Matt (00:00.962)
Hey everybody and welcome to the Latter Day Lens. It is good to have you with us this week. I'm your host, Matt. As always, Sean is with me. And after a brief hiatus, Mark is back with us. Mark, welcome back. It's good to have you.

Marc (00:12.304)
Hello.

Well thank you, I thought you guys forgot about me.

Matt (00:18.54)
We did not. Mark's wearing a hat that says he's a veteran of the war in heaven. And how could we possibly forget somebody who fought so valiantly in the war in heaven? Mark, do you have any recollection of your time in that war?

Marc (00:27.652)
Well, thank you.

Marc (00:32.656)
A little bit has come to me. On the side of the hat you'll see it's a body recipient first class.

Matt (00:42.732)
Well, good, Mark. That's good. That puts you in special company. You and everybody else on planet Earth.

Shawn (00:44.101)
That's amazing.

Marc (00:48.419)
Well.

Shawn (00:48.419)
Why is there a, looks like a French flag on that hat.

Marc (00:52.816)
That's Little American.

Shawn (00:57.072)
there's American flag too. Gotcha. But in the front though.

Matt (00:58.084)
Marc (00:59.333)
with a beehive. That's red, white, blue.

Shawn (01:03.704)
that's American as well. Gotcha.

Matt (01:04.728)
That's why it felt French. That's why it felt French to you, Sean. But it could have felt Russian. That's their colors too, on their flag. Yeah. Okay, well we're gonna get to the mailbag. So there's a couple of things. So the first listener says, keeps saying that everybody needs to be taxed their fair share, assuming that the wealthiest Americans are paying any taxes at all. In the United States, we tax income, not wealth. This means that someone could inherit a billion dollars, never work a day in their life, and pay zero in taxes. Is that a fair share?

Shawn (01:09.54)
all Russian.

Shawn (01:33.231)
Sure, that's fair. The money was taxed. You make it sound like if Matt inherits any money, that money was never taxed. Unless you think that that money should be taxed over and over and over again, which it is. It's taxed over and over and over again through a sales tax, through an income tax, through a property tax. It's over and over again. So yeah, I don't have any problem. I do not think that people should be taxed on their inheritance.

Matt (02:01.602)
I have no position on this particular issue. The listener called out Sean and so thanks for responding.

Shawn (02:07.716)
Yeah.

Matt (02:09.804)
All right, the other listener says, love listening, but the podcast, which is supposed to be a discussion between all sides, is missing a needed voice. You discussed ranked choice voting and all three hosts come into the discussion loving ranked choice voting. Same thing in the discussion about unions. All three hosts already love unions. You start every discussion dismissing MAGA Republicans because the obvious starting point is that they are crazy or not worth representing.

Here's the problem with this. Even though I'm not a MAGA Republican, I still want to hear their voice on issues rather than dismissing them. I want thoughtful, reasoned voices that actually represent all sides.

Marc (02:52.398)
So here I am.

Matt (02:53.614)
There you go, Mark's a MAGA Republican. I think Sean, they're calling you out. You're not representing conservative voices well enough.

Shawn (02:54.084)
Hahaha!

Shawn (03:01.413)
I mean, that's fair. That's fair. don't, I wouldn't say that I'm trying to represent that. Like isn't the whole point of Latter-day Lens this idea that if you're giving your loyalty to any man-made, power-hungry, profit-driven group like the Democrat party or the Republican party or the MAGA art of the Republican party, then you're focusing your identity on probably the wrong thing. Isn't the whole point of Latter-day Lens is let's search scripture and let's find what

prophets have said about any given idea or topic. So no, I'm not going to adhere to, well, I'm a member of the MAGA arm of the Republican party. Mark, you may disagree. Maybe you like the idea of building your identity around a movement like that.

Marc (03:49.678)
Well, I'm not building my identity around it.

Matt (03:54.658)
He just likes them. He agrees with them.

Shawn (03:55.138)
Marc (03:55.757)
Yeah, it's fun.

Matt (03:59.651)
Yeah.

Shawn (03:59.781)
What the fuck?

Marc (04:00.686)
It's like I prefer McDonald's over Burger King. That doesn't make it my whole personality.

Shawn (04:05.509)
Do like everything the McDonald's has to offer? Everything? All the stuff, 100 % what McDonald's has to offer? Do you stand up and go, I'm a McDonald's guy through and through?

Matt (04:05.88)
Yeah.

Marc (04:15.616)
If the other option is Burger King, then yeah.

Shawn (04:18.621)
okay then. Okay then.

Marc (04:20.514)
Burger King tastes like dookie.

Matt (04:22.958)
I think what I would say to the listener is I don't know what people's opinions are going to be on issues in advance. I just try to pick issues that I think are topical and things that there could be differing perspectives on. And I certainly don't try to exclude MAGA Republicans from the podcast. And I think they have reasonable important views to express. I just don't know who's going to have those views in advance. So I agree like

Shawn (04:49.093)
I can repent a little bit and say sometimes I probably should be a little more forthright in my thoughts or opinions that kind of lean on the side of MAGA. So if the listener would like, I'm willing to do that. I'll be a little more like, today for example, we're gonna talk a lot about MAGA, right? So I'll be very forthright on where I stand with MAGA.

Matt (05:08.674)
That's true. That's true.

Matt (05:14.24)
Okay, good. this is Sean's time to repent, I suppose. I don't know. If there's something I agree with where Maga and I align, I'm happy to express it. I'm not afraid of that label or anything like that, but.

Shawn (05:18.381)
Yeah, yeah.

Shawn (05:26.181)
Neither, that's the point, right? But there's no way, unless you're Mark and it's McDonald's or MAGA, that you're gonna agree with everything that is in a group, right Mark?

Matt (05:29.144)
I was-

Matt (05:36.768)
I agree with Mark about McDonald's. I take McDonald's over Burger King.

Marc (05:40.822)
Yeah.

Shawn (05:41.477)
That's not the question. The question isn't, you like MAGA better than the Democrats? And therefore you're extremely loyal to MAGA. That's not the question.

Marc (05:51.695)
What was the question?

Shawn (05:52.997)
The question is, why not have a very disciplined and like a representative of MAGA on the panel so that they have that side represented? And my answer was no, because no one is ever going to be 100 %... shouldn't be 100 % loyal to any one party or group.

Matt (05:55.917)
Alright.

Marc (06:14.529)
When you have an entire CNN panel and then there's like the daughter of Dick Cheney comes on to be the Republican, that's not really a fair representative of the Republicans, it?

Matt (06:26.008)
Or least not some Republicans, right? She's a certain kind of Republican.

