Matt 0:12

Welcome to the Latter Day Lens, your home for faith promoting, unscripted discussion of current events. If you'd like to reach out to us, send us a text message at the link in the show notes, or you can email us, latterdaylens at gmail.com. If you want to know more about us or listen to all of our episodes all the way back to the beginning, you can visit our website, latterdaylens.com. We'd love to hear from you. Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Latter Day Lens. It is so good to have you with us this week. I'm your host, Matt. With me as always is Shawn, and we are so happy to have back with us Melanie. Welcome, Melanie.

Shawn 0:51

She applauded herself. She gave herself an applause track.

Matt 0:55

It's Father's Day. So I said, This is all I want for Father's Day, Melanie. Join the podcast again.

Shawn 1:03

Oh, that's awesome.

Matt 1:04

Melanie, how does it feel to be a part of a podcast you never listen to?

Melanie 1:07

I think it's probably my favorite podcast I never listened to. So it feels pretty good.

Shawn 1:14

I like that, Matt, because it doesn't affect the way she behaves on the podcast, right? She doesn't listen and go, oh, Shawn said something, or Matt said. She just gets to be just purely authentic.

Matt 1:26

That's right. That's what we're all about on the podcast. Authenticity. So yeah, she doesn't. She didn't hear the listener mailbag last week where they said how much they like her. But I told her about it. So you knew, right, Melanie, people like you.

Melanie 1:40

Mm-hmm. I'm honored. She's honored.

Matt 1:44

All right. We're not opening the mailbag this week. We just got to get right to these topics. I chose topics that Melanie would be afraid to debate with us. So like I don't know if you guys have noticed this, listeners, but I always try to choose topics that are like specific to the people that are hosting the podcast. Some of you are nice enough to write in ideas, but I like I try to like cultivate a list of topics based on who's hosting with us so that it'll be really like interesting conversations. So now I I know that Melanie doesn't care about the World Cup and Shawn doesn't care about the World Cup, but I care about the World Cup. And so we have to talk about it. So first up, uh sports is a place where athletes can express their religious beliefs while respecting people from different backgrounds. In the World Cup, players are using prayer, symbols, and public statements to show their faith. In contrast, in Major League Baseball, when the San Francisco Giants hosted a Pride Night, pitchers wrote Bible verses on their pride themed hats, saying they wanted to express their beliefs, not show hate. However, some people saw that message as a protest against LGBTQ inclusion. Major League Baseball warned the players that their behavior violated league rules about uniforms. So on the one hand, it seems like the World Cup is celebrating expressions of religious faith. Is it appropriate for athletes to alter their uniforms to express their faith? Baseball seems to hate it. World Cup seems to love it.

Shawn 3:14

Matt, I love that you've picked a topic that is near and dear to your heart. Uniforms. This is a topic about uniforms. This is more important to you, so I'm glad you picked it.

Matt 3:25

I do love uniforms. I love I love uniformity. No, I think it's interesting, right? Like on the one hand, World Cup is like you want to express your religious beliefs like you're on a world stage, you have a platform you probably won't normally have. Go ahead. Yeah, they allow it, right? And baseball's like, hey, Pride Night's Pride Night. Wear the Pride hats. We don't need your Bible verses on our special Pride Night hats. I just wonder if that's wrong. If they should be like, yeah, go ahead, express your faith.

Shawn 3:54

I mean, isn't it a isn't isn't that a nice thing about what Matt taught me about federalism or in a free market, where you know, if if I choose that my career is going to be professional baseball player for the and I and my my aspiration is to go to that private company called the MLB, then I can freely choose to abide by their rules or maybe pick a couple of rules I don't abide by and incur, choose to incur a punishment, but still get to play baseball. You know what I mean? Like I think that obviously these baseball players are making enough money and feel strongly enough about something for them to be able to be okay with taking a penalty because I've got a message I want to send, right? Like if there's a penalty because you uh messed with your uniform and wrote a Bible verse, I'm sure they feel great at night going, I'm perfectly happy to pay $50,000 fine to express my biblical views. Where at the same time someone else can wear their their rainbow, you know, their pro LGTBQ things, express it, and they'll feel go to sleep at night going, I feel just as good about using the platform to express what I feel. I'm saying free market, federalism, I'm trying to like tie it into both.

Matt 5:04

No, I like what you're saying, Shawn.

Shawn 5:05

What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie 5:06

I don't know. I'm just like sitting with the idea of an organization that says it's against our rules for you to alter the uniform, but we're gonna penalize you in a trivial way for you doing that. Like if it's just a fifty thousand dollar fine and like it's no big deal to these baseball players, then why even have the rule, you know?

Matt 5:27

Yeah. Well, fifty thousand dollars is still fifty thousand dollars.

Melanie 5:31

Yeah, yeah. I also think that the choice of the baseball players to express their faith in that way doesn't sit super well with me. I think there's a difference between choosing to express your faith because of something you love and choosing to express your faith in opposition to something you dislike. And I think organizations should encourage expressions of faith because I love God and I want to show my love for him, and more strongly discourage expressions of faith that are I disapprove of another person's actions and I'm going to condemn them with my faith.

Shawn 6:09

Can I give you an example, Melanie, that just tests the that theory? So let's say the so let's say the c there's a there's a team that used to be called the Indians or the Braves. Which one is it, Matthew? Cleveland Indians, Atlanta Braves. Well, one of them used to have a mascot of a characterized um Native American. And what if, Melanie, so every day, every single day for many years, this this character of a Native American face was on there, and many people thought that was offensive. What if a major league baseball player said, you know what? I my beliefs are that this is offensive. And I'm a part of this team and I and I have these rules about uniforms, so what I'm gonna do is put a picture over that face of my one of my hero Native Americans, and it's gonna be a photograph of him that shows him in his like beauty and glory. And I'm gonna def defile my uniform in doing that. I'm gonna express my belief that way. Would you feel the same way in that situation as you do about the guys putting Bible verses uh during Pride Month?

Melanie 7:10

Um, I think I would be more in favor of that, but like it does poke some slight holes in my logic. I just think I have no issue with defiling the uniform. You know, like if you want to write a Bible verse on your uniform, go ahead and write your Bible verse, write the Bible verse on your uniform. But writing it on a rainbow uniform during Pride Month in direct opposition to the Pride Movement feels antagonistic. And I guess like the Native American example would be antagonistic too, but it's a cause I'm more in favor of.

