Matt (00:00.641)
Welcome everybody to the Latter Day Lens. We are so glad to have you with us this week. I'm your host, Matt. With me as always is Sean. And probably for the last time ever we have Melanie with us today. Thank you, Melanie, for joining us in the twilight of the podcast. You always bring joy to our souls.

shawn (00:12.111)
Melanie (00:19.97)
When you say it this way I feel sad. yeah.

Matt (00:22.702)
Really?

Well, maybe we'll have you on before we end, but it seems unlikely. I reached out to Levi, I reached out to Mark. Like we're just down to a few more episodes before we we slam the door closed, so

shawn (00:27.955)
Ha

Melanie (00:29.006)
Midterms are coming up.

shawn (00:41.075)
But Matt, the next thing that we're possibly doing, I know you're not teasing that, but Melanie could definitely do some things there, which would be fascinating to to hear.

Matt (00:50.487)
Yeah, and when I told Mark what we're gonna do next, he was like, I'm way more passionate about that than well than the latter day lens. So we'll see. Sean and I are still figuring out what the next looks like, but it won't be this. but yeah. Thanks for being with us. We're glad to have you with us this week. there a lot of people wrote into the mailbag helping to correct some things we said about the left and right. Like Sean was basically right about the left and right that it started with.

shawn (00:56.954)
So

Matt (01:19.983)
France and the revolution. But there were some details that we didn't include. So I'm confident listener. If you care where the terms left and right came from as it relates to the French Revolution, you can Google it and you'll find the answers super quickly. Cause a lot of our listeners did.

Melanie (01:31.918)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (01:36.071)
I like Melanie, I like that in the beginning of what he was talking about, he was basically saying, I don't get like I'm impressed by Sean and non educated, non academic, knew something that I didn't know, but then at the at the end he's like, Yeah, just Google it. That's n doesn't take any skill. So I felt praised and then slapped in the face.

Melanie (01:52.32)
Yeah.

Matt (01:52.867)
Well the

Well, there were like some details about it, right? It was like something about where the king sat and like who was on the left and who was on the right. Yeah, so yeah. And then also people wrote in to say they enjoyed that article about conspiracy theories, where the beliefs come from. So again, you can check out the show notes and find out all you ever wanted to know about where why people believe conspiracy theories and how it's like a a psychological coping mechanism. that's all you get from the mailbag, because I'm I'm not gonna read any of the other stuff. Okay.

So here's our first topic this week. Researchers surveyed more than 50,000 Americans, and they found that fans of the same sports teams often have different political beliefs. When people learned that a political opponent supported the same team, they felt warmer towards that person, saw them as more similar to themselves, and became more willing to talk with them. Sports cannot solve every political problem or make people agree about laws.

Melanie (02:25.972)
Yeah.

Matt (02:53.4)
But sharing a favorite team can help people remember that their political opponents are still human beings with common interests. So here's the question. Are sports good for society? Do professional sports have the capacity to help heal political divisions in America?

shawn (03:10.194)
Kind of two separate questions. Melanie and I on the same page. Good job, Melanie.

Melanie (03:10.485)
I think those are two different questions.

Matt (03:12.398)
Yeah, they're different questions. Yeah. Yeah, they're different. But that's okay. You guys can go wherever you want to go with those two questions.

shawn (03:18.96)
Okay, Melanie, you you're you speak up. You tell me which one you want to go with.

Melanie (03:23.447)
See, I think like I can see how sports can help heal divisions in society. I think that's a great idea. I think it's good for people to have common shared identities that they can build on. But I think the first question is all about are the benefits of having a shared identity and building empathy through that enough to outweigh the potential costs of professional sports.

Matt (03:46.592)
Mm-hmm. And you're gonna say perhaps no.

Melanie (03:49.677)
I'm gonna say I've heard a lot of stories about the BYU Utah football games, and they aren't always pretty.

Matt (03:55.751)
that's true. That sports can cause division where otherwise there wouldn't be division in society. That's true. Ohio State, Michigan isn't a good example. Yeah. That's true. What do you say, Sean?

shawn (04:08.092)
I'm gonna say I think it's a it's kind of a weak case study to say I make friends with people that I find things in common with, right? The whole point of Latter day Lens is to signal to people that it's okay that you can have differences of opinion. The skill, the the real societal like talent is to learn how to bond with people for more foundational reasons, other than I like your sports teen, I like your political group. It's a pretty weak foundation.

to establish that on. So sports are awesome for various and and different reasons. I don't think it's anywhere close to being the answer to how to solve divisions. It's not the answer.

Matt (04:48.642)
Yeah, I'm gonna build off that, Sean, because I say that sports is like one of Satan's counterfeits. It's like, yeah, God wants us to identify as children of God, and that identity should unify all of us, right? But it's not sufficient because we want to create divisions and we want to create us versus them, right? Child of the covenant is another identity. And

shawn (04:54.598)
No.

Matt (05:14.38)
And I I know like the way that sports unifies people. I feel that in my life. I've been a Miami Dolphins fan my entire life. Anywhere I go, if I see Miami Dolphins, it makes me happy inside. It makes me feel warmer towards whatever that thing is. it's a nice icebreaker thing to talk with people about. But it's all there's a word for this in Russian, Chipucha, or another word is Yerunda. And last Sunday I was talking to my friends from Ukraine and I said, Hey, what do those words mean? And they're like,

shawn (05:35.889)
Melanie (05:36.192)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (05:44.291)
The more academic way to say that would be not serious. And I'm like, that's right. It's not serious. The bonds that you build through sports are not serious. And if they are serious, you need to take a look at your life and be like, why is there so much meaning for and again, I'm a huge sports fan, but why is there so much meaning for me in this shared identity with another person because we cheer for the same team?

shawn (05:57.767)
Ha ha ha bingo.

shawn (06:11.218)
I have the answer to that.

Matt (06:11.33)
Like the things that really matter are deeper than that. And so I think that this is a counterfeit of Satan.

shawn (06:16.432)
I th that I think the answer, Moses one, I think answers that. Moses one is where God and Moses see each other face to face and they have this big long discussion. And throughout that discussion, God continually addresses Moses with a s a specific kn like moniker. Continually, like three or four times, he says, Hey Moses, my son. Hey Moses, my son, throughout the conversation, Moses, my son. And then when God leaves and Moses falls to the ground, comes back up and Satan comes to him.

