Matt (00:01.176)
Hey everybody and welcome to the Latter Day Lens. I'm your host Matt. With me as always is Sean and I am so excited to have back Melanie. Melanie has some exciting big news that she doesn't want people to know because she likes to stay private but she doesn't know like this is private. Melanie, what's your super, what's your super happy big news?

Melanie (00:20.166)
Yeah, yeah.

I got engaged on Sunday!

Shawn (00:27.043)
my gosh, amazing.

Matt (00:29.036)
Yeah, she's gonna get... Yeah.

Melanie (00:30.44)
Sean's been waiting for this day.

Shawn (00:33.699)
I mean, Melanie, nevermind the fact that you guys have really been engaged for like a month and a half, right?

Matt (00:37.614)
When did you buy your wedding dress, Melody? When did you purchase that wedding dress?

Melanie (00:38.4)
If that's what helps you sleep at night.

Shawn (00:41.695)
haha!

Melanie (00:45.152)
That is unimportant. Irrelevant. It may have been in January.

Matt (00:49.186)
That's right. It doesn't even matter.

Shawn (00:52.267)
Melanie, don't want to distract from this beautiful, beautiful announcement that we're so excited for you, but what is with your generation? Like last night, even with my son and his friends, we were talking about how this kid was dating, like he's gone out with this girl 10 times, they've kissed, they're like, and then he's like, but I told her yesterday that I don't think I'm ready to date yet. I'm like, what are you talking about, dude? You're dating. What is wrong with you people? Engagement isn't like this official moment where someone says, here's a ring.

Here's a, no, you guys decided to get married months ago. You got a dress a month ago. You've been engaged.

Melanie (01:31.104)
I feel like these are two different situations. The whole like, I'm not ready to be dating yet, it's just people who are scared of commitment, you know? There are a lot of those, a lot of those in Provo. But I feel like...

Shawn (01:31.645)
silent. Okay.

Shawn (01:41.067)
But there's been commitment for weeks for this guy. They've committed. They're exclusively dating, going on dates. They're only dating each other. They've made out. That's dating.

Melanie (01:46.622)
Is he only dating the one girl?

Okay.

Matt (01:55.304)
That is dating. I've only ever made out with my wife.

Melanie (01:57.854)
I think we're just like-

Sure, sure.

I think there's just like a big emphasis on labels in our generation, right? We care a lot about making sure that something is called the proper way at the proper time, which can be good for a lot of reasons. Like I, I'm temple worker today and one person was coming through doing initiatories and one of the workers just kept saying her name so wrong. And I was like, bruh, it's not that hard. It's not that deep.

Shawn (02:10.124)
Yes.

Melanie (02:30.814)
Anyways, so just like on my mind right now is making sure that people are called what they want to be called, you know, and respected and given the labels that they're comfortable with. And so I think there's some merit to our generation saying, yeah, I don't want to say I'm dating someone if they're not comfortable saying that we're dating yet. But also I agree, like a lot of emphasis is put on, do you have the ring? Has he actually proposed when like functionally a lot of people are engaged before they're actually engaged? And maybe we could like do that.

Shawn (02:35.671)
Labeled, labeled,

Shawn (02:40.845)
Gotcha.

Matt (02:58.67)
So Melanie, if I go to the temple and the temple name is like a Chinese name that I can't pronounce very well, should I just hand it back and say, try again, I can't do this one?

Melanie (03:09.54)
If the person says the name you try and match what they're saying, you know? And I think it got to me because this person had a slightly more Hispanic name and it was written with like the J that you say as an H and the other temple worker was saying it as an X. And I'm like, you're not even saying it the bad I'm sounding it out way.

Matt (03:14.669)
B R U

Matt (03:19.394)
Mmm.

Matt (03:27.373)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (03:32.462)
I like

Shawn (03:33.856)
I just enjoy the vision, the thought that you're in the temple serving and calling people brah. Like brah, do better dude. Brah, do the name better.

Matt (03:40.27)
Hey bro. Bruh. It's Juan, not Ksuan.

Alright, let's open the mailbag. So Melanie has taken some political philosophy classes. I have never taken a political philosophy class. Sean, don't think

Shawn (03:57.571)
A political scientist has never taken a political philosophy class?

Matt (04:00.684)
I feel like it's irrelevant, but our listeners, our listeners are into political philosophy. we talked last week about whether healthcare was a right. And so a listener wrote in and said, in the second treatise of government, chapter two, section six, Locke lists life, health, liberty, or possessions as things that no one ought to harm under the law of nature. He writes that reason teaches humanity that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another.

in his life, health, liberty, or possessions. You can see from this context where Locke explains that people may not take away or impair the life or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another. Locke's not using health in a narrow medical sense like we do today. Instead, it refers broadly to a person's physical well-being and bodily integrity, anything necessary for the preservation of life, or positive freedom.

It means bodily integrity as a requirement for survival and moral equality. Without health, liberty cannot be exercised, property cannot be acquired, life itself is threatened, so it functions as a structural support for the entire natural rights system. So there, guys.