Shawn 7:43

Okay, got it.

Matt 7:44

So so this is a issue where my my views have sort of evolved over the last maybe like 15 years. Matt, have they evolved or have they progressed? Which one? I don't they just changed, right? So I like to think that I'm well, so if I like 15 years ago, yeah, that would be, you know, before same-sex marriage was changed by the courts. Like early, like uh let's say 2008, when Prop 8 was going on in California. At that time, I remember clearly feeling like um I was upset because I said the gay community, they're trying to create a special status for themselves. Um, they're trying to equate themselves with racial minorities. And I don't believe that the LGBT community is the same as racial minorities because sexual orientation is a choice or it's a behavior. I guess is what I would say. Sexual orientation is a behavior, whereas the color of your skin is something you can't do anything about. And so I remember at that time I would feel like, okay, when you're telling me I need to celebrate Pride Month or I need to celebrate this, well, in my faith, like that behavior is sinful. And so I don't like you telling me that I need to celebrate behavior that I believe to be sinful. And so if I put myself back in that mind frame, then I say, I a hundred percent understand why these uh baseball players, if you're forcing them to wear a Pride Month hat, I could see why they would say, I would like the world to know that I don't share, I don't believe that this behavior is not sinful. I don't believe that this is behavior that should be celebrated. And so I think in some ways I'm really sympathetic to the baseball players and their expressions of faith because I never want to exclude expressions of faith in any context. And I I guess I can relate to that because however many years that ago that was, I really felt that way and I really believed that way. And I would have been upset at any organization that said to me, you cannot, you have to express support for this, and you're not allowed to express dissent when it's a deeply held personal belief. That to me seems wrong for baseball to do that, which is why I celebrate the World Cup, because I think that's how you ought to do it. Like, if people that you only get so many chances to be on a world stage, and if your religion and your faith is such a huge part of who you are, how dare an organization tell you you can't celebrate what you love, but you can't celebrate all these things that we love. Like to me, that's what's wrong. It's like I understand it's not like a government telling you that. I understand it's a private organization, but it still feels wrong for anybody to tell somebody else you have to express this and you're not allowed to express the way you really feel. What do you think of that, Melanie?

Melanie 10:41

I think I agree with that. I think the organization should not force them to wear pride-themed uniforms. And I think it should let them express Bible verses if they want to, but just kind of stay out of it.

Matt 10:56

Like if they're gonna make an exception, right? They're gonna change the uniforms for a night to celebrate something. They should players should have some latitude in expressing what they want to express on alternative uniform night. That's just what I think.

Shawn 11:10

Yeah, and I think I I guess I didn't realize that the soccer organizations are actually pro-free speech in this in this sense.

Matt 11:18

Mm-hmm.

Shawn 11:19

Yeah. And yeah, okay. I mean, it doesn't make me want to watch a three-hour soccer game with two goals. But I do admire that more. Yeah, I do. I agree with that.

Melanie 11:30

But Shawn, you could see so much running.

Shawn 11:33

So five-hour baseball game with zero home run. I don't watch baseball games, no way. I watch the highlights in ten minutes. I guess I could do that with soccer, which I do sometimes. Sometimes. The three-minute recap of action.

Matt 11:46

I I record it on my TV and then I fast forward to where there's a goal, and then I go back five minutes and watch the just before the goal happens.

Shawn 11:54

You know, they do that for you on YouTube. They just make highlights that you don't have to sit there for three hours fast-forwarding. Melanie, teach your dad.

Melanie 12:02

And then with the highlight reels, you can also see the shots that almost went in, but then didn't. Because that's like 80% of the game.

Matt 12:10

You can tell Melanie's husband does that, watches the highlights to the World Cup.

Melanie 12:15

He's made me watch a couple games too. He'd resent me presenting it that way.

Matt 12:19

I think he's glaring at me now, but Melanie gets the points for taking a stand while her husband was watching her take that stand.

Shawn 12:30

Nice.

Matt 12:32

All right, the next topic. So for listeners who don't know, although Melanie is a STEM major, she recently completed a course called History of the Middle East. So I'm expecting some heavy content from Melanie in this question.

Shawn 12:46

Yes, please.

Matt 12:46

Yes, please, Melanie. The 2015 Obama nuclear deal gave the United States strong protections against Iran developing a nuclear weapon through strict limits on Iran's nuclear program and extensive inspections. In return, Iran received sanctions relief. Uh, if you compare that to the 2026 memorandum that was signed uh this weekend, it focuses more on ending conflict and improving regional stability. The United States gets a ceasefire, promises that Iran will not develop nuclear weapons, and safer trade routes through the Strait of Hormose. It's Strait of Hormones, by the way. I did that on purpose. Well because I did my research. And they get the ability to sell more oil. They get new economic investment. I think it's $300 billion of investment. They're gonna have assets unfrozen and they get relief from sanctions that they had. So compared with the Obama deal, this new agreement offers the U.S. fewer specific nuclear restrictions, but gives Iran larger economic benefits. So here's the question: Who is better at deal making? Trump or Iran? We're not even gonna talk about Obama. Iran or Trump? Who's better?

Melanie 14:03

Can I make a snipe comment?

Matt 14:05

Yeah. Only if you have a lot of people.

Melanie 14:08

On the one hand, on the one hand, we have Trump who's written a book about the art of the deal. So like he's gotta be good at it, right? But on the other hand, we have Iran, who just had their leader assassinated and still somehow came out of this with a better end of the bargain. So I I don't know. Like we've got a book versus results.

Matt 14:29

And so you, with all of your extensive knowledge of the history of the Middle East, you can't you have no position on who's better at deal making other than just a Snyder mark?

Melanie 14:39

I I think the position makes itself.

Shawn 14:43

And the way your dad asked it probably uh leads it in a certain way.

Melanie 14:47

So see what my dad neglects to mention.

Matt 14:51

Go ahead.

Melanie 14:52

What my dad neglects to mention is that I was putting together a timeline of Iran and I went to him and I was like, I'm looking at these historical sources, and it doesn't make sense. Why did Trump declare war? And so all of my information about this nuclear stuff came from my father. It's not entirely impartial, but it's corroborated by numerous online timelines.

Matt 15:14

Yeah. So Shawn, you're gonna you're gonna also say Iran's better than Trump.

