Matt (00:00.842)
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Latter day Lens. I'm your host, Matt. With me as always is Shawn , and we're so happy to welcome Porter back. Welcome back, Porter. Did you know Porter is about to graduate from college? And so next time Porter joins us, he will be a college graduate. Do you know what's awesome about that, Porter? Yeah. Sean is not a college graduate, Porter. So we can you can be like,

Porter (00:09.421)
Thank you.

shawn (00:18.892)
Let's go.

Porter (00:19.032)
And the.

Porter (00:24.599)
Hahaha!

shawn (00:24.876)
Hehehehehe

Matt (00:28.576)
Ha ha, Sean's not a college graduate. Does that does that

Porter (00:31.203)
None will have to defer to me on all matters relating to higher education.

shawn (00:37.23)
I do feel like if Matt and some of you others had your way that would be reality right there. If you don't get a degree you got to defer to those who have it.

Matt (00:45.83)
Well.

Matt (00:49.096)
It's it's not like our dream. It's the way the world is. It's offensive to us when we walk into a room and you don't like bow down to us and say, holy, righteous, brilliant people.

Porter (00:52.054)
Hahaha

shawn (00:59.05)
I love it. I love it. Like whatever credentials some man gave you makes you feel like you're somebody. I like it. Not that you paid for that institution. You paid for that those credentials. Matt, what's the word that you need to be in order to be a self learner? You don't need others. You don't need an institution. Remember what it was? Go say it. Auto die auto didact. Auto didact.

Porter (01:07.551)
Yeah.

Matt (01:12.202)
We work hard.

Matt (01:20.06)
Malum in say Malum Malum prohibitem. yeah, yeah. I had the wrong word. I tried Sean.

shawn (01:27.381)
you

Matt (01:30.09)
Hey, we had a listener write in, and she's coming after Levi. But it's so it's a little bit long, listeners, but it's worth it. So here's what she says: she said, Hey guys, I love the podcast. In fact, it is my favorite podcast in the entire universe. I love it when Levi is a co-host with you, but I'm gonna chastise him right now. During your discussion about abortion in last week's episode, Levi said that Republicans want to give harsh lectures and demonize women.

shawn (01:44.46)
Yeah.

Matt (01:57.547)
And that they are only pretending to care about fetuses. This is a grossly inaccurate overgeneralization. It frustrates me that people think of the abortion debate as a dichotomous choice between women's rights and the right of a fetus to live. A woman can be both pro-choice for women and simultaneously believe that a fetus is a sacred life that needs to be protective. There is no definitive scientific conclusion on when life begins.

Neither side of the argument can make the claim that science is on their side, neither do the scriptures indicate when a spirit enters the body and becomes a living soul. Without clear direction, each individual has to make their own decision on whether or not a fetus is considered life. There are Republicans out there who want to protect women and value the individual right to agency and choice, but they have to weigh that desire against their belief that a fetus is in fact a sacred living being that needs to be protected.

Just as much as an infant or a young child. I appreciate Levi's depth of conviction, but I do think that it is important to remember that not all Republicans have a shared ethos or support the same policies. For those of us who believe strongly that the life of a fetus should be protected and are simultaneously sympathetic to the reasons why a woman might choose, might want, or need to terminate a pregnancy, the abortion topic is a distressing one that does not have any good solution.

I do support the idea of making birth control more available in order to reduce the number of abortions, but even that is not a perfect solution. Thanks for the wonderful discussion each week. Take that, Levi. Yeah. I would say this when it comes to birth control, I only say this because I teach college and so I hear too much about birth control, but it bothers me that birth control is another thing where it's largely on the woman. I understand that women don't have to take birth control.

shawn (03:33.518)
Wow, that was great.

Matt (03:52.225)
But most of the relationships I hear about where there's a birth control solution, it's the woman taking some pill that affects her hormones, that affects her chemicals in her body. And largely like when it comes to unwanted pregnancies, men are very hands off. And when we create policies, it's men telling women what they can and can't do. And so I'd say in all of this, I'm looking for solutions that put the onus on men to protect life and stop unwanted pregnancies more than putting it on women.

shawn (04:20.328)
Amen preach it Matt. Amen. That is so great. I love it

Matt (04:25.566)
Yeah. I actually I don't go ahead, Porter.

Porter (04:27.23)
Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree with you. I do think I do think the listener is right that Levi did make a mistake in in the same sort of mistake that that a lot of Republican lawmakers that he's criticizing are making because the reason it's a frustrating issue, like the listener was describing that

people make it out to be black and white, even though it's much more complicated is because members of Congress benefit tremendously from it being a very divisive issue. know, people like Democrats can say Republicans are demonizing women and that'll move voters to the polls. Republicans can say Democrats are killing babies and that'll move people to the polls. But

The Prophet says that on divisive issues we should seek to moderate and unify. And I appreciate this listener for doing that.

Matt (05:36.395)
I like it.

shawn (05:36.418)
Well said, well said. And I like that you, I like, I like that you, that you blame politicians and those that prop up politicians like political scientists for these types of errors.

Matt (05:38.964)
I'm sure when Levi comes back on the show, he'll go ahead, Sean.

Porter (05:50.885)
What are we doing now as political scientists?

Matt (05:53.686)
I don't

Yeah, I don't think we prop up politicians. We're critical of them.

Porter (05:59.46)
I think we should employ our political science and come up with a new label that people can use besides pro-life or pro-choice that dismantles the...

the the false dichotomy

Matt (06:16.66)
Well, I just say pro man or pro woman. How about that? I'm

shawn (06:16.76)
do it.

Porter (06:19.907)
You want me to run for Congress on the Pro-Man platform?

shawn (06:25.966)
you

Matt (06:25.968)
No, no. Pro-women. Pro-women platform. Yeah. Abortion is no longer the question. The question is, what do we do to men who cause unwanted pregnancies? That's a really simple question. And then there's lots of things I can think of.

shawn (06:38.04)
do like that. think that is so smart, Matt. Yeah, I love that.

Porter (06:40.908)
think there should be like penalties, like criminal penalties for men who cause unwanted pregnancies?

Matt (06:47.828)
I mean, there's a lot of ways you could go about it, but but my solution is if you're a man and there's an unwanted pregnancy, you give that woman child support for the rest of her life, whether or not she has the baby. And after a while men are gonna stop having unwanted pregnancies.

shawn (07:00.31)
Hahaha

Porter (07:04.766)
I think the problem of all these unwanted pregnancies might be more of a lack of foresight than a lack of incentives or disincentives.