Shawn (05:19.875)
I thought you think political philosophy was dumb. I thought you just said that.

Melanie (05:20.021)
you

Matt (05:23.438)
Melanie, does this make sense to you? So based on this is healthcare a right? A natural right?

Melanie (05:31.712)
Based off of Locke's argument, yes.

Matt (05:35.642)
you don't like John Locke?

Melanie (05:37.478)
Yeah, I don't know. Why can't I have some history?

Matt (05:39.182)
I see. Well, I've known the name lock. I know that like...

Shawn (05:40.927)
did you wait? Does the history involve dating or engaged? Because because you don't really have history if you dated or were engaged.

Matt (05:50.86)
Hahaha

Matt (05:54.86)
Were you and John Locke in a, were you in a situationship with John Locke? So help, help listeners understand Melanie, maybe what your beef with John Locke is and why. So are you saying like, it's like in my world, John Locke is the Bible. Like people quote Locke as if he's like God.

Melanie (05:54.914)
It was a high school relationship.

Shawn (05:57.421)
So.

Hahaha

Melanie (06:11.796)
Right. Right, so that's why I have beef with him. Because when I was in high school doing debate and in government or whatever, know, everybody would bring up John Locke all the time because like he's one of the I forgot the word, ideological founders. One of the philosophers that the American pattern of government was like patterned after. He's very foundational, very important, like arguably a founding father if he'd been alive at the time and involved in the revolution.

Matt (06:27.49)
Philosophers? Yeah.

Melanie (06:40.636)
and it annoyed me and-

Shawn (06:40.643)
Hmm.

Matt (06:41.016)
He's someone that like James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, all the founders of the nation read John Locke and loved what he thought. Yeah.

Melanie (06:47.36)
read his stuff, agreed with his stuff. Yeah. And so it bugged me in high school because I was like, why do we care so much what philosopher the founders espoused when our questions are what is today's society like and how should we address it now? I think the philosophy of 1800s is not necessarily the philosophy we should be swearing by today. And so that's my beef with John Locke.

Matt (07:04.014)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (07:10.452)
I see. But, but if we say from the latter day lens, like if we say, maybe he was inspired because we say the founders were inspired and so maybe the people they were reading were inspired. So maybe there's a, an inspired principle there that health is an important natural right.

Melanie (07:33.684)
I think Sean should chime in here.

Matt (07:33.974)
No, you're not gonna take, not gonna.

Shawn (07:36.419)
Yeah, it's a tough one because I think in the second part of the listener's comments, he kind of clarifies that Locke is not using health in a narrow medical sense like modern health, public health. How does that differentiate in your mind? That little qualifier there. I thought he was saying it's not a health. Health care is not a right because in the modern medical sense, health care means one thing.

Melanie (07:37.344)
you

Matt (07:50.03)
Yeah.

Shawn (08:06.189)
but it didn't mean that when Locke was talking about it.

Matt (08:10.422)
Yeah. Yeah. The listener is not super clear on what their perspective is on that. I think they just wanted to say to us, like when we say life, liberty, pursuit of happiness or inalienable rights, Thomas Jefferson is taking that from John Locke and John Locke would have said health was part of that life liberty. And he said property, right? So I think it's similar to the argument I made where I said, if you don't have health, you don't have life like

Like it's a foundation. So maybe healthcare isn't a right, but I can't, I, for me, I can't differentiate health from healthcare. Like if, if the technology exists to heal me from whatever I'm sick with and the government says, sorry, you don't get that for whatever reason, then they're trampling on my natural rights. I would argue, even though healthcare isn't the same thing as health when Locke was talking.

Melanie (09:08.992)
You

Shawn (09:10.307)
Okay, alright.

Matt (09:10.894)
It's hard to argue like, yeah, I don't know. had a long argument about it last week, but thanks to the listener for bringing us to, yeah, we like that.

Shawn (09:19.095)
Yeah, that was good. And that makes me think obviously, I quoting the, the, people that inspired the founding fathers to be, that makes me think like, what a great thing. I got to think about it. I mean, I still, I mean, yeah. Okay. We'll, we'll, we'll revisit that as I think about Locke. I'll go study Locke.

Matt (09:38.424)
We'll give the points to the listener in this particular situation because I gave Melanie a chance to show us her brilliant political philosophy and all she did is poo poo on what our listener had to say about John Locke. Sorry, Melanie, no points. Well, that wasn't my first question. My first question was, what do you think? And you're like, Locke and I are in a situationship or something like that.

Melanie (09:49.651)
Hey. You asked why I beefed with Locke, I told you.

Melanie (10:02.112)
Bye.

Shawn (10:03.267)
Matt or Melanie, can you tell us, so if your idea is that philosophers of the past aren't relevant today because we live in different times, who is today's John Locke to you?

Matt (10:12.438)
that's a good question.

