Matt (00:01.346)
Hi everybody and welcome to the Latter Day Lens. I'm your host Matt. Along with me here today is Sean and Mark. Mark, it's good to have you. Mark, you are dressed like a British soldier. Is that the wrong way to say it? A British soldier?

Marc (00:07.426)
Bye. thanks.

Shawn (00:11.671)
Ha

Marc (00:16.759)
Well, that would be correct, representing the 33rd Regiment of Foot Circa of War for Independence.

Matt (00:24.802)
The anniversary of lot of those battles is coming up,

Marc (00:28.498)
Yes, in fact that's, you might recall I was in Boston last month for the 250th Lexington and Concord.

Matt (00:35.444)
And what's the next one you're going to do?

Marc (00:38.178)
The next big one will be White Plains in October next year, but this 4th July, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, if anyone's in Utah, come to Sarah Park in Orem for a big colonial festival.

Matt (00:51.296)
Really? I might make the trip to Orem just for that. I love Sarah Park, but I also love colonial festivals.

Shawn (00:52.183)
Marc (00:57.43)
Please.

No, it's the biggest one west of the Mississippi with, I think, three to five hundred reenactors, tradespeople, and so on. Really, you just have to go to the British camp. The American camp's boring, but God save the king.

Matt (01:11.278)
Have you ever been to a Renaissance Fairmark?

Marc (01:16.65)
in my youth.

Matt (01:18.062)
How is a civil or revolutionary war patriotism fair different than a Renaissance fair?

Marc (01:26.013)
Less gay. No, sorry. It's Pride Month. I'm allowed to make jokes.

Shawn (01:28.104)
boy. boy.

Matt (01:31.584)
You can make it. You're always allowed to make jokes, Mark. Nobody.

Marc (01:33.281)
A Renaissance Faire is more about capturing just kind of a fun vibe, whereas for the Colonial Heritage Festival, we are really trying to be strict and exacting on down to the nature of hand-sewn buttonholes and things are being made correctly so that when you come, you're not just like, it's kind of silly people. Instead, you're able to say, these are actual historians who are studying and

diligent and you get a glimpse of the 18th century.

Matt (02:04.002)
That's kind of exciting. That's kind of Sean, you want to do something like that?

Shawn (02:09.641)
Only if it's with you and Mark. I would with you and Mark for sure.

Matt (02:13.059)
What about you and like just any other random people you've unfit to?

Shawn (02:16.451)
I mean, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd, I mean, I'm glad that there's a space in this world for those of you who are passionate about it because all he's replaced is his pirate hat with the MAGA hat.

Matt (02:28.174)
Pirates of a different generation. But Sean, you go to some pretty eclectic music festivals. You'll go that nobody's ever heard of these people. It could be their first time ever performing.

Shawn (02:32.076)
Yeah.

Shawn (02:38.435)
That's true.

Shawn (02:43.733)
I just went to Pinback. Pinback was awesome. Amazing show.

Matt (02:46.262)
Yeah. So I don't know, like you both seem to go to things that I would never go to.

Shawn (02:51.235)
Matt, but you like to go travel the world and just look at museums or monuments... churches.

Matt (02:57.294)
True. Churches. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I love to go to big churches from other countries.

Shawn (03:03.627)
You know, I'd save the three of us. My hobby is the coolest. No?

Marc (03:08.605)
Matt (03:08.736)
Okay, this, yeah, Mark likes his thing.

Shawn (03:10.955)
You

Marc (03:13.095)
I I get to walk around with guns.

Matt (03:15.778)
Hey Mark, I gotta ask you this. Did you hear what Donald Trump said about Bruce Springsteen?

Marc (03:23.994)
That is not in the topics that you sent out.

Matt (03:25.902)
I just wanted to walk. wanted to walk. Like, okay. There's I just wanted to see how Mark reacted to that. Okay. We got a couple of things I'm going to read from the mailbag this week. Okay, the first one is one listener writes says, I was honored to get a shout out on one of the most listened to podcasts I would love to come on the show.

Shawn (03:27.966)
Is that a painful memory and experience, Mark?

Marc (03:33.641)
Yeah, I'm just not paying attention to either of them.

Shawn (03:37.741)
Just ignoring it.

Shawn (03:42.019)
Ha

Matt (03:54.562)
to promote my campaign. Love, the future president of the United States. Did we shout out the future president of the United States? Maybe I missed that.

Marc (04:03.913)
Well, they said it was one of the most listened to podcasts. So which one was it?

Matt (04:07.022)
I love it. Sean, do you remember us talking about if you're a future if you want to run for president join our podcast. We lost Sean.

Shawn (04:07.875)
Hey listen, if it's your daughter that's the future president, then I'm here to campaign. But I'm not sure who this is.

Marc (04:18.635)
Well, I don't remember in Sean's place. But I also don't listen to this podcast. I'm joking. Again, it's a fun night. We're having a good time.

Matt (04:21.28)
Okay. Alright.

No problem, Mark. Okay, another listener writes in and says, wait, is that is that Sean? Sean? Are you back? No, we're gonna move on.

Marc (04:31.136)
I said.

Marc (04:39.784)
That's alright, we got Matthew and Mark, this is the New Testament Hour.

Matt (04:43.182)
Another listener wrote in and said, what is the podcast where you interviewed Judge Griffith? I know you co-host this week in Mormons, but I didn't see it there in the search. Also more Melanie, she's my favorite, such a smart, articulate, critical thinker and girl power for the win. Hey, Sean's back, welcome back Sean. Sean.

Shawn (05:02.136)
Yeah.

Yeah, sorry, sorry. I was trying to, I was trying to say in the last one about the future president. If that was Melanie, if Melanie is our future president, then I'm all in on the campaign. And then this next comment just verifies Melanie is the best.

Matt (05:10.39)
Yeah.

That's true. I do not think she wants to run for president of the United States. Did we Sean in the previous podcast say if you want to run for president, join our podcast. okay. Well, Judge Griffith that was that was on this week in Mormons. That episode is going to drop I think this week for this week in Mormons. And it's true. We love Melanie, but we love Mark. We love all of our co-hosts, but Melanie is my daughter, so I love her the most.