Melanie 15:20

Matt just objectively, Iran is better, right?

Shawn 15:24

Now I know this is a podcast where you get to formulate the questions and we're supposed to answer those questions. So I'll do my best, but I just I don't I don't know that that's the right it seems like a very trivial question to ask. Does it really? It does feel like that, right? Because in the end, there's no objective way to really measure who's the better deal maker in general. And it does feel like a little bit of I want for all my Trump listeners to be triggered a little bit. That's what it feels like a little bit. So well, I did phrase it that way intentionally.

Matt 15:57

Yeah, it's true. I did phrase it to to sort of trigger people, but also it is an interesting question.

Shawn 16:03

But but the the real way you would have you probably should have asked the questions without beating around the bush was hey, Trump has put together a worse deal than Obama did, and it seems like Iran has got the upper hand on Trump. Correct? That's really your question. Isn't that true?

Matt 16:18

No, no, it's it's actually I only phrased it Trump or Iran because I actually think Iran is better than every US president. Iran has outplayed us since 1972, when they or whatever it was that they took over. Like, whatever it is, Iran knows the limits of US support for military action in the Middle East. And and and the fact that Obama was so excited about his deal, which by the way wasn't a great deal, and the idea that that Trump is so excited about his deal, like over time it gets better. Like, we went into Iran and we decimated their military and Iran and their leadership, and Iran doesn't even have the capacity to strike us militarily at all. And the fact that they're getting a better deal now under Trump after this military action than what they had before we blew up so much stuff in their country, and the fact that we're agreeing, like they know how to play us. So it's not it wasn't really to me like a question of Trump or Iran, although that is a funny way to say it. Iran is just better at negotiating than the United States of America.

Shawn 17:32

So, Matt, question, just follow-up question to challenge that a little bit. To what end? Like if you say they've been great since the 70s, they're better in the since the 70s, to what end? What is their accomplishments that you can point to to say, yeah, they've they've done a great job better, better than we've done, and better than our presidents have done? To what end, right? They don't have nuclear weapons, they they don't need nuclear weapons.

Matt 17:54

What why do they don't even need nuclear weapons, right?

Shawn 17:57

What successes do you point to that shows that oh, they've negotiated better? What position are they in superior to anyone else that shows that they've done a good job at negotiating?

Matt 18:08

Okay, so let's say this. Prior to uh let's go back like in time five months, right? Before we went in and killed the Shah, if you had asked most Americans, hey, look, Iran is killing their civilians, Iran um is a terrorist regime, it seems like they've lost popular support. Do you think that there's a chance that somehow there could be a popular uprising and they would overthrow the Shah of Iran? I think there's a good chunk of Americans that would have said, yeah, there's a decent chance that that could happen. Yes. Today, nobody thinks that that could happen, right? Today, right. So Iran has established themselves as a permanent power, a permanent force in the Middle East that's not going away. And Israel was hoping to totally decimate them and get rid of the Iranian threat. And in exchange for all of this, what Iran, what Israel gets is an agreement that says that they can't go into Hezbollah and Lebanon anymore. Like every single thing that that the West will say tries to do to dethrone Iran, Iran emerges victorious and digs their heels in, and it's like, yeah, no winning.

Shawn 19:18

I mean, you answered it perfectly. Okay, I didn't expect you to be able to give us such a good answer. So I guess my follow-up question would be the timeline that I saw was look at us, we're just we just took out, like literally, you know, before those the straits of what is it? Hormose. Hormoes, before the straits of Hormoz started to become in the like be in the news, the view I think from a lot of Americans was, what? We just took out the the Ayatollah Khomeini? What? All their leadership is dying, like five guys every day? What? We've bombed all their infrastructure, bridges, all this stuff. We're like, dude, we I I guess this is all comes as a surprise, but if this was their goal, they're killing it. And then all of a sudden the Straits of Hormuz started to come into the news, and everything turned. So you're saying that the reason that Iran is such a good negotiator is because they really do have, from my layman's, you know, dum-dum perspective, they have the Straits of Hormuz for some reason. Like they control that waterway and whatever oil goes in and out of there, and that gives them all the power. Which by the way, that's the perspective, that's the perspective that it comes from that I see.

Matt 20:22

Right. Well, and and they didn't control it before, right? And and it was it was something they were not allowed to do under international law and international agreements. And and we didn't have the foresight to say, hey, let's figure out a way to stop them from doing it. But that's just the most recent example. It's like whenever we try to impose our will militarily on Iran, they find our Achilles heel and what it is that they can do that will make Americans say, we give up, we give up, whatever you guys want.

Shawn 20:53

Yeah, I guess you don't realize how much power they have until we're sitting watching our news every day watching it unfold, and in the end we realize, oh, Iran actually does have power. Yeah. Tell us, Melanie, what do you think?

Melanie 21:07

I think that we learned about Iran at the very end of the class and I was stressed. But I think all we have to do to understand how this played out is think about all of the justifications that were presented going into Iran. What were the objectives we wanted to bring about? And after assassinating the Shah, none of those objectives have come to pass. And Iran has arguably a better end of the stick than they had before. And I think that tells us all we need to know.

Matt 21:34

And it and this is just the most recent example. It happens time after time after time. We used to have an embassy in Iran, right? They took him hostages. This was in the Jakarter administration. They took him hostage, they killed a bunch of Americans, and we pulled out. We everything we've ever tried under every president of the United States always fails to bring about regime change in Iran. It fails to have them change their mind about Israel and whether or not Israel should be destroyed. Destroyed. It it makes the younger generation chant all the more fervently, death to America, death to Israel. And it does nothing to bring peace to the Middle East. So the question is who's better Trump or Iran? But the answer, in my opinion, is like, sure, Trump got played, but so did Obama. So did Biden. So did Bush. So does every because Iran, I don't know how to explain it. They just understand the psyche of the American public and they know how to like squeeze us in such a way that we're like, get us out of there. We want nothing to do with that.

Shawn 22:33

Wow. Geez, I've just learned a lot. I mean, I'm now curious to go back and look at all those conflicts and see what it is that they do. The question that I have now, after all this, is well, what what yeah, what is their position of strength that allows them to negotiate for their benefit? Right.