First thing Satan goes is, Hey, Moses, son of man. Like he attacks his identity, but because Moses went, wait a minute, I'm not a son of man, I'm a son of God. And where's your glory? He had glory. It's it I agree with you, Matt. Like establishing identity in anything other than the foundational I'm a son or daughter of God, I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, becomes a weak foundational identity. And you're right, your Miami Dolphins identity is not only weak because it's a weak team.

Melanie (07:13.046)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (07:13.054)
Hey. That's why I love them so much. The colors and the mascot.

shawn (07:13.446)
That has terrible colors and a terrible mascot. But it's weak but it's a weak it's a weak identity, Matt, because i it goes it's it's an identity built on the arm of flesh.

Melanie (07:17.325)
Okay.

Melanie (07:26.701)
I think I want to push back a little bit. Because my dad was describing this as one of Satan's counterfeits. And I would argue that it doesn't necessarily have to be a counterfeit. It could be a stepping stone. Because we live in a world where, unfortunately, not everybody knows that they are a child of God. And not everybody is a child of the covenant. So they can't necessarily rally around those identities. And we read in Alma crud, I'm forgetting. It's Alma 29, right?

shawn (07:28.63)
good, okay.

Matt (07:28.737)
Okay.

Matt (07:33.379)
Yes.

shawn (07:50.993)
Whoa.

Melanie (07:56.684)
Where Alma rejoices in the success of his brethren. And that's like an awesome, amazing thing. Maybe it's Alma, I can't remember. Those two run together. No, it's either twenty six or twenty nine.

Matt (08:04.8)
Alma seven.

Matt (08:08.836)
Ammon, not Alma. Alma tw Alma twenty six. Yeah. Yeah, Ammon's rejoicing of all the people that got baptized.

Melanie (08:10.269)
Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But there's like

Yeah. But there's this motif that like, I can be happy because my brethren and people I care about are succeeding. And I think in the sports community, there's space for people to get together and rally around joy in the success of those they care about. And I think that can be an incredibly powerful and divine unifying force. So I'd argue enmity between teams, enmity can be of the devil.

Matt (08:35.02)
Okay.

shawn (08:39.452)
Wow. That's good, Melanie.

Matt (08:40.44)
But here's what makes

Yes, yes, yes.

shawn (08:45.379)
Melanie, before Matt

Melanie (08:45.633)
But I think the communal identity could be of God.

shawn (08:49.488)
Before Matt brings in his big butt, I'm going to praise you and say that was awesome.

Melanie (08:52.269)
Thank you, thank you.

Matt (08:55.04)
Everybody has a big butt. I learned from Pee-Wee Herman. This is the thing, Melanie. Satan's counterfeits, you can identify them because they don't lead to Christ, right? And so the fact that the same thing that causes unity and happiness can also lead to anger and contention and bad behavior. That's how you know it's not of God. Because if it was of God, it wouldn't lead to those bad things.

Melanie (09:24.805)
I'm thinking of the an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit and a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, right? And sports bring forth both.

Matt (09:30.914)
Well, that yeah, that's a good verse.

Matt (09:35.935)
But maybe the good fruit isn't actually good because it's a counterfeit fruit, right? It tastes good. It's like it's like a junk food kind of a tree or something like that, right? It tastes good, it makes you feel good, but it also brings in all this bad stuff. So then ultimately it's bad. Now I know that people would push back and say religion does the same thing, but in its pure form, the gospel of Jesus Christ never divides people. And you go to church and you see people very different than you and you're united.

shawn (09:35.986)
Mm.

Matt (10:05.002)
under this common umbrella, disciple of Christ, and all that other stuff goes away. And I think that that's the way that God intends it to be. And I think all the other things are I'm gonna say bad for society. Sean who bonds over like music groups and rock bands with people. And Melanie who bonds over I don't know what do you like, Melanie? Pokemon Yeah. Movies, that's right. You do love movies. Yeah.

Melanie (10:26.733)
in phases. Movies?

shawn (10:32.188)
V's That's good one, good one.

Matt (10:34.304)
All that stuff is fake. It's not real. And it doesn't like in the end lead to good things.

shawn (10:40.754)
Wow. This this turned into a deep deep discussion.

Matt (10:41.492)
Yeah. I'll give I'll I'll give Melanie the points. You did a good job, Melanie. Those were that was point worthy, even though I think I'm right. You guys think I'm right, right?

Melanie (10:41.493)
Well

shawn (10:53.074)
Yeah, I'm on the fence.

Melanie (10:53.335)
Sure.

Matt (10:54.972)
okay.

Melanie (10:55.957)
I disagree with you still.

Matt (10:58.164)
Okay, but you'll give me the points. That's awesome. That feels so good. I really want to earn them. On this next question, you're gonna see I'm gonna really earn the points. All right, so here's the next question. So Canada is showing other middle powers how to survive in a dangerous world. President Donald Trump treats Canada like a weak country that depends completely on the United States. But Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney

Melanie (10:59.957)
Of course, you can have all my points, Dad.

shawn (11:02.94)
Wow. You just doubled your points, Matt. She gave me hers too.

Melanie (11:05.857)
Ha ha ha

shawn (11:12.124)
Good.

Matt (11:27.724)
Has refused to give in to American pressure and tariffs. Instead, Canada is making new trade agreements, reducing its dependence on the United States, increasing military spending, and considering buying military equipment from countries such as Sweden. Canada and other countries are also giving more support to Ukraine while the United States is providing less help. These reforms have made him more popular, even though such changes are often politically risky.

Other medium-sized countries could learn from Canada by cooperating with one another, strengthening their economies and defenses, and preparing for a future in which they cannot always depend on powerful countries such as the United States or China. So here's the question Would the countr would the world be better off if there were no more superpower countries? If every country were a middle power, would the entire world be a better place?

shawn (12:19.186)
So I think before we can answer that we have to do one fact check real quick because the the statement that Canada and other countries are giving more support to Ukraine than the United States, I don't think that's true.