Shawn (05:20.097)
Selfish. That's just a selfish decision.

Shawn (05:26.209)
I don't remember.

Marc (05:45.147)
Only complaint is the audience has never mentioned me, but whatever.

Matt (05:45.528)
Okay.

Matt (05:49.102)
Mark, one of our listeners specifically wrote in a question about Trump and Bruce Springsteen just for you.

Marc (05:58.501)
well you didn't tell me that. Geez. You're just making that up aren't you? That's... Huh.

Matt (06:01.45)
No, it's yeah. Well, it's a no, no, it's 100 % true. We read it on an episode where you weren't hosting and then they were like, Hey, you were supposed to read that when Mark was hosting and I was like, oops, sorry.

Marc (06:13.288)
Well, mean, you could ask it now.

Matt (06:16.14)
Mark, what do you think about Trump and Bruce Springsteen?

Marc (06:21.565)
You know, I don't know why I had, cause you already asked it. So why did I want to walk into it again? I don't know. It's. I, the medicine's not working for me.

Matt (06:24.526)
It's hard Mark when two people you love don't get along. This happens to people in life. Sometimes you love two people and they don't like each other. It's okay.

Marc (06:40.497)
I understand now what it is to be a child of divorce.

Matt (06:46.13)
I like it. All right, we're gonna move on to the thought provoker. So if you've been watching the news, you're aware of this or if you only watch the kind of news I watch you're aware of this. Lots of people are escaping from jail lately. There's a mean former cop in Arkansas who's on the run. And two of the 10 New Orleans escapees are still on the run. I don't know if you guys have been paying attention to this but

10 people ran out of a jail in New Orleans. And the question is this though, if you had a loved one who escaped from jail, what would you do?

Shawn (07:22.349)
Matt, I'm noticing a theme in all the questions. And I first have to, before I answer, I need to ask you the question. Did you watch or read Les Mis this week or something? Because these questions are all about justice and mercy. It's like the Les Mis story.

Matt (07:24.888)
Yeah.

Matt (07:31.534)
It is a little bit. It is. I've been watching a lot of court TV. think I mentioned this. I'm fascinated by like these, every time I watch these stories of people escaping from jail, which is happening a lot lately, I think to myself, what would I do if it was like my brother or my dad or my sister or my mom? can't, I'm sorry, mama. You would never go to jail, but if you did.

Shawn (07:43.139)
Well, you do that all the time.

Shawn (08:01.261)
There's, can I take the Malam and say Malam Prohobotham argument here?

Matt (08:05.324)
yeah, Sean, our listeners have not heard enough of that. Let's see Malam and say is something that's morally wrong and Malam prohibit him is just something that's legally wrong.

Shawn (08:08.013)
haha

Marc (08:08.671)
Now, the state senator is indubitably a matter of malice and say, but the shooting of the dog is merely malice by evidence.

Shawn (08:10.871)
I think it applies.

Shawn (08:18.114)
Basically, yeah.

Matt (08:19.456)
Okay, well, so this cop... Go ahead, Chuck.

Matt (08:25.934)
That really helped me figure that out. Well, so this cop in Arkansas like raped and murdered people.

Shawn (08:27.191)
Nice, you're quoting the movie.

Marc (08:28.936)
Yeah!

Shawn (08:34.851)
There you go, Malam and Say. Malam and Say.

Matt (08:36.844)
Okay. Okay.

Marc (08:37.308)
You were about to say Mount Prohibited. Hold on, hold on.

Shawn (08:42.339)
Right? Because we read through all scripture where it talks about justice. For example, I was just reading yesterday and it says, now there was a punishment of fakes and a just law given which brought remorse of conscience unto men. I think that has to do with Malam and say, right? If there are laws that are eternal, natural, universal laws that are God's laws or that govern the universe, those things are going to have these natural consequences, like remorse of conscience. So some cop who rapes someone.

Yeah, that's naturally evil. But if the guy has 500 parking tickets, that's, I mean, I don't know. So if this is your beloved brother, Matt, and it's the parking tickets thing and he's at your house, are you going to rat on him? Are you going to be like,

Matt (09:18.125)
Then it's fine.

Matt (09:23.341)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (09:29.206)
I'm not ratting out anyone in my family for anything they do. If they escape from jail and they come to my house, I'm helping them get to Mexico or Canada or wherever they need to get to.

Shawn (09:39.391)
Isn't that isn't that you breaking the law? Isn't that aiding and abetting if you knowingly if you know that these are criminals and and you aid and abet them isn't that breaking the law yourself?

Marc (09:40.99)
the

Matt (09:50.134)
Yeah, but once they

Marc (09:51.247)
and what they were guilty, provably guilty of a very heinous malamence crime such as a shooter or something, would you still say, let's get you to Mexico, shoot people down there.

Matt (10:02.785)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I, I can't stand the idea of living my life in jail. So once a family member shows up at my house, I'm already stuck. No matter what I do, I'm in trouble. either turn in my family and I can't turn my back on my family or I go to jail, right? There's nothing I can do to. So yeah, I help them. I help them get out of the country. And then if they start to try to arrest me,

Shawn (10:07.539)
Matt, you would not.

Marc (10:08.749)
Alright, that's a choice.

Matt (10:33.517)
And they're like, pull over, pull over. I'm not pulling over. They're going to shoot me and kill me dead because I'm not going to jail.

Matt (10:42.786)
That seems reasonable, right Mark?

Yeah, that's okay. What would you do, Mark, if they showed up at your house?

Marc (10:50.493)
I'll answer it this way and I've got like a 99.9999 % chance no one will hear that matters is the picture of my brother that I show people is his mugshot. So I, cause I think it's Like, like my brother's mugshot. And there was like, Oh, that's not what it is. Oh, Drugs and scar. Cool. So I turn them in.

Matt (10:57.518)
you

Matt (11:01.08)
See?

You

Matt (11:14.424)
So if he, you would turn him in?

Marc (11:18.365)
Especially for Malaminsay, it's Malamprohibitem, alright, we can have a discussion. I'm gonna try to convince them to turn themselves in. But Malaminsay, nah, you've done something morally reprehensible, get the hints, child of hell.

