Matt (00:01.4)
Hello everybody and welcome to the latter day lens. We are so happy that you're with us this week. I'm your host, Matt with me as always is Sean and it's just gonna be the two of us for a little bit, at least a little bit today because you know, I don't get enough just one-on-one Sean and I wanna share my one-on-one Sean time with all of the rest of you this week. So.

Shawn (00:15.246)
hehe

Shawn (00:25.252)
Then it's kind of different one on one time that we're sharing it with everyone else. It's kind of one on one and everyone else,

Matt (00:31.278)
Yeah.

Matt (00:34.882)
Yeah, that's true. I'm more comfortable that way. I like all of my private things to be public. Are you like that, Sean? You want nothing? Hey, do you know there was this guy who had a YouTube channel. His YouTube channel was Outdoor Boys. He's a member of our church.

Shawn (00:39.716)
I don't think you are like that, but...

Shawn (00:52.993)
that needs to remember the church?

Matt (00:54.518)
Yeah. Okay. So you know who I'm talking about? The outdoor boys guy. Yeah. So he quit, right? He, yeah, yeah, yeah. He quit like, I don't know, maybe six or so months ago. He's like, I'm done with it because he just blew up, right? He became so famous in the last year or so that people were like approaching him on the street and kind of interfering with his personal life. So he was just like, I'm done. He's like, I always wanted to be YouTube famous and now I'm just done with it. And I thought,

Shawn (00:56.462)
Yeah, yeah, I do like toss toss.

Matt (01:24.096)
I think I would be the same way, if suddenly like...

Shawn (01:25.442)
He's your hero. I know you're about to say that. This guy's your hero. This guy is living. You are living vicariously through him. This small time YouTube celebrity and you're like, yes, yes, that guy's making the sacrifice that I would make. I don't want that.

Matt (01:33.838)
Hahaha

Matt (01:39.182)
Well, I don't know, can imagine you live in Alaska and you make videos of yourself all alone doing like living and surviving on your own in Alaska and he made good money, right? He was able to take his family to really cool places and stuff. But I would imagine the celebrity is sort of like overwhelming where you're like, wait a minute. I'm used to being all alone with me in a snow cave. And now there's other people that want to say hi.

Shawn (02:02.724)
It's the privacy that people want. I get it. I get it. Okay, I get it.

Matt (02:06.892)
Yeah, I think so. All right, so one listener wrote in and said, hey guys, hey guys are so awesome. They probably meant, hey, you guys are so awesome. It is really fun to see how your viewpoints change over time. I love that Sean and Melanie pointed out how Matt is really good at getting people riled up and passionate about a subject. When I first started listening to your podcast, I wasn't sure if I liked it or not because I frequently found myself yelling at you guys in the car.

That's what you're supposed to do when you listen to this podcast, by the way.

Shawn (02:40.6)
I think that's what your original goal was with this podcast.

Matt (02:44.002)
Yeah, like I want you to interact and engage and yeah. But then you would move on to another topic and I would agree with you and love it. And I didn't know what to do with it. Eventually I listened to Matt on This Week in Mormons as this other podcast that I do as well and figured out that sometimes he says things he doesn't believe just to make for more interesting conversation. And it works. Two or three years later, here I am following you every week. Well, thank you listener. Thanks for letting us know.

Shawn (03:11.939)
Let's point out there was one episode that I was on this week in Mormons with you and your sister. And I took that opportunity all these years I've never met your sister except for that moment. And so I was excited. And so the first thing that she and I were able to bond over was this idea that why is it that everyone at first hates Matt and then over time loves Matt? What is that about Matt that...

Matt (03:16.386)
Yeah.

Matt (03:30.478)
you

Shawn (03:36.558)
that kind of takes that kind of relationship and now we get this listener giving the same experience. What is it, Matt? What is it?

Matt (03:36.631)
Yeah.

Matt (03:40.76)
Yeah, I wish I could describe it. I don't know what it is. I would say in my head, I make great first impressions, but what I've learned over the years is that I probably don't make great first impressions.

Shawn (03:50.084)
Ha

Shawn (03:54.36)
No, I think you do. You make a good first impression for five minutes. And then people go, this guy.

Matt (03:57.838)
Yeah, think I'm a little ADHD and I get bored real fast. And so I really quickly transitioned from nice to meet you to I wonder what happens if I do this to you or I do this to you or I do this and then people don't like that very much. they're like, yeah. And I do that mostly in conversation because

Shawn (04:08.728)
Yeah.

Matt (04:25.598)
know we have laws about like literally poking people so you can like verbally poke at people a little bit and sort of see how they respond but it's not a kind thing

Shawn (04:35.138)
No, I want to point out that every single one of us who love you so much hated you in the beginning. And then the point was stick with you and you learn, when you understand this guy, he's the coolest guy on the planet. So I'm looking forward to today because it's just you and I. And I have, I can honestly say when you stick with Matt, you learn more. And I've, it's been a while since I've been able to dig deeper and ask a million questions. And I will learn a lot today, I'm sure. Or I'll end up not liking you again.

Matt (04:43.554)
Yeah.

Matt (04:50.734)
Yeah.

Matt (05:04.514)
or you'll be upset. I'm like the movie Joe versus the volcano. The first three or four times you watch Joe versus the volcano, you're like, what is this movie? It makes no sense. But then once you get it, you could watch it anytime, anywhere, any place and just love it to death. Yeah. My daughter for her 23rd birthday, got a bunch of friends together and watched Joe versus the volcano. And her boyfriend who had never seen it before was sort of like,

Shawn (05:09.71)
Yes.

Shawn (05:21.571)
Which I do.

Shawn (05:29.604)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (05:34.286)
I don't know what I think about this and I'm like, you've got to watch it three more times. yeah, I'm like that.

Shawn (05:35.2)
Ha

Shawn (05:39.268)
I like it. You're the personification of Joe versus the volcano. That makes me happy.

Matt (05:45.422)
Listeners, if you haven't seen it, then you should. you have, if you've seen it and you dislike it, watch it two or three more times and you will love it. Like it's a beautiful, it's the very best Tom Hanks Meg Ryan romance masterpiece. Yeah.

Shawn (06:01.22)
By far, by far. And apply that to this podcast listeners, if you listen to Matt today and get triggered and don't like him, you gotta listen two or three more times and you will learn that there's a method and a strategy to Matt's brain that is very, very appealing.

Matt (06:19.618)
Yeah, just keep at it. All right, so here's our first topic this week. Okay, do you know who Peter Thiel is, Okay, all right. I don't know how widely these people are known. Okay, so venture capitalist Peter Thiel did some private lectures that you had to pay money to attend. And in this, he was talking about the Antichrist. Now, this is me trying to like throw breadcrumbs to Sean because Sean always wants to talk religion. And this is a way to be like, okay.

Shawn (06:25.592)
Yeah.

Matt (06:48.672)
Okay, so according to Peter Thiel, who by the way is not a philosopher, he's

Shawn (06:51.076)
This is the religious topic you choose as a... Thank you.