Matt (12:29.346)
No, no. No, not more than so like recently, we'd say the last two weeks, the United States is decreasing its support for Ukraine, and European nations and Canada are increasing their support for Ukraine.

shawn (12:42.106)
It's a it's a relevant cr fact check because it does help answer the question, right? Like so l okay, so you're clarifying that Canada is giving a little more help than they have been, and United States is giving a little less, but the absolute just chasm of difference in amounts of help that are being given is still overwhelmingly United States is giving way more. So this goes to the question about middle powers.

big powers. So I I I I mean it would argue that y Yeah, go ahead.

Matt (13:13.378)
Yeah. Well, right. So right, the United States, because we have access to technology that no other country has, like we'll just say the Starlink satellites, because they were in the news recently, right? Or we have a a large say in sanctions on like Russian oil or Russian diesel or whatever, right? The fact that you have a superpower means that all the other countries in the world are very dependent on what that superpower nation.

says, right? So Zelensky as president of Ukraine has to care a lot about Trump's mood in a particular day because it matters a lot for the support he's getting. Whereas if there were no superpowers and now every country is just a middle power, then it doesn't matter what mood the president of the United States is in, because there's a lot of other countries that matter just as much.

shawn (13:51.664)
Yeah.

shawn (13:58.439)
S so I'm gonna be cons go ahead, Mani.

Melanie (13:59.616)
And suddenly Ukraine wouldn't need as much aid to be fighting Russia because Russia also wouldn't be a superpower.

Matt (14:07.212)
Right.

shawn (14:08.562)
I I'm gonna be consistent with what we've talked about in the past and I'm gonna say it is a huge mistake to view relationships defined by a paradigm of power imbalance. Big mistake. Yeah.

Matt (14:09.933)
Right.

Matt (14:22.701)
Really?

But power the whole world is about power, Sean. Who has more power, who has less power? Like everything in the world is about power. You're saying fine if you don't want to define interpersonal relationships as a power imbalance, even though like you can't ignore that. But relationships between countries, that is everything, right? The reason nobody cares what the president of Peru says is because the president of Peru has no power. And we care a lot about China, because China has a lot of power. Like

You can't ignore the fact that some countries are powerful and some are less powerful.

shawn (14:58.812)
That's what I'm saying. I agree that but by accepting that what are the various reasons of maybe look at it this way like, does the savior look at relationships, the power imbalance does he look at each of us through a power imbalance? Absolutely not. He sees us based on what we're willing to engage with him, right? How how we're willing to engage with him.

If he applied to us with the what you're suggesting here, that'd be a huge problem, wouldn't it?

Matt (15:33.512)
but he does go ahead, Melanie.

Melanie (15:33.869)
I think it's it's less a question of how we're interacting with the savior though, and how more how we should be interacting with each other. I think no one nation should have so much more money or weapons or whatever that another country depends on them as much as we depend on the saviour. I think more of yeah, go ahead, Dad.

Matt (15:53.945)
The reason. The reason the plan of salvation works, Sean, is the tremendous power imbalance between the God of the universe and who's his opposition? Satan? Satan has no power, right? Us, we have no power. God, there's a tremendous power imbalance between us and God. And so he sets the terms and says, you can follow me. And then what does he promise us? He promises us everything if we follow him. Or

We can choose not to follow him and you can get nothing. So th the whole everything is a power and balance.

shawn (16:24.694)
So I've I maybe didn't I maybe didn't I maybe didn't say it well, but I'm agreeing with you. We're you said better what I was trying to say. I agree. Like like the the the power imbalance is kind of it is the nature of things. And when you have a righteous superpower, that's a good thing. And when you have a

Matt (16:32.208)
okay.

Matt (16:45.134)
man. Sean Sean, you love personal liberty. How can you love the idea of a now you're sounding like me who wants like a a a righteous monarch to rule the world?

Melanie (16:52.725)
Yeah.

shawn (16:57.594)
did I?

shawn (17:01.122)
Melanie (17:03.529)
So Sean, how do you reconcile your righteous pa superpower with the idea that no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by dominion or authority, only by kindness and mercy and long suffering and all of that?

shawn (17:16.496)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a that's a great question. And I think there's an easy answer. The power that the United States has comes from a set of principles. It doesn't come from a person, it doesn't come from you know, maybe money I'm gonna get killed by saying this. Maybe it's not maybe it's not money, it's not it's not who you're born or where you're born. It comes from a set of principles that if we could apply equally and properly, w would

Matt (17:34.19)
Say it, Sean. Say it. Be

shawn (17:46.769)
That's the source of our our power. It's the principles. It's I agree with you. If if if it was a monarch like Matt wants so badly, then you risk the DNC. You risk it being unrighteous dominion. But it's not. It's a set of principles. It's the principles of liberty, it's principles of freedom, it's principles of equity, those types of things. Not perfectly applied, but at least the principles exist.

Melanie (18:11.113)
It's hard for me to see our dominion being anything other than like the largest military in the world.

Matt (18:11.171)
Well

Matt (18:18.018)
That's why I kind of set you guys up with the way I phrased the question. But I think that, and by the way, I've spent most of my life making fun of Canada. But Canada is showing us that that superpower status isn't what it appears to be, right? Now I understand Ukraine needs help because they're being attacked in a war. So, like, like setting aside the war question, right? Because we talk enough about war. Canada is showing us like as the if

The perception of the United States is Canada is weak. Canada is dependent on us. They need us more than we need them. And and we are so much more mighty than Canada is. If we cut them off, they have nowhere to go. And Canada is showing us like the true source of power and strength, right? Canada is showing us that it's persuasion, it's long suffering, it's kindness, and they're showing the world.

Like it's not about how big your military is and it's not about how big your GDP is. It's about are you willing to get together with people who view things the same way as you and work towards a common goal? And you can do it. And if if a superpower's against you, fine, leave them aside. You don't need them.

shawn (19:28.391)
Matt.

shawn (19:32.422)
Matt, if you removed the current fool of a president that we have, then you could say all the same things about America, couldn't you? The typical America has that viewpoint, has the Can Canadian viewpoint when it comes to dealing with other greater powers, lesser powers, medium powers. It's just our current president that is that is like like Melanie says, practicing unrighteous dominion in the most explicit way.