Matt (11:33.312)
Well, can't we just say let God judge it? Like in the end, God's going to be the most merciful and just person to judge them, right? I can't. I'm not going to look.

Marc (11:41.98)
God does his work to us.

Shawn (11:42.187)
Matt, but Matt, do you take the article of faith, we believe in being subject to King's presence, rules of magistrates, and obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law, and if the law is don't abed and aid, whether it's your family member or not, wouldn't you be breaking the law?

Marc (11:50.524)
NNNN

Marc (11:58.437)
Got him!

Matt (11:59.852)
I would 100 % be breaking the law, I can't not help them. I would be mad at them. I would be mad at them and say, why'd you bring me into this?

Shawn (12:01.855)
Why are you, and you're willing to do that. Matt, but hang on, hang on. But if the whole premise of your argument is I can't stand the thought of being in jail, why would you risk breaking the law to put yourself in jail just to keep someone else out of jail?

Marc (12:17.434)
Hmm

Matt (12:17.536)
I can understand what they're going through, right? Like they're like, they're in jail, they get out cause they're like, I can't do this anymore. And I say, let's try to find a new life. Let's try to help you start your life all over again.

Shawn (12:28.807)
But by doing so, you've increased your chances in doing the thing that you're so against, which is being in jail.

Matt (12:36.17)
I will, they will not take me alive, Sean. I will not go to jail. I will die. No, I'm a hundred percent serious. Like if that situation ever comes, I am not walking into a jail of my own volition. They will have, they could tase me or make me disabled or something so they could take me in. I seriously, I could not do it. I've.

Shawn (12:38.655)
Okay, now you're just full of crap.

Hush.

Marc (12:53.781)
Alright, I have a question for you on this. Do you have a set of scriptures nearby that you can turn to?

Matt (12:59.138)
I do.

Marc (13:00.86)
All right.

Matt (13:02.926)
What should I turn to, any scripture at all? Okay. Weren't some of Jesus' disciples criminals?

Marc (13:05.069)
Anything?

Shawn (13:08.021)
Anything.

Shawn (13:17.353)
Me-meaning? What does that mean?

Marc (13:17.509)
No?

Matt (13:20.214)
Like they broke the law or something like that. I don't know. It seems to me like...

Shawn (13:23.829)
That's your latter-day lens right there. That's your latter-day lens. Weren't there some apostles who broke the law? That's your latter-day lens. Wow.

Matt (13:27.286)
My Latter-day lens is...

My Latter-day lens is family first. Family first.

Marc (13:38.074)
Sean's getting points. No offense. you didn't even say anything, but you get the points.

Matt (13:40.798)
Alright. Alright.

Shawn (13:42.432)
Well, I mean... I get them? yeah. Thanks, thanks.

Matt (13:45.71)
No, Sean, Sean did the article of faith that made Mark so happy that there was an article of faith. I'm going to give Mark the points because he has a brother who's been in jail, I'm assuming based on the mugshot, and he would still turn him in. Like, yeah, that's pretty good. You get the points for that Mark. I couldn't do it. And I don't even like my brothers that much, but I still

Marc (13:52.143)
Yay.

Marc (14:01.976)
Yeah. 100%.

Marc (14:09.338)
Thank you.

Matt (14:15.67)
I wouldn't let them live in my house. They can't stay in my house for the weekend. But if they escape from jail, I'm giving up everything to save them.

Shawn (14:21.153)
This is one of those situations, Matt, where I feel like you got this theory going in your mind where you're debating this back and forth and you've decided something, but in reality, I don't think you'd do it.

Matt (14:31.83)
I could never, Sean, could never turn my family in. I could never. And so if you don't turn them in, you're going to go to jail, right? So if my, if my choice is turn them in or go to jail myself, I can't turn them in. So I have to find some other solution. have to. Yeah. Okay. All right. Here's our next topic. this is why you're saying there's a bit of a theme here, Sean. Okay. So president Trump is granting a lot of pardons to people. This is why you want to talk about.

Marc (14:44.362)
Pollution.

Shawn (14:47.669)
OK. All right.

Matt (15:00.588)
Malam, prohibit them and Malam and say, because okay.

Shawn (15:03.361)
Partially, partially, I'm trying to find a lens, a Latter-day lens that guides us in these.

Matt (15:07.754)
Mm-hmm. We know that Sean loves NBA Youngboy. So first question is how do you feel about him getting pardoned? One of his victims is not very pleased that he was pardoned and the chief of the Capitol Police is not very pleased that Trump pardoned all the January 6 rioters. So the question is do these victims have a good point about Trump's pardons?

Shawn (15:28.225)
Well, first we want to hear from Mark about the fact that Joe Biden has ruined our ability to even discuss Donald Trump's pardoning people. You want to go off on that mark?

Marc (15:37.762)
Yeah, it's such a very, I don't want to say sacred, but almost sacred sacrosanct power to forgive the sins of man against man as president. And for Joe Biden to just wipe the slate clean in a not Christ-like, you've repented, let's forgive you manner, but a Luciferian, hey, we're all good. Everything's great. You can do no wrong manner. It's soiled.

the office of president in a manner that can never be reconciled, I don't think.

Matt (16:11.01)
You don't think that maybe in Trump's first administration, he laid the foundation for some of those kinds of pardons? okay. Just, just want to put it out there that Biden's not the first person to do something like that.

Marc (16:16.513)
Nah.

Shawn (16:18.327)
Look look at YouTube bipartisan hacks just playing the game of

Matt (16:27.574)
Sean, you're the one when I asked about Trump's pardons, you brought Joe Biden into it. What does he have to do with Trump pardons?

Shawn (16:32.279)
I was, cause I knew Mark had to talk about it cause Mark's a Trump guy. So we're just getting that out of the way.

Matt (16:36.43)
Isn't Trump a big boy? Like even if Biden does bad things, Trump can't resist. He has to do bad things too, just because Biden did.

Shawn (16:43.903)
I'm saying Joe didn't Joe Biden cross the line in such a just all such a what'd call it?

Marc (16:50.585)
It's unsanctioning, uns-lubrious.

Shawn (16:52.107)
Yeah. That it's given Trump the ability to look like the good guy compared to what he did. And that's pathetic.