Matt 22:53

Why do we give them okay? So I can tell you right now, why is it we're giving them all of this? Because Trump wants to declare victory and move on. In time for elections. In time for the gas prices to go down for interim elections, right? Right. So Iran understands our political system better than our own politicians, perhaps. Um but it's just interesting to me that that like no matter who tries to go in and do changes in Iran, it it never ends up better for us than it would have been if we just left it at the status quo. I think the reason I bring it up is because there are plenty of uh Americans out there. Mike Pence just wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal. There are a lot of Americans out there that say we need to finish the job. We need to finish the job. And I just want to say, like, we should be a little cautious about this idea of let's finish the job in Iran or look, we've defeated them, let's extract more concessions from them. I say, let's be cautious. Like, I under there's always the people out there that say we should do more, we we could take more or whatever, but just be careful because it doesn't usually end up better. The the nuclear negotiations that are supposed to happen in the next 60 days with this memorandum of understanding, they were happening before we went in and killed their leader. So the idea that, oh, now we're gonna negotiate the end of their nuclear program, we were in the middle of that when we bombed them. So this idea that like we're gonna somehow use our military to get them to give us better concessions than what we had before. It didn't happen over the last four months, and I don't think it would happen again.

Shawn 24:23

This would be a fascinating case study in you know, five, ten years from now to see like what was the motive uh from Trump. What was his plan, and did it really fall apart like we think it did? Let's talk about the World Cup again. This topic is interesting, actually, really interesting.

Matt 24:39

Yeah, this one isn't really about the World Cup, but Japanese soccer fans are known for cleaning up their area after games, even when they're not responsible for the mess. At World Cup matches, they often stay after the game ends to collect trash and leave the stadium clean. This tradition began in the 1990s and reflects Japanese values of cleanliness, respect, and taking responsibility for shared spaces. Many people around the world have praised this practice as an example of good sportsmanship and community spirit. So this is the question. Should Americans incorporate this behavior into their definition of sportsmanship?

unknown 25:14

Yes.

Shawn 25:14

I mean, I'd love to hear both of your responses before I give mine. Yeah, let's hear Melanie and then Matt.

Melanie 25:19

I say yes. I think it's an important part of being a society and a culture and a community to clean up after yourself and sometimes take responsibility for things that are not yours. And I think it would be awesome to see professional athletes cleaning up a stadium after they're done, and also sports fans. I think it helps us all understand that we are people. And no matter how much money or privilege you have or don't have, it's your job to try and leave a place better or as good as you found it.

Matt 25:49

Hey, that's beautiful. That's a lot what I thought about. Like I think about when we have ward activities in the church, oftentimes you do the ward activity and then everybody sticks around to help clean up after the ward activity and put chairs away and things like that. And then I sort of contrast this in my head. I'm super happy for the New York Knicks fans that they finally won their the NBA championship, right? But some New York Knicks fans they celebrate by destroying property, making messes. Like something in our psyche as Americans like says this is somebody else's job to clean this up, and therefore I can do whatever I want to do. Or even like you like we have this little tradition where we pour Gatorade on the winning coach. Do we stick around to clean up that Gatorade? Whose job is it to clean up the mess that happens? Or we cut down the nets or whatever. So again, I think that it's it's not it's like the Japanese, it's a great part of their culture. I think it's a part of gospel culture to clean up after yourself. And so I think that Americans, we could do way better in saying when you go to an event, a sporting event, if you leave a mess, that's bad sportsmanship. Don't act like that.

Melanie 27:00

I want to provide an initial anecdote too. So this is not about sports because I'm not an athlete. Uh, but when my husband and I got married, we did things like a little bit non-linearly. We did our temple ceiling, and then we went on our honeymoon, and then we came back and did a ring ceremony and reception for all of our friends. And after that ring ceremony and reception, we like passed on the whole send-off thing because, like, why are we doing a send-off if we're not going on a honeymoon and it was stressful and I didn't want to make decisions? So I ended up helping to clean up some of my own wedding reception. And it was like it was a wild experience. I was exhausted. I didn't do anywhere near as much cleanup as I probably should have. But I think in that act of helping to clean up this huge celebration that I'd helped to plan, I gained more appreciation for all of the work that the people behind the scenes put into doing it. And I think like that's something that could be beneficial in the world of sports too, right? It's awesome to celebrate huge victories and great things, but if in the act of celebrating you forget all of the behind the scenes work that went into it, you're missing something important, like the gospel culture.

Shawn 28:11

Oh, that is a good anecdote. I do like that. Okay, then let me play a little bit of Devil's Advocate because so here's where I thought so. I'm glad you take the both take this stance. Um, I have a very good friend who served as mission in Japan. And for many years, because we go to the gym together, I drill him with questions about Japan. I'm fascinated with Japan, I'm fascinated with the culture in Japan. Like, for example, another beautiful thing we can point to, like this piece of culture that you just pointed out, the cleanliness, the the what's better for the whole. Like, did you guys know that crime in Japan is it's not that it's non-existent, but it is almost non-existent. Like it just doesn't like and and it's fascinating. There's these very beautiful, wonderful things about almost Matt. I really thought you'd bring in Zion or Law of Consecration to this discussion because but you didn't, I'm surprised. But I'm gonna make you do it. So I've gotten into very deep discussions with my friend about Japanese culture, and I ask him why. I'm fascinated. Why is it that crime in America, this free country, this wonderful, the great values and the principles of freedom? What is it about there's way more crime here. Way more crime. And yeah, we're sloppy, messy fools, right? We have fights at sports team games that are pathetic, people getting drunk, making messes, they don't clean up. Why? Why in Japan does this not exist? Without going into a really long discussion, Matt, I have to say this. So what he teaches me is this the Japanese culture has it it starts with this foundation of the there's a great pride in in the Japanese in being Japanese. In fact, if you look at the fruits of you know World War One, World War II, the Japanese express that they are the superior race. In fact, they they do believe that. They believe that being Japanese, that is your prime identity. And being a part of the whole, the big group of being Japanese, is your identity. And so if you don't make your actions primarily for the group, then there's shame brought to you. You dishonor you and your family if you don't stay and clean up the stadium, or if you do commit a crime. And there's such this overwhelming commitment to the collective that it it's it almost destroys any sense of individuality. But don't you think that's a gospel principle too? Well, this is the debate I've had with my friend over and over, like for a very long time.

Matt 30:33

Yeah.

