I kind of is it naive to say no, I think I think we do a pretty good job at I mean like like like I look at like blatant gross corruption and I like I don't I don't know why, but I I'll never forget like seeing this like

Matt (43:32.293)
Yes.

Levi (43:34.431)
No. right.

Matt (43:37.05)
Are you serious? That's so naive. Y Sean

shawn (43:52.739)
News media fly by camera and it sees and it shows Mitt Romney talking to what was the guy that was got convicted. Trump pardoned him. What was the guy's name? The Republican guy. No, no, no. No. But but basically Mitt Mitt Romney was looking me in the face and says, You need to resign. Like you, you it's proven that's you're corrupt. It's proven that you've

Matt (44:03.438)
Rod Blogoevich? With so many people that fit that description.

Levi (44:03.554)
Blugojevich?

Levi (44:07.949)
Michael Flynn. Michael Flynn? Roger Stone.

Matt (44:17.37)
you're talking about the guy from New York, the member of the House from New York, who ended up leaving Congress. I mean. Okay. All right.

shawn (44:24.08)
Yeah, and went to jail and then Trump pardoned him. Anyway, my my point is it just it's you know, Anthony Wiener. like there's there's a lot of stories of of politicians kind of getting weaned out because the con secret combinations get exposed. I don't know, I feel like it's

Levi (44:26.679)
Anthony Wiener, no.

Matt (44:40.504)
No way. Okay, now I have to make the other side because Levi sort of agreed with you. Okay.

Levi (44:44.611)
Well but and but and let me say, don't you think that in the long arc of history, Matt, that Trump is extraordinarily corrupt, but

But in the long run, I think that we are a much less corrupt nation than we've been in the past, don't you think?

Matt (45:03.35)
No, I don't think that. I don't I think we're worse today than we've been in the past. Okay. I'm just gonna go take us back to January sixth, twenty twenty. There was a conspiracy to overthrow the election. And the conspiracy wasn't just Donald Trump. The conspiracy involved members of the Senate, and it involved members of the House of Representatives, and it involved members of state houses and state legislatures across the gu across the nation, in which people in Arizona

Levi (45:04.941)
Hm, okay.

Matt (45:30.928)
People in Georgia, I don't know if it was Nevada or not, said we're going to have an alternative slate of electors to the Electoral College. And they had the plan all laid out that they would go to Congress and co and the Congress would fail to certify the election. And then they would come in and they would say, Here are these alternative electors. And these people are the ones that should count. And we shouldn't count the ones that were elected by the state of Arizona. And the only reason that didn't work, Sean, only one reason that didn't work was because Mike Pence.

shawn (45:59.119)
Mike Pence.

Matt (46:00.689)
When they were out there saying, hang Mike Pence, Mike Pence said, I don't have the power to do that. I don't believe for a second that if it happened again, that JD Vance would stand up there and say, I don't have the power to do that. So it's not our constitution that saved us on January 6th. It's Mike Pence and the fact that he wasn't a part of the conspiracy and that he wasn't a part of the group trying to overthrow the government. But if he had been, there's nothing in our system that could have saved us on that day.

shawn (46:30.822)
There's nothing in the system that would have backed up

Matt (46:33.626)
What are you supposed to do? If Congress refuses to certify the election, which the Constitution gives them the authority to do that, and then even if people object and say you don't get to have that alternative slate of electors, guess where the election to president goes to, according to the Constitution? To the House of Representatives. The Republicans would have voted for Trump. I mean, I like to think that they wouldn't have, but there were enough of them on board with the conspiracy that they probably would have. And would the courts have stepped in and said,

We're not gonna let this happen. It seems dubious to me. Like, I don't I don't believe

shawn (47:06.898)
See, I disagree. I think I I I I I believe that that

I know you'll think this crazy, but the House would have done the right thing. I think the the Supreme Court would have done the right thing. I have totally faith that they would have. Even though Mike Pence was a hero and did the right thing, but even even the rhetoric around it, th it got nowhere. Like every every court shot down everything that was ever contended.

Matt (47:21.766)
Well

Levi (47:23.662)
Yeah.