Matt (17:01.358)
You know, doesn't Trump, Trump pardoned all of these P all of these criminals in his first term that I was all for political reasons. Trump.

Shawn (17:08.172)
And won't the hacks online just be like, yeah, but Biden pardoned his son.

Matt (17:11.842)
no. no, we lost him. The internet no.

Marc (17:13.495)
He just got too excited.

In my defense, I wasn't going to say anything about Joe Biden. I was going to just respond to the question.

Shawn (17:22.561)
Ha

Matt (17:22.646)
Okay, respond to the question Mark. We don't have to make this partisan. Tell us the answer.

Marc (17:25.816)
I don't know who NBA Youngboy is or what he did.

Matt (17:30.606)
You what? Okay, I'll tell you. NBA young boy is a rapper and Sean loves him because Sean likes indie rap people. But he, he was arrested on weapons possession charges because in his younger years he was convicted of a felony. And so he was not allowed to have weapons and he had guns. And so they convicted him on weapons charges. But in addition to that,

He did kind of like rob a pharmacy to get drugs in Utah. So those are the two things he's pardoned of is getting prescription drugs and this federal guns charge.

Marc (18:12.076)
Well, I don't agree with that then.

Matt (18:14.97)
you don't think he should be pardoned.

Marc (18:17.204)
Nah, I mean especially if it was a fair conviction and it's not like there was new evidence then yeah, you rob a pharmacy you oughta sit out for a little while.

Matt (18:20.759)
Yeah.

Matt (18:27.734)
Yeah, okay. I agree with the victims in this case. So this is where I'm kind of weird, Mark, because if my friends escape from jail, I'm going to help them get away. But I don't think we should pardon people who've been convicted of crimes. Unless-

Marc (18:39.501)
What if NBA Youngboy showed up in your house?

Matt (18:42.446)
I would turn him in. He's not my family. He's not my he's not my family. Of course. I'll turn NBA young boy in

Marc (18:45.09)
I see.

Marc (18:51.576)
I hope Shawn heard that.

Shawn (18:52.833)
You

Matt (18:54.712)
Sean, would you turn NBA Youngboy in if he showed up to your house?

Shawn (18:58.633)
Of course I would.

Matt (19:01.154)
So you're okay with the pardon or you don't want the pardon?

Shawn (19:03.745)
I don't know where to stand on the pardon thing, man. I don't understand the intent in the beginning. I don't, I mean, you look at the history of all the pardons that took place, and there are some good ones, right? 13,000 Confederate soldiers. That's probably.

Matt (19:18.967)
Confederate soldiers? Why would he pardon them? They're all dead.

Shawn (19:22.165)
Well, he pardoned them when they weren't dead, man.

Matt (19:25.876)
you're talking other presidents.

Marc (19:27.06)
It was Joe Biden.

Shawn (19:28.718)
sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm saying the history of pardons, right? Was it Lincoln or whoever was after Lincoln? Like there's some...

Matt (19:32.44)
got it got it got it yeah well and Jimmy Jimmy Carter pardoning all the draft dodgers

Shawn (19:39.945)
Yeah, exactly. Bill Clinton partnering his brother Roger.

Matt (19:44.173)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (19:45.211)
You know, there's a theme about these familial pardons with Joe Biden and Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson. Not Republican. What would you call it? Al, anyway.

Shawn (19:57.887)
god.

Matt (19:58.318)
Do you know the theme I see in Trump's pardons? Trump is pardoning everybody who's been convicted of things he's been convicted of.

Shawn (20:06.529)
I mean, let's go there, right? Okay, Mark, if you're gonna just call out, the Democrats are so bad because they pardoned, let's now lump Trump into that because he's doing the exact same things we just accused, you just accused the Democrats of doing, right? Yeah.

Matt (20:19.18)
He is. Yeah.

Marc (20:20.742)
As he pardoned his family forever with backwards without any specific charges just I they forgiven for any crime I Don't know about that

Matt (20:28.086)
We know that he's going to. That's only a matter of time.

Shawn (20:31.583)
I'm going to give you the points, Mark, because you initially said that there was an intention, like a charitable intention with the pardon system, the power that was given to presidents, and it's become so ill-used that I'm going to go on there. I just don't think it's a dumb thing. Matt, can you give an example of a really just, good pardon that you can even think of?

Marc (20:35.51)
Yay!

Matt (20:56.47)
Yeah, I can think of lots of them. Barack Obama, again, there's a process that most presidents go through, there's this like pardon. No, there's a pardon office. And Barack, there were these three strikes, you're out federal laws. And so there were people who were arrested for the third time on let's say marijuana possession, and they didn't do any violent crime. And they didn't do anything to like really harm anybody, but it was drug possession, and they had a life sentence. And so

Shawn (20:57.899)
Can you?

Shawn (21:02.689)
You can say Chelsea Manning.

Shawn (21:22.795)
Good one.

Matt (21:23.81)
President Obama had a process that you could go through and you could say, I shouldn't be in prison for the rest of my life for marijuana possession, especially since states are legalizing marijuana possession now. So he pardoned like thousands of people.

Marc (21:25.464)
Shawn (21:32.737)
Matt, answered it perfectly. You answered it perfectly. All right, I take my points from Mark back to Matt. That was a good answer. Sorry, Mark. Sorry, Mark.

Matt (21:40.75)
I think there's a legitimate use of the pardon power

Shawn (21:45.419)
So why doesn't anyone do it? Very few, very rare. Like that Obama example is a great perfect example of it. And so.

Matt (21:51.704)
Well, Barack Obama was a legal scholar. He taught constitutional law at Chicago Law School before he was president. So I mean, those were facts.

Marc (21:57.271)
Bit of a stretch. Bit of a stretch. I have a bachelor's in political science, so I'm a scientist.

Shawn (22:01.249)
you

Matt (22:06.592)
You are? I agree with that statement, but I also agree that if you teach

Shawn (22:08.117)
Hahaha

Marc (22:09.439)
I don't understand that what was that the program you had us use R or whatever. I don't understand it. No, I barely made it.

Matt (22:13.257)
Yeah

Shawn (22:14.931)
Matt, what percentage of pardons would you say are just good, righteous, fair pardons and what percentage are not, would you say? Just guess. Yeah, in the last 20 years, 30 years. Just guess, just a guess. I know you don't have these facts in front of you.