Matt (07:14.323)
Sure.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. It could be a a foresight thing. I mean there's there's other things we could do, but I don't I don't necessarily want to go into like people get mad when I say force sterilization, right? But it's like after your your child support bills get big enough, then like snip snip, right? You can't have any more kids because you can't afford it anymore. There's ways to I just say this a man can impregnate a woman.

Porter (07:35.55)
You

Matt (07:46.579)
An unwanted pregnancy, a man can create far more unwanted pregnancies than a woman can. Because once a woman has one unwanted pregnancy, that lasts nine months unless she has an abortion, right? Whereas a man can go around impregnating lots of women in that time period, create lots of unwanted pregnancies. So I'm sure the listener is not grateful for where I took that discussion, but it was a good comment. Thank you, listener. All right, let's get up to the the

The f thought provoker this week. First up, we've got a large majority of Gen Z people, 79%, want a future career that focuses on helping others and making a positive difference in their communities. However, only about half of these, half of working Gen Z adults currently have a job that helps people, mostly because many worry that these roles pay too little or cause too much emotional stress.

Despite these financial and workplace worries, there's a study out there that shows that public engagement and helping others is actually an excellent way for to help a young person's mental health. Gen Zers who feel needed by their community are three to four times more likely to find a strong sense of meaning or purpose in life, which directly connects to much lower rates of anxiety and depression. We often talk about increases in mental health challenges among younger generations.

This report suggests that one cause is that people cannot do a job that provides meaning and earn a living wage at the same time. So here's the question. Has our society failed Gen Z by not creating a world in which they can earn a living wage at a job that improves society? I mean, that's an easy yes, right? We'll all this will be we'll all agree on this, right, Sean? Yes. We've let them down.

shawn (09:38.83)
to hear your defense. No, I'm not gonna agree with you because it's so funny. There's so many ironies and the topic. It's so funny. First of all, who are the who are the 20 % of Gen Z's who are gone? Okay, you can either have a career that helps people and improves your community. Or it can maybe go against your community and not help people and 20 % are going now what that like who are these guys? What are they opting for?

Porter (09:59.977)
I want a job that destroys my community.

Matt (10:00.342)
Ha ha ha.

shon, you need to meet more Gen Zers. There's a lot of them. Have you seen like Instagram, TikTok lately? There's a lot of Gen Zers out there making money, destroying their community, and they're quite pleased.

shawn (10:03.864)
exploits destroys

Porter (10:14.612)
I haven't, thinking about this topic, I struggle to think of any jobs that are even available to me that would not be beneficial to my community.

shawn (10:30.476)
Now Porter's got the right attitude, Matt. That's the right attitude. mean, let's, would you like, Matt, put your hand up. Put your hand up like this real quick, Matt. Put your hand up like this. Okay, now Matt, make it disappear and become invisible. Do it. Look, the invisible, now it's an introduction to the invisible hand. Let's talk about the invisible hand. Matt, the idea would be this.

Matt (10:31.03)
Matt (10:37.371)
I don't you think go ahead.

Porter (10:40.049)
ICE AGENT?

Matt (10:50.752)
That was easy. That was easy.

geez.

shawn (10:59.978)
If there's a career where I have the potential of earning something in exchange for something that I give, then there's someone out there who values it. So even the question of I want a career that builds my community or helps people. Capitalism is that you're not going to make money outside of, shake your head, outside of fraud, which won't.

you know, that's going to come to a nasty ending. That's not going to go for long, for very long. The invisible hand will destroy those jobs and it does. So I love Porter when you say, look, I look at all the jobs that are available to me. And in some sense, I'm assuming your mindset is that does create value for someone. Maybe not in the Professor Miles's mind, because that means I've got to be a public servant or I've got to give away everything I've got.

But in your mind, like Matt, do remember the day you don't remember me and you and Sam dark when we were just young kids fresh off the mission living in Provo, we were driving down the street one day we were talking about careers. And he looked at this big old billboard and he says, Dad, Sean, doesn't your dad do something like that? And I'm like, Yeah, he's like, why don't you do that for a career? Like, because it doesn't help anyone, man. And Sam preached to me, Matt, he's like, No, dude, that helps businesses grow. And when businesses grow, they help their employees, they help their families. He's like, Sean, I'm killed. I'm not kidding, man. That is a noble and altruistic.

a career there. And that honestly changed my whole mindset. I literally went in that career. So I think the issue Matt is that your Gen Zers aren't looking at creating value for true like, define what a job is that is actually like creating value for someone and building your community. Find that.

Porter (12:31.605)
Well...

Well...

Well, I have two things. One, good job, Sean. I think that's the closest you've come on the history of this podcast to correctly using Adam Smith's invisible hand analogy.

shawn (12:46.815)
no. That's how I always explain it.

Matt (12:47.157)
Ha ha.

Porter (12:51.368)
that when that that people can do things that are good for the market and the community without necessarily intending to. But anyway, the billboard analogy made me realize there are some things that may help the community, but so indirectly that it's you're not really going to feel fulfilled like that in a job. And I think sales is probably the biggest area.

Matt (13:18.303)
Yes.

Porter (13:20.027)
of the job market that has that problem. I've worked in sales before. I never at any point felt like, man, I'm resurfacing the community.

Matt (13:33.258)
Right.

shawn (13:33.496)
Maybe you just needed to change your attitude, that's all.

Porter (13:37.574)
I mean, perhaps, but...

Matt (13:37.757)
Yeah.

Matt (13:41.436)
Or or be worse at sales. Like if you're really good at sales, you're getting people to buy things that they don't need and can't afford. And so you could just be a bad salesperson.

shawn (13:48.322)
Why would you say that Matt? Matt.

Porter (13:50.69)
Yeah, like, I mean, I, when I worked as a banker, sales was sort of a part of my job, but I did feel better about that because it was more of a, you know, like educating people on what, what products were available that could help them. I didn't feel pressured. Like I wasn't earning commissions. I wasn't like feeling pressured to try to sell things to people. So I really did feel like I was helping people in that situation.

shawn (14:18.702)
And then and then compare that to Matt, you're the great example of this being true. When you started in that industry, you got to the point where you felt like, wait a minute, I'm not I'm just I'm it's isn't I'm trying to sell something to make money. And I don't believe in what I'm selling. And the natural consequence of that, Matt was you failed at it. Yeah, you left you failed at it. But and you failed at it because

Matt (14:38.974)
I left sales. I left.

shawn (14:44.608)
You weren't truly believing in creating value for someone. And the visible hand is kind of like, okay, if you don't really truly believe in it, and you're not going to do it with good intention, the visible hand says you will fail at it. I think the motive has to be there. Don't you think so, Porter? You don't think the motive has to be there, Porter?