Matt (06:55.598)
I think I don't know it's kind of it's out there in the news. So he's not a philosopher. He's a billionaire and he really likes JD Vance. I know that. okay. Okay, great. It does actually kind of make sense. Okay. Okay. So he says the antichrist is a technological Luddite tyrant who exploits fears of AI and stagnation.

Shawn (07:05.572)
And he's German. I don't know why that matters, but he is, German.

Matt (07:22.808)
to usher in one world government and an unjust peace. He argues the modern Antichrist will be a tyrant who fears technology, not a mad scientist, and will gain power by using public panic over global dangers like AI and nuclear war. He believes this figure will create a one world government to enforce a false unjust peace and stop scientific project. He sees global organizations and anti-science voices

as helping the Antichrist while viewing political pushback as a necessary way to keep its threat in check. So my question, Sean, is his characterization of the Antichrist consistent with modern revelation or what we know as members of the church?

Shawn (08:09.528)
Okay, I answer, first have to ask you, because it's never just, I want to show my, I want to ask Sean a question I think he'll like. And if it is, usually fail because Matt's ability to jump into someone else's shoes and actually know what they want, not so good. What is your real motive for this question? Like where does it really come from? Something sparked interest in you or yeah, you maybe thought that it would spark interest in me, but what is the true motive for this question?

Matt (08:34.606)
I wish I knew it's just all over the place right now when I was looking at like what's in the news people are way interested in what Peter Thiel is saying about the Antichrist I think because he's a billionaire and I think because they're

Shawn (08:47.384)
Yes, started, was a co-founder of PayPal or he was part of the PayPal launch, which by the way, there's this thing called the PayPal mafia. Do know what the PayPal mafia is, Matt? Like all the founders of PayPal ended up starting everything that runs the world now. Elon Musk, all the Google, or the YouTube guys, just over, like tons of these. LinkedIn.

Matt (08:56.332)
No.

Matt (09:02.06)
Okay.

Matt (09:08.472)
Well, okay, and so I think like there is this, I'm gonna call it a libertarian point of view. There's like this, and I think a lot of those people you described have kind of a libertarian point of view. And I think that that gets mixed in with the way that people think about the gospel of Jesus Christ, at least in our church. Now, I don't think we're as concerned about the Antichrist, but like as I was reading, as he's talking about the Antichrist, the end times Armageddon, I was like, there are themes there that I hear members of our church talk about all the time.

Shawn (09:17.452)
Yes. Yep.

Matt (09:38.154)
And the way that this guy sort of mixes his libertarian views with kind of this end of times apocalypse stuff seems consistent with like what I would think maybe you believe or people in our church believe. And so that's when I was like, now I know that the antichrist, we don't worry about that as much in our church, but just generally like these ideas, I thought this probably resonates with Sean. Like Sean probably likes some of this stuff.

Shawn (10:02.69)
Really? I don't, not a single bit of what this dude is saying. Here's my standard, well, to cover the Antichrist thing. Scriptures are clear that there's not, like the Antichrist isn't a single person necessarily. It's like, think our scriptures kind of show that it's more like a spirit.

Matt (10:04.62)
Yeah, yeah this

Matt (10:23.18)
The one world order, the one government, the one like, let's try to unite all. Right? I think that there's this like people in our church that are like the antichrist. It wants to create a one world order and a one government to deprive people of freedom.

Shawn (10:36.78)
But I've never heard people in our church say that there's one person that's going to be the leading antichrist who's going to do that. I think it's a spirit, right? Like in 1 John 2, it says, even now there are many antichrists, right? In the Book of Mormon. Sherem is called an antichrist because he denied Christ and sought to overthrow the doctrine of Christ. But there are so many people throughout scripture and today who deny the power of Christ and want to overthrow the Church of Christ.

Matt (10:50.019)
Yeah.

Shawn (11:00.526)
they're all considered the spirit of Antichrist, right? Korahor, another Antichrist, he preached atheism and materialism and denying prophets and denying revelation, denying the coming of Christ.

Matt (11:09.902)
Or do you think that one world order would be consistent with an anti-Christ sort of thing?

Shawn (11:17.216)
But when has a one world order ever even been close to materializing? It never has. I just don't think that's not human nature. There's no way, A, that would ever happen and B, I don't know. There's no way that an antichrist would be the least, someone would be popular enough as an antichrist to lead. This is crazy. That's crazy question. And I don't know what that dude's thinking. What is that dude thinking? Whenever I hear people in our church talk about end times, like it's coming, it's coming.

Matt (11:37.934)
Shawn (11:44.323)
And some people even cross over to, therefore I'm taking action, right? Like I'm gonna, I don't know. My kind of standard answer is the same or my thoughts are the same. Like we who are alive tend to think we are the center of the universe. We are the most important people or things or time. And I don't know if that comes from oftentimes in the past prophets would have come and say, you are the most important generation or you were saved for this time. But I think that's true and probably applies to every generation.

Matt (12:13.441)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (12:14.253)
Like the second coming and the end of time could be 10, 2000 years from now. It could be a hundred years from now. It could be tomorrow, we, scriptures are clear. We don't know.

Matt (12:24.109)
Well, let me, let me dig into this idea a little bit deeper that he sort of talks about is this idea of an unjust piece, right? So there's this idea that, that he expresses that I've heard other people say that it's like, if you are the kind of person that says we want peace at all costs, then you're going to be fighting for, like, you're going to be saying we don't want conflict. We don't want war, but you're going to be giving up your individual freedoms in exchange for that, because you're like,

We want these international organizations that can promote peace, but those international organizations might like be taking away your individual liberties at the same time. And so he's calling that an unjust peace. Do you think there's something like anti-Christ in this idea that says we would like big groups that can help like regulate or create peace in the world, even if that means I'm going to give up my individual liberties in order to have that. Is that anti-Christ?

Shawn (13:21.572)
So you're saying if we're defining Antichrist as basically a theory that fights against the principles that Christ taught, then yeah, right? Because that's agency. And that's what many members of the church would call socialism, Matt, wouldn't they? Wouldn't they? Like you can justify taking away human rights and freedoms for the greater good.

Matt (13:28.47)
Yeah.

Matt (13:35.181)
Well, no, well, okay, but

Matt (13:43.448)
But we could also choose to, right? Okay, so for example, there are things on my own property I'm not allowed to do because it might incite a riot or cause violence or disturb people, right? Like this is, I don't know if I've said this story before. probably should.

Shawn (13:59.461)
Hot talent!

Matt (14:01.849)
I open up my window.

Shawn (14:12.388)
Start that story over, start skipping out.

Matt (14:14.923)
Yeah, okay. So when I was a freshman in college, I would get bored in the afternoons. And so my window looked out over a parking lot. And so I would open my window and I would just shout at anybody that was walking through the parking lot and just say anything to agitate them and upset them and just see like, what I could do. One time, this person got so mad at me, he pulled down his pants and mooned me and I was like, hahaha, like what an idiot. And people

Shawn (14:38.468)
And that was the goal, right? You're trying to get someone to do that. That's what you're trying to do.