Shawn 30:34

So I asked him, I say, so let's say, yeah, you remove this American print the cultural principle of individuality, individualism, and you do just become collectivist. What I asked him, what is the motive of the Japanese to behave this way, right? To be put put group first. And he would tell me all these stories about now, look, it's a beautiful thing until you're outside of the group. So for example, have you ever seen these videos online of people who are black who live in Japan? Oh, it's the saddest thing ever. If you are a foreigner, and especially if you are a foreigner who looks very, very different from Japanese, you are not part of the group. You are not accepted, you are shamed for the way you look, for being a foreigner. So, in fact, I asked my buddy who loves Japan, I says, Would you ever live there? He said, I could never live there because I find my self-worth in myself. I have an individual self-value, and and I can't there. I can you cannot. And so he says, They will always call me a foreigner there. They would never, ever accept me as a as because I'm not Japanese. In other words, they are very, very racist in Japan.

Matt 31:47

For sure. Yeah, and I had a friend, he's part white, part Japanese, and he kind of had to leave Japan because being part white, part Japanese, he was an outcast. He was rejected in his community. So it's it's true. There's that, but there is also this. So in the gospel, we uh we have high expectations of people, but it doesn't come with the same judgment if people don't conform to the standards. So so the reason why everybody stays after state conference and puts chairs away, it's not because everybody's watching who left and didn't put the chairs away. It's just like that's this is what we do. And so I think you can have a gospel culture of cleanliness and communion. You can have community without racism.

Shawn 32:27

But but the reason that Latter-day Saints do that after state conference is, and Melanie, you might get angry here, I think it is because of individual the scriptures teach that we need to seek out and work out our own salvation. It is not, Matt, you and I, you probably don't remember this, but we had lots of discussions in our mission. I would ask you, is it unrighteous to seek for your own salvation and exaltation? Right? Like we are taught to serve others, make others be put others at the first thought. But is it unrighteous for us to seek after our own righteousness, our own exaltation? And I think the scriptures teach us, no, you have to. You have to be self-interested. You have it's not evil to be self-interested, right? Did Jesus have self-interest when he came to this earth and suffered for all of our sins to receive his own glory? No. You don't think he had any self-interest?

Matt 33:14

I don't know. What do you say, Melanie?

Melanie 33:18

Um, I think I I don't know. Like I think we're taught that the things that bring us salvation are like primarily covenants with Christ. But in our behavior, that should be manifested as serving others. So we seek our self-interest by looking after the interests of others.

Shawn 33:38

But only if that self-interest is out of individual desire to be seen by God in a certain view. In other words, what my friend was telling me is that that oftentimes the Japanese culture says, I just don't want to be shamed, right? I don't want to be an outcast. So I'm going to do what is expected of me. And I don't know, Matt, you've always said to me, is it okay to do the wrong the right things for the wrong reasons? You always would ask me that question. Right. And my friend kind of my friend kind of suggests that that's what the cleaning up after the soccer stadium in Japan is. It's you're doing the right thing, but not necessarily for the right reason. You're doing it to not be shamed. You're doing it so you don't fit in the outcast category. You're not doing it because you love.

Matt 34:20

But but it doesn't have to be that way. The gospel teaches people a better way. And there's this component of the Russian Orthodox Church that I think it's in our church too, but I wish it was a little bit more, which is you cannot be saved alone, right? For our church, we often think of salvation as an individual thing. Like I'm going to do what I need to do to be saved. And in the Russian Orthodox Church, the idea is that the church is saved. We're saved as a group. We can't do it alone. We need each other. It's definitely there as a theology in our church, although we don't express it very often, but it's there, this idea that I go to church to worship as a group. Worship is not an individual thing that I do alone. I work together in a group and serve others and help others and build others because that communal work helps me to become a better person. So I think you can incorporate this idea of we as a group, like it doesn't have to be shame, but we as a group believe that this is how we ought to behave, and this is the expectation for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or for children of God, or for American sports fans. We just expect better of ourselves.

Shawn 35:32

So that'll never happen in America because of the lack of um communal culture and it's also individualistic, but it could happen in the church, and I think it does happen in the church.

Melanie 35:42

But what if we as America implemented monetary incentives for serving others? Because you can be doing the right things for the wrong reasons, but if you do it enough, I believe eventually you'll start to catch on to the right reasons.

Matt 35:55

Now she's sounding like a socialist.

Shawn 35:59

But hang on. But oh uh but is there that isn't that kind of what happens now? Like those who do stay after and clean up, they do it for monetary reasons.

Melanie 36:08

Oh, but it's not a monetary incentive, though. It's true. I swear the richest people I know are the most scrupulous. So if you told like some millionaire who's penny pinched his way there that if you stay and clean up your seat, you'll get an extra 20, I don't know, 10 bucks, he'd do it.

Shawn 36:27

Yeah, yeah, that's true. They'd make their kids do it too, just to teach them the value of money. Okay, so incentivize them. I don't know that that's I don't think that's socialism, Matt. I think that's capitalism. If I want something out of you, I'm gonna go.

Matt 36:40

I was thinking of programs like Teach for America or something like that.

Melanie 36:43

I don't know. I don't believe in your economic labels.

Matt 36:48

All right. I'm gonna give the points to Melanie and Shawn. You were both really, really you came way better prepared to that than I did. All right, here's the big question. Now, this is the one we've been building to this. Shawn's been excited about this. Melanie's afraid of this. I went I went to LDS bot to help me frame this question. So it's not doctrinally accurate or whatever. It's just a big question that I haven't thought about as much as you guys. Dad crashed. Dad bot crashed. Maybe Matt is a bot.

Melanie 37:16

Oh, I'd believe it.

Shawn 37:18

Yeah.

Melanie 37:18

He always claims that dogs are, so maybe he is.

Shawn 37:22

The dogs are AI robots?

Melanie 37:24

Yeah, really, really advanced AI.

Shawn 37:26

In your absence, Melanie just revealed something that was wonderful to hear. You think all dogs are AI robots?

Matt 37:33

I'm totally going to make sure we keep that stuff when I edit this. Okay, so here's the big question. In the Bible, predestination is the idea that God foreknew people and did predestinate them for his purposes. You can look in Romans chapter 8, verses 29 and 30, and Ephesians chapter 1, verses 4 and 5. Latter-day Saints generally understand that to mean that God can appoint or call people ahead of time based on his foreknowledge, but it does not remove agency. We still choose and we can accept or reject God's call. The Book of Mormon teaches this really plainly, where it says people were called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, but they were also left to choose good or evil. That's in Alma 13, verses 3 through 5. So, in short, God prepares opportunities and callings, but we still have the freedom to choose and to become. So here's the question predestination as clearly stated in the Bible, or foreordination as implied in the Book of Mormon.