Porter (14:57.965)
That's- okay, this is not the invisible hand. We've strayed now from the invisible hand. That's ju-

Matt (15:05.814)
This is what I'm gonna say, Sean. I've had two jobs in my life where I definitely did not benefit the community. The first was when I sold living scriptures. Well, wait, I sold knives to your mom. That also didn't help. Your mom bought knives just to be nice to me, right? She's like, This poor kid trying to but selling living scriptures. I would go into like poor people's houses who couldn't afford living scriptures and I would offer them a bunch of free stuff and they would sign a contract and that they couldn't afford.

And I would like lock them into debt for four years. I don't feel like I was doing them any good selling them living scriptures. And then the other one I had, I was a business development coach. I would find business people and I would like persuade them to yeah, yeah. It was like the emoth kind of stuff. And I would persuade them like, hey, you know what? You need me to help you succeed in your business. Me, like a psychology student from BYU.

shawn (15:47.982)
and teach him the E-Myth, right?

shawn (15:58.156)
Okay, so Porter, right, but Porter, this is the point. Matt didn't believe that what he was selling was valuable. And so he didn't put his heart and soul into, that's my point. See, Porter, he didn't put his heart and soul into making it valuable. Now, Matt, guess what? I have had people sell me that E-Myth package and they sold it with all their heart and mind. Now, I am an entrepreneur and that E-Myth package helped me.

Matt (16:06.397)
It wasn't valuable.

shawn (16:21.056)
tremendously. And those people who taught it to me believed in it and they offered me value and I was happy to pay for that. So Porter, the invisible hand here, Matt doesn't believe in it, therefore he doesn't sell it with any value. So the invisible hand says that will all fall apart and fail.

Porter (16:37.373)
That's just, it's just being a bad salesman. That's not the invisible hand.

Matt (16:42.614)
I was actually a very good salesperson. I just one day looked at this room of people that paid thousands of dollars and I said, What are they getting in exchange for this money? And I was like, This is a bunch of BS that we're selling to them. That's why I decided to go get a PhD because I was like, if I'm gonna charge money to people for the things I'm gonna teach them, I'm actually gonna teach them something of value. And I make far less as a professor teaching something of far greater value.

Porter (17:04.229)
Yeah.

Matt (17:09.642)
Than I did as a salesperson teaching a bunch of like garbage stuff.

shawn (17:09.774)
Okay.

Porter (17:12.761)
Yeah, so this this would be that

shawn (17:12.846)
Okay, but what do you say about my anecdote? Someone taught me the E-Myth, the same package you sold, and it helped me tremendously. So how do you play that into the equation?

Matt (17:23.764)
Well, I didn't sell the emyth package. We actually sold this other thing that this guy named Frank invented with his wife on their own. And I'm telling you, that stuff was a bunch of garbage. There was some neurolinguistic programming in that. There was some like create a void sort of stuff in there. I'm just saying. No, we like the emoth was like a book that we would suggest people read, but that wasn't what we were. We weren't doing that, is what I'm saying. Sean, you would have if I gave you the business training I was offering, $1,000 per session for, and this was like

shawn (17:31.874)
No.

You're backpedaling Matt, not your, you're backpedaling because I know you sold the E-Math.

Matt (17:53.751)
Twenty, thirty years ago when a thousand dollars was worth much more than it is now, you would not have said, Wow, Matt, there's a lot of value in that. Thank you so much for teaching me to create a void and I don't know, all these weird things we were telling people. It was garbage.

Porter (18:07.031)
think the takeaway can be is if you are Gen Z and because this is hard for me to relate to because a lot most of the jobs I've had the job I have right now really is I do feel fulfilled I definitely am helping people. But I think the takeaway is if you are Gen Z and you feel like there are no jobs available to you that are making a difference take advantage of the United States world class higher education system and the many many

shawn (18:35.106)
the

Porter (18:37.334)
you know, subsidies and loans that are available to you to make those opportunities available.

Matt (18:47.328)
There you go. What do you say to that, Sean? Yeah, I'll give Porter the points for that.

Porter (18:47.998)
and improve yourself in the process.

shawn (18:48.248)
points to Porter no points to Porter Matt no no points Matt you're not allowed to give them to Porter

Matt (18:56.316)
Okay, I'll give I can't give you points, Sean. Like the invisible hand does not create good things in society. It can create good things in society, but it doesn't always create good things in society.

Porter (19:07.347)
Yes, Sean, I see you shaking your head. Yes.

shawn (19:09.142)
If you don't create value, if you don't create value for someone, you will not get value in return for very long, you won't and the invisible hand will smother that non value creating non beneficial, dually beneficial transaction. You have to.

Porter (19:27.292)
This is the reverse of the invisible hand. The invisible hand analogy in the wealth of nations, the example that was given was people will tend to buy domestic products rather than foreign products if they're of similar quality and price because it's just easier for them. So you don't need

Matt (19:27.574)
Sean, let's talk about

Porter (19:52.593)
to implement tariffs or protectionist policies because the invisible hand of the market, the fact that these things are more readily available domestically will cause people to buy domestically. The analogy being that, or the kind of principle being that people just being self-interested can do things that are beneficial to their market as a whole.

by buying domestically because it's better for their business, they're actually also improving their domestic economy. So the invisible hand is just that in aggregate, self-interested decisions can have beneficial effects on larger systems like a national economy. Doesn't necessarily mean that everything in business is going to make sense.

Matt (20:52.712)
Yeah. I'll give you the example, Sean.

shawn (20:53.294)
I'm not saying everything. I'm not saying everything in business makes sense. I'm saying that the the value in exchange for value will benefit and grow the businesses that do make sense that help each other and those that don't will will fall apart. They won't exist. They won't thrive.

Matt (21:10.528)
But in the last year, Trump made hundreds of millions of dollars by selling his meme coin. He sold it at $75 per Trump meme coin, and now it's worth less than a dollar. So he made hundreds of millions of dollars by selling something of no value while other people purchased it and it's worth no value. Thousands of people purchased it.

Porter (21:30.164)
Yeah.

shawn (21:30.188)
Right, and that thing won't, and that thing won't, that is the invisible hand in action. That thing won't perpetuate. That is not a proven product that sold, gave value to those people. They'll never buy it again.

Porter (21:38.152)
Well, I mean, Adam Smith would be the fool to tell you, yeah, people can just cheat. People can cheat. And lie.

Matt (21:44.372)
Yeah. That's that's true. It won't create that's what I'm saying, it won't create value, Sean, but it'll

shawn (21:47.918)
Yeah, I know. but over time, right, but over time, that cheating and lying gets exposed because the receiver is not receiving a true value. They were bamboozled, they were tricked. And over time, they will not consume that product. won't be a lasting product. won't exist.