Marc (06:29.557)
Yeah, Democrat.

Matt (06:31.566)
All right. Well, let's see how this goes this week. So Trump recently hit the one year mark of his first term. So it's, can look back and say, how has he done in his first year in his second term? So I found this article from CBS news. They say nine things that Trump has done and, people who follow him more closely can maybe change it or add to the list if they want to. So number one, slashing the federal workforce with Doge and those sorts of things.

Two, setting scores and rewarding allies, the Justice Department going after Democrats maybe, and him pardoning the January 6th people. Number three, mass deportations. Number four, flexing military power overseas. Number five, tariffs and shifts in the way the US functions in the global economy. Six, expanding presidential power because he's relied heavily on executive orders. He's done 228 in the first year alone. Seven,

Bending institutions, so the way that the Trump administration pressures universities and media groups and news outlets to align with his policies. Eight, his deal making strategy. And nine, remaking Washington's image. So the monuments he's putting up and remodeling the White House and stuff like that. So you don't have to agree with that whole list of nine, but which of the stuff that Trump has done in the first year do you guys like?

You guys can go first, I'll go last.

Shawn (07:58.681)
Haha, Mark you want to tackle some?

Marc (08:01.521)
I pretty much liked all of those two varying degrees, but yeah, I'm good with almost all of that.

Matt (08:08.118)
Is there any that you wish you would do more of or less than, alasaf, Sean? Or Mark?

Shawn (08:08.185)
Yeah?

Marc (08:12.648)
I already forgot what the ones in the middle were, but I'm good with the deportations, I'm good with cutting down the government size, his deal making strategy, I understand, is not always popular, but does it work? Yes? Well then, who cares how it happens? You don't watch the sausage get made, you just happen to enjoy your brats on the Fourth of July.

Matt (08:34.624)
Okay. So Mark is admittedly Maga and he's happy with everything. What about you, Sean?

Shawn (08:35.365)
Ha ha!

Shawn (08:40.569)
There you go. Well, I can't answer it unless I go really quickly through each one. So the slashing the federal workforce, great. I think it's good. It's okay to, like it's so easy for government to get locked into their programs, into their jobs. So I think it's a good thing to audit and cut things. So I think I'm actually happy with that. Settling the scores and rewarding allies. I think that's what most, here's the truth, Matt, and you may disagree with this.

Marc (09:03.756)
Okay.

Shawn (09:07.713)
I think the reason that Donald Trump and MAGA exist is because they became popular in response to the somewhat extreme version of democratism that Biden, Harris, and the rest of them put out there. And so a lot of this is in response to, was enabled and in response to what that administration did. And so I'm looking at like settling scores and rewarding allies. I don't know that Trump would be doing that as much if it wasn't in response to the

Marc (09:33.645)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (09:36.803)
the exact same thing that was done to him for so many years.

Matt (09:42.19)
Should I respond to that or should I wait till you say all of them, Sean? I'll just respond to that. Trump broke the law. Trump is a convicted felon. Trump couldn't even vote for himself in the Florida elections. That has nothing to do with weaponizing the Justice Department and everything to do with Trump's own decisions when he chose to break the law. I think pardoning January 6th people was a horrible idea. That sends a terrible precedent because January 6th was an attempt to overthrow the United States government, an attempt to subvert

Shawn (09:45.87)
It's up to you!

Matt (10:11.788)
the will of the people in the 2020 election and nobody who participated in that should be pardoned.

Shawn (10:14.643)
So

But that's what my point is. pardoning your son who potentially played a role in whether or not Trump was elected or not with the whole Russian thing and the laptop, there's all kinds of reasons that enabled, or there's all kinds of things that happened in the Biden administration that enabled Trump's crazy boldness to be like, I'm going to do that back. I'm going to do these pardons. I don't know that he would have done those things if there wasn't such blatant, for example, pardoning.

Marc (10:46.379)
And if I might jump in on that, the idea of him becoming a felon. Well, yeah, when you make a law that goes retroactively and says anyone who's named Donald Trump that did this thing on this day is therefore guilty. Well, darn the luck that turns out they got him and the pardoning. Overwhelmingly, most of those people did not get a fair trial as you really dig into it and study the facts. So it's not just a pardon of, those are my people. It's a, know what this was political just

judicial whatever I have a cold so I can't remember words right now but the point is was was it was lawfare and

Matt (11:24.782)
Trump is a convicted felon because he paid Stormy Daniels to try to influence the election. And the way that he went about paying Stormy Daniels was a violation of election law. And he was convicted of that in New York by a jury of his peers. That wasn't a change in laws. Okay. I mean, we either have a justice system.

Marc (11:42.738)
New York.

Marc (11:47.423)
New York just elected a communist. I don't trust anything from those people anymore.

Matt (11:53.314)
Well, Mark, there are more Republicans in the state of New York than there are in the state of Idaho. So it's not like there's no Republicans in the state of New York.

Marc (11:58.858)
Well, that's because there's more people. There's like seven people in Idaho and you're, I was there.

Matt (12:04.032)
Okay. Okay. So Mark, I'm going to trust the judicial system that they can find 12 jurors that can look at the evidence without political bias. mean, I will just say like to the point that they pass some law retroactively to attack Trump. That's not true. The crime that he was convicted of, the evidence of that crime was produced while Donald Trump was president of the United States.

Shawn (12:17.167)
hahahaha

Marc (12:30.697)
Thank you.

Matt (12:32.622)
under a Justice Department of a people that he pointed to those positions. They didn't fabricate or find new evidence. They just use the same evidence that his Justice Department found about what he had done in the 2016 election.

Marc (12:45.162)
Okay.

Matt (12:48.334)
Alright, so what else do you like?

Shawn (12:48.726)
I'm not.

Marc (12:50.214)
I don't see a big victim there versus Joe Biden's son messing with Ukraine and influencing, really influencing the election. Nobody was shocked like, what do you mean Donald Trump slept with a, we all knew that, no one cares. But Hunter Biden's influencing elections with Ukraine and the laptop, that's actual stuff versus, Trump's a bit of a philanderer. Okay, and the sky is blue.

Matt (13:18.904)
The difference is Trump committed a crime. Joe Biden didn't commit a crime. If Hunter Biden comm- okay.

Marc (13:23.261)
Sort of, and yes he did.

Shawn (13:26.405)
So, so speaking of your committed to punishing people who commit crimes, let's talk about the deportations and the illegal immigration, shall we?

Marc (13:35.683)
Ho ho, got him!