Matt (47:32.9)
Your hope your hope that they would do your hope that they would do the right thing though rests on the belief that they're not part of the conspiracy. But if but

shawn (47:41.479)
Yeah, I don't think there I don't think there was so much of a conspiracy. I think it was a like Trump reacting to things and and taking a step and people going, well, what do we do? What do we do? I don't think there was this well planned conspiracy conspiracy. I think people were like, Well, Trump is saying this. I know that if I don't back up Trump, I I'm I'm at risk of losing my seat or whatever.

Matt (47:54.692)
No, we know that there was.

Levi (48:01.456)
Think there was a pretty good plan. I just don't think there were that many people involved, Matt. I think that you would have seen some, you know, like you probably would have peeled off whatever. Somebody from Montana would have said, you know what? No, let's not. You know, and in that house election, you would have gotten like Lisa Murkowski gets one vote out of fifty in that in that house elec in that house election. So you might no, sorry, she's the senator.

Matt (48:23.59)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (48:29.638)
She's a senator, right? One state, one vote in the House of Representatives.

Levi (48:31.047)
Whatever that guy's name is. Mm. Bedge, right? But so Alaska gets one vote out of fifty and we'd have had a vote that way in that election. And I suspect you would have peeled off enough, enough Republicans in that scenario that would have said, Yeah, I totally would have voted for Trump, but I'm not gonna let him steal it. I think you would have had I think you I think there are some more bulwarks that would have held.

Matt (48:35.706)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Matt (48:50.608)
Hm. I wish I had

shawn (48:51.249)
Yeah, I agree.

Matt (48:55.312)
I guess I guess the the fact that President Oaks speaks so regularly about the US Constitution and he talks about our duties as US citizens makes me think that he too shares some concerns that perhaps the constitutional system isn't as strong as we think it is and that it's fragile and

Levi (49:12.835)
Don't you think that means he has faith in the constitution? Don't you think he thinks he thinks Sean and I are right?

Matt (49:18.396)
Yeah, it just seems it seems wishful thinking to me to say He's like This is Dallin. Yeah, okay. Maybe maybe that's what saves us.

Levi (49:19.491)
Let's call him up.

shawn (49:20.988)
Ha ha.

Levi (49:26.383)
Sean, do you a good Dallin H. Oaks voice? You can go on.

shawn (49:33.17)
Wish I did. I could do Monson, but not Elks.

Levi (49:41.613)
Okay, so you think that he's you think that he's warning us that so let's talk about what a what a secret combination is. Does this have to involve murder?

Matt (49:50.744)
No. I don't think Astrofault.

Levi (49:52.496)
Okay, it doesn't have to involve murder, but it does have to involve people protecting people from punishment, right? That th this has to be like yeah the

shawn (49:52.786)
Okay, what is it then?

Matt (49:59.101)
Correct. A secret combination is

shawn (50:01.085)
Through an exchange through an exchange of either money or power.

Levi (50:06.199)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I th I when I read about the get ant and robbers, I sometimes think this is a warning about in group out group, that this is a warning about like that that their problem was because there's a certain morality to these secret combinations. You don't betray the other members of the secret combination. It's a loyalty thing. So you're like, look, these in people, they get to do whatever they want. Have you heard this saying that that the

Matt (50:07.343)
Yeah.

Levi (50:33.465)
Conservatism is the belief that there are some people, there's a certain group of people that laws should protect but not constrain, and a different group that laws should constrain and not protect. This is this is sometimes said about conservatives. Sorry, conservatives, this is how you're how we talk about you behind your back. But but true or not, right? This is what secret combinations are. Is they're like, okay, so this group.

shawn (50:45.074)
Yeah.

Matt (50:50.268)
I don't know that I would call that a conservative ideology.

shawn (50:52.898)
I don't think that's

Levi (51:00.867)
We're not going to let ourselves be constrained by laws and we're going to use laws to protect our s you know, use whatever we can to protect ourselves. So so maybe it doesn't maybe it has maybe it has to involve murder, maybe it doesn't, but it definitely has to involve a group that is insular and protects each other from from punishment, right?

shawn (51:20.658)
I just watched I just watched Godfather one and two again and I think that's what you're talking about here.

Levi (51:26.756)
Yeah.