Porter (22:04.426)
But it's too late now.

Matt (22:06.58)
Right. So if you have a society where enough people have been bamboozled by greedy capitalists, but then there's no jobs left because society has no money to buy the good, valuable things because they've been bamboozled too many times.

shawn (22:10.358)
Yes, society learns. Society learns.

shawn (22:21.454)
I have more faith in people that they can't be bamboozled so much that they'll destroy them. You guys in your highly educated little cloud, you think that people are idiots. People aren't good enough to make decisions for themselves and they, without your guidance, they will destroy themselves. That's not true. Their self-interest will help them survive.

Matt (22:24.608)
Yeah.

Porter (22:26.986)
Porter (22:44.326)
No,

No, think it's that, I think you underestimate how smart, how good these fraudsters are.

shawn (22:57.486)
I, I, I, I get that there's, I get that they are, but you guys definitely underestimate God's children, their ability to use their agency and learn and to grow.

Matt (22:57.866)
Bamboozlers, I like to call them.

Porter (22:58.849)
Bamboozlers are are debt.

Porter (23:14.328)
The scripture says that many will be blinded by the craftiness of men. If you could be blinded by the craftiness of men away from inheriting the celestial kingdom, you can definitely be blinded by the craftiness of men out of a couple bucks.

Matt (23:14.518)
Sean, this is a different

shawn (23:26.156)
And then does it say those of you need to go go then it says those of you who can save those will be blinded by the craftiness of men you guys go get your education and be our saviors tell us what to do tell us how to live tell us what we should buy shouldn't buy how we should survive that's what it says

Matt (23:27.062)
Porter gets the points.

Porter (23:37.572)
Yeah.

Matt (23:41.641)
Okay, Sean gets Sean gets some points for that because that feels good to me, but I think he's being sarcastic. And so I kind of there's just some points. All right. I'll take him. Like to me, it all sounds the same. It all feels the same. All right, here's the next topic. The fertility rate in the United States has been dropping steadily for nearly 20 years, reaching a record low in 2025.

Porter (23:50.692)
You get sarcastic.

shawn (23:52.984)
So that's the point.

Matt (24:06.89)
While major events like the 2008 economic recession and the COVID-19 pandemic caused part of this decline, recent research studies suggest that the widespread use of smartphones like the iPhone may explain up to half of the drop, especially among women under 25. Birth rates fell in nearly every single state between 2007 and 2020, with western states like Arizona and Utah.

Experiencing the sharpest declines of over 30%, while North Dakota had the the smallest change. In October of 2025, President Oak said, the national declines in marriage and childbearing are understandable for historic reasons, but Latter-day Saint values and practices should improve, not follow those trends. So here's the question Is the steady decline in fertility rates in Utah, Idaho, and Arizona evidence that young people are not following the profit?

Yes is my answer to that. I always I ask questions in a way to shame people, but yes, yes, yes. Young people, please follow the prophet and start having children.

shawn (25:08.108)
Hahaha

Porter (25:17.053)
You know, I asked my cousin about, I asked my cousin what he thinks. My cousin has eight children. Their youngest is just a few weeks old, but I asked what he thinks and he, was expecting some good insight, but he said, wait, President Oaks said that in 2025. There's no way that we could see, that we could see a change in the data by now if he said that in 2025.

shawn (25:17.163)
Stay to that Porter.

Matt (25:23.476)
Yes, good man.

Matt (25:45.052)
Okay. That's true. There hasn't been enough time to reverse the maybe in a year they'll be like, Whoa, there were so many babies in Utah and Idaho in twenty twenty six.

Porter (25:53.369)
Yeah, I'm sure the 2027 data will show massive spike in fertility. But no, I mean, obviously, the prophets have been have been saying this continuously for forever. So

Porter (26:08.546)
I don't know. It's hard to say. I don't. I'm like afraid to say yes because of like people that I know that for a lot of legitimate reasons don't have, you know, more than two kids, which, you know, is the amount that you would need to be multiplying. I guess you can just have two and replenish the earth. You need you need at least three to multiply.

shawn (26:35.054)
Ha ha ha ha!

Porter (26:37.818)
but I don't know it's

We've never been given such a number. I'm sympathetic to all the people that I know who are not in that situation.

Matt (26:53.408)
Yeah. What do you say, Sean?

shawn (26:56.302)
Yeah, I think you're right. Follow the prophet. Multiply and replenish as much as you can. But that is obviously something between an individual and God, right? I'd be interested in, Matt, what are the motives? What is the reason for the infertility? Does it say anything about that? Do you understand why?

Matt (27:16.502)
Yeah, no.

Porter (27:18.208)
Smartphones.

Matt (27:20.18)
Yeah, the the article said smartphones. The study said smart hmm. I don't know. I actually think I've actually struggled with this a lot because I have a smartphone and I have access to social media, but it doesn't seem to shape the way that I view reality, the way that it does my kids that are just finished high school. Like they look at social media and what they see on there, and to them that is reality. And if I try to say to them

shawn (27:20.226)
What does that mean? Yeah, but what does that mean?

Matt (27:49.259)
Look, that person's just being stupid to try and get clicks. They're like, no, this is the way everybody sees things. Or like there's like this copycat sort of stuff that happens. One person will do this thing and then everybody else wants to copy it. So I think that there is something too so to phones and social media and the way people interact with it that is shaping attitudes. Pres when President Oak says there's historic there's the trends are understandable for historic reasons. I don't know what he's talking about. Like I do know that.

There's a trend that as society advances socioeconomically and becomes less agrarian, that you don't need a whole bunch of kids to work on the farm and moving into urban areas is more expensive in terms of space. And so it's like, okay, if I live in a large city, I can't have a big family, and there's not as many reasons to have a big family. But I don't know what he was saying. What is the understandable reasons and what are the reasons you shouldn't like say, I'm not having kids.

Porter (28:46.635)
Yeah, I mean, if you're looking at among members of the church, this may be a little bit less applicable, but it's well documented that Gen Z is having far less sex than any previous generation. And that they're in much fewer committed relationships than any previous generation.

And I think a lot of that does have to do with their meeting fewer people in physical spaces, interacting with fewer people in a meaningful way.

shawn (29:27.662)
Do you think it also has a lot to do with maybe the emotional effects of pornography?

Porter (29:34.715)
possibly. We're not the first generation to have pornography, but I guess we're the first generation to have pornography in your pocket at all times.

shawn (29:44.332)
In abundance, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Porter (29:47.084)
Yeah, could be.

shawn (29:50.424)
Like it's like.

Matt (29:50.763)
I remember when President Oakes gave this talk, I was like, Why is he saying this? Like it didn't make any sense to me why we would have a general conference talk about having children. But then I saw this story and I was like, maybe that's why he said it. Maybe he's noticed, he's aware that people aren't having kids.