Matt (13:35.79)
Sure, sure. As soon as Mark tells me what crime any undocumented immigrant has committed in the United States, I'm happy to pursue justice against them.

Marc (13:50.171)
Either overstaying a visa or crossing border illegally.

Matt (13:53.73)
Which, is that a crime?

Shawn (13:55.269)
Yes it is a crime, Matt! Just because it's a misdemeanor doesn't mean it's not a crime!

Marc (13:55.282)
Yes.

Matt (13:57.012)
It is not a crime. It's not a misdemeanor. It's not a misdemeanor to overstay your visa.

Marc (14:02.671)
It is, it's part of federal judicial code 18.

Shawn (14:03.363)
It is.

Matt (14:06.272)
It is not. It is not a misdemeanor to overstay your visa. It is a misdemeanor to enter the country illegally after you've been deported. undocumented immigrants have committed no crime, which is why, by the way, they said we're only going to go after people who have been accused of or indicted on other crimes. That's initially how it was because overstaying your visa is not a misdemeanor.

Shawn (14:25.145)
Hang on. Yeah, but they... Okay, but you're saying entering the country illegally, you're agreeing is a breaking up. It's a misdemeanor. Okay, well there you go.

Matt (14:34.702)
Sure, but an undocumented immigrant did not enter the country illegally, There are a number of legal means in which a person enters the country and then becomes an undocumented immigrant later on.

Shawn (14:38.789)
What do mean?

Shawn (14:43.725)
You think that I'm-

You're saying that the majority of people who have entered the country today who are not documented entered legally, not illegally? No, come on, what are you talking about?

Matt (14:53.612)
Yes, correct. Look at their judicial records. Look at what they're charging them with. That's right. They entered the country legally.

Shawn (15:02.641)
you're saying the people that are being deported today are the, are you're saying that the majority of them are people who have entered the country legally? don't, I mean, I mean, again, like if, if I don't, I don't believe that you'd have to show me evidence of that. It's, it, does feel like the basis for someone being removed or deported would be according to everything I'm watching or seeing and reading would be you entered the country illegally. You don't have legal.

Matt (15:10.254)
and committed no crimes.

Shawn (15:31.971)
documentation to be here so by law we have the right to remove you.

Marc (15:36.956)
Thank you.

Matt (15:37.067)
Those are two different points, Sean. Those are two distinctions. Those are not the same thing.

Shawn (15:42.051)
the removal versus the deportation.

Marc (15:44.041)
It's distinction without difference, because if the visa says you can stay for 10 minutes and it's now been 12 minutes, I have every right to say you must go now.

Matt (15:52.802)
That is not, but there's no law that they've broken by staying for 12 minutes.

Marc (15:59.056)
it is.

Shawn (15:59.238)
Well, I'd like to see I mean, I'm willing to change my mind on it, Matt, if you can show me where to study that everything that I've studied or read says that the laws that yeah, if you're not here through the proper legal channel, if you don't enter through a port of entry and go into that process, or if you do overstay a visa, that's a misdemeanor that's breaking the law. I'm gonna show me the okay, take that one away just entering the country illegally. And then I don't

Matt (16:19.123)
It is not a misdemeanor to overstay a visa.

Matt (16:26.198)
Okay, no.

Shawn (16:27.341)
I don't believe it all unless you show me some really good data that the people that are being removed or deported right now came in legally.

Matt (16:34.094)
Look at their cases and look at how many of them that have been deported. Judges have said you have to let that person back. You didn't have any right to deport that person. My guess is it's 90 % of the people that are being deported committed no crime.

Shawn (16:43.043)
What percentage is that happening to?

Shawn (16:48.196)
What?

But the crime of entering the country illegally is probably what they're basing

Matt (16:54.892)
They didn't commit that crime. They entered the country legally. Let's take the example.

Shawn (16:59.641)
Why do you think, what's the motive do you think? Here's why I'm skeptical of what you're saying. And I'm open to looking at data if you could provide some, but here's why I'm skeptical. What motive would the Trump administration have of taking a legal citizen and deporting or removing them? What's the motive there? Yeah.

Matt (17:19.288)
Are you serious? That's the question you're asking is why they're doing this? Well, the first motive that you're not going to like is racism, blatant racism. The second motive that you're not going to like

Shawn (17:22.617)
Yeah, what would be the motive? Yes.

Shawn (17:28.453)
Hang on, on, hang hang on, hang Hold on, hold on, hold on. Who's racist? Who's the one sitting in the... So Donald Trump is... Hang on, so they're sitting up top going, hang on, so you think that they're sitting in a room going, what are we gonna do today to get rid of any dirty, gross, non-white person? You think that's what they're doing?

Matt (17:33.304)
Donald Trump is racist. Kristi Noem is racist. Stephen Miller is racist.

Matt (17:49.432)
I mean, you can frame racism however you want to frame it, Sean, but yeah.

Marc (17:52.645)
Well especially all the Hispanics that work in Border Patrol and ICE, those are guys who just hate Hispanics. I'm surprised we don't have a wash of suicides because they're Hispanics.

Matt (17:58.284)
I mean, you can define racism.

Shawn (18:00.335)
How do you define it in this? How are you defining it in this case?

Matt (18:04.718)
I define it as a dislike of minorities, racial minorities. And yes, I think that there's a strong dislike of racial minorities in the Trump administration.

Shawn (18:12.535)
What evidence? What evidence? Give me one piece of evidence they have.

Matt (18:16.11)
I'm going to start with deportation of thousands of people who are here legally.

Marc (18:20.753)
They're not your big league because...

Shawn (18:21.28)
That's not evidence of racism. That's evidence of, hang on, he campaigned for so long on, we are going to have a strong border, build walls, we're gonna enforce the laws, and we're going to deport people the way that the last five presidents have. That has nothing, so is Obama racist? Hang on, you gotta answer this. They have a long way to go.

Matt (18:24.077)
Okay.

Matt (18:32.546)
as

Matt (18:38.742)
The Trump administration is doing it differently. I'm telling you, the Trump administration is doing it differently. They're targeting.

Marc (18:43.951)
Yes, they're deporting a lot fewer people. And in 1996, Congress passed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which imposed penalties on those who stay in the United States beyond the period authorized by the Attorney General. Part of that includes overstaying your visa is subject to immediate lawful removal from the United States of America. Thank you very much.

Matt (19:05.646)
Imposing penalties and saying they need to be deported is not the same as saying that they've committed a crime. They did not reclassify those people as criminals guilty of a misdemeanor. That's what I'm saying.

Marc (19:19.15)
be all right well even then even if we grant that they are still in need of being removed because they've overstayed the visa and the penalty is to be removed.