Matt (22:25.398)
It's going to depend on the president.

Matt (22:30.125)
Yeah, I really, I mean, you could maybe name a handful of Obama pardons that maybe were like controversial. Chelsea Manning would be one of them. But I do think even in that case, the pardon of Chelsea Manning was about how she was going to be treated in military prisons and he didn't like the transgender thing in a military prison. might not, her sentence was like maybe more than what it would be intended because of the conditions there or whatever. I don't know.

I think George W. Bush, a lot of his pardons were justified. Even when he granted clemency to Scooter Libya, he didn't pardon him. He had the conviction stand. So I don't know. Let's say if I had do a percent, generally it's about 10%. If I go starting Trump, then Biden, then Trump again, I'm going to say like 90 % of them are no good. Like Biden really, really disappointed me. Well, I wouldn't say mostly Biden. I would say that Biden

Shawn (23:22.165)
Wow.

Marc (23:23.806)
Also because of the lighting.

Marc (23:28.853)
because every one of Trump's is perfectly defendable.

Matt (23:30.637)
Hmm.

Shawn (23:31.753)
you

Matt (23:33.378)
You just told me that you weren't happy about NBA Youngboy.

Marc (23:33.906)
You

Shawn (23:39.007)
hahahaha

Marc (23:39.581)
except for all the others.

Matt (23:43.554)
What about the one where,

Shawn (23:44.065)
I like the male elements.

I like the Malam and say Malam prohibitive argument here as well. can the Obama, those are the marijuana three strikes laws that were, those were definitely Malam prohibitive and to pardon them, I think was a great thing. So I'd go with that standard.

Matt (24:01.704)
I knew it. I knew we were going to come back to that. I come back to the standard that the reason you give a president pardon power is that it's possible that the justice system can fail and the president should use the pardon power to correct injustices in the justice system and only for those reasons.

Shawn (24:20.833)
So then Matt, would you say that the power as it exists, which you said yourself is like 90, 10 effective, or 90 ineffective, 10 effective, would you say that it's still a useful tool, even though it gets abused 90 % of the time? Would you keep it in place? Because of that 10 % good that it does?

Matt (24:37.801)
I think what I would do is I would allow presidents to reverse pardons of the previous administration. then that makes it so that there's a little bit a check on that power.

Shawn (24:47.049)
Whoa.

Shawn (24:54.079)
Wow.

Marc (24:55.404)
Again, his brother just murdered 70 people, he's drenched in blood. I'll get you to Mexico, but hey, this guy, did some... I'll put you back in jail, that's fine.

Shawn (25:00.993)
you

Matt (25:04.04)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Shawn (25:05.025)
you back in jail.

Matt (25:08.994)
Hey, I'm not logically consistent. Okay, last topic. I know all of you guys are huge BYU football fans, which is why we can talk about this because I know Mark couldn't care less about BYU football. Okay, so BYU's quarterback had a civil suit filed against him claiming he sexually assaulted a young woman, Gordon Monson, who's a member of our church and a columnist at the Salt Lake Tribune. He points out,

Marc (25:09.366)
I don't even think about it.

Shawn (25:11.04)
Yeah.

Shawn (25:17.729)
you

Matt (25:39.032)
that this creates a dilemma for BYU. He says, the quarterback isn't required to be a card carrying member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, BYU's owner. He can be Jewish as Retzloff is. He can be Catholic, he can be Presbyterian or Protestant or Baptist or Buddhist or none of the above. What he cannot be, at least of all not out in the open, is a breaker of the law or a serious breaker of the honor code, which it appears the quarterback is right now. So my question is,

Should BYU put its football season in jeopardy by expelling their quarterback for violations of the honor code?

Shawn (26:15.499)
So here's my thoughts, Matt. Tell me what you think. You can't, can you, okay, so he's been accused in, in civilly, right? This is not criminal. Yeah. So can BYU on the grounds of you've been accused by someone, if, if the kid comes and says to BYU, look, I, this is, I did not do this. I did not break the law and I did not break the honor code. If he claims that, then I don't think BYU has any ground to be able to say, well,

Matt (26:24.814)
Sure. Yeah.

Matt (26:37.154)
Is it?

Shawn (26:43.521)
someone claims that you did. so we're going to punish you for that.

Matt (26:47.214)
Shawn, do know how many people get kicked out of BYU because somebody claims that they had sexual relations with them?

Shawn (26:54.784)
I have no idea.

Matt (26:56.64)
I don't either those numbers aren't published. But but my suspicion is that there are a number that you do not have to prove that that two people had the they broke the honor code they broke the law of chastity. You don't have to prove that it actually happened. One person saying that it happened and telling a story that seems plausible enough is enough to kick them out of the university.

Marc (26:57.707)
Ha!

Shawn (26:58.913)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Shawn (27:23.817)
I mean, there's the example of the basketball player who was the basketball player a couple of years ago who I BYU.

Marc (27:23.997)
You

Matt (27:28.556)
Yeah, when Jim referred that was on the team, right?

Shawn (27:31.115)
Davies, right, Davies. So Davies, the girl got pregnant, right? So there was irrefutable proof that he broke the honor code and therefore he was punished. That seems just to me, right? There's no way he could have denied it because the baby was, they had a baby.

Matt (27:44.534)
Okay, well, so in in a civil lawsuit, at some point, you're going to do testimony under oath. And they're going to ask him, did you guys have sexual relations? I guess if I guess he could say under oath, that they didn't have sexual relations, and then it would be like, okay, well, I mean, what are going to do?

Shawn (28:00.181)
That's the thing. look, we, BYU doesn't have the luxury, like the trial is going to happen like a year and a half from now. Right? So BYU doesn't have the luxury of standing behind the trial and just being able to say, well, there's a conviction or there was a acquittal. So, you know, we're going to base our judgment on that. That's unlucky for BYU. BYU has to now make the decision. think whatever decision they make, they turn out as a bad guy. Right? There's no, there's no win in this situation. Yeah. If they, cause if they, cause if they expel him and if he denies that he did it,

Matt (28:21.826)
BYU? No way! Yes, of course there is!