Porter (30:05.854)
He's also he's he's talked a little bit about how families have become units of consumption when they used to be units of production and has talked a lot about the real like virtue and like sibling relationships and parent child relationships that how important that is to our development. And a big part of the reason I've seen from some research that I could not tell you right now.

that people are having fewer children is because they feel like they have less time to devote to them. Like they don't want to have a child and neglect them. So people are having fewer children for that reason. So it could just be that there are a lot more demands on our time away from children that they used to be. Cause you know, if you're growing up on a farm, if you're living on a farm, there's

Matt (30:52.266)
Yeah. There is this wo

Porter (31:05.786)
tons of demands on your time, but your children can be there.

Matt (31:09.428)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (31:10.473)
It's probably, mean, but.

Porter (31:10.854)
More work is taking people out of their home.

shawn (31:14.828)
But compared to the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, I don't think you could apply that, right? There's not more, you know what mean? I think it's the perception of it that social media gives, right? This overwhelming amount of accessibility, visibility, and data that makes me feel constantly just overwhelmed with everything. It's just the perception that we're not, we don't have the time, or we don't have the ability.

Porter (31:21.486)
Mmm, yeah.

Matt (31:24.192)
Well in

Matt (31:43.265)
Well, and I'm I again I I'm just being an old man, but like it seems to me like when I got married, I didn't feel like I needed the a whole lot of stuff in order to have kids. But I talked to young people today and they feel like I shouldn't have kids unless I'm in a position that I can give my children the things that they need to be successful in life, which for some people would be private schools.

Or they need to have really nice clothes, or they need to be able to travel a lot and see the world and experience things.

shawn (32:13.718)
Matt, that's the same excuse a lot of young people give about getting married. I can't get married unless I'm financially stable. Yeah, it's the same excuse. Porter, do you think that way? To me, these ways are, to Matt and I, that's very foreign. Like, no, man, get married and figure out life together. Get your foundation together and then you'll get ready to know how to live life and be successful and provide for children. Why would you do that on your own? What do you know about providing for your children on your own?

Matt (32:18.4)
Mm-hmm.

Porter (32:32.608)
Yeah.

Porter (32:38.719)
Yeah

Porter (32:43.317)
I mean, I personally got married and have had two children and have not, I don't know, defined financially stable. But I don't know. I feel like.

shawn (32:57.048)
Do you regret it? Do you feel like you would have been better off had you waited to get your first like nice paying career going and then get married and then have kids?

Porter (33:06.301)
No, that would have been crazy.

shawn (33:08.364)
Yeah, see it would have been crazy. It would have been miserable.

Matt (33:09.674)
Yeah.

Porter (33:10.251)
That seems crazy to me, I don't know. I have started to experience the stress that people are trying to avoid of, know, like when you're single or even if you're married without kids, if you run into financial troubles, it doesn't feel like a very big deal. But as soon as you have kids, it feels like a very big deal.

shawn (33:33.07)
Do you feel like?

I love that it is true but do feel like that's different for Gen Z than it is for any other generation that's ever existed on this planet?

Matt (33:36.501)
Yeah.

Porter (33:42.294)
I mean, for sure, no. And if anything, it's if anything, it's easier now than it has been for a lot of previous generations. Probably it's probably about the same as like our parents generation that like there's a lot of safety nets in place.

Matt (34:02.144)
But it is harder to find an affordable house. It is harder to say Yeah. So I like going back

Porter (34:04.924)
That's true. We haven't really thought about trying to purchase a home.

Matt (34:12.724)
Right. Like at the beginning I was being a little facetious and hard on people. I do want to be sensitive because I do believe that the prophets teach us general principles and then the Holy Ghost guides us in our personal decisions. So even though I think it's fun to joke on the podcast about being like judgmental about people, I do recognize that everybody has their own individual circumstances. And like I as long as a person is saying, I want to follow the prophet, let me figure out what I'm supposed to do in this specific instance. Like as an example.

Food storage, right? Like, I cannot get some people in my family to stop saying we need to have like a year's supply of food. And I'm like, imagine if we lived in like Manhattan where you like where square footage is like a premium. There's no way it makes sense to try to store a bunch of food in your house. Or when it's time to move, how many times I've helped people move food storage that's probably a bunch of like rotten wheat in cans that they're never gonna eat. And so

I think it's important for us to be wise about the counsel of the prophet, but I just wondered like what are these trends and what is the prophet telling us to do? And I d I just didn't know the answer to it. So I d listeners, if you're in that situation, I don't wanna judge you, but I'd love to hear from you.

shawn (35:21.154)
Well, man, I was going to give you.

shawn (35:25.826)
Yeah, I was going to give you points, Matt, because I really like it when you get on a soapbox and preach with a judgmental finger. I like it because it's so rare, but it shows the convictions that you have. And I can easily discern about between when you are actually convicted on something and actually kind of just play in the both sides. So I was going to give you points, but you just apologized for it. So sorry, no points.

Matt (35:43.754)
Yeah.

so then no points. Well, it's because I only have one child that's natural born. Three of my kids are adopted. So it's really hard for me to be like, hey, have more kids. Cause I'm like, I didn't have more kids, but it wasn't because I didn't try. I tried. I believe in trying to have kids, but we just couldn't. And maybe that's what it is. Honestly, I I I I don't want to say it's a conspiracy theory, but I do know people that believe that.

shawn (35:58.862)
Yeah. There you go.

Matt (36:12.906)
People just can't have as many kids as they used to be able to have because of things in our diet and things in like pesticides and all of that sort of stuff. Porter doesn't buy it. We can s well that's cause you have kids.

Porter (36:24.562)
Yeah, I have kids. No problem at all. I've been eating the same pesticides as everyone else.

Matt (36:26.97)
Ha ha

All right. I'm gonna give the points to Porter because yeah. All right. the mayor of Fairview, Texas, his name's John Hubbard. He is publicly asking leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to compromise on the height of a new temple steeple that is being built in his town. The small town of 11,000 residents has a strict 35-foot height limit for residential buildings.

Porter (36:39.91)
Hahaha

shawn (36:40.216)
Me too.

Matt (37:03.808)
To preserve its open character, but the church's current design includes a 120-foot steeple. While the town's zoning board initially rejected the building plan, the local government was forced to settle the dispute because of a federal law that threatened to bankrupt the town with legal fees if they lost in court. Though through a public campaign called Fairview Speaks, Mayor Hubbard is asking the church's new president, Dallin H. Oaks, and senior leadership.