Matt (19:38.306)
That's right. So

Matt (19:49.048)
So I

Matt (19:56.271)
So I would say the last half of the 20th century, right? From end of Korean War till the year 2000, I would say that was the source of American greatness. Not just domestically, but internationally. America was great because America cared deeply about making the world a better place, not just focused on themselves, but focused on the world. And I won't I don't think it's just Trump. I think that the United States, since I don't know, the 2000s.

We've become much more self-centered, much more s like in internally focused, worried about ourselves and all that stuff. And and that most Americans today are not interested in trying to make the world a better place, trying to like make things better globally. When I talk to young people today, Republican, Democrat, it doesn't matter. All of them say, stay out of foreign affairs, stay out of other countries. We have no role on the international stage. And I'm like, well then

If that's the what we're gonna be, then we are not going to be a superpower, no matter how big our G D P is.

shawn (20:55.942)
Matt, I I I mean, Melanie, I like it when Matt blames your generation for all of our problems. I love it.

Melanie (21:02.132)
Yeah, I'm thinking now about like I tend to consider myself decently isolationist, but I think it's because all of the stories I've heard about America getting involved in foreign affairs have been colonialism and forced westernization. And like Afghanistan, Iraq, and I'm like, we should stay out of the Middle East maybe.

shawn (21:08.774)
Mm.

Matt (21:23.906)
We used to invest a lot of money in foreign aid, where we would just contribute to programs around the world. That's one of the first things that conservatives are like, let's get rid of foreign aid. That's a horrible waste of money. Right? We used to invest a lot of money in diplomacy in a State Department and having people go to other countries and live there and build relationships in other countries. We were cutting the State Department. It's not just a Trump thing. Like Trump obviously is more extreme than everybody else, but it's not like

Melanie (21:35.073)
Sure.

Matt (21:53.315)
Bush and Biden and Obama were like, hey, yeah, let's invest heavily in like aid and stuff. I mean, more than Trump, obviously, but regardless of what those presidents did, the American people are the ones saying, let's set that aside. That's not who we are anymore. Like, we could be such better neighbors to Mexico than we are. And we don't do anything as a country to say, like, let's be friends with our next door neighbor in Mexico and to Canada.

Melanie (22:13.806)
Yeah.

Matt (22:20.674)
We don't do a lot to say let's build that relationship. And so I think it's more of something inside of Americans and the way that we view the world now, more less th more that more that than it is who the president of the United States is and what their policies are.

Melanie (22:35.852)
I think don't blame my generation so hard for not knowing what America could be. But I agree we could be something better. Yeah.

Matt (22:42.798)
Because we didn't show them.

I mean, I blame Gen X for not doing anything. Like it's basically like boomers are gonna be in the president, they're gonna be in the White House until all those boomers are dead, and then they're gonna skip us and go right to the millennials. Like Gen X is the not me generation. That's my perception of politics. We're the not me, please somebody else generation. Well, I'm gonna give Melanie the points on that one.

Melanie (22:59.406)
Yeah.

shawn (23:04.508)
Wow. Mm.

shawn (23:09.202)
Point to melody.

Matt (23:10.914)
Good job, Melanie. I liked your I liked what you said, Sean, but still points to Melanie.

Melanie (23:12.099)
Thanks.

shawn (23:14.96)
Yeah. We're just sharing the points. That's amazing.

Melanie (23:14.978)
I'll give my points to Sean.

Matt (23:16.918)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Okay, so this one's a little bit longer of a question, but this is based on there was a little, it was in the New York Times an opinion piece. They surveyed 37 education researchers and academics. Now that's not a huge sample size, but presumably these people know what works in education. So they they asked them. I mean, I don't know.

Melanie (23:19.822)
Yeah.

shawn (23:41.33)
Presumably, okay.

Matt (23:45.965)
I don't know who the experts on education are, but I'm sure they tried to find it. It's mostly they didn't interview my wife. And so I questioned the sample. I'm like, my wife knows more about how to teach math than anybody on this planet. And they didn't ask her the question. But we'll assume that the 37 people they talk to are the people that know the most. And so these people rated 30 different reforms based on how much they would affect student achievement and then how much they cost. And and they interviewed people from there's like

shawn (23:53.553)
Ha ha

Melanie (23:54.006)
Amen.

shawn (23:57.127)
Yeah.

Matt (24:14.58)
left leaning organizations that like our think tanks about this stuff. And there are right-leaning organizations. So I could see in their sample, they did try to get people from left-leaning and right-leaning organizations, and they tried to get just professors, scholars. So here's what is the most effective at helping students learn. So number one, small group tutoring students who are behind get frequent tutoring beh during the school day in small groups. This is easily the most effective thing to do.

science of reading, which is where you teach people how to read science things. You use not just how to read science, but you use scientifically proven methods of reading, like phonics and then other sorts of things. Reading comprehension, vocabulary, also really, really important. Universal pre-K, meaning you start kids in school before kindergarten. they say more funding per student, higher pay for teachers in high poverty schools.

And high quality curriculum mixed with accountability. So here's a question. All of these require more money being put into public schools and perhaps redirecting money from important things like extracurricular activities. President Nelson said that education is a religious responsibility. So the question is this: Does society have a religious obligation to focus education on things proven to improve learning?

Melanie (25:40.737)
Yes.

Matt (25:43.052)
Well done, Melanie. Tell me why. Tell me why it's a religious obligation.

Melanie (25:46.221)
Well, President Nelson said it's important to learn things. But also I think the purpose of this life is to become like God. And I cannot imagine a God who is ignorant. We're taught that the glory of God is intelligence. We're told that whatever principle of intelligence we attain to in this life will rise with us in the resurrection. And so I think perhaps there is too much of a focus in our society on academic learning. You could make a case there that I would listen to.

shawn (25:53.446)
Ha ha ha.