Matt (19:26.478)
I agree that the law says that if you are undocumented, that there's legal right to deport a person. I agree with that. But I'm saying that when a person makes the argument that they're criminals or that they broke the law, that's not accurate.

Shawn (19:43.631)
Fine, let's just use that designation for anyone who's entered the country illegally. That's a misdemeanor. Let's just designate for those. That's fine.

Matt (19:48.972)
Okay. But that's like, that's like 10 % maybe of the people are entered illegally. You've got kids that were adopted from Korea as children came here completely legally and never filed the paperwork to become citizens or to become naturalized citizens. You've got people.

Shawn (20:04.079)
I don't know. I agree there's a lot like many people who have come in through that process, but I don't think your number of 10 % have entered through a border illegally is at all accurate. Come to California.

Marc (20:04.282)
Why not?

Matt (20:13.378)
Well, the reality is we don't know because they're not adjudicating the cases. They're not adjudicating the cases, right? So we don't know.

Shawn (20:19.877)
Okay, but why default to 10 %? That sounds crazy. Come to California.

Matt (20:22.828)
because that's based on

Marc (20:22.841)
And my question is, if you've been here 30 or 40 years, why didn't you fill out the paperwork at any point in the last 30 or 40 years?

Matt (20:31.98)
I'm not saying they can't be deported legally. I'm just saying they're not criminals. I'm just saying they're not criminals.

Marc (20:34.625)
Alright, that's what we're doing, we're deporting.

Shawn (20:36.911)
So Matt, here's where I'm sitting on this. Just to be clear for our listeners too, I'm with you, Matt. I think immigration should be an open, we should have a legal process that's a safe process, but get everyone here, anyone who wants to be here, open those borders, get them here, make it easier for people to live here, become citizens. I love that we're a country that has so much to offer the whole world. Please get here.

Like I think all of our administrations have failed to make a legal and safe process that enables everyone to come here. Like I'm with you over immigration. People should be here. This is a blessed country. Get here. okay, well go ahead.

Matt (21:19.32)
guys so mark is the points I'm giving mark the points

Shawn (21:23.447)
why?

Marc (21:24.575)
I didn't expect that.

Matt (21:26.126)
Mark is a faithful Latter-day Saint who likes all the Trump administration policies and I don't know. I don't know. I gotta give someone the points because we have to move on. So I'm giving them to Mark because I like him.

Shawn (21:34.165)
Marc (21:37.071)
Well, I'll take them.

Shawn (21:41.541)
Well, you gave us like 10 points to cover. You can't cut us off. You can't ask a question with 10 points and then be like, wow, we can probably, have 30 seconds.

Marc (21:41.753)
Thanks.

Matt (21:45.292)
I'm sorry. We only-

Marc (21:49.473)
And yet, I got all the points.

Matt (21:53.206)
Mark out all the points. We have a time limit on our podcast, We're not a forever podcast. Who you giving the points to, Sean?

Shawn (21:56.271)
Okay, okay, we'll give him, I will give him, okay, I'll give him the points here.

Matt (22:03.021)
Good job, Mark. Okay. Next up. It's also because it's 365 days into the term. We can look at Trump's approval rating and how they've changed over time. And it doesn't look good for Trump. His approval rating is down. So if you go approval minus disapproval, Trump's at negative 19%. So 19 % more people disapprove of Donald Trump than approve of him. And it just continues to decline.

Marc (22:04.836)
Arrrrgh!

Matt (22:30.83)
I put a link to an article in The Economist that breaks down all of the different elements of Trump's approval rating. There's not a single issue where Trump's approval is higher than his disapproval. And there's not a single demographic group where Trump's approval is higher than his disapproval. Even among old white men, approval and disapproval are 50-50. So that would be his best shot, right?

I'm not including religious groups. There might be religious groups where his approval is higher than his disapproval. So I don't think we should rate like president shouldn't worry too much about public opinion, right? I don't think they should govern based on public opinion, but it is rare.

Shawn (23:11.363)
or the accuracy of polling, right?

Matt (23:15.95)
Oh, I have no doubt about the accuracy of this polling. Like this isn't a single poll. This is like poll after poll after poll shows the same trend. So, but it is rare for a president to be underwater on every major issue and every major demographic group. that sense, Trump is a very unique president. So my question is, are people's expectations just out of whack or does Trump need to do something like make some changes or do something to get people to be more happy with what he's up to?

Shawn (23:22.085)
Okay.

Matt (23:45.344)
Mark's happy, why isn't everybody else happy?

Shawn (23:49.381)
Well, here's, I to me, I wake up every day and just check my news and here, and I like checking both sides of, you know, the extremes as well as trying to find a middle. It's so fascinating that every single day, if I turn on NPR or MSNBC now, the message is this is the worst people. These are the worst people on the planet. The world is going to end. Our country is dead. And then I'll go over to Ben Shapiro or I'll go over to Fox or I'll go over to some other and they're just gleeful. They're just so happy with everything that's going on.

You've got really, really, really disappointed people who say the world's ending and you've got happy people are saying that there's nothing better.

Matt (24:26.04)
Yeah, but why is it the people that are saying the world's ending? Why is it that most Americans are believing them and not believing the other side?

Shawn (24:33.717)
Most is very relative, right? He's in his mid 40s, right? Approval rating. That means that of the people that were polled, of the people that were polled, almost half are unhappy with him. Well, look at the election results. It's always half and almost half and half. I don't think that plays, I don't think these polls play a very big role in how elections turn out. They don't, they clearly don't, right?

Matt (24:39.576)
But you got every-

Marc (24:48.484)
Okay.

Matt (25:01.006)
Not, I'm not talking about elections, but if you talk about representative government or what a president ought to do, like you, would hope, you would hope a president would not aim to make every demographic group in the United States angry with him.

Shawn (25:07.336)
I don't think of the job.

Shawn (25:14.297)
Yeah, but I don't think that the role of the presidency is to make everyone happy. That's never going to happen. live in a... He's making... Yeah, but 46 % approval rating is not... What is it, 42? I was just reading it.

Matt (25:18.84)
Well, he's not making anybody happy. There's not a single group where they're more happy with him.

No, it's not 46. It's low, low, low forties. Maybe even in the thirties on some polls. What do you say, Mark?

Shawn (25:32.325)
Alright.

Marc (25:33.877)
I say that if I just call a whole bunch of liberal boomers in New York City and ask them their opinion, they're all gonna say, he's horrible. And then I can tell you, well, I polled 10,000 people. They're all unhappy, but I just don't mention.