To lower the steeple to one hundred feet as an act of goodwill, pointing out that the church previously made a similar height reduction for a temple in California, I think it was your Belinda, after hearing from local neighbors. So here's the question. Should the church reduce the height of the new temple as an act of goodwill?

shawn (37:52.76)
Yeah, why not.

I mean, it's probably a pretty major architectural change, right? You can't just shorten a building and without taking out rooms and all that kind of stuff. So it's probably a heavy expense.

Matt (37:56.404)
my goodness, you guys.

Porter (38:09.197)
Well, it's the steeple. They want it to bring it down to how it's short.

shawn (38:13.134)
20 more feet.

Matt (38:13.492)
A hundred twenty it's a hundred twenty now. They wanted to go to a hundred feet.

Porter (38:18.743)
think you could do that just by reducing the steeple, but...

shawn (38:22.542)
You're not an architect, Porter. I thought you were educated. Why are you speaking for educated architect? You need a degree and a license to be an architect. Do you have those?

Matt (38:23.38)
Yeah.

Porter (38:25.517)
I mean, I'm not. I'm not.

Matt (38:28.982)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (38:34.612)
No porter's malum and say him. He's taught himself. This is the th the church wanted w

Porter (38:39.369)
I I actually...

shawn (38:40.78)
You just invisible handed that whole topic, man.

Matt (38:44.534)
it's true that they could make it 100 feet. So this was I only learned about this because the guy wrote an op-ed in the Salt Lake Tribune, like asking the church to do this. But this is the thing. The church was originally going to make it 160 feet. Then there was a legal fight, and there was a compromise to 120 feet. And now the mayor's saying, Yeah, sure we gave in, but we're not done. We would still like it to be what our original position is. And this is why the church shouldn't give in.

Who cares if they could easily, even if it's easy, you shouldn't do it. Because once you reach an agreement, you you reach an alleg a legal compromise, the city signed off on it, then it's not on them to say, okay, that was our compromise. Let's go back and renegotiate the contract. You say to the city, you agreed to this, we agreed to it, that's the contract, that's how it is.

shawn (39:36.076)
Matt, you withheld some important information so that you could have your gotcha moment.

Porter (39:36.623)
Yeah, I... Yeah, I could tell that this did not seem like a good faith request from a neighbor. Like, after a legal fight has already happened, like once you bring litigation, you can no longer claim, as an act of good faith, could you please... when you've already brought this to litigation. And it's clearly seems like the mayor is setting himself up.

for to just be like, if they do it, I'm the mayor who fought for you against the stinky Mormons trying to ruin your town.

I don't like it. don't necessarily know. I don't know. I feel like it would require some... some... you know... revelation there to decide if that's the right decision or not, but... I'm not buying the friendly neighbor argument from the Fairview Mayor.

shawn (40:18.018)
Matt, would you?

shawn (40:37.656)
So Matt, would have, you obviously are good with the initial negotiation where the church did compromise to be a good citizen. So that's not the issue, it's the fact that it's the second round of negotiations and they're reneging on that, the original. Okay, all right, I think we're all on the same page. Yeah.

Matt (40:55.146)
That's what I think. Yeah.

Matt (41:00.69)
okay. Yeah, I think that I think that as a church, after you've reached a legal agreement, a legal negotiated like compromise, then you don't keep doing it because that sends the wrong message. You have it's a global church. And if people around the world in other countries, other organizations, other groups realize that, look, the church made this agreement with our city. President Nelson died. Now there's a new president. Let's renegotiate that.

If the church reopens negotiations like that, they have to renegotiate everything they have around the world. And it it doesn't make sense for a global church to on a regular basis say, You're right. Let's be nice again and let's think about this again. It's better for them to just say, No, this was the deal we made and we're gonna stick with that deal.

Porter (41:48.16)
Especially since the the ordinance in Fairview, think doesn't it say like buildings need to be under like 50 feet So it's not gonna make like we're already way beyond And it's not that much of a difference between a hundred feet and 130 feet

Matt (41:57.91)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (42:13.44)
Well and again, if it's just a steeple, what does it matter, right? Why does the city have to like hold on to the size of a steeple? It's not suddenly changing your small community into a big town. They don't want the temple there at all, anyways. So it's really not about the steeple. Of course we're biased. This is the latter day lens. We're gonna stick up for the church.

shawn (42:25.07)
You guys are you guys are biased. You guys are biased in this.

Porter (42:29.671)
Yes.

shawn (42:35.438)
This is the topic that you're deciding to tell the latter day lens.

Matt (42:43.976)
Sean gets the points for pointing out that I have bias towards the church on certain topics.

shawn (42:48.045)
Ha ha.

Porter (42:50.03)
Also, we should point out that clearly if they're building a temple in Fairview, there are a significant number of members of the church in Fairview, and that it's not like this is the church against the town. There are many members of the town who I'm sure would like for the temple to be the height that it was originally designed to be.

Matt (43:04.138)
Want the temple.

Matt (43:09.044)
Yeah. Okay, here's the big question. we talked about this a little bit before, but there's a recent study that was done that looks at retention rates within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints across different demographics like gender and age. So just to be really clear about what it shows, 18-year-old men currently have a retention rate of just under 60%, which rises to

S just slightly above 60% for older men. So if you're a young man or you're an old man, your retention rate is right around 60%. in contrast, there's a big gap among women. 18-year-old women have a much lower retention rate of just under 40%, whereas the oldest women in the study maintain a higher retention rate of 60%. So if young women are leaving the church at a higher rate than young men,

Old women are about the same as old men at staying in the church. So on the one hand, this is great news because it means we have higher retention rates than every other religion in the United States, except for maybe Muslims are kind of tied with us. They have equal kind of retention rates. On the other hand, it seems to show that young women are leaving the church at higher rates than young men. And so this is the question for us men to discuss. Why is this happening?

Porter (44:33.119)
I want to point out also a clarifying detail from the study that Latter-day Saints have like a similar retention rate if you're just talking about identification to a lot of other sects, like we're not that high. And there are a lot of sects that have a higher retention rate than us if you're just talking about identification, but that we have the highest

shawn (44:33.194)
that's a hard one.

Porter (45:03.131)
active identification rate, like the highest retention rate of people who remain actively attending than any other tree.

Matt (45:10.996)
Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying like there are a lot of people who say they're Catholics but never go to the Catholic church.

Porter (45:17.351)
Yeah, I think that showed like Hindus was the highest retention because there are cultural components there for Hindus and Muslims and Catholics and Orthodox Christians who it's a kind of cradle to grave identification even if they've never been to a service in their life. But in terms of active retention, we are higher than any other denomination, which I found that very

Matt (45:36.565)
Yeah.