Matt (14:44.267)
Yeah, people would come to my room at like in the afternoon, they'd stop like there is in the dorms, right? They would all come, they would gather in my room just to watch me shout at people and agitate other people. Well, so and then one time the the dorm mother was like, Hey, what are you guys doing? Please stop shouting. Like everybody that walks by. So I think like a similar we have like laws in society to prevent things like that, right? I can't sit on my front lawn.

Shawn (15:06.134)
Wow.

Shawn (15:10.606)
Do we?

Matt (15:11.637)
and shout obscenities at everybody that walks by. Yeah, it's disturbing the peace. Sure, disturbing the peace. Like you can't, there's things you, there's thing.

Shawn (15:14.276)
There's a law against that?

Shawn (15:19.94)
Wait, wait. Were you actually breaking the law? Was that breaking the law what you did in Provo?

Matt (15:23.409)
I don't know if, I don't know if maybe, but I would, but if you take that another step further, right? Where you're like antagonizing people, throwing things at people. Like we have these laws, but even if I'm on the there's certain things they can't do because it's going to lead to conflict in my neighborhood.

Shawn (15:44.773)
But are there laws that say you can't do or say things that lead to conflict? Like for example, you can't incite to violence. That would be breaking the law. Wouldn't that be breaking the law? Inciting to violence, right? There's that famous video of some city council and some woman is just so, so, so upset and she basically says, you you guys are gonna die, you know, if you keep going in this direction. And so they arrested her and obviously that was a crime. That makes sense. That seems like a just law and...

Matt (15:55.115)
Yeah.

Matt (16:06.945)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (16:10.606)
Yeah.

Matt (16:14.231)
But it okay. So, that limits my liberty, right? So what I'm saying is these international organizations sure are liberty in some way, but they're not big ways. And in the big picture, they make a more peaceful world, whatever it is that they're not allowing me to do a fine thing to say, I can't do that because

Shawn (16:14.254)
inciting to violence or threatening.

Shawn (16:37.156)
You're asking what is the line? What is the line? How much freedom can we? Yeah. mean, obviously libertarian, which I tend towards, I would say you, you, you, um, you give more freedom than not, right? You take, risk things. And when, when it does cross a line to, uh, uh, infringing on someone's rights, there's a court of law and you're able to take that person to a court of law and you, you decide whether or not you were unjustly treated. Right? Like.

Matt (16:44.557)
Well, that's more of like...

Shawn (17:07.03)
I say let you shout out that window and if there's some point where you incited to violence or caused violence, yeah, take you to court and you should be responsible for it. I love the day in the MTC when you kind of pushed that edge and our beloved teacher brought on, took that heavy thick eraser and threw it so hard at you right above your head. That was a consequence for you and your face showed that you were scared. Scared and shocked, yeah. That's a consequence.

Matt (17:07.296)
Yeah.

Matt (17:29.153)
Yeah.

Matt (17:33.823)
I was. Yeah. What I'm saying is we need that on the international order. We need a big group so that when Russia decides to go do something or who decides to invade a country, kidnap kids, break international laws, it gets back into place. And that doesn't threaten our faith to have international groups do

Shawn (17:56.132)
But it does start in our faith if culture or different values don't align. And all of a sudden, it all depends on who's kind of in charge of that international group and what values and what...

What standards they align, right? What if eventually, I don't know, like, like if you're talking about an international body, you're going to have to be inclusive of all the international bodies. Is that correct? Yeah. So what's your favorite international body that doesn't practice human rights?

Matt (18:21.963)
Yeah.

Matt (18:28.235)
like a country that I like a lot, that violates human rights. I'm going to say

Shawn (18:31.012)
I want to know your favorite internet, your favorite country that doesn't practice human rights. What is it Matt?

Matt (18:37.985)
I'm going to say the United States of America.

Shawn (18:40.16)
What the crap, that was a what?

Matt (18:43.051)
Of course we violate human rights.

Shawn (18:45.764)
Relative to say Iran relative to say, I don't know, Venezuela. Oh, I know I was trying to make you say I was trying to make you pick a socialist country.

Matt (18:51.745)
Well, I had to choose my favorite. My favorite is the United States. I love the United States.

yeah, well, I, so I would love it. Yeah, I don't know. I just don't see it as the existential threat to Christ, to the gospel that I think some libertarians do.

Shawn (19:15.522)
You don't see that it's a slippery slope. You don't see in history where people apply what you're talking about. Like how many times has a dictator justified, I'm gonna remove the freedoms, the freedom of press, for example, because I need to do what's better for our people. And then it goes to Nazism and it goes to, like look at Russia right now. Same, don't you see that that's the same?

Matt (19:28.758)
Sure.

Matt (19:33.397)
Yeah, but the international, the international order is anti-Russia, right? Most of the countries in the world are opposed to that. So I trust in the goodness of the people of the world to

Shawn (19:46.414)
But to have an internet, how would you practically apply an international order? You'd have to do away with sovereign countries, right? That's what your goal is.

Matt (19:52.214)
Yeah. I think we'll be okay with that. I mean, I think that's what Jesus's goal is when he comes again, he's going to get rid of all those countries. I think we can do it. I'm not afraid of that. I don't, yeah, I don't need local control of whatever I can just. Okay. All right. Well, speaking of favorite countries. Yeah.

Shawn (20:06.114)
I don't think you've thought through this enough, Wait, wait, wait. Before you transition, I want to hear you sing the song. There's a band called Ministry, Industrial Thrash Music, and there's a song called New World Order. I would like for you to sing it right now on the count of three. One, two, three.

Matt (20:22.836)
hahahaha

Matt (20:27.341)
Do you know what this reminds me of Sean? When we talked about Taylor Swift, you told me there was this band, this female band, I should go listen to their music because it's so artistic. So I go to the YouTube and it's three men basically like moving boxes on conveyor belts or something like that, stacking boxes. Maybe that's who it was. I thought if I described the music video, it would help you.

Shawn (20:28.529)
Yeah.

Shawn (20:37.218)
Yeah

Shawn (20:46.564)
Wait, did you listen to automatic?

Matt (20:54.753)
But basically the whole music video, they're just stacking boxes, moving boxes. And then it was the most bizarre stuff I had ever heard in my life. There was like a synthesizer, like, I don't know. was like, Sean.

Shawn (21:07.204)
What's wrong with synthesizers?

automatic.

Matt (21:11.797)
I think that could be the song. Yeah, that's weird stuff, Sean.

Shawn (21:18.232)
You gotta look past the four chord progression, the 12 year old girl singing in the mirrors, sad about her life. Look past those trivial basic things and you'll get a little depth to your artistic music, man.

Matt (21:23.322)
Matt (21:32.683)
Yeah, I'm not an artist. That's what I've decided. I'm just not an artist. I was like, I don't see it. Maybe I'm sexist. We should do that topic someday. Is Matt sexist? Because he does a lot interviews with people. He views of women.