Shawn (25:47.267)
Matt, to Mark for piling on the idea of being skeptical about polling. There we go. I like it, Mark.

Marc (25:54.585)
thank you. Yay! I'm having a fun day today.

Matt (25:56.234)
geez. All right. I think it's funny that both of you, your answer is we shouldn't trust polling as if like it doesn't have any useful information out there.

Shawn (26:07.385)
Well, but I did answer to though. do think that, okay, fine. If it's in its four, I don't think a 42 approval rating is means anything.

Matt (26:14.606)
Okay. If you look overall, so, so if you say on inauguration day, Trump was at 52 % and now he's at 38 % in that same poll, the same polling organization. Mark's answer to that is that polling organization decided to just ask a bunch of liberals in New York what they think. That's what you're saying, Mark. They changed who they were asking the questions to.

Shawn (26:29.913)
Yeah.

Marc (26:31.107)
Well, I think that that is possibly part of it. I know I've never been polled, first off, so I've never known anyone that's actually been polled. they're just making it up. But number two, when the whole news media is unified in one voice of just orange man bad, then yeah, it's going to influence people, even though it shouldn't, because they're only hearing orange man bad and they're never hearing anything else.

Shawn (26:40.549)
the

Matt (27:00.706)
You know some of these polls are conducted by Fox News.

Shawn (27:03.301)
What's your answer to it? Now let's assume that the polls are correct and it's giving us good insight. What is your opinion? Does that mean that he should be changing things up or do you think it means he's losing his base?

Marc (27:03.746)
If I see the s-

Matt (27:14.862)
It all depends on what he wants. For a hundred percent, Trump has lost the middle. Trump has lost Democrats. He never had him. He's lost independence. And then whatever strides the Republican party thought they made in the last election with let's say Latinos or African-Americans or women, or even uneducated, lower educated white men, all of that has gone away. Those people have turned on.

Shawn (27:35.333)
Do you think that the real evidence of if what you're saying is true, the real evidence would it be reflected in the midterms coming up as opposed to polls? So that'll be the real like put a poll aside, like let me be skeptical of polls. Let's see what happens in the midterms and that's probably a much better indicator of do people really like what's going on or not.

Matt (27:45.206)
Yes, for sure that'll be... yeah.

Matt (27:57.055)
I maybe. I mean...

Marc (27:58.003)
Yeah, because remember what did the polls say in 2016, but that Hillary Clinton would have a 50 state sweep and whoops. enough of them did. And how did the polls read this past election? Kamala's got it in the bag. And what what do know? He got it.

Matt (28:05.132)
Well, no, the polls never said that.

Matt (28:15.362)
Well, so polls and voter turnout are two different things, right? So that's why I think that you have to just like, I think you can just look at the change in tenor in Joe Rogan as an example, right? Joe Rogan used to be much more positive about Donald Trump and the way he talked about him than he is now.

Shawn (28:30.981)
Are you gonna pretend that you watched Joe Rogan now? Are you gonna pretend that you've even watched 30 seconds of Joe Rogan?

Matt (28:36.814)
I wouldn't say, I'd say a little more than 30. I don't watch a lot of Joe Rogan, but would you agree that he's changing the way he talks about Trump?

Shawn (28:38.629)
Watch Watch barely hardly at all me in a cup on the on the ice He's commented on that and deviates slightly, but no, I don't think I watch I watch Joe Rogan I don't think he's deviated that much now

Matt (28:59.384)
But you've deviated, Sean, in the way you talk about Trump in the last year. Enough that our listeners are mad at you.

Shawn (29:08.205)
In what sense?

Matt (29:09.632)
well, i don't know, enough that they're like, where's the MAGA perspective? sean lanks ring choice voting, boo boo boo

Shawn (29:13.381)
yeah, but I was always an ever-trumper. That's not a change. I'm being pretty consistent. I actually, though, again, to be loyal, I do like some of the things he's doing. I do kind of like the tariff approach. We're gonna talk about that. I do like his negotiating tactic. In the beginning, the Make America First thing I thought was so stupid and I hated it because I didn't believe him, but now I kind of see what he had in mind and I'm like, maybe there is something to what he's doing. So I don't know. He's winning me over, then he's.

Marc (29:29.428)
you

Shawn (29:43.181)
more than he's losing me.

Matt (29:45.516)
Okay. Mark, do you want to give Sean the points for that?

Marc (29:48.673)
Yeah, you bet you there. One day you'll get points when you, you know, drop the scholastic act and come to your senses. But till then, Sean will have some points.

Matt (29:54.67)
I'm okay.

Matt (29:59.596)
Whenever Levi's on, get points. Whenever Mark's on, I get no points. Hey, let's talk about tariffs. So Sean said we should take a wait and see approach to Trump's tariffs. So now we can see a year in, what do we know? We know that China's trade surplus is bigger than it's ever been, a trillion dollars. What's happened is they don't export to the United States. China is now exporting more goods to countries like Canada.

Shawn (30:03.375)
Ha

Marc (30:05.131)
Nothing personal.

Matt (30:26.988)
and other countries that the United States has placed tariffs on. And likewise, these other countries are doing more business with China because there's tariffs to do business in the United States. The other thing we know is that tax revenue from the tariffs is so high that the federal deficit for this year is way down. The deficit is the amount of money we spend in debt, right? So if we don't bring in enough tax revenue and we spend money, then that increases the deficit. So over the past year, the deficit has decreased.

by about $100 billion because of the tariff revenue that has come in. So in effect, tariffs are a national sales tax that's being used to pay down the deficit. Given these outcomes, what do you guys think of Trump's tariffs?

Marc (31:07.423)
you

Shawn (31:10.821)
So a couple of questions for you, Matt, just to give me clarity so I can understand tariffs. I think you understand tariffs well or this kind of economic policy better than I do. But obviously China, whose whole brand positioning is cheapest labor on the planet, is always going to have a demand. There's always going to be demand for slave labor. So it makes sense that if America says no longer are we going to... Like the rules aren't fair.

If we in America, we value human life and you don't and you're gonna allow slave labor, then we can't compete with that and that's not fair. So we're gonna cut you off and we're gonna put huge tariffs on you. The intention there, like you mentioned, sure, there's gonna be some of, well, I in America really want that Chinese product, I'm willing to pay more for it. But there's also gonna be a lot of, you know what, I'm not gonna buy Chinese products anymore, I'm gonna go elsewhere. I'm gonna buy US made, I'm gonna buy Mexico.

Marc (31:42.235)
Okay.

Marc (31:53.439)
you

Marc (31:57.579)
you

Shawn (32:09.721)
That's probably good for society, right? Like if we create less demand for slave labor, isn't that good for society?