Shawn 38:43

What I love so much about the I knew it, you'd laugh right after because so listeners, Matt is the genius at at uh poking, poking and trying to trigger. Because in the nature of his, he knowing how much I love scripture, and and he does too, but he knows my stances on how I I kind of see it as infallible, the whole quad. And so for you to pit the Bible against the Book of Mormon, he thinks it'll trigger me. It does trigger me. Is he right? He is correct.

Matt 39:13

All right, who wants to go first? Do you guys want me to go first, or do you guys want to go first? You should go first. Okay, that's your matt. Okay, predestination, because that's what it says in the Bible. Um God knows everything.

Shawn 39:26

Wait, wait, wait, pause. Pause. Are you going by the reformed Protestant definition of predestination? Or are you gonna be open-minded and talk a little bit about the real definition of predestination?

Matt 39:36

Well, I'll just explain predestination as I understand it.

Shawn 39:39

Okay.

Matt 39:39

Predestination means that I like the big picture things in my life are predetermined. So, like, and there's really nothing I can do to change it. Like, like where I work, where I live, who I marry, where I go to school, all of that stuff is predetermined before we're born. The only real choice I have, if we want to call it agency, is in my day-to-day personal life, will I choose to come closer to God or will I choose to get further away from God? And as I choose to get closer to God, then I develop a relationship with Him that helps me to understand the big picture, helps me to grow as spiritually. But that's the only real choice I have is God, closer to God, or not closer to God each and every day of my life, but everything else predestined.

Melanie 40:32

So can I ask a question to help understand this?

Matt 40:35

Yeah, sure.

Melanie 40:36

I feel like there's like I can see as you were younger, you made decisions every day to draw further and further away from God, right? Which fits into your paradigm. But then I don't think you would have ended up married to my mom.

Matt 40:48

Mm-hmm.

Melanie 40:49

So how do you reconcile that?

Matt 40:51

God knows. God knew what I was gonna choose. God knew He in order for the plan of salvation to work, there's how many billions of people have lived on the earth, Shawn, in the history of time? Seven billion? No, the seven billion now. There's seven billion people on the earth right now. In order to create a plan, an individualized plan of salvation for every single person. God has to know what we're gonna choose every single moment of every single day. So it's all predetermined. All of that is predetermined. He knew I was gonna choose whatever I chose.

Shawn 41:25

Okay, I love Melie, I love your little correction to Matt. Matt, I want you to interpret something really quick for our audience in Russian. I'm gonna say two words. Irunda ichipucha.

Matt 41:36

Uh those are my favorite words. It means like nothing. It's like uh nonsense, right? Yeah, nonsense. That's the good word, nonsense.

Shawn 41:44

Yeah, so yeah.

Matt 41:45

What you said is Irunda e Chipucha.

Shawn 41:50

What I said is what Paul said to the Romans. Okay, so you're going okay, so some history here. How the word predestinated in those two verses in the Bible were understood changed dramatically because of a man named John Calvin. John Calvin's re This is why I'm a Calvinist.

Melanie 42:08

Don't slander my boy Calvin.

Shawn 42:10

Oh no, you both like John Calvin?

Melanie 42:13

I actually don't think I do, but I like Calvin and Hobbes.

Shawn 42:18

I like Hobbes and Shaw. Every now and then the miles part of Melanie comes out strong. It just did. So what did Calvin do? Well, John Calvin interpreted predestination kind of like you, and basically saying, look, God is basically saying here that we as humans have no control over our lives. Now he's you're taking he's taking it further than you did, but he's basically saying there is no agency. There is none. God either chooses you and calls you to be saved, or he chooses you and calls you to go to hell. That's literally what it does. And so my neighbor, who's a Protestant, has been chosen by God to be saved. But because I choose, you know, the LDS religion, he's just I've been predestined. I was chosen to come to this earth to suffer for eternity. And you have no say in the matter. And I think the abundance of discussion in scripture about agency goes against that completely. So then that leaves a gap. Like, okay, well, how what was the original pre-Calvin understanding of predestination? And it's pretty simple, Matt. It's pretty simple. Mm-hmm. So it but those two, and your two verses basically teach it. Romans 29. Basically is talking about what is predestined, is not who Matt's gonna marry and not what job Matt's gonna have. It's very specific what is predestined. For him whom he did foreknow, he also did predestine to be confronted uh conformed to his own image, that he might be firstborn among many. And then it goes on to say how Jesus Christ was predestined. In other words, the plan of God, the whole plan of salvation, was predestined in Jesus Christ's role, the the way that it works, that plan was predestined. And then when you go into Ephesians and it brings us into the mix, it says, according as he hath chosen us in him. Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him, having predestinated us unto the adoption of the children of Jesus Christ to himself. In other words, we have kept our first estate. That's what that means. In other words, predestined was Jesus Christ to fulfill the plan of God. And Jesus chose that. So it's not like he was forced to do it. He chose it before the foundations of the world. So it's predestined. He is the one that predestined the atonement. And you are predestined to keep your first estate because you chose that. But everything else is either foreordained or just agency. What's the difference of foreordination and predestination? So there's this list of things that God foreordained for you to experience. And whether you choose those or not, you would be if you choose them not, then you're abandoning the opportunities and blessings that will come. Predestination simply says, Matt, if you choose to keep your first estate, which you did, and the evidence is that you have a body and you're on this earth, I've predestined you to come to the earth and partake in the plan of salvation that is enabled by Jesus Christ's atonement. You're for or you've been predestined to do that. That's all it's talking about. Okay. Melanie, what say you?

Melanie 45:12

So I want to ask Shawn if he thinks that somebody other than Joseph Smith could have brought about the restoration.

Shawn 45:18

Uh sure, I think so. I mean, many did, right? John Ta John Taylor did, and Brigham Young did.

Melanie 45:24

And you mean to be the res the Yeah, like if someone else could have been the prophet who had the first vision and translated the Book of Mormon.