Porter (45:44.578)
encouraging because I have oftentimes been discouraged that our active retention rate is only 42 % until I compare it to the rest of all the churches in America and realize that we're actually doing pretty good.

Matt (46:01.044)
Yeah. It'd be nice if it was better, but we're not like it's not like there's a ton of people leaving our church and they're all going to some church that everybody loves to be a part of.

Porter (46:03.214)
Yeah.

Porter (46:10.551)
Yeah, I think it's just it's following the trend of general secularization and reduced religious activity, but it's following the trend slower than the general trend.

Matt (46:12.384)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (46:26.254)
But the most fascinating part of this is why is it different for sisters in God's church than it is for brethren? Matt, do you have an answer? I want your answer. You better give me an answer.

Matt (46:26.72)
But we do Yeah.

Matt (46:39.85)
Well, and I just want to point out that that's something that's distinct to our church. That gap is bigger in our church than in any other church. So that's like a very specific Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gap.

shawn (46:50.094)
But,

But the exodus rates, even with women that are much lower in our church, are still at par with the other churches, right?

Matt (46:59.52)
Sure, but that gap, that gap between eighteen year olds where there's twenty percent more young women leaving our church than men, is the biggest gap of any church in the US.

shawn (47:02.072)
Yeah, I understand.

shawn (47:09.358)
So you could take away that, okay, women across all religions have a general attitude about staying or leaving. Maybe in the church, maybe we're focusing much more, and we have focused a little bit more lately on activating young men and keeping young men, you know, getting out of the 18, 19, 20 year old era. Maybe we're just focusing more on

not losing young men and now it's starting to imbalance and that's not good. We need to shift to as much energy with the young women as well. I would love to see the date on when this shifted, right? Because how long ago, Matt, was it when the young men's organization changed dramatically and there's no longer a young men's president and a young women's president, there was just a bishopric and their whole job was to delegate everything almost.

Porter (47:42.311)
in

Matt (47:42.742)
Yeah.

shawn (48:04.15)
and focus on young men? Well, focus on young women too, but focus on young men, right? Wasn't that kind of culturally the takeaway?

Porter (48:11.623)
I don't know. When I was in the bishopric a couple, you know, like two years ago, we did not really have a distinction like that between young men and young women. We were concerned with the youth. I went to as many young women events as I did young men's events, but

shawn (48:27.63)
Yeah, but you were, if you were a member of the Bishopric, you were in charge of, specifically in charge of one of the young men's organization, which means the Bishopric was focusing your time on those organizations. And then the Young Women's President was there to kind of represent all of the general young women. You got three members of the Bishopric focused on the men, you have one Young Women's President focused on all women.

Porter (48:51.524)
I don't know. I was the second counselor in the bishopric. I was assigned to the deacons quorum and to our youngest young women's class. And I would attend them both pretty much all like, yeah, I would say this may not be the same in all units, but in our ward, it was a similar level of responsibility over the young men and young women. They also had me over primary though. So I...

Matt (48:52.073)
Isn't it

Matt (49:06.005)
You like switch off?

Matt (49:20.896)
Spend a lot of time there.

Porter (49:21.013)
our younger youth got a little more divided attention, but.

shawn (49:24.726)
Okay, so if it's not that, which would be a relief, then what is it, Matt?

Matt (49:30.314)
I have two things, and I think they're mostly cultural. I don't think that they're actually in the church at all. I think one of them is that when I was younger, men were taught you need to prepare to receive the priesthood and serve a mission. And women were taught you need to prepare to get married and have children. And I think that for young women today, if the message of the church is prepare to get married and have children, as we just talked about before, that message doesn't appeal to a lot of young women.

And then I think the second one is the church. And again, I think this is cultural. I don't think that this is actually doctrinal, but the church has this ethos of I'll just call it sexism, where like as a zone leader on a mission, I would be in charge of the sisters on the mission, and I would be in charge of telling them what to do. And we have this culture in the church that says, let's have a word council, let's discuss things. Women, you're invited.

But the final word is always going to be a priesthood holder. It's always going to be a man. It's always going to be a bishop. And I don't think that that's doctrinal. I think that's actually anti-the gospel. But I think that those two cultural things make young women say, I don't want to be a part of an organization that doesn't allow me to be my full self. And so the scripture, because I prepared a scripture, Sean, the scripture says, No power or influence can.

Or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood alone. And I think that there are far too many people in the church that try to maintain authority by the fact that they have the priesthood or they have this calling. And the scriptures are clear. You cannot maintain authority by virtue of that alone.

shawn (51:17.038)
Can I ask a few follow-up questions to you? Because I did not expect your answer to be the sexism in the culture of the church. So that's interesting. So your example of a zone leader, like that's fascinating. You said a zone leader on a mission was in charge of and told others what to do. See, I never not once even had that thought. The zone leader was there to take a report.

That's it. Like I didn't feel like he was my boss or he was trying to tell me what to do. I was a servant of the Lord the same way that sister Bob Kovah was a servant of the Lord. And you are called to go out there and preach repentance. Sure, someone needs to get in line to report some numbers. So I agree with you that if that culture, cultural failure exists, that's that's not good. That's a failure. And it's not the way it's supposed to be.

Matt (51:44.436)
No, like there was

Matt (51:49.355)
Yeah, but

Matt (52:06.356)
It's totally there. I remember there were two sisters in my zone that were like having a fight and dis a disagreement or something like that. And they're like, Elder Miles, you need to go to that apartment and you need to help them sort that out. And so like I showed up and said, What are you fighting about? And let's resolve this.

shawn (52:20.204)
Yeah, but yeah, but if you if you were far away from that couple, and there's another sister or elder in that area, the mission present, because it could have easily just said, Hey, go sort that out. You know what mean? It's not your authority as a zone leader to be the boss of it. That makes sense. That's, that's pragmatic. That makes sense. But again, if you weren't in that area, and his own leader wasn't, they could have asked someone else to do that. There's no authority for you to go sort that out.

Matt (52:33.322)
They told me I had to do it 'cause I was the zone leader. That was like my job as the zone.

Porter (52:44.214)
I mean, the handbook says something to the effect of the zone leaders responsible for ensuring obedience to the mission rules within their zone. And that, I'll tell you, as an 18 year old went straight to my head, I was not effectively persuasive with many of the

shawn (53:06.274)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Porter (53:12.02)
the elders in my zone, although I will say, I was much better, I was much better at my wool and then-

Matt (53:12.256)
Yeah.

shawn (53:18.367)
Thanks Porter. Thank you. Thank you for being vulnerably honest about something that's yeah, that's that's fascinating to hear

Porter (53:24.358)
Yeah, and I honestly that's one of my biggest regrets from my mission is that I I tried to maintain power and influence by virtue of the zone leader is not even a priesthood calling. But but we'll see. I was much more successful at having what I felt like was a good influence with sisters in our mission. I had some like I had elders that came to me and said like, screw you, you are the worst.

shawn (53:36.994)
That's right! See, now I unfortunately...