Marc (32:14.015)
Thank you.

Matt (32:17.004)
I'm going to say that it's not good for society.

Shawn (32:19.855)
slave labor is good for society then. Rewarding the cheapest for slave labor is good for society.

Matt (32:22.966)
Well, I'm saying.

I guess we're talking about, it depends on which society we're talking about. Is it good for the United States? No, it's bad for the United States. Could it be good for the entire world if somehow our cutting China off from the US market was gonna stop slave labor in China? Then that could be good for the world, except for that it's not doing that. So then it's not good for that society either.

Shawn (32:47.461)
But what if over time, Britain and Europe and other countries go, yeah, wait a minute, this idea that we should fight against slave labor and the idea that maybe we should be more independent in our economies, in our self-defense, isn't that a good idea? Like again, in this, it's not. I know, I know, but listen, this free trade thing that Milton Friedman loved doesn't necessarily apply unless there are,

Matt (33:06.318)
No. Sean, you're a libertarian.

Shawn (33:17.273)
fair rules across the board. That's why I'm a libertarian in America. I don't think I'm a libertarian internationally though, because if you can't enforce the same rules, then there's not free trade.

Matt (33:27.318)
You can enforce the same rules through the World Trade Organization and through the United Nations. We all agree to, we all have a treaties and agreements in which we have fair trade rules.

Shawn (33:31.736)
Wait a minute, but-

Then you agree we should not be trading with China because there's no free trade there. If one says we're willing to pay children a penny an hour to work and the other says, no, hey, that's not a human right. That violates human rights there. Then there's not free trade there. So you agree we shouldn't be trading with China.

Matt (33:55.214)
I'm fine with thinking about our trade policy with China. The problem with Trump's tariffs is that he uses them as a political tool to get what he wants and he does it arbitrarily and it's on and then it's off again. And so his broader policy doesn't do anything about policies in any other country. All it does is make it so that the world sees the United States as a unreliable trade partner. So everybody leaves the United States markets. That's the problem.

Shawn (34:20.837)
I know I kind of see it working a little bit though. But the whole fear that you quoted me as saying, let's see what happens, but your fear, your statements were that inflation will soar like crazy. Not in so many important areas like gas, gas is way down. Eggs, as Trump likes to point out, are way down.

Matt (34:24.462)
But it's not working.

Matt (34:35.372)
That has happened. Inflation is up.

Marc (34:41.182)
Okay.

Matt (34:42.868)
That's because we invaded Venezuela. That's because we stole oil in Venezuela to bring oil prices down.

Marc (34:44.126)
Thank you.

Shawn (34:49.314)
The big but though, it's still down. Your fear was tariffs would drive inflation up so high that would ruin our economy. That's not happening.

Matt (34:55.818)
Look, look at... Go ahead, Mark.

Marc (35:00.659)
Gas prices around here at least were coming down before Venezuela and to say invaded means that we're still sitting there but we just went in and we came back out. I wouldn't call that I'm not pretty sure it wasn't like a full-on invasion it was a pick up and run.

Matt (35:11.874)
Are you sure about that, Mark? You sure we don't have any troops in Venezuela?

Matt (35:20.384)
Interesting. Why would that woman give her Nobel Peace Prize to Trump? Why did that Venezuelan leader do that after the fact?

Marc (35:28.51)
What is that noise?

Matt (35:31.223)
I don't know.

Shawn (35:32.037)
Sorry, it's a saw.

Marc (35:33.63)
Oh, I thought it was a gate to hell.

Matt (35:36.046)
If the US has no troops in Venezuela, why did the woman give her Peace Prize to Donald Trump? okay. Just checking. Just checking.

Marc (35:39.132)
Or maybe they do, I don't know, I'm not paying attention that much.

I'm too busy trying to the scriptures to read the news. Thank you very much.

Matt (35:48.098)
Let me just ask this question, Sean. Inflation, core inflation, they measure it year over year. Is inflation up or down in the Trump administration? Yeah, it's up.

Shawn (35:48.824)
Nice.

Shawn (35:56.165)
It's up, but it's but but but from where it started, it's down. It's down, right? It's Are you sure?

Matt (36:00.874)
No, it's not. No, Sean. So in, so if people are saying, let's say in the 2024 election, they're like, prices are too high. We need them to come down. And Trump says, Hey, good news. In the, in the, first year of the presidency, your prices only went up 5%. Well, that's not, that's not fixing inflation.

Shawn (36:19.359)
So, okay, so yeah, but here's this, politician is smart if they approach it, and I hate to say it the way that Donald Trump is, Americans don't care about that number. They don't care, okay, here's the overall fleet. What they care is what's the price of eggs and what's the price of gas and what's the price of a car? That's what they care about. And those things are down.

Matt (36:37.062)
And are any of them... The eggs are not down!

Shawn (36:42.169)
They are two down! Are you kidding me? A year ago, I literally remember going to Costco and seeing the eggs were like 15, 20 bucks and now they're three.

Marc (36:45.246)
Eggs are a wait-out.

Matt (36:52.024)
Sean, a year ago there was a bird flu, a pandemic, right? So there was a bunch of birds that died, but eggs, eggs are not 69 cents a dozen like they were four years ago.

Shawn (36:56.858)
Sure!

Marc (37:01.725)
Well now wait minute to say that they died is to, they died. Joe Biden forcefully had the USDA execute a whole bunch of chickens. So that's why eggs and chickens so expensive.

Shawn (37:13.029)
What?

Matt (37:16.364)
I'm listening, Mark, go on.

Marc (37:17.629)
That's what Alex Jones said. the point is, just a simple Google at inflation in the United States over the last 10 years shows that in 2020 it was 1.2, then 21, 4.7, 22 hits 8.0 with a peak of 9.1. But what is it right now? It is 2.7. So it's actually down from a year ago, which was 2.9. Thank you.

Matt (37:39.533)
Mmm.

Matt (37:43.106)
You're saying the rate of inflation is down, but inflation is up.

Shawn (37:47.589)
But Matt, you don't agree though that the average American and majority of Americans don't look at the, what's the overall number of inflation? They look at, I'm going to the grocery store and I'm getting gas right now. And my goodness, I just saw it yesterday in I think 70 % of the States, it's below $3. Whereas a year ago, it was literally five, $6. You don't think that's what people are paying attention to?

Matt (37:48.428)
The price of goods is increasing.