Melanie (26:18.56)
But I think that it is important that we spend our days and times our days and our time becoming the best, most informed versions of ourselves we can be. And if we are not investing money into having that happen in schools, then we are failing the next generation.

Matt (26:36.812)
Man, that's good, Melanie. Sean, you go, I've got this scripture I I I've got to look up this scripture, Sean. So while I'm looking it up, you go.

shawn (26:37.447)
Mm. Very good.

Melanie (26:39.35)
I believe this very strongly.

shawn (26:44.306)
Okay. Yeah, I mean, clearly scriptures teach us that God gives some people the gift of teaching. The the problem with your premise here, Matt, is again it's a solution. It's putting you're not gonna like this, but it's it's putting trust in the arm of the flesh. You're trying to solve teaching through big industrial or big big organizations, big institutions that are sometimes profit driven, sometimes clo

claim to be altruistic. you know, you're you're dealing with a hu when you when you when you give education over to a giant institution like a government institution, there's too many different motives. There's too many different mechanisms that make it ineffective. So is it a religious obligation for us to teach each other? Yeah, absolutely. In most effective ways, yeah, absolutely. Is government institution the answer to that? Absolutely not.

Matt (27:38.061)
Okay.

Melanie (27:38.2)
Can I push back a tiny bit just on that thought?

shawn (27:40.038)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (27:40.864)
You can push back even as much as you want, Melanie. However much you want to push, push just that much.

shawn (27:45.831)
Mm-hmm.

Melanie (27:46.039)
So some of you may know that I'm a physics major. And as a physics major, I meet a lot of dudes who are also physics majors. And I have met like, I can't say a ton because there aren't a ton of physics majors, but I've met at least two men who are physics majors right now, who have told me that their like dream would be to teach high school physics. But they can't do that because they want to have and support a family.

and you can't support a family with as many children as they want to have on your standard teacher's salary. And I think that's like they may have the gift of teaching, but we're never gonna find out if they do, because there isn't enough money in the field.

shawn (28:25.99)
But that is because the system has failed. Now, if the system wasn't in the way, your friend would feel empowered to say, I'm a good teacher. I'm going to be innovative. I don't need some paper or some system to teach physics. I'm going to go out and innovate. I'm going to go out and teach the masses. I'm going to find out a way to do that. But instead, his society tells him, Nope, there's only one way for you to be a good physics teacher, and that is to go through our one broken system.

Matt (28:54.584)
Well, that's that's the system that tries to educate everybody. That's the system that says everybody deserves an education.

shawn (29:00.464)
Y Yeah, but but again, that system, that bloated, ineffective system, is going to make sure that that guy doesn't teach anyone. But if he in an entrepreneurial way goes out and says there's other I don't have to live within that system, he's gonna teach at least twenty people, Matt, or a thousand people.

Matt (29:16.93)
Nobody nobody's gonna pay him money to do that, to teach physics. Okay. Here's my verse. It's it's Mormon chapter eight, starting in thirty-five. Jesus says, Behold, I speak unto you as if you were present, and yet ye are not. Mor Moroni says this. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing. And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts, and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts unto the wearing of very fine apparel.

shawn (29:19.856)
Yeah, no no that's not true. That's not true at all. You're dead wrong.

Matt (29:46.455)
Unto envying and strifes and malice and persecutions and all manner of iniquity. Then he says in verse thirty-seven, For behold, ye do love money and your substance and your fine apparel and the adorning of your churches more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. So this is what I'm gonna say, Sean. I read today that so far the United States has spent two trillion dollars more than what we brought in in taxes, and we brought in six trillion dollars in taxes.

shawn (30:03.196)
Okay.

Matt (30:16.002)
So I'm saying we spent so far this year eight trillion dollars. Give me one trillion of that. Give me two trillion of that. I just need, like, as a nation, we're spending so much money on things that are so much less important than education. Give me two trillion dollars and I will fix your bloated broken system.

shawn (30:24.567)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (30:35.218)
Okay.

shawn (30:39.398)
You're okay, you are proving my point. The you are acting as the institute. Let me be a part of the institution. Give me that money so the institution is over. So me and my wife went dancing last weekend. And as we drove, we literally, this dance is at a a city library. It's called the San Diego Central City Library. that's cool. They have a live jazz band there. We're gonna go dance. That's fun. We get downtown, we pull into the free parking, we look at this building, Matt.

This is the most impressive, spacious, and giant, amazing building that I have ever seen in my life. We get in there and the the the money spent on this stupid library, this dumb public library. Okay, I apologize, Melanie. I love libraries. But someone in the institution made the decision to spend so much more money on this library as opposed to sending spending it on education or on the homeless or on

Melanie (31:17.176)
Okay.

shawn (31:32.986)
A milli the roads, a million other things that it could have been s could have been spent on. And it it it was

Melanie (31:37.206)
Investing in libraries is investing in education in the homeless.

shawn (31:41.169)
Not the way that this library was built, Melanie. This was a luxury, absolutely over-the-top library. Like, I agree, libraries are good. We should have libraries. But Melanie, if you had seen this library and the amount of money that was put in there instead of going into Matt's education program or something else, is a symptom, it's an evidence that government institutions waste money, spend money poorly, make bad decisions.

Matt (32:06.924)
Not every government decision is a bad decision, Sean. Some government decisions are actually like people can spend their money well. So this I looked this up. The US military budget in 2025 was $919 billion, right? Not even quite a trillion. Medicare spending, just health insurance for old people, $1.2 trillion. Right? I'm just saying our kids' education is worth more than both of those programs. So fund

Melanie (32:35.468)
Really? More than Medicare.

Matt (32:36.727)
Of course.

I I have to be sensitive. I shouldn't be young. Medicare is investing in people who don't have a lot of time left to live. Like, like, I love our old people. I want them to live as long as they can, but how many billions of dollars should we spend extending somebody's life five years, 10 years, versus shaping the quality of life for a young person for the rest of their lives? Like

shawn (32:48.754)
Wow.