Matt (51:27.014)
So secret combinations or the mafia? But I don't I

shawn (51:30.342)
Well, I liked I like Levi's definition. The people are protecting themselves to work outside the law. They're work protecting themselves to be able to skirt it all, right? that seems like a great example of a per of the of a secret combination.

Matt (51:41.146)
Yeah.

Matt (51:45.69)
So can we do anything to stop it?

Levi (51:50.276)
Well, but can we talk about one more thing first? So is corruption the same as a secret? Is corruption always a secret combination? Is that like I think there are people that are, you know, I mean, Trump puts it puts tariffs in place in order to extract bribes from foreign leaders. Is that a secret com I guess it's only a secret combination when he has other groups around him that are gonna protect him when he does something wrong, right?

Matt (51:59.109)
Yes.

Matt (52:11.675)
Yes.

Matt (52:15.492)
Support him. That's right. Right.

shawn (52:16.4)
Yeah.

Right. Unrighteous dominion seems more like what Trump does as opposed to secret commissions.

Matt (52:22.126)
S secret combinations would be all of the people who surround Trump that are doing what he wants h them to d to do because they get money, benefits, all of that other stuff by yeah.

Levi (52:26.479)
Yeah, yeah.

Levi (52:32.014)
Yeah, yeah.

shawn (52:33.98)
So Matt, so to further Levi's question, to define this even more, like, you know, all these politicians getting rich, like Nancy Pelosi, like I'm not picking on her 'cause she's Democrat, but she's a good example.

Levi (52:44.239)
But she's on my list. I was listing corrupt people. You know, I've been like, Yeah, Nancy Pelosi. Yeah.

shawn (52:49.328)
So is that secret combination, right? They've they've fixed the laws, not even so much in secret, to be able to enrich themselves.

Matt (52:57.766)
Sure. Yeah. I think that that's Well, no, in the Book of Mormon, they would see the effects of the secret combinations. They just didn't know who was in charge. They didn't know who was the boss. They didn't know how to stop it, right? They would see it happening. and at some point they said, We're gonna just build a wall and keep you out of our city. And then they figured out who was in the city secret combinations, right? Because they were all people outside of the wall. But we can't do anything like that to to shield ourselves from the secret combinations.

Levi (52:58.285)
Yeah, see, I would say that's not secret enough to be a secret combination. Go ahead, Matt.

shawn (53:00.75)
Yeah.

shawn (53:29.811)
Levi (53:31.225)
How did why didn't they infiltrate the inside of the wall? Why didn't the secret combinations come inside the wall?

shawn (53:36.945)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (53:37.592)
be because they would they would hide in the woods, right? And then they would come and attack people that were traveling city to city, and then they would take the stuff back to the to the forest or wherever they were hiding out. And so they they weren't able to get inside the city, and so then the they were like, Okay, we're just not gonna go outside of the city anymore and try and starve them out. Yeah, so they were f right, the city fortified.

Levi (53:41.134)
Yeah, yeah.

Levi (53:56.004)
Yeah, yeah. So, listeners, how do we starve out the secret combinations? Is there a way to yeah? Listeners can tell us. How do we starve them out, right?

shawn (54:02.642)
Think we need more

Matt (54:06.212)
I'll tell you what you do. You stop supporting anybody who's involved in the secret combination. And so if you even suspect them of being a a slightly corrupt, it doesn't matter if they say things you like them to say. It doesn't matter if they're giving you some kind of a benefit.

shawn (54:06.652)
Yeah.

Levi (54:08.193)
Matt, you got it.

Levi (54:11.855)
Mm-hmm.

Levi (54:16.889)
Hm.

shawn (54:20.868)
Which part which party that but this goes against what so again, if but what if they belong to the party that I support and that party needs the body as a vote and we know they're gonna be loyal? Like that's the justification that most people give.

Matt (54:32.332)
Vo That's how c that's how secret combinations stay in power, right? Secret combinations stay in power by giving bribes, benefits, selective incentives to all of the people who support them. And so anything you do that even just a little bit provides benefit to the secret combination, then you're just enabling them. So you have to starve them out. Like whatever whatever it is that the resources that they're consuming, you have to cut them off from those resources and you have to say,

I'm not supporting you. But everybody has to do it, right? It has to be like a a group effort. I just I just heard this story recently. There's a woman, Levi will probably know her name. She was in Liberia in 2013, I think it was. She won the Nobel Peace Prize because there was civil war in Liberia, and and she decided we're gonna put an end to it. And so she was Christian, just an ordinary woman.