Melanie (10:13.17)
it's not that I think the philosophers of the past aren't relevant, but I think they shouldn't have the final word. And I-

Matt (10:19.458)
The answer is me. The answer is me, Melanie. I'm the John Locke of today.

Melanie (10:22.652)
No, the answer is Ryan Davis.

Shawn (10:25.603)
Who's Ryan Davis?

Melanie (10:27.974)
He taught my political philosophy class. He's just a funny man. Also a very, very good political philosopher.

Shawn (10:30.803)
I Locke was a fun- I bet Locke was a funny man.

Matt (10:37.112)
He sounds like it. Boys, as you call something the second treatise of government, chapter two, part six, you know that you're like a barrel of laughs. Like people just can't. All right, let's get to the thought provoker. All right. First up is Jeffrey Epstein. So if listeners will recall when we talked about this months ago, I was opposed to the release of the Epstein files.

Melanie (10:47.899)
You

Shawn (10:59.395)
Yeah, which is a weird stance that you had. And I think it was a surprise to all of us.

Matt (11:05.267)
It felt reasonable to me, but anyhow, I was concerned about protecting victims and I didn't think that anything of substance was in the files. Well, the files were released a couple of weeks ago and at least 43 victims names were accidentally released along with their addresses and contact information. And very few people were directly implicated in any criminal activity. FBI director, Kosh Patel said there is no credible evidence, credible information.

that people named in the files trafficked to other individuals. So this is my question. Was it a mistake to release the Epstein files? Did the release of the files do more harm than good?

Shawn (11:44.292)
Matt, is this where your trust in journalism and reporting and government kind of skew reality a little bit? Because you're just taking Cash Patel's comment and just trusting it. Whereas I hear Cash Patel's comment and go, really? Really. There's no evidence that there's no way to find and discover that these certain people, that there's no evidence that these certain people are actually trafficking or taking part in the trafficking.

How can you take that as face value?

Matt (12:12.632)
Well, I phrase it like that because there's anyone who's a Trump supporter believes Cash Patel and they believe Pam Bondi. So there's a good 30 % of Americans that believe that Cash Patel and Pam Bondi are telling the truth that there's really nothing in those files. And I can't see the files for myself. based on the best information we have right now, there's nothing in, according to them, they've released everything. There's nothing in there. And those 43 victims,

Shawn (12:38.177)
Yes.

Matt (12:41.708)
have now had their names exposed to the public against their will, against their, like to me, that's a huge, by the way, against the law, the law says you should, they shouldn't have done it, but they did. And so to me, like what I've heard so far is like, I don't know, some billionaire who owns like, I don't know, like Victoria's secret or some, there's somebody from Goldman Sachs that she resigned or some professors or whatever. I'm like, fine. Like great. We're like, we've figured out like some people knew Jeffrey Epstein.

But those 43 victims whose names are now out there, that's irreparable harm and I don't think that it's worth whatever we've learned from the Epstein files.

Shawn (13:19.195)
the scriptures teach us that the demands of justice in all situations need to pursue the demands of justice, right? God is a just God and he allows for through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, mercy to be applied and also justice to be applied. Like that is just, right? Justice was applied to Christ. And I think throughout scripture it says, this demands of justice always have to be satisfied. So if we have a situation where we probably do have lots of revealed truth in the Epstein files about people,

and it gives us the ability to apply justice, then I think it's, I agree with you, it's nice to protect, you have to protect them the best you can, the victims, but you have to pursue the demands of justice in this case for their sake, for their sake, but how can you possibly, go ahead, Melanie.

Matt (14:00.728)
Sean?

Melanie (14:01.738)
But do you think that a wide release of the files to the public as a whole is what's pursuing justice?

Matt (14:11.47)
Right. Kash Patel is the guy who in the run up to the 2024 election demanded that we hold these people accountable. And he promised he would release everything. And now as FBI director, he has seen everything and he chose not to prosecute or not. Like there's a person whose job it is to bring us justice. And the person they put in that position was the person who said, I'm going after justice. So if he's not, then maybe there's nothing there to pursue.

Shawn (14:38.851)
And to me, see that's where my skeptical mind says, Matt, don't be naive, This guy is protecting, this guy has got, I'm skeptical of that, Matt. There's really no evidence, there's no evidence that can link people who did wrongdoings in these cases in thousands and thousands and thousands of emails. Of course, the powerful are protecting themselves. I think this is one of the nails in the Trump MAGA coffins. Like this is such a terrible, terrible thing that they're not willing.

Matt (14:50.094)
But it's.

Shawn (15:08.109)
to prosecute and to expose the truly evil wrongdoers in these things, this is gonna bite them so hard. This is an awful, awful thing. This is one thing that makes me go, you guys are protecting yourselves and protecting the powerful? Awful, like you're done, I'm done with you.

Matt (15:23.822)
Well, and they're hurting victims. So that's from the very beginning. So again, I think that we should pursue justice. I said at the time, I think that if there was anything in there, they would have pursued it. But if now in a change of administration, they choose not to pursue those people, no amount of publicity is gonna make them decide to pursue it. All they're gonna do is drag more names through the mud.