Matt (33:07.144)
Investing in young people and teaching them the thing the skills they need to learn to be successful in life pays dividends long into the future compared to healthcare for old people. You can't even qualify for Medicare till you're 65, right? So life expectancy in the US is what, in the mid-70s, something like that. So to say we're gonna spend way more money on health insurance for old people than we are gonna spend on education for young people, to me is like, no, that's not a wise way to spend your money. So

I I love you old people. I think you're great. But do you know what we could do instead of spending all that money on health insurance for you? Because guess who makes all the money on Medicare? it's either the fraud I've read about in Minnesota or it's doctors, right? That healthcare system. I don't see any like starving doctors out there, starving healthcare workers out there that that are just scraping by. So we could reform that system perhaps a little bit and put that money into education. But I'm just telling you, Sean.

shawn (33:53.02)
Yeah, all the oven.

Matt (34:04.478)
If I were to give you a trillion dollars, whether you're in the government or you're in the private sector and I were to say, Here's a trillion dollars, can you fix education? You would fix education. Would

shawn (34:13.104)
Yeah, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, Matt. I I I of course agree that putting more money into education, if done right, is the right way. It's just the it's the big question is how do I how do I trust the people that make the decision? And I'm in California, so I'm tainted a little bit, you know, to spend so much money on a simple bathroom or to spend all this money on this elaborate luxury library. I just it's hard for me to trust the institutional powers that be to do it right.

Matt (34:41.39)
Well the question was, we should should we put it in the things that we know work? So maybe we have to cut back on facilities. Maybe we have to cut back on extracurricular activities. But if we know that these things work, why not just invest in the things that we know that they work and then see how that goes for a while?

shawn (34:59.398)
See, but you didn't but you didn't like Doge. You complain all the time against Doge. Doge was trying to do that. Hey, let's go s cut the fat. Let's eliminate so many things so that there's the money can be actually placed in the good things. You don't like that. You don't mean that.

Matt (35:05.291)
No.

Melanie (35:06.134)
Mm.

Melanie (35:11.65)
But did Doge do any research into what was actually working before they cut it?

Matt (35:11.927)
Right.

shawn (35:15.718)
Well, whether they did a good job or not is not the point. The point is the principal there y you complain about, Matt. Like I'd be will

Matt (35:15.776)
Right. I didn't

Matt (35:23.03)
I said I only I didn't complain about the principle of Doge. I only complained about the practice of Doge. The principle of Doge, every single president from Jimmy Carter to Donald Trump has come into office with the principle of Doge. And they've all done it in their own way. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work. George W. Bush, his was pretty good. Bill Clinton's reinventing government was pretty good. Doge was probably the worst we've ever seen of any of those approaches. So

Melanie (35:27.245)
Yeah.

shawn (35:49.262)
Okay. Okay. That's good to know. I didn't know that. That's good to know.

Matt (35:52.353)
I'm fine with coming in and cutting spending. Every president wants to come in and cut spending. I wasn't a fan of how Doge did it. And I don't think that replacing people with AI is gonna make for a more efficient, more effective, more transparent government.

shawn (35:58.918)
Okay.

shawn (36:05.04)
Well, just show me a more concrete proposal of what's gonna get cut and and how much is gonna be moved into these initiatives for education. I'll I'll I'll I'll support that.

Matt (36:14.624)
Every every teacher's starting salary is a hundred thousand a year. That would be point number one. A hundred K starting salary. That's point number s then I get the best and brightest teaching public schools. Then

shawn (36:19.772)
Wow.

Melanie (36:28.206)
Can we implement a system where kids can actually fail classes?

Matt (36:32.706)
Well, so then once I have the salary so that I'm getting the best and brightest, then I have some real teeth in like what we're gonna do in this school. And if you wanna keep your job, this is what you've got to do. And these are the outcomes we need to see. So that was that was number two or number three, right? The accountability thing. no, that's actually number five. You know kids will start school sooner. Universal pre-K. We know that that works. You're gonna have to put a lot of money into that. And then small group tutoring, like.

All of the students that hope to become teachers someday, we do this in medicine, right? They have residence, right? You have to go work in a hospital for lots of hours for no money at all in your residency so that someday you can become a licensed doctor. You could do the same thing. Everybody that wants to be a teacher someday, you have to participate in these like internships where you help out with small group tutoring. That's the number one most effective thing. Like easy to set these systems up. As soon as you have the money, I'll get the best and brightest people. We'll have accountability, and we'll have a really good system that teaches students.

The way they deserve to be taught, not the way they're being taught now. Huh? I can see Sean's inspired.

shawn (37:35.996)
Points to point points to Matt. Yeah, points to Matt. It's it's I'm open minded to it, just

Matt (37:41.838)
Isn't it isn't it crazy to think that we have a budget of eight trillion dollars and one trillion of it is Medicare and one trillion of it is the military. Where's all the other trillions of dollars in the budget going?

shawn (37:58.747)
Libraries in San Diego.

Matt (37:59.043)
Social sec No. It's interest on the debt. A third of the budget is interest on the debt. Three trillion dollars a year we spend in interest on the debt. Yeah, that's right. You're welcome, Melanie. We blame you for our problems and then we pass on to you. Good luck having a

Melanie (38:00.502)
Ha ha ha.

god.

shawn (38:05.711)
yeah. That's so pathetic. Yeah. Just the interest. That's so pathetic, man.

Melanie (38:08.694)
that's just interest, not the actual debt.

shawn (38:19.761)
Ha ha ha.

Melanie (38:20.029)
I who are we even in debt to?

Matt (38:22.798)
Good luck with you. Why are we in debt? The Cold War, Melanie, the Reaganomics, the joy that we had.

shawn (38:27.012)
No, she said who she said who are we in debt to? Americ American people. yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Melanie (38:27.158)
Like who are we paying this interest to?

Matt (38:30.622)
treasury bonds. Yeah, there's US Treasury bonds people buy.

Melanie (38:34.998)
Like if we just cancelled it, what would happen?

shawn (38:37.818)
No.

Matt (38:38.732)
You don't even have to cancel it. You could actually just credit all of those accounts. We do this. The Treasury Department regularly just adds we put billions of dollars in the Argentinian economy just by putting money into their account. The Treasury Department could just pay off all of that stuff right now. I actually found out recently the Treasury Department had a slush fund of $200 billion that they could use to just sort of manipulate things and try and play around with interest rates and stuff like that. Anyhow.