Shawn (28:29.993)
and they expel him, then there's all kinds of like, well, he's not a member of the church. They're picking on members, non-members of the church and there's no evidence it wasn't a fair process. If they don't expel him, then well, BYU doesn't support women who claim sexual assault. Like that's horrible. So I think there's no way BYU wins in this situation.

Matt (28:50.434)
What do you say, Mark?

Marc (28:52.947)
I did not have sexual relations with that woman, but I am wearing her underwear.

Matt (28:55.118)
Ha

Shawn (28:56.191)
Well...

Hehehehehe

Marc (29:03.379)
Sorry, I'm not helpful.

Matt (29:07.381)
I know you have strong feelings about this work.

Marc (29:10.611)
I believe that brother Sean has made a very sincere and solid point that it is a rock and hard place for BYU because forget about the football season, forget about the sports, who cares? It's going to be the Utes anyway. It's it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Matt (29:28.942)
I think the only justification for all the money they put into the sports programs is that it furthers the mission of the church. Everything at BYU is does it further the mission of the church?

Shawn (29:41.793)
Okay.

Marc (29:42.084)
And for me, my vote would be get rid of the sports entirely. Make it like BYU-Idaho where it's for fun, it's for exercise, but stop professionalizing, or whatever the word is. I don't know, sports? I'm stuck in the 18th century.

Shawn (29:56.865)
Yeah

Matt (29:57.932)
But but it is true that like, can be a good missionary tool. And if BYU says we're willing to give up our, our aspirations for a national football title, because our honor code means more to us than winning football games, that actually can be a really good missionary tool that can be, that can further the mission of the church. But if you don't, if you back down and you say, well, this season means too much, then, then there's no way. I just can't see the church even doing that. I can't see them.

Shawn (30:02.347)
Yeah.

Matt (30:27.544)
condoning that.

Shawn (30:28.565)
But again, again, Matt, this is back to the lame is situation, right? Justice and mercy. don't actually, I don't think that applies because there's, can't, how can BYU judge the situation based on it's my word versus your word, right? That's, I wish they had the luxury of the trial happening tomorrow, right? Cause then there'd be evidence presented. There would be a judgment passed and then BYU can say, well, we're gonna base it on what a civil court decided on. You're right, he broke the honor code or he didn't.

Matt (30:54.318)
BYU does not have to follow any kind of like legal procedural rules or anything like that. There's gonna be tracking stuff on his phone. Like it's not hard to establish where you were and what you were doing at a certain time.

Shawn (31:02.56)
Yeah, but that's...

Shawn (31:10.017)
You don't think it's hard to establish when you have one person saying there was violation. He violated me and he says, no, I didn't. Like it'd be a different story if he had, Matt, he admits to, yeah, we had consensual relations, that's a violation of the honor code. Then it becomes easy for BYU. But if.

Matt (31:15.776)
Intercourse. Yeah. Typically in those situations.

Matt (31:26.604)
Yeah.

He's gonna admit to that because the cost of not admitting to that becomes greater. If it had happened.

Shawn (31:34.753)
I mean, if that's the case, it's an easy call for BYU. should be. I like your line of thinking. If he admits to breaking the honor code, yeah, they should show that honor above football for sure. Yeah.

Matt (31:48.322)
and kick him out.

Shawn (31:49.589)
Yeah, I can agree with that.

Marc (31:50.78)
Death before honor.

Matt (31:52.526)
Okay, I'm gonna give Sean the point on that. That was pretty good, Sean.

Shawn (31:57.601)
You get the points, Matt. I'm giving you the points because you are a

Matt (32:02.657)
Okay.

Marc (32:02.859)
I'm gonna get bad points too, because I never do.

Shawn (32:05.206)
Yeah.

Matt (32:05.39)
Okay, all right, I like this Mark. Okay, we're going to move to the big question. I've been reading my scriptures lately and when I read my scriptures it makes me think about big questions. Okay, Doctrine and Covenants section 63 verses 61 and 62 reads,

Shawn (32:12.673)
Yeah

Shawn (32:16.043)
Nice.

Matt (32:34.84)
having not authority. So based on the context of those verses, I think that this means that people who use the Lord's name without his authority or authorization are committing a grievous sin. So the big question is, does this verse apply to all situations in life? Like when a politician speaks about God to further their own agenda, are they sinning?

Marc (32:45.906)
Question.

Shawn (32:57.131)
Matt, do you have like a couple of examples in mind? Is that what sparked this or no, you just generally.

Matt (33:02.37)
politicians do this all the time. I mean, the easiest example is Gerald Ford when he pardons Richard Nixon. He says one of the reasons that he's going to pardon Richard Nixon is because he's prayed about it and he feels like this is what God wants him to do for the good of the country. Right? So he's like invoking God's name in this decision to pardon Richard Nixon. But there's hundreds and hundreds of these examples.

Shawn (33:26.251)
Do you feel like there's a big difference though about, there's a difference between claiming authority from God versus I have a faith in God, I believe in holy scripture that teaches me my standards, I'm gonna make decisions and do things based on that. There's a big difference between that, right?

Matt (33:43.342)
But he's specifically saying that God told him to pardon Nixon. Or even more recent example, there's a politician, I can't remember his name, that decided to sell copies of the Bible with their name on it and it had like the Constitution and Declaration of Independence in it. But there's like hundreds of examples of politicians using God's name to further their own agenda of some kind.

Shawn (33:55.713)
You don't remember that guy's name?

Shawn (34:08.329)
I don't remember who that was. Ronald Crump? Wasn't that who that was?

Matt (34:12.75)
Mark is holding up his copy of the Trump Bible. That's crazy. I didn't know you bought one of those,

Marc (34:15.162)
I thought it was Barry Satara.

Marc (34:23.202)
I want point out to the listeners that that is not accurate. I... much stupider things to spend my money on.

Shawn (34:31.275)
So, Matt, my answer would be there's a, so like for example, the Protestant religions believe that the Bible gives priesthood authority. No, yeah, they believe that the Bible gives priesthood authority to anyone who is a believer. So in the Calvinist,

Matt (34:49.378)
But we don't believe that, Sean. We don't. We believe that you have to have a... Yeah, so we believe all those people are sinning when they're doing things in God's name and they don't have the authority to do it.