Levi (55:07.406)
Yeah.

Matt (55:27.898)
And the women in the k in the country said, We're going to put an end to this. And do you know they just there were a number of things they did. They got together and they would pray regularly. But do you know what they also did? They said, We are not having sex with our husbands until the war is over. And their strategy of denying sex to their husbands until the war was over led to a peaceful resolution to the civil war in Liberia because they said, These men want this from us.

shawn (55:51.41)
What?

Matt (55:55.865)
And we can deny them that and then that's gonna have some effect on their behavior. And it wasn't the only thing they did, but it was a s a a considerable part of their strategy to bring peace. And so I mean, I just think people can do more than they think they can do, right? Like whatever it is that you're that you're offering people that is allowing them to do bad things, stop offering it to them and say, start being a good person or you're not getting this from me anymore. And it'll change people's behavior.

Levi (56:26.541)
This is fantastic. I'm so sad that I haven't heard about this before. Her name is Lema Roberta.

Matt (56:32.134)
Goby. Yeah. Bowie. Yeah. The the G is silent, yeah.

Levi (56:35.747)
G Bowie. Is it just pronounced Bowie? That's fantastic.

shawn (56:41.244)
Do you do you recommend this strategy that you've learned by Mrs. Bowie at a l at a small at a lower

Matt (56:45.604)
I I don't think men will be very good at it. I think if men

Levi (56:48.131)
Yeah, next time I want something from my wife, I'm just cutting her off. There's no way. Babe? No.

Matt (56:55.356)
Yeah, I think I think as a general strategy, women are more powerful in that regard than men are. Men are like, No. Yeah.

shawn (57:00.924)
Ha ha ha.

Levi (57:03.127)
I don't know. Maybe you're not as sexy as me, Matt. I think maybe

Matt (57:05.628)
Yeah. my historian friends tell me that it was a technique in the Peloponnesian War. There's a a a a play written about the Peloponnesian Wars, and then they do this in that play. And so the idea has been around for a long time, but they implemented it in Liberia and it worked.

Levi (57:25.785)
There was there's this has another name in like Korea. It's the something four. shoot. Must be the fantastic four.

Matt (57:33.242)
The fantastic four.

Ha ha.

Levi (57:39.248)
4B, the 4B movement. In it says radical South Korean feminists' proponents do not date, marry, or have sex with men, or have children with men. Period. They're like, I don't know what their demands are, but they're like, we're not gonna do this for a while. Because they think there's too much mis too much misogyny in South Korea. The patriarchy.

Matt (57:42.945)
okay.

Matt (57:57.325)
Hm.

shawn (57:57.862)
Period with no

Matt (58:02.576)
The patriarchy. The patriarchy is oppressive. I wish I wish I had better answers, right? As a political scientist, I should have better answers of like what you can do to solve these problems. I don't have better answers because there's not an answer. But there does have to be a commitment to putting an end to it. And I I sometimes I worry that as a society, we don't have enough commitment to put an end to that. We're really worried about pornography. We're really worried about abortion. We're really worried about transgender rights.

shawn (58:05.405)
Matt (58:29.486)
And I don't see anything in the scripture that warns us about that in the latter days. But I do see scriptural warnings about secret combinations. And we just seem to be sort of like, ho hum, not that big a deal. And I think maybe we should worry a little bit more about it.

shawn (58:42.588)
Great. That's a great that's a great message, Matt. That's a really, really Latter day Lens style message. And maybe maybe did just like I don't know, celebrate the system working so that like let's praise Mike Pence. Good job, dude. You were a guardrail that that right? That I mean, I think we'll look back on him as a hero. I mean, but but only be in in that he he did follow the constitutional principles, right? And he had integrity.

Levi (58:56.783)
Good job, Mike Pence.

Matt (59:10.203)
He he gave up his political career, right? If he hadn't done that, he would be in JD Vance's spot today. and yeah. So yeah, I appreciate anybody who puts principle above party. And yeah, we need more of that. Okay, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us this week. We will talk to you again next week. Have a great day, everybody.