Like, do you really believe, Sean, it was accidental that they released those victims' names? They somehow scrub all the names of their friends and acquaintances and somehow the-

Shawn (15:58.019)
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That makes it even worse. It is such a bad look for the Trump administration, for Cash Patel, for Pam Bondi. I watched the Pam Bondi when she was in Congress trying to answer things. Matt, was so, no, and it was so blatantly disgusting that to me, I'm like, way to go, guys. You're trying to transform the Republican Party into something good.

Matt (16:12.162)
Hmm. jeez. She didn't answer anything.

Matt (16:20.078)
Yeah.

Shawn (16:26.251)
And many of us look at things that he's doing and changing international relations and go, okay, we're open to that. Let's see. And then they do this and I'm done. Like this is just disgusting what they're doing.

Matt (16:34.147)
Hmm.

Well, so then just to this question, Sean, did the release of those files do more harm than good?

Shawn (16:42.403)
To whom? mean, yeah, to the victims? Yes. Did it do more harm than good to the perpetrators? No, it's serving them because now they're protected. These idiots were protecting them.

Matt (16:45.27)
Yeah, just is is america

Matt (16:55.116)
Yeah. I don't see how we're better off today than we were, I don't know, two months ago when we didn't know.

Shawn (16:59.619)
But you Matt had hope or faith that if there was something in there, your beloved politicians would do the right thing and prosecute.

Matt (17:07.116)
I still believe that. If there...

Shawn (17:08.995)
So you trust them, you believe Cash Patel and he says, there's just nothing in there to use. I can't go after anyone because there's no evidence that anyone did anything wrong. You believe him?

Matt (17:18.67)
I mean, okay, who, so what you're saying to me, Sean, is that there have to be people in there that both the Trump administration and the Biden administration want to protect. Who is there, who is there out there that's so powerful that both Democrats and Republicans want to protect them? It's certainly not the, I mean,

Shawn (17:30.083)
100%.

Shawn (17:40.077)
People with money, people with power, people with influence, people who are involved in all the wrongdoing who have everything to lose.

Matt (17:52.172)
Well, if that's true, then we have a very, very dirty, nasty system.

Shawn (17:56.845)
Gadianton robbers, they are corrupt. They make secret combinations. Is not the Epstein, I mean those secret combinations, how long did his evil wickedness go on and was hidden and protected by powerful and evil people? Many, many, years. So it continues.

Melanie (17:58.472)
Mm-hmm

Matt (18:11.586)
Well, Sean, I just don't want to believe that that's how our government is. I don't want to believe that because it doesn't, there's just so many good people that are in government. Now I'm not saying that Pam Bondi and Cash Patel, but there are good people in government, like on the Democrat and Republican side. It's just hard for me to believe that there really are people that are so rich and powerful that no matter who you elect in office, someone's going to try and protect them.

Shawn (18:38.465)
Well Matt, you are Mr. Smith and when you go to Washington, you're gonna realize the truth and you need to filibuster until you faint.

Melanie (18:47.232)
And I think the thing is, like, not everybody in government has to be corrupt for corruption to still exist. You can have a lot of good people trying to do the right thing, and one or two people willing to keep secrets and take bribes can do a lot of damage.

Shawn (18:53.859)
Well sat down.

Shawn (19:02.859)
Amen. Amen, Melanie. Points to Melanie.

Matt (19:03.182)
Okay. All right, I'll give points to Melanie too. Only because it's a, I know it's a special day for you and that's why you get points.

Melanie (19:07.68)
I barely said anything guys.

Shawn (19:08.045)
Mm-hmm

Shawn (19:11.821)
I'm sorry, I didn't shut up. But when you did speak, it was powerful.

Matt (19:16.374)
Okay, let's talk about drugs. Over the-

Melanie (19:16.518)
No, no, Yes, my favorite topic.

Shawn (19:21.187)
Good, you be first and I'll shut up.

Melanie (19:22.72)
no.

Matt (19:22.988)
Yeah, you go first on this one, Okay, over the last decade, many states have legalized the recreational use of marijuana. This past week, the New York Times editorial page acknowledged that assumptions they had made while advocating for the legalization of marijuana were wrong. They now argue that it's time for America to admit that it has a marijuana problem, citing the rise in addiction and other problems that have come from the legalization of marijuana. In a related story, a major health study

recently found that a cup or two or three of coffee or tea every day helps keep dementia away. Science often suggests that behavior inconsistent with the word of wisdom will lead to added health benefits. The word of wisdom is not more explicit about marijuana than it is caffeine. Neither substance is specifically mentioned in the word of wisdom. And as you look at like changes in the temple recommend, the question doesn't give you any further clarity.

The temple recommend question about the word of wisdom is simply, do you understand and obey the word of wisdom? If you go to the gospel topics essay part of the website, there might be a little bit more information to kind of guide people. But here's the question I have. How should people decide when to follow science advice from doctors, YouTube, friends, et cetera, when making decisions about how to follow the word of wisdom?