Matt 45:32

Yeah, if Joseph Smith didn't choose that, if he didn't choose to go to the grove that day, somebody else would have showed up.

Melanie 45:36

Like, do you think there are other people who were foreordained to be the prophet of the restoration?

Shawn 45:42

Well, that's a good question. Foreordained or predestined, according to the definitions. Um you're saying foreordained.

Melanie 45:47

Foreordained, I think.

Shawn 45:48

Foreordained. I mean, I'm agnostic on that, because there's no doctrine, there's no teachings of scripture that would say otherwise. But when I when I read about the prophets all throughout scripture, they clearly are called to do the things they do, but are chosen because they're choosing to do it. Like David was called and chosen to do a certain thing, he chose against it. Like he rebelled against it with Bathsheba. Like that was his choice to fall from his foreordination. That's clear. So I think Joseph Smith, sure, he was foreordained and definitely could have chosen to fall from it and did make some mistakes. And in that case, was someone foreordained to step up in his place? I sure, yeah.

Melanie 46:28

Okay. And you think that person was just never given the opportunity because Joseph didn't fall in the necessary way.

Matt 46:35

They were like the um person in a play who waits around in case the person who's the lead gets sick.

Melanie 46:42

The understudy.

Matt 46:43

Yeah, there's a there's a foreordained understudy for every foreordained call.

Melanie 46:47

Or maybe Joseph was the understudy for somebody else.

Shawn 46:53

You're still not saying what you think, Melanie. Yeah. I mean, that's a good those are great questions. I mean, is it hard for me to think that if Joseph would have halfway into his calling, rejected it and sinned and fell away or whatever, that that perhaps Brigham Young wasn't foreordained to take over the thing that Joseph Smith came to do? Sure, I could I can go with that. Or I guess it your anecdote is more like at 13 years old, if or 14 years old, if Joseph would have rejected the call or his feelings to actually go into the grove and pray.

Melanie 47:23

If he drank alcohol during that one leg surgery, you know?

Matt 47:29

He's like, okay, Dartmouth Medical Center, I need the booze.

Shawn 47:34

You're asking me, would does God has God already foreordained someone?

Matt 47:40

Predestined is the answer. It's predestination. It was Joseph Smith, it was always going to be Joseph Smith, and there could be nobody else but Joseph Smith. No, that's wrong. There's no scriptural evidence of that. None. There's no scriptural evidence of foreordination.

Melanie 47:52

It's just have you read Abraham?

Matt 47:56

Yeah, of course.

Melanie 47:58

All of the world wasn't before thou wast born.

Matt 48:00

That's predestination. What you're all saying is predestination.

Melanie 48:05

No, it's not.

Matt 48:06

Just these mental gymnastics because we want to believe that agency is something more than what it is.

Melanie 48:11

See, I'm going to introduce you to another idea. I've been thinking about this for a minute, ever since someone told me that they believed God didn't know anything, and I was like, bro, what? Um and I was talking to my quantum professor.

Matt 48:24

Somebody kind of like famous, somebody like well known in the church?

Melanie 48:28

Perhaps. With no particular authority, though, just a lot of books.

Matt 48:34

Yeah, just an author.

Melanie 48:36

I was talking to my quantum professor the other day about quantum physics and whether quantum physics is deterministic, right? Do you know what's going to happen? And he was like, well, it's not individually deterministic, because you don't know what's going to happen with every quantum state when you observe it, but it is probabilistically deterministic. You can say if I observe this many particles in this way this many times, then about 50-50, I know what's going to happen, you know? Or you can say it's like 99 to 1. And I've started to think that I think that's how our lives are. God knows us really, really well. And he can say, I know 98% of the time in these situations, Joseph Smith would go to the sacred grove and have this experience and bring about the restoration. And maybe 2% of the time he won't, but I'm banking on that 98%. And he knows all of us as actors so well that he can predict our lives pretty dang well. But sometimes you have the prophecies in the Doctrine and Covenants where you have to act and course correct, because if you didn't course correct, everything would fall apart. But we're agents and we can choose and we can make these decisions. And God doesn't know us down to every single minute action, right? He doesn't care what I have for breakfast this morning. He's not gonna tell me what peanut butter to choose because that doesn't shape the scope scope of my life. But he knows that like 98% of the time Melanie's gonna go to BYU and marry the person she marries.

Matt 50:08

Okay, so let's take that idea a step further. If I only have agency in things that don't matter, like what I have for breakfast, is that really agency?

Melanie 50:17

We have agency in the things that matter too. But God knows us, and he knows that Melanie born to Matt and Sandra is gonna grow up to be obedient because of these different situations. And she's still making that decision every day, but God knows.

Matt 50:39

Yeah, I think he doesn't. It's not probabilistic quantum mechanics or physics for God. He knows exactly what it is.

Melanie 50:45

He knows the probabilities.

Matt 50:47

Yes, for every single person and every single decision. So that's right. He understands the probabilities so well that it's all predestined. So Matt. Because if you make a choice that that has all this, like changes everything, then that ruins everything. And he's in control of it all.

Shawn 51:03

So hang on, Matt. So whether Melanie's probability, you know, reason defining predestination is correct, or your Calvinist version of it is correct, I don't help me understand. That still doesn't mean that that agency isn't involved. In other words, just because Heavenly Father knows that I'm going to make the choices out of out of my being an agent and I'm gonna make the choices I'm gonna make, that is not predestining me. In other words, it's not destined to happen and he's and he's controlling me to make those happen. He just simply knows.

Matt 51:33

But again, when I exercise the manipulation pattern as a parent, I know that if I create a certain situation for my children, I give them, I give them two choices, and I know which choice they're gonna make most of the time. And so if I set everything out in advance and I say, you can choose this or you can choose this, and I know they're never gonna choose the other option, they're always gonna choose the one option. And I say, okay, now you can choose this or you can choose like a choose your own adventure. I can guide all of their decisions by the choices I place in front of them, and that is I could call it manipulation, but predestination makes more sense to me. That God knows it all in advance. But again, just because he knows it doesn't mean that he's manipulating it. Absolutely not. He doesn't have to manipulate it because he knows what I'm gonna choose.