Matt (38:10.412)
No, I think I did tell you that Sean, when we talked about why he went into Venezuela, because I said Trump wants to lower oil prices before the midterm. So gas prices come down. No, I do think that people look at that, but if you look at public opinion surveys, why is it that people have turned on Trump? It's because the majority of Americans reject his economic policies and say that he hasn't made life better for them the way they thought he would.

Shawn (38:34.735)
Well, interesting. mean, but again, I'm in my mind, the midterms is what's really going to play that out to see if truly people are just are unhappy with what he's doing. Is that true or not? I may be ignorant about.

Matt (38:47.583)
No, I think the midterms will have a big political effect. What I want to know...

Shawn (38:51.887)
But is it a more accurate reflection of Trump's popularity?

Matt (38:56.782)
in some ways, yeah. So elections are both about how well you motivate people to get out to vote as well as their opinions on issues. And Trump has this mobilizing effect. Trump has this way of making people think elections matter a lot. So people who normally don't vote turn out to vote even in midterms when Trump's president. So, I mean, I guess if I'm, I suppose in one way an elected official should only care about opinion if it affects elections.

But I think that they should care even if it doesn't affect elections, they should try to represent their constituents in a way that makes them happy.

Marc (39:32.638)
Side note, did a quick google as of January 2026 there are no US boots on the ground troops in Venezuela. Anyway, please carry on.

Shawn (39:32.645)
So, is there a, go ahead Mark.

Matt (39:44.353)
As of when?

Marc (39:45.584)
January 2026. That's right now, by the way.

Matt (39:48.044)
good.

Does it say anything about like the aircraft carriers and the CIA and those, those boats hanging off?

Marc (39:56.346)
It mentions that there are some boats in the Caribbean area, which is normal. We've always been there.

Matt (40:00.078)
I don't think we have. Mark, I don't think we have. I was on a cruise in the Caribbean and I don't recollect saying any aircraft carriers or destroyers. I'm just saying like my friends who've gone on cruises down there recently all have photos of aircraft carriers and destroyers and such. I think we have an increased presence in the Caribbean right now.

Shawn (40:03.462)
not i guess i guess i

Marc (40:12.975)
Do you know how big the ocean is?

Marc (40:25.911)
Increased yes, but not brand new.

Matt (40:29.184)
okay.

Shawn (40:31.789)
Matt, I don't know your stance on tariffs to give you the points or not, but to me, I thought it'd be way worse than it is. I did, I really did think so, and it hasn't turned out that way. So I'm gonna say that it's not as bad as I thought it would be.

Matt (40:31.913)
Matt (40:36.047)
this is my stance.

Matt (40:43.918)
Let me try and get your points,

Marc (40:45.669)
to give Donald Trump the points.

Matt (40:48.334)
Wait, I'm going to try and earn Mark's points on this too. Number one, the tariff policy is isolating the U.S. economy in a way that's not healthy for the U.S. economy. So long-term, it's going to hurt us that other countries no longer buy American goods. So even if Americans continue to purchase American goods, the fact that

Shawn (40:50.661)
Yeah, I'm gonna go in your plot. Yes.

Shawn (41:03.642)
But that's but that's not happening now. So your your answer to this is back to what my original answer was. Let's wait and see.

Matt (41:12.514)
No, it is happening now because Canada is no longer buying as many American goods. European Union has just announced they're not buying as many American goods.

Shawn (41:19.845)
Yeah, but they weren't in the kind of the point if you believe Donald Trump, they weren't buying that many goods in the first place. So who cares?

Matt (41:24.974)
Well, you can look at the numbers. I don't know how much I trust the numbers coming out of it. But anyhow, so number one, I don't know that it's working for us economically. Number two, I don't think that we should use a sales tax to pay off the national debt. So the fact that they passed the one big beautiful bill that lowers income taxes on the richest Americans and then they supplant that money with sales tax on Americans purchasing everyday goods and services, in my opinion, is morally wrong. So even if it stops slave labor in China,

It's the wrong way to go about it because it punishes the everyday working Americans in order to give benefits and taxes on income to the wealthiest Americans.

Shawn (42:05.669)
Yeah, I don't know that I'm giving you points. We don't have to pick part of all those thoughts, but I don't know that I'm

Marc (42:06.062)
Yeah, sorry. Can't do it.

Matt (42:08.462)
Alright.

Matt (42:12.11)
Okay, Mark's gonna give me points though. Good job you guys.

Marc (42:13.508)
Sean gets my points again. It's, I just, can't, there's a calmness to Sean's approach. I appreciate the calm. Wait and see versus the everything is horrible just cause the ABC told me. my gosh. Not that that's what you said, of course. You're a sweet man.

Matt (42:23.182)
You

Matt (42:31.886)
No, that's fine. That's alright.

Shawn (42:34.817)
Or maybe I just felt really insecure about the first comment people made about us not representing all the sites. So I'm trying to be more maggot right now? I don't know.

Matt (42:44.854)
I don't need points. Okay. Here's the big question. We're shifting totally away from Trump, totally away from taxes. We're going to something that matters a lot. Okay. So there's a group called

Marc (42:44.858)
There's not a lot of Texas.

Shawn (42:52.749)
Yeah, this is a big shift.

Usually usually Matt you are very consistent with all the topics not today. I mean the first four yes this one

Matt (43:03.278)
The big question is like a big theoretical question. I gotta know what you guys think. There's a new group, it's not a new group, but it's called the International Association for Near Death Studies. They held a conference recently and somebody at the New York Times attended and wrote a little story about it, so we're gonna talk about it. So in the last six years, their membership has doubled to 2,000 members. Monthly web traffic to their website is 70,000 visitors.

Marc (43:05.934)
Let's go.

Shawn (43:06.757)
Yeah, it's interesting. It is interesting.

Marc (43:20.056)
Thank

Marc (43:25.114)
you

Matt (43:30.828)
This surge driven by younger generations in a record-breaking annual conference bridges the gap between academic research and personal testimony. Some researchers argue that near-death experiences are caused by hypoxia, a lack of oxygen, or a chemical surge in the brain. Yet thousands of people across different cultures and ages report the same 16 elements on this scale called the Grayson Near-Death Experiences Scale.

Marc (43:39.222)
Thank you.

you

Marc (43:54.234)
you

Matt (43:58.945)
which was presented at this conference. So here's the big question. Does the consistency of these stories provide proof that life after death is real or does it simply prove that all human brains are wired to die in the same exact biological way?

Shawn (44:01.088)
it's a new scale, okay.

Shawn (44:15.685)
Okay, so I don't mean to, like, I need to go on a short tangent to get to the point of this. is your, like our audience is LDS members, right? So is your question, when you say does the consistency of these stories prove life after death, we all believe like in our core of life after death. Are you suggesting that real evidence, right? There's groups out there like, I don't remember the names of all these LDS like social media people who are basically like.