Shawn (34:53.195)
That's right. That's right.

Matt (35:09.74)
Maybe? Maybe?

Cough cough

Marc (35:18.881)
Am I the one with the bad reception right now?

Shawn (35:21.341)
Matt is skipping out. We didn't hear any of that,

Matt (35:23.019)
Is it me?

Marc (35:24.046)
Yeah, that was wild.

Matt (35:26.59)
Okay, I'm back. Am I back?

Shawn (35:28.319)
That one was.

Shawn (35:32.789)
Yeah, you're back. Omar, just if you could fix that part.

Matt (35:33.376)
Okay, hold on. I'm back.

Marc (35:38.255)
Thanks Omar.

Matt (35:43.662)
Refresh, refresh.

Shawn (35:43.797)
Mark, you still there?

Marc (35:46.062)
I'm here.

Shawn (35:46.888)
Matt disappeared. Okay, we'll wait for him to pop back on. Omar, sorry, Matt popped off. So when Matt comes back on, we'll the recording again.

Yeah, we'll see if he pops back on. Omar, think the times that I popped off, it's fine. You can just work through those. But all right, Matt's coming back.

Marc (36:07.895)
Bye!

Matt (36:07.911)
Yeah, we'll be okay. Okay, so what did I last say?

Shawn (36:08.809)
Okay, okay pick it up again Matt. We heard nothing of what you started to say.

Marc (36:13.073)
Matt (36:14.719)
Okay. Well, so I think I was interrupting Sean and I was saying, Sean, that we don't believe that those people have authority when they talk in the name of the Lord. We believe that they're sinning when those Protestants do that.

Shawn (36:27.637)
mine goes out.

Marc (36:28.077)
I think we should stone the pope.

Matt (36:29.725)
Ha ha ha

Man, is it Sean that I lost? okay. Yeah, so Sean, we believe that those people are sinning when they say we can do these things in God's name. Like that's what this verse is telling us. If you don't have the authority of God and you speak as if you do, we think that that's a sin, whether you're Protestant or a politician.

Shawn (36:33.985)
Yeah, I lost. I'm back. Okay. Okay. Say that all again, because that's good. And I have a response.

Shawn (36:48.769)
But that's kind of my point is the Protestants are actually claiming that by virtue of them being chosen in a Calvinist way, by showing faith that that equates to I have authority from God, I have priesthood authority to act in God's name. Politician who just says, look, I believe in God and I think God would want us to do this. I think that's very different. They're not claiming authority.

They're not claiming that I have priesthood power. They're just saying, I believe in God and I think this is the right thing to do. I think that's perfectly okay. The other side, the Protestant side, not okay.

Matt (37:22.271)
Okay, what if they don't actually pray about it? They don't actually, they just decide, they're just saying it because they want people to follow them and they know that if they appeal to God, the people will say, okay, yeah, well, that's fine.

Shawn (37:32.129)
The good news is there's a one person that's gonna judge all of us and that's the Savior and he knows the intent of that person's heart, right? I don't think you can. I don't think you can. I don't think that we're allowed to do that.

Matt (37:42.463)
I do too. I can tell. I can judge them by the way, Sean. I'm okay with that.

Marc (37:45.054)
Ha

Marc (37:52.399)
It's to judge a righteous judgment.

Matt (37:56.893)
That's right. is righteous judgment. It is not hard to tell if a person is sincere in their claim of authority from God.

Shawn (38:04.479)
All right, let me challenge this, okay? Let's pick a trigger for you. Donald Trump, before the assassination attempt, was one man. Then the assassination attempt happened and he seemed to be humbled a little bit. There are some changes. Do you think maybe his referencing God after the assassination attempt, maybe he's a little more sincere than the other side of that attempt?

Matt (38:26.015)
I think that when Trump said that God saved him, he 50 % believed it.

Shawn (38:33.085)
Why would you judge that?

Matt (38:35.487)
I don't think he 100 % believed it, but maybe maybe a little more than 50%. So that

Marc (38:40.174)
I do want to say what Sean just asked is exactly what I was going to bring up was like I think Trump and if we're going to do some particular I think something has been happening with him lately

Matt (38:51.037)
like cognitive problems or something different.

Shawn (38:53.077)
Hahaha!

Marc (38:54.35)
No, the post-assassination attempt. think there really has been a slow, genuine growth to some kind of religion. But I'd agree with you, from round one and the selling the Bible. I don't like that.

Shawn (39:09.889)
Yeah, yeah, good Mark. Look at Mark calling out Trump for doing some immoral things. I like it.

Matt (39:10.004)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (39:14.847)
I'm calling out thousands of politicians, Sean. I'm calling out lots of them. It's not about tr-

Shawn (39:18.025)
Okay. Okay, good.

Marc (39:19.438)
But you leave Gerald Ford alone, he's a nice boy.

Matt (39:22.047)
Gerald Ford, I believe Gerald Ford was sincere in what he said, but I do think it was wrong for him to say God wants me to pardon Nixon.

Shawn (39:22.933)
Hehehehehe

Marc (39:34.52)
But what if Mitt Romney had become president? First off, what a tragedy. But if that had happened?

Shawn (39:39.009)
Why do you mean a tragedy? That would have been the best thing to happen in our lifetime. Mark!

Marc (39:42.446)
Oh! Calm down everybody. Let's say it like that. And he says, I have been to the temple and I feel I need to veto this bill. Would you still go, oh, or would you go, ah, temple, I've been there.

Matt (39:44.607)
You

Matt (39:52.732)
Okay.

Matt (39:57.727)
I would believe Mitt Romney if he said that I would believe him.

Shawn (40:00.981)
Matt is loyal to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Matt (40:03.667)
But it's not just that.

Marc (40:05.389)
And you're right sounds like you were loyal to Mitt Romney, but anyway, go ahead

Shawn (40:08.873)
I'm definitely all the way around me.