Shawn (21:35.126)
You

Shawn (21:41.772)
you

Shawn (21:46.828)
I love it. That was the exact premise that you're trying to call me out because they're like to the shift. That's true, man. You don't like automatic. You must be sexist. Wow. I love it. I love how you just slapped yourself in the face. I love it.

Matt (22:01.677)
like the president of Argentina, although I don't think you follow anything he's been doing as president, but I know you liked him back in the day when he had a broom or a chainsaw or something like that. Did he do that before Elon Musk did the chainsaw was Elon Musk copying him when he did the chainsaw thing? Okay. Alright, so turns out he hasn't done so well as president the country is struggling economically.

Shawn (22:13.408)
chainsaw and sideburns.

Shawn (22:21.38)
Yeah, think he copied him,

Matt (22:30.903)
But good news, the United States, yeah.

Shawn (22:32.336)
Man, you say I haven't followed this guy, I've followed him. There are many metrics to judge whether or an economy is failing or not or struggling or not. You're picking one.

Matt (22:37.389)
okay.

Matt (22:45.035)
Let's use this one. They needed $20 billion from the United States. The US Treasury bought $20 billion of Argentinian pesos for no reason at all. According to the Treasury Secretary, it's not a bailout. Although people like farmers in the United States and some Democrats are kind of wondering why we would do this, why we would bail out this Latin American country.

Shawn (22:47.405)
OK.

hahahaha!

Matt (23:14.829)
The Treasury Department, this is what I think, their actions primarily benefit major global investors and wealthy fund managers like Robert Citrone and funds like BlackRock Fidelity and PIMCO. So the financial lifeline that we, this $20 billion where we purchased Argentinian pesos is going to help the Argentinian economy to not tank and it's going to protect these individuals investments in Latin America. So the question is,

Should we bail out Argentina's economy?

Shawn (23:48.388)
Let me just test your see if I understand your theory first. You're saying that all these like super Uber one percenters have so much invested in Argentina that the government has to do something really drastic in order to save their investments. You think that their whole investment theory and philosophy is Argentina?

Matt (24:05.525)
I think that these individuals are good friends with the Treasury Secretary Scott Besant. And I think that they came to him and they said, look, Argentina's economy is on the brink of collapse. And if it does, we're going to lose a lot of money. Could you take $20 billion and buy Argentinian pesos with that? And it would help stabilize the economy. It would also help Argentina's president who's running for reelection right now to be able to sort of like

turn things around a little bit and they said sure.

Shawn (24:36.84)
That just feels like you watched a cliche Netflix movie with a storyline of, rock bad, go screw the people of the United States over $20 billion because you don't think the black rock is diversified enough to not be affected by an Argentinian. They're not invested in Argentina enough to affect what they're doing.

Matt (24:58.817)
Well, what does this cost them, right? If we buy $20 billion worth of pesos, it doesn't cost BlackRock anything. Why not? Of all the things you're going to ask for from the US government, I mean, you could ask for a tax cut or you could ask for somebody to dump a bunch of money into a foreign economy to save your investment. And I think that that matters more to them than a tax cut.

Shawn (25:04.919)
Okay.

Shawn (25:19.074)
You don't think that the United States current administration sees someone like Millay as an ally and that has more to do with why they would do this?

Matt (25:28.149)
Okay, let's say that it's even that. Let's say that that's even the reason. Should we do it? Pick pick any reason you want to, Sean, why we should put $20 billion into the Argentinian economy instead of, I don't know, reopening the government or I've got like

Shawn (25:43.714)
Okay, Okay, the question, the real question is should the government do it? Should the US do this? Right? No.

Matt (25:48.865)
Yeah, my son is in the army and he's working for free right now. He's been and he's who knows if he's going to get paid for that because Trump likes to talk about

Shawn (25:56.772)
Well, you, before you asked the question, you inserted motives. You're the one that said, I'm going to start pointing fingers and insert motives before you got to the actual question. That was not necessary. So I'm just.

Matt (26:01.478)
hahahaha

Matt (26:07.261)
Okay. So you're going to say no to the bailout for any reason at all.

Shawn (26:14.416)
Like, is this not absolutely 100 % contrary to the entire platform of Donald Trump's America first, make America first, America first policy? Is it not?

Matt (26:23.147)
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, they were always complaining about giving weapons to Ukraine and stuff like that, right? We shouldn't be doing... Hmm. Okay.

Shawn (26:29.678)
That's right. That's what bothers me a lot is, is there's no, there's no consistency or platform. There just seems very little consistency in the plot. mean, there's certain, certain things that Trump does that are very consistent, right? And he's being consistent on the border for some reason, he's sticking to these tariffs, but there's other places where he's so inconsistent. Like this does, this is not making me, and I don't like that any of my MAGA friends who my love are not crying and shouting about this. Cause every time I talked about Ukraine or Israel,

Matt (26:38.029)
Yeah.

Matt (26:47.329)
the Epstein files.

Shawn (27:00.261)
man, we need to make America first man. This is when you put a well then where are you now? Why aren't you upset about this?

Matt (27:07.295)
Yeah. Okay. Well, then we agree on this. think that I think that there is a situation where you could justify bailing out Argentina. And that is if they're a strategic ally in the region, and you risk like if Argentina's government fails in some way, you risk the kind of like financial collapse in their society that would lead to mass refugees, mass migration, the kind of problems that we have in Venezuela right now, right? Or that happened in Central America. Like if we can

If we say, we're just going to buy 20 billion in pesos and that's going to prevent all these people from trying to migrate to the United States or migrate to Mexico or all this displacement. Fine. Like that's worth it to me. But if it's

Shawn (27:48.676)
Let's pretend that's let's pretend before you inserted a fake motive. Let's pretend that's the motive. So now you've switched your answer to yes

Matt (27:54.382)
If that's the motive, yeah, $20 billion is, I would do that every time. Yeah. So there are reasons. Well, why don't they say that? That'd be really, really helpful if they say that.

Shawn (27:59.67)
Okay, okay. Well, maybe that's the motive.

Shawn (28:08.156)
They didn't come out and say we've done this to support our friends at Blackrock.

Matt (28:12.941)
No, I know. They didn't actually give a reason. This is weird about the Trump administration. They never give you a reason why they're doing it. They just say, how dare you ask? Don't you know who we are? Do you know who I am? Yeah.

Shawn (28:24.196)
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Now here's my follow-up question, Matt. You're more of an economist than I am. Maybe you wouldn't qualify as an economist at all, but of all the benchmarks that the Malay presidency has done, like hyperinflation was at 211 % and now it's down to under 50. They shifted from about 3.5 % deficit to the first time having a surplus, a barely surplus, but it's a surplus.

Matt (28:53.805)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (28:54.276)
GDP growth rebounded from 2.5 % to 5%. Poverty rates rose sharply early on but has since eased from 43 % to 38%. So they're not like huge, huge, huge in some of those. are those...

Matt (29:09.997)
But if that's the case, then why do they need bailed out? Why you don't need to, yeah. The only reason we would buy Argentinian currency, their peso, is if demand for that currency is crashing. And the only reason demand for that currency would crash is if you're doing things as a government, like you're just spending kind of crazy wildly or just putting money to do things, right? So it suggests that there is inflation, that there...