Shawn 52:19

But that's the key, but that's the key difference between predestination and forordination is agency. So you either have to believe that he is controlling the choices you're making. He's already told you you're gonna marry Sandra. You have no choice in the matter. I already know you're going to do it, and I'm actually you don't have any agency in that matter. Or he knows what you're going to do. So he has the foreknowledge. He is an eternal being where we're we are finite, he's infinite. So he knows that. But you still are choosing it. He just knows you're going to choose it. But you don't have to.

Matt 52:51

So we'll take a step back to where my doctrine comes from. My doctrine comes from, it's also the book of Abraham, where it says, We'll create an earth whereon these may dwell, and we will prove them herewith to see if they will keep all the commands that we will give them, right? So the purpose of this life is it's like proving us, it's testing us. Will we choose God no matter what happens? And the context where it says Lucifer sought to destroy the agency of man is in that specific context where it's like, here's this plan, and we're gonna let people choose serve God, don't serve God in every situation. And Satan's plan was saying, no, people won't have that choice. So my theology is Satan wanted to destroy agency of man in the only place where we could actually have agency, which is I will choose to serve God and I will choose not to serve God. All the other choices were predestined. All the other choices were already determined. Where you're gonna live, what you're gonna do, all that stuff. You don't have agency in that stuff. But what if agency over the only thing that you think?

Melanie 53:59

Your decision to come to BYU Idaho was a choice to serve God?

Matt 54:03

Yeah, of course.

Melanie 54:04

And you could have chosen otherwise and been choosing not to serve God?

Matt 54:08

If I had chosen otherwise, ultimately I still would have ended up in the same spot. Big picture. I'm just saying, like in my life, I've tried. I've tried to change the outcomes of things, and you just can't.

Melanie 54:22

Really?

Matt 54:23

You've tried whether you're bad, whether you're bad.

Melanie 54:26

I'm sure I could find you a weed dealer in Rexburg, Dad.

Matt 54:30

Ultimately, right? You say, you know what, I'm gonna do this and become a billionaire, and it doesn't work out for you, right? You say I'm gonna do this. People like spend their lives spinning wheels trying to create some kind of different life for themselves. And if they could just accept the idea that it's all predetermined, ultimately, you're gonna end up where you were supposed to end up. However, you can choose how you get there. You can do it the way where you serve God and feel joy and peace and happiness in your life, or you can choose the other way where it's like miserable and awful and whatever, but you're still gonna end up in the same place.

Shawn 55:01

Melanie, I think Matt is playing a game here. Do you or does he actually believe this? I 100% believe all of this.

Melanie 55:09

I think he's deeply saddened right now, and this is the only way he can justify it.

Shawn 55:14

Okay, I love that you said that, Melanie, because that's how I respond to what you're saying. The idea that you don't that you think you don't have control over certain elements of your life, and you just go, Well, this is where I'm so predestined to be, is against God's will. I do think it's an excuse. I think it's a it's a way to. I'm not saying you specifically, but it's I think that doctrine is is bad because it's it's teaching people, yeah, you don't have control. So if something's happened to you or happening to you that's against what you want, you just accept it, just go with it. And that is it. So anti-scripture, Matt. Any discussion about predestination, the two that you just provided, speak nothing about that, Matt. Predestination is clearly finding a verse.

Matt 55:55

So Melanie, yeah, go ahead. I'm I'm finding a verse in Hebrews. So Melanie, you say what you have to say while I find this verse.

Melanie 56:02

I don't know. I think God has power to change and shape circumstances in our lives. And I think sometimes he may shape the circumstances in ways that make us feel stuck. But I think that we always have the power as agents to push back and try to change our circumstances. And whether he's sticking us there forever or not, it's on us to try and make the world a world we want to live in.

Shawn 56:33

And I love that. Matt, hang on, before you read yours, I love just to confirm what she just said. If you read all of Abraham 4, where it goes into detail about how God created everything, he ends each day or each creation period with the following. And the gods watched those things which they ordered until they obeyed. He watched them until they obeyed. They had a lot of agency.

Matt 56:56

He's like, Not yet, not yet, not yet. Now we got him. Waiting, waiting.

Shawn 57:02

But that's what the scripture says.

Matt 57:04

Well, okay, so here's my verse in Hebrews 13, 5. It says, Let your conversation be without covetousness, and be content with such things as ye have, for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. It's not sadness. It's not like an un it's not like, oh man, my life is so sad, it's so awful. It's God wants us to be content with the life. God loves each of us so much that the life he has blessed us with, though we don't get to pick what it looks like, it's a beautiful, wonderful life. And he will never leave us and he will never forsake us. So just be content with whatever job you have, with whatever money you have, with whatever life situation you have, because that's not the point of life. The point of life is knowing that God will always be with you and you can choose him and have that peace in your life. And that's way better than trying to change your life situation.

Shawn 57:56

So, Melanie, if your new wonderful husband, and we've heard he's amazing, but if tomorrow he decides I really want to go bowling with the boys every night of the week. That's just what I want to do. I feel predestined to do that. That's my life. And now you get to be with him maybe an hour a day. Matt's advice would be you've been predestined for that life. Be content, dude. Or let's take it even further. What if your husband starts to be abusive or something like that? Get out of here. Out of that marriage. No, be content.

Melanie 58:25

What are you talking about? What things should I have?

Matt 58:28

Well, so you can be you can choose content. That's fine. Ultimately, you will leave him. Ultimately, you have no choice. Ultimately you will leave.

Melanie 58:36

You have a lot of faith that God's merciful in that way.

Matt 58:39

I mean, these are big questions we're wrestling with. And I didn't think that I would persuade them because I've never persuaded anyone of my view, because we're all brainwashed into believing.

Melanie 58:50

Clearly, your manipulation pattern isn't working very well, is it?

Matt 58:54

No, I'm not as good as God at this. But hey listeners, we'd love to know what you think about it. It's been super fun. I know that Shawn he could do this for another hour. Like, this is Shawn's thing. He loves this. And every so often, out of gratitude to Shawn for joining this podcast all of these years, I've got to give him at least a topic that he likes to talk about. Thank you. He had to endure the World Cup stuff for a little bit today. So I was like, let's give Shawn a big question that he loves. We'll talk to you again next week. We hope you enjoyed this podcast episode as much as we did. The best way to continue the discussion is with your friends and your family. So we hope you'll share it with them. Subscribe. Let us know what you think of the podcast by reaching out to us by the links in the show notes. And remember, we love you listeners. Thank you for making us one of the most listened to podcasts in the entire world. Have a great day.