You don't have to cancel the debt. We could just credit all their accounts and say you're all paid off, no more debt. And some economists say that would be bad for the US dollar. But it would be good for you guys, Melanie. I'll tell you this, Melanie. When you guys are voting for all these socialists of America, you're they're all focused on the wrong issues. The wrong issues. You gotta focus on getting rid of that debt. I tell my students this all the time in class.

Melanie (39:14.54)
Hmm. Who trusts economists?

shawn (39:16.578)
Yeah.

Melanie (39:26.936)
Yeah.

Matt (39:32.568)
Whenever they want to talk about issues, I'm like, do you realize that three trillion dollars every year goes to debt? Like, I don't care what you fight about. You could cut here, spend here. It's so minuscule compared to just interest on the debt. Like, why do we even talk about anything else? You guys are gonna spend your whole life just paying taxes to pay interest on the debt. It's a sorry, that wasn't part of the topic.

Melanie (39:55.689)
Ha ha ha

shawn (39:58.003)
But it's a passion topic, so we let you go. We let you monologue.

Matt (40:00.475)
All right, here's the big question. there's a a former sports guy, Pablo Torre. He likes to do these like in-depth. He he uncovered the Los Angeles Clippers, Kawhi Leonard Dill. he did this thing with Mother Jones. So they looked at this group, it's called Life Surge. They attract people with Christian music, religious messages, and famous speakers like Tim Tebow. But after the event,

Attendees are encouraged to pay thousands of dollars for additional classes, sometimes by borrowing money. Some customers and former employees say LifeSurge used Christian faith to make the sales seem trustworthy and to pressure people into buying quickly. The company's message is that earning more money allows people to help God's kingdom through donations and charity. However, some customers spent $13,000 to $20,000 on courses and later lost money or struggled with debt. So here's the big question.

How should companies mix faith and product promotion? Is it wrong to use faith to promote life coaching or self help programs?

I used to be a life coach. No, I was a business development coach. And my job was to sell coaching to people. I think we charged twelve hundred dollars for a six-week quarter. Let me once a week for six weeks, maybe something like that. And I'd get a big commission off of selling these coaching products to people. After a little while, it started feeling dirty to me that I was selling people like they could barely make.

shawn (41:34.784)
Yeah.

Matt (41:38.858)
ends meet and I'm like, you know what you need? You need me to coach you. Not me, my boss who knows even less about business than you. we're gonna coach you on like life and how to be successful. but I never mixed faith with that. So I wonder like, should you mix faith with life coaching?

Melanie (41:57.783)
My instinct is that faith and corp and profit seeking products should never go hand in hand.

Matt (42:05.74)
Would you call it priest craft?

Melanie (42:08.712)
you would, and I don't know if I'd disagree with you.

shawn (42:12.764)
Melanie, what would you say about people who try to make their living? You know, there's a lot of YouTube channels of people who like like rap what's her name? Rap rapple po Jasmine Rappelplay, yeah. Like she is all over the internet promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ and probably gets paid to do it. Is that cross the line?

Matt (42:22.968)
Jasmine Rappeli.

Matt (42:34.486)
Yeah, she probably gets paid she probably does like promos, right? Or product reviews or something like the product placement stuff for money.

Melanie (42:41.76)
I think that's wrong. And like this is a bit of a harsh stance because I know in other faiths and other traditions there are people who make their livings as preachers and and pastors, right? And I want to say if you want to devote your life to preaching the gospel and studying so that you are well equipped to be a good pastor, I think that's okay. But I think you should make enough money to live barely comfortably.

shawn (42:43.655)
Do ya?

Melanie (43:10.07)
And if you're investing in extra vehicles and a nice house and a boat, that's a sign you're doing something wrong.

Matt (43:10.307)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (43:16.856)
So I'm gonna tell you, Melanie, what I told Sean. Cause Sean was Sean, when Sean was like putting together his podcast, we talked a lot about this. And Sean's like, I don't feel comfortable charging money for this thing that I'm doing. And this is what I told Sean. The world that we live in, people decide the value of your product by the amount of money you charge for your product. So if you offer something to somebody for free, they think that it's worthless. They think that it's worth nothing at all. And if you're

Melanie (43:19.192)
Give it to charity.

Matt (43:45.167)
Creating content that's faith promoting, and you're not charging money enough to sustain that, that you can right, because it takes time to do that. So if you're not charging enough to do that, then people will say that message isn't worth anything. So, like in capitalist society, people decide the worth of something by the price you charge for that something. And so it's like, right, there's a pair of jeans that I can buy at Walmart for, I don't know, $15.

And there's another pair of jeans that has a certain label on it. And I'm gonna pay like $150 or some people pay a thousand dollars for a pair of jeans. Is it because it's that much better a pair of jeans? Well, people think it is and people will value it more because of the price tag that it sells for.

shawn (44:30.778)
Okay.

Melanie (44:30.914)
Then charge the money and find a way to give it back.

Matt (44:33.454)
shawn (44:33.828)
Mm, Melanie, Melanie, what if you and your husband figured out to some way to use physics to tell teach people by the gospel of Jesus Christ? And you write a book, and the result is, yeah, people are learning physics, but mostly they're coming to Christ. And you're like, the more people that read this book, the more people will come to Christ. Well, you you can't finish the book because you got full-time jobs. Like, is there not a a

justification at all in your mind of like, yeah, the if my intentions are to do good works and I will choose to do good works with my money, why not get paid to engage in faith promoting content?

Melanie (45:18.562)
I think the question is your intent.

Matt (45:18.754)
So

shawn (45:21.648)
Yeah.

Melanie (45:22.764)
I think your purpose shouldn't be like your purpose shouldn't be to get rich. And if you are getting rich, then I don't trust that your intents aren't getting corrupted a little bit. I don't trust myself.

shawn (45:26.886)
To get rich.

shawn (45:35.122)
Mm, interesting.