Shawn (29:12.516)
Well, that's what I'm asking. That's what I'm asking. Yeah, that's what I'm asking. You're more of a...

Matt (29:37.195)
trying to artificially like stop the affiliate inflation. And that's what's

Shawn (29:40.75)
Well, 50 % inflation still is pretty bad, right? But being down from 211 % inflation.

Matt (29:44.278)
Could you imagine, could you imagine that kind of inflation, Sean? Like you wouldn't be able to buy anything. I will tell you this right now. If they've got 50 % inflation and we just spent $20 billion buying their currency, that's basically throwing that money out the window because at no point is it ever going to be like, those pesos, that was a great investment. Good job America. Like that $20 billion. That means like 50 % inflation means that like the pesos that we just bought today.

Shawn (29:53.252)
I don't know how they survive, but...

Matt (30:17.376)
by next year will be worth half whatever we paid for him and then half again whatever we paid for him. Like that's insane. Why would we do that?

Shawn (30:26.084)
would be very hard for you to be a politician to make these decisions because you're so good at seeing both sides of everything. I think you'd have decision paralysis.

Matt (30:31.232)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, know this is why I never will run for office because yeah, I would not be able to make a decision. I appreciate people who can just make a decision and watch everything burn around them and be like, well, I should run for reelection because I really like my job.

Shawn (30:49.674)
How else do do that? You do have to be very opinionated and make these tough decisions and stick to your guns. I guess then you have to be like, hey, I made a mistake there. Yeah, but that's hard on the conscience. That's hard.

Matt (31:01.076)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, people like to hear an apology. But then other people say, well, then that's weakness and you should step down or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of foreign policy, I've been waiting, waiting.

Shawn (31:15.182)
Well, but, okay, before you get into this one, I do like that you pose questions that you're able to flip-flop on, because you see both sides of things, but I always like that you insert your own, like, in the question itself, not in the answer, but in the question itself, you insert your own, like, here's what's really happening. That's how you sometimes read Matt's true opinions is, how did he ask the question? Yeah.

Matt (31:26.956)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (31:34.926)
in the question. I wasn't I don't know if I'm sure that that is what's happening. I just read a story that said that that's what's happening. So I was trying to be like, I didn't want to make it like the Argentinian president is no good, because I know you like him. So let's try. But it can't be it was a wise investment. It can't be the like, here's a great chance to make money, which is weird, right? Because Americans say they wanted Trump because they wanted somebody who would make wise financial decisions.

And this is them making a terrible financial decision.

Shawn (32:06.212)
Again, it would be a wise decision if the point was we have allies and we need to support them, but that contradicts the entire Trump administration saying we have more allies that support them. That's why it's also very confusing. guess now I'm going to flip-flop and say maybe there is some hidden selfish agenda because it's not consistent with what the... my gosh, dude. What a weird world.

Matt (32:14.518)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt (32:24.993)
Nothing else makes sense. Okay, Nigel Gould Davies, he works at the Council on Foreign Relations. These people like, think big thoughts about foreign policy. Do we? Okay, he argues that the Russia-Ukraine war has entered a dangerous new phase as Russia is now taking greater risks and acting more aggressively. This shift is happening because

Shawn (32:35.64)
You don't have to tell me that. all know who Nigel Gold Davies is. Don't have to explain that.

Matt (32:54.721)
four things have changed Russia's plans. I'll list all four from number one, America's diplomacy with Russia failed to achieve a decisive split with Ukraine. Two, Europe is increasing its defense spending and speeding up new economic sanctions, including a large loan to Ukraine using frozen Russian assets. Three, China has become a stronger partner by agreeing to a major new gas pipeline. And four,

As of the last four or five months, Russia's own economy is struggling with high interest rates and labor shortages, while military production is at its maximum capacity. Because time may no longer favor Russia, it is now trying to undermine the West's resolve through risky moves like air incursions, hoping to win before its enemies can use their greater power. The US just sent troops into Gaza to monitor the ceasefire.

Is now the time for the United States to take an aggressive stance against Russia in Ukraine? Is global conflict inevitable? If so, should we take action when the moment is right rather than waiting until it is inevitably thrust upon us?

Shawn (34:07.278)
Okay, so are you asking this in the context of the current administration or are you just stepping back and going, what's the right thing to do?

Matt (34:15.36)
What's the right thing to do here? I think broadly Americans don't want to get involved in a conflict in Russia. And I think broadly Americans are probably rightly afraid of what will happen if we start World War III. But my question is more along the lines of it seems like World War III is inevitable because Putin is not going to back down. So if Putin doesn't back down, there is no choice but eventual conflict with Russia.

and China.

Shawn (34:44.79)
Why are you equating? So you think that, I mean, loosely defining World War Three, you think no matter what, if the US gets involved in that war, World War Three exists? That's what's happening? Because China will support Russia and Europe will support the US.

Matt (34:56.394)
I think no more... Russia.

Right. think I personally think World War Three has already happened in that the battle lines, the battle lines are drawn. The players. So you have the BRICS country, right? Brazil, Russia, India, China, and Iran, should put in that group as well. But those countries have formed an alliance against what I would say is like the United States and Europe and China.

Shawn (35:07.128)
What do mean?

Shawn (35:11.043)
Which are what?

Matt (35:28.584)
is in a position where they're going to try to now assert their global dominance. And they're going to do it through places like Russia. I don't know if you're aware that they put huge, they actually banned China from purchasing soybean from the United States. So a lot of our farmers are in dire straits because they can't sell their products because China is only going to purchase soybean from the BRICS countries. And there's all this like national, there's like,

the pipeline that Russia has been wanting to build to China. Now China's allowing that to happen. And then China has pledged its military support behind Russia. yeah, I think, I think world war three is inevitable. There's nothing that can be done to stop it now because Russia will not back down and China will not back down from supporting Russia and those other bricks countries financially and militarily.

Shawn (36:20.196)
But everything you just described, those are economic policies, right? Why do you equate that with a world war?

Matt (36:29.79)
economic policies that are designed to weaken the United States resolve or ability to fight militarily. Because if, if the U S economy crashes, then what the United States is going to do is it's going to put money into bailing out different industries in different sectors in the United States. And it won't be able to afford to do military.

Shawn (36:37.208)
Why do those things?

Shawn (36:47.772)
So you're saying that the alliance, you're saying that China Russia alliance, the intention is not for economic growth. It's too. It's literally as a tactic to weaken the US.

Matt (36:58.452)
Yes. And what's hurting Russia's economy the most right now is that you have Russian oil prices have fallen. And the reason Russian oil prices have fallen is because OPEC is pumping out so much oil to try to artificially reduce the price of oil because they want to have the US producers go out of business because we produce oil from shale.

and shale has to be $70 a barrel or more in order for that to be profitable. So there's like, there's a global movement trying to weaken both US companies and the US broadly. And so I think that that's the World War III that's inevitable. So the question is if it's inevitable, don't we strike Russia now while they're weak and there's potential to overthrow Putin? Or is it best to just say like kind of what a lot of Americans are saying,

World War III is not inevitable, we're gonna be okay.