Matt (40:10.399)
It's not just that he's a member of the church. It's that he's sincerely a religious person. But there are members of Congress, there are members of the Senate that when they talk about God, I'm like, I'm not sure that like, you really are that into church, like

Shawn (40:22.817)
Matt, but I believe many Protestants are sincerely doing their best in their faith and do believe that just by virtue of having faith, they think they have authority from God. And I think the judgment that's gonna happen, that's gonna weigh there, right? Like Christ will consider that type of thing, I'm guessing. I don't think it's our place to judge though, necessarily.

Matt (40:43.583)
Okay, then I'm gonna, so then there's this Palestinian who's a member of Congress, right? And she regularly condemns what's happening in Israel on the basis of her faith. So then we should, 100%, yeah, 100 % that's on the basis of her faith.

Shawn (40:52.991)
Right. Is she does she on the basis of her faith? I've not heard her. You're talking about Talib. I've never heard her. I'd like I'll go back and study that.

Matt (41:04.243)
She 100 % feels like the Jewish people are persecuting people of her faith in the Palestinian territories.

Shawn (41:11.357)
that's not based on faith, that's just discrimination and racism and bigotry, right?

Matt (41:16.785)
I mean, I guess I don't know, like, she seems to me to be a very faithful Muslim, that she's like sincere in her beliefs and that a lot of what she says is motivated by her beliefs.

Shawn (41:27.947)
But that's a different topic, right? She's not saying God has commanded me to get up here and condemn the Israel state and I have authority from God to do that. I think that's the nature of your question is if someone, when it says, let all men beware how they take my name in their lips, behold, verily I say that there are many who are under this condemnation who use the name of the Lord and use it in vain having not authority. That point there, having not authority is the key.

Matt (41:49.375)
But if she were to do that, then would you receive it better? Because you're like, okay, she's just living her faith when she's condemning the state of Israel.

Shawn (42:00.531)
If she said, have authority from God and we need to go bomb Israel, then that's obviously in vain and that's terrible. If she simply says, look, I'm a Muslim and I don't like that my brothers and sisters are struggling and getting bombed right now, I don't think that's the same. That's different.

Matt (42:19.911)
Right, so if she, that's what I'm trying to understand, Sean. So if she invokes God in what she says, she's not being righteous. But if a Protestant invokes God, well, that's just the way that they believe in, so it's okay.

Shawn (42:32.157)
No, I think she's fine to invoke her beliefs, but not to claim authority from God.

Matt (42:37.363)
But you're saying Protestants get to claim authority from God.

Shawn (42:40.991)
I'm saying it's wrong that they claim authority from God. It's okay for them to say, have faith in God and I believe that this is the right thing to do. But if I have authority from God, I have his priesthood, therefore let's do this in law. That's wrong.

Matt (42:42.405)
Matt (42:54.821)
Okay, okay. So then we agree on that. Do you agree with us, Mark?

Shawn (42:57.771)
We do.

Marc (42:59.499)
I think so. Yeah, I, again, similar vibe. Gerald Ford says, I prayed about this and I feel it's a good thing to do. Okay. I'm fine with that. But, Gerald Ford says, I prayed and God told me that on his behalf, we need to forgive Richard Nixon. Woop. Slow down, gringo.

Shawn (43:07.199)
I'm okay with that.

Matt (43:14.175)
Shawn (43:16.577)
Yeah, I think that's a difference, Matt, because you quoted the whole scripture and the big qualifier there is at the end saying having not authority. If that wasn't in there, then it'd be a different discussion. But I think that verse is talking about a claim to priesthood, not just a claim to faith.

Matt (43:29.724)
Okay.

Marc (43:30.465)
And that's why I joked and it probably got cut, but I'll say it again, we should stone the post.

Shawn (43:37.555)
my gosh, jeez.

Matt (43:40.147)
We would hate for that to have gotten cut from this episode.

Shawn (43:43.399)
No, no, we're not saying, we're not inciting any violence to anybody anywhere.

Marc (43:47.602)
all and it was for legal purposes and moral it was just

Matt (43:52.063)
I was so ready to let Mark have the last word with that. That was a pretty classic Mark statement, a way to end the show. Hey, thanks you guys for this episode. This has been a lot of fun. I've learned a lot from you guys and I really appreciate the way that you agree with me. No, you don't agree with me.

Shawn (43:53.462)
satire?

Marc (43:59.306)
Allah Hu Akbar

Shawn (44:14.369)
I

Marc (44:16.692)
And thank you for letting me put my autism on full spread tonight.

Matt (44:19.423)
Listener more than anything else. Go ahead, Sean.

Shawn (44:23.615)
I can't wait to get with you next and have a long discussion with you and your wife about the first topic, about letting your criminal family members, protecting them.

Matt (44:28.327)
Hahaha

Matt (44:33.265)
Sean, if NBA Youngboy comes to your house, are you turning him in?

Shawn (44:39.073)
Yeah, I would say, look, dude, I'm so sorry, man. I'm not gonna aid and abet you. not putting my life and family at risk because you broke the law.

Matt (44:41.588)
huh, huh, huh.

Come on. After you like do a jam session with them or something or after you fanboy out.

Shawn (44:51.123)
Sure, that, would you judge that? That's okay, right?

Matt (44:57.343)
As soon as you do that, Sean, you're putting yourself, you're aiding and abetting him because you had fun with him before you turned them in.

Shawn (45:01.441)
I'll take that risk.

Marc (45:06.666)
You what you do, you go Old Testament, you have Enby young boy hide under a rug and then you drive a tent stake through his head.

Shawn (45:12.833)
Gosh.

Matt (45:12.863)
The guy that did that in the Bible is named Barak.

Marc (45:18.438)
I thought the ladies had did that.

Matt (45:20.688)
was it a lady that maybe she put it in Barack's head? Okay. Yeah, that's right. What I'm going to end on is more than anything else listener, I hope you realize that you and your friends can talk about contentious topics and still love each other and get along because that's what this podcast is all about. We might not agree, but we love each other and the church is way more important than politics. That's what I hope everybody remembers.

Marc (45:22.174)
Yeah.

It still does, man, it doesn't matter.

Shawn (45:27.359)
And that's what you're going to end on right there, huh, Matt?

Shawn (45:46.313)
Amen.

Marc (45:48.488)
Hear hear.

Matt (45:49.407)
Okay, talk to you again next week.