Shawn (20:46.467)
As a background, just clarity on the question, to summarize, you're saying the word of wisdom is a little vague. As we try to do our best to interpret what is and what isn't in the word of wisdom, how do you use these different sources?

Matt (20:59.962)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, because sometime like 10 years ago, everybody would have said marijuana is great. And it looks like today people are like, coffee and tea or caffeine is fine. it used to be, Sean, when we were missionaries, we would say in the baptismal recommend interview, do you keep the word of wisdom? That means abstain from coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol and other harmful drugs.

But that's not there anymore. If you look at the gospel topics essay, it's not that coffee and tea are still explicit, tobacco is explicit, alcohol, guess, is explicit, but nothing about caffeine or marijuana or all these other things. And so, yeah, that's the question. Like, how do we decide?

Shawn (21:42.147)
So I posed this last night to a bunch of 21 year olds and we got into a very fascinating discussion and debate, but Melanie's a 20 something year old. let's hear Melanie's first.

Matt (21:52.3)
Yes, she is. You go first, Melanie.

Shawn (21:56.001)
You like your drugs, right, Melanie?

Melanie (21:57.32)
Well, I just think, I love them. Not actually, I think when I was on my mission, I had the word of wisdom explained to me in a way that I very much enjoyed and or like I appreciated it rang true for me. And the idea there was that the idea behind the word of wisdom is that you should never rely on any substance more than you rely on God. And if you end like anything in your life, if you end up depending on it so much.

Matt (21:58.891)
No.

Melanie (22:27.058)
that it takes a higher priority over God, or it's what you need to get out of bed in the morning or face a tough challenge, then that's a sign you should avoid it. And you know, like I felt a little called out for my love of ice cream, but...

Matt (22:37.175)
Okay, but...

Shawn (22:41.454)
Hahaha

Matt (22:41.934)
But Melanie, there are like, okay, there's anti-anxiety drugs people take. There's anti-depression drugs people take. Some people say, I don't want to go to a doctor and get a prescription for those anti-psychotic drugs or whatever, because I feel like I can self-medicate with maybe caffeine or maybe like marijuana or something like that. And so I don't need a doctor's prescription to tell me I can kind of listen to my body. like, how do you know? Like I think it's really good counsel, right? Like

Is it becoming an addiction or something that you need? But sometimes you do need stuff.

Melanie (23:20.125)
Yeah.

Shawn (23:21.825)
Yeah!

You

Matt (23:25.486)
How do you know, Melanie, if you need it, need it, or if you just are developing an addiction that you think you need it?

Melanie (23:35.22)
I think it depends on where you were at when you started using it, to some degree. But, like...

Shawn (23:41.297)
that's interesting. yeah. That's a point. Yeah, your intent. Your intent.

Matt (23:43.544)
Tell me more.

Melanie (23:45.841)
I don't know, it's not a fully fleshed out thought. But I think sometimes like, I don't know, I could see myself being particularly sad on one day, right? Or particularly stressed and you turn to some substance to help without stress. Or maybe you could look at escalating usage. Like if you use it, as you use it, do you use it more and more frequently as you go on? Because I think that's generally a point of concern.

Matt (24:12.078)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (24:14.787)
Wow, these are like really pragmatic like approaches to it. I didn't hear and expect that. That's interesting.

Melanie (24:14.922)
But I also think...

Matt (24:15.192)
Okay.

Matt (24:21.966)
I'll share

Melanie (24:22.142)
I also just think things like this are between you and God though. Yeah, go ahead, dad.

Matt (24:27.01)
Yeah, let's Sean go last on this one. So I think I've said that I started taking ozempic about a year ago, but all this just explained my process in that. Like, so it was around like November, December of last year and I'd be reading my scriptures and praying and I'd feel like you should look into this ozempic stuff and I would look into it and I'd be like, there are these potential side effects and then I would read stories. I did all the research I could about it and I was like, I don't think that's for me. I'm not going to do that. I don't want to risk the side effects and all those sorts of things.

But then I would keep filling these promptings to like, you should do that, you should do that. And so then eventually I was like, okay, I feel like this is what I should do. And so then I took that to the Lord. said, okay, I've done, I've thought it out in my mind. I've studied it. I feel like I should do this. Is that the right thing? And then I felt some confirmation that I should do it. And then, but I tried to be really like systematic about, I want to keep track of all of my vitals. I want to keep track of everything so that if there's anything happening to my body, I'll know.

Shawn (25:14.327)
Wow, whoa.

Matt (25:23.352)
positive or negative, like what's going on. And I think we should do stuff like that, right? Like I didn't have a doctor prescribe it to me. I didn't seek out medical counsel, but I also didn't just like go exclusively to YouTube and listen to the guy that was telling me like cash use are bad for me or something like that, right? I was like, trying to find from a whole lot of different sources, what was good, what was bad, but the initial impetus for it was a prompting I received that I should look into some.