Shawn (37:55.844)
I was going to say, what percentage of active politicians in the US would agree with you that World War III is inevitable?

Matt (38:03.168)
Well, I don't know the answer to that because we don't do polling on that. But I would just say historically, historically, if you just look at like what happened in the lead up to World War Two, everybody in the United States was doing everything they could to avoid getting involved in World War Two. And, and also in Europe, right? As Hitler is invading country after country, Europe's trying to like say, we don't want war, we don't want war, and they would capitulate, right? Until Pearl Harbor happens.

Shawn (38:07.566)
Yeah.

Matt (38:32.904)
and our Navy is decimated and then we say, okay, now we have no choice but to get in.

Shawn (38:37.54)
But this is a bold stance you're taking that World War III has already started and is inevitable, right? Because the alternative thought would be there's always going to be alliances that are trying to economically improve their power, not necessarily to the point of war and for the purpose of destroying other countries, but just to position themselves better. Not necessarily to destroy the United States, but just to be in a better position.

Matt (38:53.238)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (39:03.918)
Like what if your prediction is wrong that the intention behind China and Russia and Brazil and India is to destroy the US, but rather is let's just keep competing with the US. That's okay. Let the US thrive. China benefits from the growth. Like I read an article today that says the US creates China copies. And I don't remember the third one, but the idea that China doesn't really innovate all that much means that they benefit from the creativity and the growth of the United States.

and then just.

Matt (39:34.016)
Yeah, but that's changing. That's all changing. And and the tariff policies, the hard stance that we're taking against China, we're trying to use soft power to get China to obey the rules or play by the rules or whatever. I just think it's to me, it seems clear from the war parade that they had in China, when you had Putin and you had Chi and you had Kim Jong Un there, it's clear what their intention is, and their intention is not peaceful.

Shawn (40:01.988)
So you would write a policy if you were in government that is all around the war has started, the BRICS company or countries are already strategically engaged in this war, therefore we need to. Wow.

Matt (40:10.165)
countries.

Matt (40:17.021)
Yeah, we need to strategically take out targets before they weaken us. Yeah.

Shawn (40:22.638)
See, this is one of those moments where I look at you, Matt, and go, you're so good at seeing both sides of things, and you, not rarely, but oftentimes, your role in life is to spark these thoughts in so many people. But sometimes you have this resolved decision, and it's like, wow, that's a bold decision right there, man.

Matt (40:41.865)
Yeah, I-

I think that Russia is weak right now, probably at the weakest that they're ever going to be. And I think that if, and that if we do nothing, all that happens is by the way, it's not just about on the military battlefield, right? Who is trying to sow discord, trouble, fighting, who's like hacking in the United States? Like so many things that are happening that are causing internal strife in the United States are members of these BRICS countries, Russia, China, and Iran, we know.

are regularly trying to attack our digital infrastructure. They're trying to sow discord in the United States. They're trying to sow disinformation in the United States. Like they're fighting us right now and we're doing nothing in response to any of that stuff. And our soft power has always been a threat of tariffs. But since Trump throws tariffs at everything, it's like the parents who say, well, I'm gonna ground you for another two weeks. And the kid's like.

Well, I'm already grounded until I'm 15 years old. Well, then you're grounded until you're 16 years old. It loses all of its, we have no other tools to use because we just keep using the same tariff tools. We should use the stuff that we have to take the fight to them rather than thinking we can somehow peacefully persuade them to stop wanting to fight us.

Shawn (42:00.996)
So in your opinion, is the nuclear threat worth simmering down this opinion you have? with the idea that World War III, because the opposite opinion would be World War III has not started, these, sure, that there's clear lines that have been drawn, but really the only battle that's happening right now is Russia, Ukraine, or basically the EU in Russia, right?

Matt (42:09.181)
I don't...

Matt (42:24.243)
Yeah. Well, you saw the, you saw what happened in Iran. We took out their nuclear program overnight. And that means we have the technology that we can fly bombers and destroy many, many, many nuclear weapons in Russia, and they won't be able to detect us or shoot us down or fight us in any way. So if, if, if nuclear weapons is what we're really afraid of, we could, we, that should be the move.

Just go get rid of their nuclear weapons. Maybe not all of them, but enough of them that they no longer have more than anybody else in the world. Like that's a really simple thing to do, right?

Shawn (42:55.556)
Hahaha

That's crazy to think, man. Wow. Okay. Okay.

Matt (43:00.679)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not a warmonger, Sean. not that I want world peace. want everybody to stop fighting. But at some point, it's like, if you don't do anything, you can't like just avoid war by not wanting war. If war is inevitable, then you have to like think about what you can do to make sure that the good guys win in the war.

Shawn (43:21.604)
So do you wish that George W. Bush was the president right now?

Matt (43:24.871)
No. No, not George W. Bush.

Shawn (43:26.212)
Why not he take us all over places to go to war why not? He would have gone to Russia at this point

Matt (43:30.123)
Well, I like him as like, yeah, I wish let me think let's, let's see who I could have. I would actually want General Petraeus as our president right now. The mastermind of the troop surge. I actually just want people with good military knowledge running the government right now, right? I don't want Pete Hegseth who like was a Fox News guy running the Defense Department. And I want

Shawn (43:42.35)
Ha

Shawn (43:58.189)
He served in the military?

Matt (43:59.984)
sure he did. don't want the short he served in the military. But I don't want people when their primary focus is to be like, I'm going to gather all the generals in Washington, what we're gonna do is talk about transgender people in the military and fat people in the military. Like, let's if you're going to get all the generals together, can we talk about something of substance? Like, how do we stop the threat of World War Three that's right at our doorsteps? I want that kind of thinking.

Shawn (44:26.99)
These things are so complicated, man. I'm glad when you have strong opinions on stuff, yeah, I mean, you've based your strong opinion on some assumptions, right? Like World War III has already started. gosh, man, that's...

Matt (44:35.083)
Yeah. Yeah. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. It's very interesting for people like for Trump to say I want the Nobel Peace Prize because I negotiated peace in the Middle East after watching Israel just kill thousands of people who were unarmed, right? And to think we're in this. Now I'm in a position to negotiate peace throughout the world. It's like, no.

What happened in Israel and Gaza is not going to promote more peace. There's actually going to be more war that happens there as a result of what? Of that peace deal.

Shawn (45:09.284)
Well, yeah, I guess it depends on what, like, do we know the details of that? We're not pivoting. We can't pivot to that topic. That'll go down a rabbit hole. Yeah. Okay. Well, so, but I mean, from your question, to get back to the question, from the stance of a country in our world who was self-guiding itself to democracy and trying to overcome, like, Ukraine was that country.

Matt (45:15.005)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want to pivot that. Yeah.

Matt (45:37.963)
Corruption. Oh, yeah.