Porter (53:54.154)
But I sisters come to me and say, thank you so much for helping us. Like we feel so included. We feel so like involved in the decision making of our zone at the zone conferences that you've been leading. Thank you very much. So I really feel like.

shawn (54:07.158)
Okay, but not not not to not to pile on with this. But is that maybe part of the problem is that if an elder like myself felt like, okay, the zone leaders there to take my report, but he has no authority. I viewed our zone leaders as good, good job. Good job for taking numbers. That's it. Right? I'm here under the Lord's authority to go out and do the work. If we're teaching that a sister needs like I only felt seen if a nominal leader

Matt (54:14.933)
Yeah.

shawn (54:34.774)
gives me attention, Matt, that's what you're saying. That's part of the problem, right?

Matt (54:39.604)
That yeah, that's what that's what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not doctrinal. I'm saying it's cultural. And try being a young woman who says to a church leader, You don't have any authority over me to tell me what to do. You'll get told many, many times in the church, you better listen to your priesthood leaders. Like you're supposed to listen to your priesthood leaders. And so women feel, I don't, I don't know, right? But this is just my guess. There's I would just call this the sexism that's in the church, not in an overt, like men are in charge, but in this

The priesthood is in charge. And I think that the membership of the church doesn't follow that scripture that says authority doesn't come by virtue of the priesthood alone. And so if you are only maintaining authority or you're telling your children that you have to just listen to so and so because they have the priesthood or they have that calling, then you're reinforcing these ideas that, in my opinion, are not doctrinal and they lead to sexism because women say, I need the priesthood in order to be equal in the church.

Because I've been taught my whole life that whoever has the priesthood is in charge. Therefore I can't have any say unless I have the priesthood. Whereas the scriptures are actually telling us the opposite of that. That it just the fact that you have the priesthood gives you no authority. That's not where the authority comes from. And unless you learn to exercise the priesthood in the right way, you will have no authority. But as a culture, we don't think about it that way. And we don't teach people that way. And I think that that makes women say, I'm a second class citizen in the church.

shawn (56:07.214)
That's heavy, dude. I hope that's not the case because honestly when you gave your answer and suggested sexism I immediately have a knee-jerk reaction and I'm like no dude, there's no sex it's not sexism and then like compared to true like visual sexism, but overt maybe when you when explain it in that it isn't an overt way then maybe yeah, maybe you're right and

Porter (56:30.123)
like We're also talking about a fairly small I mean it's like significant but fairly small difference in the percentage between men and women so this could definitely be like It could be in some units of the church overt sexism That it could be a bigger problem in some places and others, but I don't I definitely don't know anywhere where Like young men feel

like they could be inferior to the young women in the church, but I could definitely think of some places where the young women feel neglected or second class.

shawn (57:07.062)
I mean, and that's good point, Porter. And that would be interesting to break down this this data to see, are there outlier cultures that maybe are more sexist covertly that maybe skew these numbers, right? Maybe members of the church in some other culture that it really is sexist.

Porter (57:20.683)
Yeah.

Porter (57:25.773)
I mean, and even within the United States, because I think it's just American data, right? But it. Yeah. But it's I mean, there could be regional differences. I talked to my wife who grew up in the South about her church education growing up, and some of it blows my mind how crazy and backwards some of it seems compared to what I grew up with.

Matt (57:30.506)
Right. And it's not even the church data, right? So there's very little we actually know.

shawn (57:31.237)
OK.

Porter (57:52.982)
in the West and what my sisters went through in young women's, that I think she would definitely agree that that was her experience to an extent. But it's not everywhere.

Matt (58:05.972)
And I do think this is why the church, not the only reason, but I do think that the church lowering the age of missionary service for young women is going to help with this, because young women have a reason to stay in the church that isn't tied to marriage and motherhood. That they're taught from a young age, you have value as a disciple of Jesus Christ, and you have every bit of authority to preach the gospel that a young man does. And so equaling some of that stuff out, I think, will help with some of this.

shawn (58:32.366)
So, Matt, just real quick, I had no idea that this would be such a like deeply moving topic. I had no idea. Thank you for introducing it. So on my Mission Stories podcast about a year ago, I interviewed these two twins, these girls and this friend of theirs, these three girls. And it was a fascinating thing because they were taking my mission prep course at the same time I invited them to the podcast. They were going through an incredibly deep like faith crisis.

And I was working with them to try and help them make decisions. Do I go on the missions that I have callings for or do I not? And they all admitted that the reason they went on their missions was because they were viewing you and they saw all their friends getting calls and they loved how they would get up and they'd have all the people surround them and they'd read their call. they honestly, they're like, we just wanted that attention. We really liked that attention. So that's why we did it. Then they get their calls and they're faced with going and they're like, wait, what? I don't even know if I believe in this stuff. In fact, I don't know if I like any of this stuff.

And they started spiraling and going. And the main, some of the main issues that they had were priesthood and the indifference between, or the difference between men and women in the church. Now fast forward a year, because we worked like really hard and they all, they all did the right things. They started feasting on the words of Christ, having faith and repenting. They just, they did it the right way. Just yesterday, I get this email from her.

She says, I've been studying the worth of souls recently and wow, I just can't, I just want to be a missionary forever. She says, every person we walk past is a child of a loving father who wants them home. God doesn't measure people by their protection, perfection or followers they have or the things they have to offer. And I'm sure you could put in there or their gender, right? But he measures them by the price that has already been paid.

Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God for behold the Lord Redeemer suffered death in the flesh were for he suffered the pain of all men that all men might repent and come unto him then as she says When Heavenly Father looks at each of us. He doesn't see a project He sees the atonement and he sees his son Jesus Christ every soul is priceless It's incredible. It's incredible to me that these yeah, if it would break my heart if any sister in our church felt

shawn (01:00:35.636)
less than for any reason, right? The truth is, like Sister Judd here says, if you come to Christ through faith, repentance, baptism, gifts of the ghost and the covenants in the temple, you are equal to the inheritance that God offers every human being, including men, right? There's nothing different, nothing, nothing at all. So it breaks my heart. So thanks a lot for making me emotionally feel something deeply, Matt, points to you.

Matt (01:01:03.479)
There's no points on the big question, but we'll have that be the final word. Hey guys, thanks so much for joining me this week. Listeners, let us know what you think. We'll talk to you again next week. Take care.

shawn (01:01:05.162)
You get points though.