Shawn (25:51.917)
Wow, Matt, have an opinion about Ozempic and those types of drugs, but how could I possibly argue with the wisdom that you just spit out, man? Like that's obviously the approach that we're supposed to take in everything in life. And who do I trust more than my beloved Matt, my mission buddy, Matt, who learned those things before his mission and applied them on his mission and throughout his life? I love that approach and I have no argument against that. Man, that's beautiful. It's amazing. Yeah, we should.

Melanie (26:11.464)
you

Matt (26:19.79)
So that's the way.

Shawn (26:20.803)
Well, it has to be the way, right? If you're willing to put that much faith and trust in God, that you're willing to go take one element of, one choice before you and go through the wrestle and the labor to seek God's will and to align it with your will, and that's how you make your decisions, I mean, how do you argue with that? That's the latter day lens 100%. Praying for revelation, like that's amazing. So you're saying that applies to all of the Word of Wisdom, like if I should drink coffee or not, if I'm willing to go through

Matt (26:40.899)
Yeah.

What is your-

Shawn (26:50.157)
humble, brokenhearted process of praying about it and making decisions and getting confirmations, there's the answer.

Matt (26:56.962)
Yeah, we're going to talk about this maybe a little bit more in a second, but I think that there are important principles and one of them is if I felt like I needed to start taking coffee for myself, I think that God is not somebody who hides things or lies about things or is secret about things or is deceptive in any way. So since the word of wisdom has some language from called prophets and apostles, then I would definitely feel like I need to talk to my bishop.

about my decision to drink coffee. And I need to go through, I need to have some counsel with my direct priesthood leader on that because coffee is something that's like clearly there in the word of wisdom. Same thing in alcohol, right? Yeah.

Shawn (27:39.075)
Hang on, hang on, hang on. Pause. Let's discuss that for a minute because the word coffee is nowhere in the word of wisdom. In fact, the argument that some of these 21 year olds had last night was they pulled, they were like, go straight to it, Sean, go straight to DNC 89, the word of wisdom. And it even starts by saying to be sent by agreeing, not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation in the word of wisdom, showing fourth order and will of God in the temporal. He was, one guy was like, it's not a commandment, it's not.

It's not a commandment, it says it right there. But he used that, Matt, to be able to say, yeah, think if I decide to do coffee or go to the Lord, I shouldn't be kept out of the temple. He's like...

Matt (28:06.456)
Well, but I-

Melanie (28:08.082)
Yeah

Matt (28:16.654)
So there's somebody that can you make that choice and that's your bishop, right? He has the priesthood keys or your stake president. They have the priesthood keys to help you in that wrestle. But when there's a living prophet, not just one, but many living prophets that say hot drinks means coffee and tea, then that's a level that I can't just go to on my own because of what the word of wisdom says.

Shawn (28:35.811)
Okay, counter.

Shawn (28:41.435)
I agree, but I'll give you a counterpoint. There is a theory, I believe in this, that canonized scripture is the word of God and prophets all day long are reemphasized. Most of what they do is reemphasize and teach the canonized word of God. This is a scenario where they've interpreted a word hot drinks or strong drinks, strong drinks, meaning alcohol, hot drinks, meaning coffee and tea, but it hasn't been canonized.

Matt (28:49.966)
Sure.

Matt (28:57.251)
Yeah?

Shawn (29:09.719)
Like why wouldn't they just go and go, okay, we live in 2026. It's clear that the prophets have emphasized what hot drinks is. Just go at it by revelation. That way it's canonized, but it's not.

Matt (29:19.886)
Well, it's the same. It's same. Go ahead.

Melanie (29:20.234)
So, Sean, Sean, do you think that the word of wisdom is a doctrine, like an enduring truth, or just a principle and an application for our day?

Shawn (29:31.299)
Great question. This is what we debated last night. It says, by revelation in the Word of Wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God. So I think if it's the will of God, then if I go against the will of God, that's a sin. when we say doctrine, I would definitely have to say if it's against the will of God, it's a sin. Does that count as doctrine, I guess?

Melanie (29:50.625)
See, because I've been thinking during this conversation that sometimes I wonder if the word of wisdom as it was canonized in Doctrine and Covenants 89 can be more harmful to our understanding than it is beneficial. I think we, not to say, not to say that the word of wisdom isn't beneficial, I think it's definitely a commandment for our day. And it's a guideline given to us by living prophets to avoid coffee and to avoid tea.

Shawn (30:04.269)
That's what the other 21 years said. This is amazing.

Melanie (30:19.424)
But I think Doctrine and Covenants 89 does not teach the same things that were taught when we currently understand the Word of Wisdom.

Matt (30:27.16)
Yeah, it's like-

Shawn (30:27.201)
Matt, that is, Matt, go do your magic surveys with 21 year olds because that is verbatim what they all said last night. That's amazing, Melanie.

Matt (30:33.826)
Yeah, but I've been reading the law of Moses and the Lord's law of health and the law of Moses is canonized scripture and none of the members of the church today are living the law of Moses as it is in the Bible.