Shawn (45:39.256)
Yeah, they were trying, they were moving towards that. So in the interest of let's get Ukraine to be that strong buffer between this corrupt Russia and Europe, yeah, I mean, I think that's a better argument for let's get maybe get involved or let's get more strategically involved. I don't know about we are going to destroy China and Russia, so there's four let's go. I don't know.

Matt (45:54.741)
Okay.

Matt (46:02.463)
We don't have to destroy China. just have to weaken it. Like if all of this natural gas starts flowing into China directly from Russia, that isolates them from the rest of the world and it allows them to become more of a rogue state if they choose to be, which I think they would choose to be.

Shawn (46:20.356)
How do you, like really you would intervene just to stop that? Wow, that is very like, no, I never played risk like you nerds on the mission, like would sit for hours on P-Day. Guess what I did on P-Day? I did my laundry, I ate my food, I listened to the band Kino, and then I went to work while you nerds played risk.

Matt (46:24.863)
Yes. Yes. Yes. You played Risk, Sean?

Matt (46:33.429)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (46:42.143)
You've never played risk in your entire life.

Shawn (46:44.58)
Why would I? Am I a nerd? I'm a nerd.

Matt (46:48.583)
I only did it on the mission, which should tell me something about myself. Now I play with my kids sometimes. Well, if you're in playing the game of risk and you see a neighboring country amassing armies, then you know what's gonna happen is they're going to attack you, because there's no reason to amass armies there unless they're going to attack you. And there's other things that countries do on the global stage that are equivalent to amassing armies on borders to let you know they're gonna attack.

Shawn (47:15.652)
Okay, all right, okay.

Matt (47:16.945)
Sean, if, if China were to invade Taiwan next week, would you be surprised and say, I didn't see that coming at all? Yeah. Okay. Let's move to the big question, Sean. I've been waiting to ask this question for a long time.

Shawn (47:23.16)
No, I guess not, Okay, that's a good point.

Okay. I hate that you think that you did me a favor by throwing to me a... Before you went into this really political question, you think you did me a favor by asking me a really religious question, but your question was, do we think Antichrist is this one guy? That was such a lame religious question. We didn't get to talk religion. There's no real doctrine there. That was so weak, Matt. So weak.

Matt (47:40.137)
Ha

I'm sorry.

Matt (47:53.558)
But that's why we get this week's big question. So in section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants, truth is defined as knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come. Moroni 10.5 promises that by the power of the Holy Ghost, we may know the truth of all things. So the big question, Sean, for the man who wants to talk religion, what is truth? Is it knowable?

Shawn (47:55.917)
Okay.

Matt (48:19.783)
In this life, can we ever actually come to a knowledge of truth? Can we really ever know things as they really are? That's the question. There's, there's your religion question, Sean. And by the way, my answer to this is no. In this life, we can never actually come to a knowledge of the truth.

Shawn (48:30.884)
Hahaha

Shawn (48:37.518)
because of the limitations of mortality, the fall. Is that why your answer is no?

Matt (48:44.075)
Um, hmm. I haven't thought about it in that way. Yeah. I, my reason for saying no is in Isaiah 55, right? My, my ways are higher than thy way. let's see. Um, yeah, the God sees things differently than we do. So I believe there's that him, right? The, the truth will endure to the last and truth like

Shawn (48:47.32)
Well, you had to have some reason for saying no. What's your reason for saying no?

Shawn (48:59.96)
Yes.

Matt (49:11.323)
O say what is truth that him like I love everything that says about truth and it's like yes, I love the truth. I want to embrace the truth. I want to find all truth, but I just think we can never truly if truth is knowledge of things as they really are as they really were as they really will be. I don't think we can come to that knowledge in this life.

Shawn (49:31.652)
So I'll take that a step further. I love in this mission prep stuff, by the way, go listen to the mission stories podcast listeners, please. But in the missions in this class I teach for many, many years, I love introducing to these kids this concept of when you're on a mission, your whole goal is to help people learn truth through the Holy Ghost, not through you, not your teaching, yours. I love the story of Joseph Smith teaching us

Matt (49:41.056)
Yeah.

Shawn (49:59.178)
in the Joseph Smith history in such a lame, weak way. I was so upset when Joseph was describing that God the Father and the Son appeared to him. And the way that he knew it was God the Father and the Son was how, Matt? How did he know? I don't know, I just made you a student. You stole my thunder. That's not how he described it. He said, I saw them and I heard them. He saw them and I heard them. Didn't he not? And I was always upset by that. But then,

Matt (50:13.834)
Their brightness and glory defy all description.

Matt (50:19.562)
Oh. Oh. Okay. Yes. Yes.

Shawn (50:28.77)
that verse that you brought in, which of course you have a heart for, that when he said, their brightness and their glory defied description, I started asking myself, why does it defy description? And then if it defies description, why did you describe it? Brightness and glory describes what you're experiencing. Why does that defy what you're actually experiencing? And I think that was a really powerful way for Joseph to say,

the Spirit or the Holy Ghost was what was convincing me that God is there and Christ is there, which is powerful, right? Because then if that's the case, then I know just as powerfully as Joseph knows that God lives and Jesus Christ lives because that's how I know. And the words brightness and glory are really inadequate ways. And that's why Joseph really powerfully said, it defies description what I'm experiencing. How I truly know the truth that God and Jesus lives,

defies description in my mortal words. And with that, I loved going through scripture and going, let me pick all, let me find out all of the inadequate mortal words that people are trying to use to describe how they know truth. And it's all pretty weak, right? A mighty rushing wind, a still small voice, a burning in my bosom, a bush that is a burning bush, right? All of these words, they don't describe anything. It's just someone's mortal

expression of I think I'm feeling this thing that is convincing me of truth, but more into my mortal, like weak ways, I can't, it's inadequate. I can't express. So I think along those lines, I think I agree with you, Matt, that we can't really, maybe we can know truth, but we can't express it. There's no way in mortal terms can we express it.

Matt (52:14.697)
Well, then what does it mean when we say, know the church is true?

Shawn (52:17.54)
See, I challenge the kids with that all the time.

Matt (52:19.547)
there's so many things we say, I know this is true. I know the Book of Mormon is true. Right? So

Shawn (52:26.596)
Yeah. Yet the Book of Mormon, some of the words in the Book of Mormon over time have been changed. So were they true before that word got changed or was it true now?

Matt (52:32.192)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (52:36.939)
So then I think what we mean when we say I know the church is true is we say, know the church is a path through which I can ultimately know all truth someday.

Shawn (52:46.308)
Say it again.

Matt (52:49.683)
I know that the church is the path through which I can ultimately know all truth someday.

Shawn (52:54.2)
it's true in the sense that I can trust it completely because I have a faith that God is at the helm, he is running this thing and I trust him. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.

Matt (52:57.525)
Yeah.

Matt (53:03.584)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (53:07.411)
And we can know the truth that God exists, we can know the truth that Jesus exists and that he's our savior and redeemer, but I don't know that we can know much more about them in a truth kind of way. We can know that they love us.