Matt (45:37.209)
So I have a son right now. I have a son right now who's living in Hawaii and he regularly tells us about all the fun that he's having in Hawaii. But the people he hangs out with don't live the gospel. They're not, they don't, they're obviously they're not members of the church, but they go to bars a lot and drink a lot. They do a lot of promiscuity sort of stuff. And, you know, he hangs out with them and he's a little bit in shock of the things they're doing. And my wife told him, I think yesterday, today, she's like, You should understand that.

The people you hang out with on a regular basis, you start becoming like them after a while. Now it's not a hundred percent true, but it is true that what you spend your time doing eventually is who you are as a person. And it can be very difficult to hang out with people that are doing sinful things all the time and not at some point to start doing that stuff yourself. And this is what I think about money and faith. Like it's very clear in the scriptures warnings about.

Priestcraft and what happens when you start to preach for money and start to try to become popular for money. And it's not saying I don't mean I don't think that that means that everybody who's doing that is a bad person, but what I'm saying is there's a tension there. There's a tension between preaching the gospel just to do good in the world and preaching the gospel or using faith to help you make money. And you can probably do both, but I think that it creates a, it makes it a it's just a difficult situation. And I

I don't think it's by chance that you hear all these stories about rich televangelists who are hypocrites and people who go on TV and say one thing and make lots of money and in their private lives are doing something different. I think it was Tammy Faye Baker or someone recently died, right? James James Baker. Anyhow, right? I don't I don't think it's a coincidence that that happens. I think it's very hard to live this life of wealth and luxury based on your preaching of the gospel.

shawn (47:21.862)
Jim. Yeah.

Matt (47:32.15)
And then to not have that somehow overwhelm you or or corrupt you in some way.

shawn (47:37.532)
But on the other hand, you don't see like all I want to do is do good. If my me like Melanie said, if my motives are I'm converted to Jesus Christ and I just want everyone to have it, you don't see that like, okay, I I think if that's my motive, then obviously the more money I can get from doing it, the more people I can reach. You think there's no way it's it's it's too corruptible.

Matt (47:57.507)
Yeah. No, I I just think it is hard to do. I just think it's a difficult thing to do. And so

shawn (48:01.882)
Yeah. So it's not wrong to mix them. It's just it's really the the the gate the the p what is it? The path is narrow? Straight and narrow, right?

Matt (48:11.842)
Mm-hmm. Well, I think so that's probably why Melanie said donate it, right? Give it away. If you if you just take what you need for operating costs and give the rest away, then you're being charitable. Then you're then it's not going to corrupt you because you're not you're not tempted by the love of money. It's not you never have to question, am I really doing this for money or am I really doing this because I love God? Because you're only getting enough to cover your costs.

Melanie (48:12.078)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (48:33.03)
But but Melanie said herself, she judges what you define as your costs, right? Some people want to drive a Lexus. Well, that's just my cost. It's just covering my overhead. Yeah, but why don't you drive a 2001 Toyota Corolla then? Right? It's it's it's a it's a slippery slope when we get judgmental about I'm not saying you're judgmental, Melanie. That didn't sound right. I'm not saying that. Okay. R right, like Matt said, just

Melanie (48:54.99)
No, I am, I am.

shawn (49:01.1)
do enough to cover your costs, your overhead, and then give the rest away for charity. But what if you live in a nice big house, you know, ten bedroom or four bedroom house? What if you live and you're both of you your husband and you have two cars? Two cars, Melanie? Do have your own laptop? What if you had more than one laptop?

Melanie (49:13.742)
I think that's when it becomes a matter of individual prayer though. I think ultimately we can't say for sure what's morally correct for any one person, but I think it's a dangerous slope and it's gotta be between you and God and you've gotta be really, really careful.

That's what I think.

shawn (49:34.311)
Who who's the guy? He's the one of the members of the 70 that started the EFYs, the FSYs. He teaches at BYU. Brad Wilcox. Like, like, I I have to, I have to maybe look at him and go, You built something. I don't know the whole story, but I'm pretty sure he's the one that started the FSY, FY thing. And like, I don't think he made any money out of, but he could have.

Matt (49:41.834)
Yeah, it's Brad Wilcox. He was in Young Men he's he's not a general authority anymore. He was in the young men's something.

shawn (50:01.181)
You know what I mean? Like he built something that definitely he could have become extremely wealthy off of. And it's and he didn't. I don't know how he he's a teacher, right? He's a professor.

Matt (50:09.836)
Yeah, he's a professor. Yeah, and then you've got the guy that did the seven habits of highly effective people, right? The clearly yeah, clearly made prof I mean, that's not the same as like selling church stuff. But there's like there are podcasters that are probably making lots of money off of YouTube. There's the outdoor boys guy, right? He probably made lots of money, but he wasn't selling faith. Maybe it's yeah, yeah, I don't know. Well, I think that we don't do points on the big question. Okay.

Melanie (50:10.285)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (50:16.594)
Stephen Covey.

shawn (50:30.246)
No.

shawn (50:36.912)
Yeah. No, we don't. We do we our our the the the the points are given to our our brains 'cause it's stimulating.

Melanie (50:44.28)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (50:44.474)
That's right. And in the end, we don't judge people with the big question. So if you felt like we were judging you, w we're not I know we mentioned specific people by name, but they're just examples of ideas. Like we're not calling anybody out.

Melanie (50:51.31)
Wait, we don't

shawn (51:00.666)
And and Melanie, I'm t I'm I'm I'm torn on it, right? Because I've got my other life, my other podcast, this mission stories thing. And it Melanie, it like I see how it grows. And I get messages from people saying how much it is a a positive thing for them and it helps them. It gets like like like 30 people on a mission. And I'm like, my goodness, Melanie, if I could just do this full time and create content nonstop, I could get 300 people on a mission. And I'm doing the work, right? So part of me is just like, it it's it's

Melanie (51:26.638)
I will

Matt (51:29.869)
Right.

shawn (51:30.522)
It's tough. That's a tough thing. But then I think of Melanie looking at me.

Matt (51:32.672)
And

Melanie (51:34.126)
Sean, if you choose to buy a second car, I'll forgive you.

shawn (51:38.748)
Thank you.

Matt (51:39.663)
Okay, Melanie gets the last word. That was great. Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you again next week.