Shawn (30:44.831)
Matt, that's what they said last night. This is crazy. Yeah, but clearly Jesus Christ said, I'm not destroying, it wasn't a bad law, the law of Moses. I don't want come in here to destroy it. You don't need to delete it from scripture. It can be canonized because I fulfilled it. And those things will teach you more about what led to me and why the new law is fulfilled in me. So it's just because it's in canonized scripture, it's very clear that it's not to be followed.

Melanie (30:47.424)
You

Matt (31:04.398)
Okay, so what

Matt (31:08.686)
So what you're describing, Sean, is what we call modern revelation. And modern revelation, it doesn't matter what Doctrine and Covenants, section 89, says itself, as much as what matters, the living prophets say about it. Their job is to help us interpret and understand scriptures and how they apply to us today. And so if President Oaks says, hey, look, I was reading the Bible and God told me, like the church, we need to like stop eating pigs, right? Pork is now bad.

Shawn (31:27.436)
Yeah, no

Matt (31:36.984)
then I'm gonna have the same process if I'm like, but wait, I need pork. It's like my protein, it's my go-to thing. I'd have the same thing. Like, I'd be like, okay, President Oaks has told me no more pork. I feel like I need it. I need to counsel with my priesthood leader who has the keys over whether I'm worthy to go to the temple as I make that decision about whether or not I'm gonna eat pork.

Shawn (31:44.355)
of editor.

Shawn (31:57.313)
I love the faithful stance that living prophets, living word of God, God lives, he continues to reveal. I do love that and I agree with you. I just wish that they would canonize some of these things that become so much clearer. I'm reading right now, I've got in front of me the church's handbook. The word of wisdom is a commandment, it says. Okay, well then I can compare that to 89 and go, I don't know why it says it's not a commandment, but I like that clarity because I can go now search deeper to understand why. And then it goes on and further says,

Strong drink literally means alcohol and hot drink literally means coffee and tea. But what's fascinating about that, one of the things that they brought up these kids yesterday was if you go a little further down in the 89, he was like, they gave the green light to drinking alcohol that's from barley. I'm like, what? I it literally says it down here that they drink, right?

Matt (32:46.126)
I know. I know. On my mission, all these people will be like, no, it just says I have to make my own beer and I have to make my own wine and then I can drink all of it that I want.

Melanie (32:51.188)
Yeah.

Shawn (32:53.677)
That's right. That's right. Because it says for all beasts of ill. Yeah, please.

Melanie (32:55.626)
Can I provide another take?

So I think BYU religion classes, and apparently my family finance class, because there's no distinction, they place this heavy emphasis on what's doctrine versus what's principle. And I really vibe with that, because the idea is that doctrine doesn't change over time. God is our loving Heavenly Father. He's always going to love us. I don't know. I don't pay attention at religion.

Shawn (33:17.475)
principles do?

Matt (33:22.35)
President, President Oaks calls them temporary commandments, commandments that don't change and commandments that are like temporary commandments.

Melanie (33:26.248)
Yeah, it's like

Yeah, it's like principle or application or something, right? So I think we can look at the scriptures and we can look at the law of Moses, right? And we can look at the word of wisdom as it was given in section 89. And we can look at the word of wisdom today. And we can say there are a lot of things that aren't consistent, right? Jesus turned water into wine. They were drinking alcohol back then. We can eat pork now. And the doctrine, what seems to be the enduring truth, is that God cares about the physical health of our bodies.

and he's going to give us guidelines to make sure that we remain physically healthy. And what those guidelines are might change as time progresses, but what's important isn't what we think is physically best for our bodies. It's what God has told us. And it's our choice whether we're going to listen to him or not.

Shawn (34:16.739)
Interesting, good take Melanie.

Matt (34:17.868)
And so if there's something where he hasn't said anything specific, like maybe Ozempic, maybe that's on us to decide for ourselves. But if he has said something like, there are church leaders that talk about marijuana being bad, then we should exercise greater caution before we just go choose that on our own.

Melanie (34:18.836)
I

Shawn (34:34.755)
I mean, I'll go with what both of you said. You both speak great, awesome doctrine. think truth, but I think that is the approach. We have to be obedient to when it is clear. Because yes, even though there's not canonized verses that say hot drinks means coffee or tea, there is an abundance of prophets, an abundance of them saying that it is coffee and tea. And so I'm with you, Matt. You can trust that. Now, Melanie, whether that's a doctrine or a principle, I don't know, but there is some reason that in the DNC 89 it says to be sent by greeting book.

not by commandment or constraint. All I think that means is there's a law that exists from Adam and Eve to today and will forever exist that says don't kill people. Now there's nuances, manslaughter or accidental murder or murder or killing people in war or whatever, but it's universally a 10 commandment even to say don't murder people, don't kill people, don't kill people, right? But can you have a universal health code or law or commandment that talks about marijuana if marijuana has not existed for 2,000 years or?