Shawn (53:21.124)
See, that's where I would say though, but that's where I would say Joseph Smith in that garden, he experienced the truth of them. He couldn't express it with his mortal words. So we would have a hard time with that. But I think deep down, I have the same experience, right? On those times where I'm on my knees repenting or praying, and I feel God's presence, right in that moment, there's some deep abiding truth. And I feel like this mortal flesh kind of...

That kind of blocks the entire experience of that, but I still feel that deep abiding truth. No?

Matt (53:53.459)
Yeah. No, I agree with you. I guess what I would say is I wouldn't say that we can never actually come to a knowledge of truth in this life. I would say what we can know the truth about is very limited in this life. There are a handful of things that you can really know the truth of it.

Shawn (54:11.97)
Okay, I think I'm gonna agree with you again, because of the premise of our mortal flesh, it gets in the way of us comprehending true spiritual truth, right? Because the scripture say, when body and spirit is inseparably connected, then and only then do you have the ability to have a fullness of joy, which I'll equate with a fullness of knowledge. Like I don't think, I can agree with you there. So as long as we're mortal and separably connected, we can't have a fullness of joy, probably can't have a fullness of knowledge.

Matt (54:21.268)
Yeah.

Matt (54:27.113)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (54:41.774)
kind of equate. So I'll agree with you.

Matt (54:42.698)
And we can't really see things as they truly are.

Shawn (54:46.242)
Yes, I agree with that, but at what point does that paradigm allow you to question every single established truth in quotes that has been put out there by the church?

Matt (55:04.532)
Well, so that's what I think that we, I think that we hold onto a lot of truths that aren't truths, right? And I can say, I believe that the church is led by Christ. I think that's a truth. I think that's something that's, that I can hold onto. But then beyond that, I don't know that there's a lot of things that were like, this is true, right? Like this is eternal. This is like unchanging. This is

Yeah, I just think there's just only a handful of those, right? So what I can say is true is no, no, no, no, No, I mean, you can pick anything. You could pick even the definition of marriage that we talked about recently, right? What marriage is. Can I say marriage is truth? Like, I don't even know how it's always been and how it will be and what it is and all of that stuff, right? So I can, I know that when I get promptings from the Holy Ghost, that's guiding me to truth.

Shawn (55:34.936)
You're talking about gender. You're talking about gender. You're talking about.

Shawn (55:43.759)
Yeah.

Matt (55:58.24)
but it's not necessarily giving me clarity of information more than it's just saying like, this is the path you should follow because salvation is what matters and this is how you obtain salvation. But all of those little details along the way, I think we embrace some of them as truth that aren't really true.

Shawn (56:14.766)
So here's another example maybe. I preach all the time. think the scriptures preach louder than anything. The first foundational principles that we should grasp and teach and try and study our whole life, our faith and repentance, covenants of baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, is repentance and eternal truth? Like when we're in the celestial kingdom, will we be repenting or will we

Matt (56:34.863)
Um, no, think repentance is a part of the plan of salvation, right? I don't know if it's mortal, but salvation comes through Christ and those are the conditions he set.

Shawn (56:39.662)
So it's just a mortal truth.

Shawn (56:48.366)
But only when you sin. like in the celestial, like there's another truth. Will we sin in the celestial kingdom after you've resurrected? We know we won't have the opposition of the mortal flesh, but will we always perfectly make decisions? And when we don't, when we make a mistake, how is that remedied? Is that, yeah, so you're saying that all these truths.

Matt (56:55.039)
I have no idea. No idea.

Matt (57:07.209)
I don't even think I can know what is sin and what isn't sin in a truth kind of a way, right? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (57:15.562)
It's a deep question. That's a really deep question. It's a lot deeper than...

Matt (57:21.035)
It's more religious than the anti-Christ. And I don't really know the answer. just say, need to choose questions. Like sometimes I read the scriptures and I'm like, I wonder what Sean thinks about this. I'm like, we're gonna talk about this on the podcast.

Shawn (57:24.3)
You

Shawn (57:35.246)
So you're thinking, yeah, I do love the idea that there's one thing on this planet, just one singular thing that is so protected and so true that I can put my absolute trust in and I call that canonized scripture. And the prophets are people and so they can make mistakes, but they can always default or add to the canonized scripture and I can have 100 % trust in that. And I don't know if that.

Matt (57:57.503)
Yeah, I say the one thing I can believe in and trust in is Jesus. Jesus never changes. Other than that.

Shawn (58:06.34)
Yeah, but you're also saying that he's not going to communicate to you the things that are true in your mortal experience sometimes. He's gonna be like, all right, Matt is a young baby. He's a baby face, Matt needs to learn these things. So I'm not gonna give him the full truth. I'm gonna give him this little thing that will guide him to the truth because he's young and because he needs to grow. And you're saying, I can just trust Christ. I can just trust Christ in that. So you don't think that the...

Matt (58:20.436)
Yeah.

Matt (58:30.09)
Because we need to grow. Yeah.

Shawn (58:34.776)
God intends us to fully grasp or have knowledge of truth in this mortal existence then.

Matt (58:39.882)
I think it's not possible. But I also think that your trust in canonized scripture, don't, I can't go there, right? Because song of Solomon is canonized scripture. And I just can't embrace song of Solomon as, and then doctrine and covenants section 136 about Kirtland government, whatever stuff is canonized scripture. I guess that's not 136. 136 is organizing for, uh, to go to Utah, but

Shawn (59:01.164)
Why can't that be true about the Kirtland

Shawn (59:08.674)
Yeah, but why can't that be true for that historical moment? It doesn't have to apply to you. You don't have to move to Utah.

Matt (59:13.514)
I'm not saying I'm not trying to tear down anyone's faith in canonized scripture, Sean. I'm just saying I don't embrace that in the same way you do.

Shawn (59:18.585)
You

Shawn (59:22.724)
But it does say, you're talking about faith and truth, Faith is, you hear the word of God and that is what grows our faith in truth. And the scriptures are the word of God.

Matt (59:31.72)
Yeah. Yes. And they build faith in Christ. I think that Christ is the one thing we can have faith in that doesn't that's reliable. And as much as we can, again, we don't know anything about the truth of him as he was or as he is to be we're limited in our understanding what we know about that. But what we do know we can have faith in and and complete trust that that truth is true.

Shawn (59:50.884)
Wow, this is deep.

Shawn (59:58.02)
Deep, this is a deep, this is a complicated topic, man. This is a good one. I didn't anticipate you asking this kind of question.

Matt (59:58.194)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (01:00:06.898)
I put it in the show notes, Sean. You could have read that in advance and seen it.

Shawn (01:00:10.315)
No, I No, mean before you put it in the show notes.

Matt (01:00:15.498)
I see. Yeah, well, that's all right. Hey, listener, let us know what you think about this. And many other things. We would love to hear what you guys say about the Antichrist. Like to me, that's fascinating. Maybe you think Sean's take on the Antichrist was way off. Also, Sean had some crazy things about World War Three. Maybe you want to like walk him off the ledge a little bit. Regardless, thanks for listening. Hope you'll join us again next week. Let us know what you think.

Shawn (01:00:38.321)
Hahahaha