Look at all the evidence now that the Book of Mormon is real. Look, there were horses and there were gold and there was swords and blah, blah, blah. And I look at those and go, I mean, why? I don't care. Like the scriptures clearly teach us that a spiritual revelation is the only way for us to know truth. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So why do you ask this question?

Matt (45:00.27)
question is, Sean, because when I was a kid, there was a Book of Desert book all about life after death, these near-death experiences, and it helped me believe in life after death, because I would read people's stories and say, if people are dying and coming back again and talking about the afterlife, that proves that there's life after death. And my question is, does this stuff prove it?

Shawn (45:17.732)
Yes sir.

Shawn (45:22.501)
No, no, no it doesn't.

Marc (45:22.712)
And now behold it hath been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of nearly all men when they have passed from this life, is spirit.

Matt (45:23.032)
Go ahead, Mark.

Shawn (45:29.721)
Yeah, like our belief, it has to be a spiritual, it has to be a faith.

Matt (45:34.574)
Do you believe that these people who die and then come back again are really dying, going to the spirit world and then coming back again? Or is it just some other brain kind of thing that happens? Yeah, that's the question.

Shawn (45:44.633)
That's your question. Thank you for the clarity. That's what your question is. Do people actually, okay, well that didn't sound like what the question was. Yeah, why not? I mean, it plays no role in our salvation or exaltation, so I gotta take a hard stance on it, but do I believe that if someone almost dying has some process with spiritual beings? Sure, why not? Like we have spiritual beings visiting us in mortality. Why wouldn't there be spiritual beings involved in that like transition?

Matt (46:05.921)
I don't.

Matt (46:10.605)
Yes.

Shawn (46:13.773)
Sure, why not?

Matt (46:15.982)
I say that people who die and their spirit leaves their body cannot come back again. You die, it's over. That's death. There's no, I'm part dead, my spirit's gone, and then I came back. I don't think that's real.

Marc (46:26.041)
Okay.

Shawn (46:30.437)
I didn't know you meant their spirit sections leave their body. Go ahead, Mark.

Marc (46:30.552)
I this with great love, Brother Miles, but there is the story of the young lady who did full-on dead, dead, dead, and Lorenzo Snow showed up like six hours later and called her back to life. There's also Lazarus, the widow's kid, the gyros' daughter. You can be dead, dead, and still come back. In fact, Abraham full-on probably killed Isaac, trusting that he could come back, and he did.

Shawn (46:46.853)
address.

Matt (46:46.924)
Lazarus. Lazarus.

Marc (46:59.916)
I'm just saying.

Matt (47:00.526)
Okay. I believe, I believe in miracles, Mark. I believe in miracles. I believe that through the power of God, someone who's dead can be brought back to life. But I don't believe that the power of medicine or the power of like wishful, hopeful thinking, or just God just randomly chooses this person gets to come back and this person gets to come back. I believe it in the, the cons, in the cons, like if it's a miracle, yes. Otherwise no.

Shawn (47:02.381)
How did we until that point mark?

Marc (47:03.128)
Thanks

Marc (47:10.134)
Well there we go!

Marc (47:28.993)
Okay.

Shawn (47:30.137)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I go with that. I mean, you've made a point before, Matt, that God uses things like Ozempic and things like AI in order to fulfill his purposes. Why is this difference? Why?

Matt (47:40.526)
This is different. This is different. It doesn't build faith. So all of the stories that Mark mentioned are there to build faith in Jesus Christ. So miracles exist to build faith in Jesus Christ.

Shawn (47:53.733)
instead of if it was medicine that was causing this thing to happen, people would put their trust and faith in the arm of the flesh. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. So but what if it was God's will that Jane get injured and almost die or die for a minute and then his will was she'll come back through the efforts of Max, you know, whatever.

Matt (48:00.878)
Correct.

Marc (48:01.548)
Thank

Marc (48:16.311)
Thank

Matt (48:17.122)
laying out of hands, or medicine.

Shawn (48:19.991)
Medicine, I guess. don't know. Yeah, I guess the difference. You believe that that can happen if it's Matt's laying on the hands, but not if Matt does CPR.

Matt (48:27.182)
So for me, the more stories there are that people tell of near-death experiences, the less faith I have that they're actually real things. Because like Mark said, you can name in the scriptures, you can name in church history, very specific instances. But when there's thousands and thousands of people that report these things, then I'm like, no, that's just something weird happening in the brain.

Shawn (48:35.087)
interesting.

Shawn (48:48.025)
Aha, okay, interesting. So you look at this huge group of 2,000 members of the Near Death Experience Club and you go, sorry guys, you're kind of bamboozled. Like you didn't actually die. That's the point. Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, so their experiences they're having were just happening in their head.

Matt (48:59.662)
That's right.

Matt (49:06.478)
There's some kind of thing that happens in the brain as one is dying, right? So maybe they're like near dead, they're almost dead or something like that, but they're not all the way dead. And that's why they have this common experience that people have and medicine doesn't have a better word for it. So they're calling it a near death experience, but it's just a function of dying.

Shawn (49:21.733)
Why do you, I guess you answered why. I was gonna ask you why. You don't believe these guys, but you believe the LDS guy who says that aliens took him for 24 hours.

Matt (49:33.88)
Mark, what do you say? Did I persuade you?

Marc (49:34.231)
You know, I was a little bit 50-50 because You know the people who we know died like the the best one is the girl that Lorenzo snow brought back She said she was seeing people ancestors not just I saw light so You know these people aren't out there seeing their ancestors that they're for sure dead than you who might have say I'm

Shawn (50:01.605)
I'll give you a 50-52, Matt, because there are stories, like when Alma was talking to his son about what happens between death and judgment or death and resurrection, he says, there is a space that the spirit goes. There's not necessarily, Right? There is a temporal space. So maybe Lazarus was there and mingling or talking with, you know, being in that community and God could force it not to be a final death. And so he puts his spirit back in his body. So I'm 50-52. I'll definitely give you the points, Matt, because it was a thoughtful question.

not that we get points in the last one.

Marc (50:31.562)
Yes, I'll give you a point and a half.

Matt (50:35.726)
Yes. Hey guys, this was awesome. Thanks so much for joining me today and listeners, thanks for joining us. Let us know what you think. Personally, I felt a little too MAGA for me, but maybe that's just right for some of you guys. Talk to you again next week.

Shawn (50:48.985)
Ha ha ha ha!

Marc (50:51.382)
Bye.