So that's your point is that those as society develops things like this would be a list of 5,000 things in the DNC 89. Hot drinks means coffee, tea, Ozempic marijuana. Is that true to you guys at all or no? Shut up, shut up. Okay.

Matt (35:48.076)
You get the points, Sean. I like it. No, I'm serious. I like what you said. Melanie, who are you giving points to?

Melanie (35:53.585)
Mm-hmm. I'll give him to Sean too. He's been crowdsourcing. Look at all of the other perspectives he brought with him today.

Matt (35:57.226)
Wow! Okay!

Matt (36:02.38)
That's true, that's true, that's really good. Okay, we're gonna move on to Clark G. Gilbert, sustained as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Shawn (36:02.548)
there we go. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Melanie (36:04.468)
those get points.

Shawn (36:10.145)
All right. Yeah, you got some history with that, Matt, right? Or something, you got something there, yeah.

Matt (36:15.84)
I do. Yeah. The Salt Lake Tribune called it a controversial choice. Yeah, I actually know him personally. And so it's a little different for me, but I want to know this. Sean, you talked about the importance of praying for a confirmation that the president of the church is called of God. Does the same apply when someone is called to the quorum of the 12 apostles? Cause I'm going to, I'm going to say this upfront.

Shawn (36:21.495)
Yeah, I saw that.

Matt (36:45.486)
I have never prayed to know if Elder Cosay's call to the Twelve was inspired, because I don't know him. So there was no reason for me to question that. But I know Clark Gilbert and I think this is true of everyone. When somebody, it's easier to sustain somebody that you don't know than it is to sustain somebody when you know them well. So do we need to do that, Sean? Is that a principle, a latter-day lens principle? Quorum of the Twelve,

Melanie (36:52.896)
you

Shawn (37:04.152)
Mmm.

Mmm.

Matt (37:14.926)
Because I don't do it for 70 either. Is that something where we need to pray and ask, hey, give me confirmation that this is a call from God.

Shawn (37:22.659)
I mean, you just preached the truth about Ozempic and how you went through this humble, faithful process of learning truth of things. Why not apply that to our leaders, our bishops, our stake presidents? My experience has been, and I don't do it with everyone, not even close, but when I do that, the Lord gives me this power of sustaining that is real, more real than just like a lazy hand raise in sacrament meeting one time. Not that I do it all the time.

And no, I don't feel like it's a necessary thing. Is it important to do? It's a wonderful thing to do, to feel the spirit about our, I mean, the scriptures refer to our leaders as sacred prophets, sacred leaders. That's a pretty bold word. And whenever I pray to sustain or support or about our sacred leaders, I do feel the spirit. Like I feel like that's a really powerful concept, even though they're just men and women, they're just people, but the calling that they have is a very sacred, sacred thing.

Matt (38:15.959)
I know.

Shawn (38:19.491)
And the more we revere it, and I think God's will is that we revere those things. So my answer is no, you don't need to pray about it at all. Because most people's answer that I've talked about this is, know Joseph Smith is a prophet because I prayed about it. And because he's a prophet and the church is true and the Book of Mormon is true and the Bible is true, I just have faith in all these things. But it doesn't hurt. Like it's a wonderful experience to do it. I started a little bit with Clark Gilbert, but I haven't really gone to that point of like, that confirmation. Yeah.

Matt (38:47.138)
Yeah, you know this Sean and when Sean and I were roommates in our apartment, we had pictures of the first presidency in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, each one of them individually, like on our ceiling, like in our house. And when I when I first got married, I had him in my bedroom. I put the whole first presidency in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and our landlady was like she came in and tore them all down. She's like, why are you putting pictures of undertakers on the seat on my walls?

Melanie (38:54.354)
you

Shawn (39:00.696)
Ha ha!

Shawn (39:07.15)
You

Melanie (39:15.304)
You

Matt (39:15.32)
You're trying to like scare me that I'm going to die soon. And like, so when I was younger, I had this really strong, I Levi calls it apostle worship, but like I strongly, strongly revered everybody in the quorum of the 12 and everyone in the first presidency. And so I have to say like when they announced Clark Gilbert, I was like, it didn't feel like I wanted to put his picture on my wall. Maybe I'll say it that way. Right. And Melanie, maybe you feel a little bit that way too.

Melanie (39:45.479)
Yeah, so I'm not gonna name names or anything, but I was helping set up for a student activity at BYU when this announcement was made. And one person pulled out their phone and was like, Clark Gilbert's gonna be the new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And at least two other people in the room pulled noticeable faces and were like, bruh. So I have yet to meet anyone who's received this favorably.

Matt (40:07.522)
Yeah. Yeah, and I think.

Matt (40:13.976)
Well, so let me, I'll tell my story. Yeah, go ahead, Melody.

Shawn (40:14.293)
Okay, why? Why? Tell me why? Share with our listeners why.

Melanie (40:17.944)
The students I knew were upset because a faculty member in their department had been fired because he thought that that faculty member was too liberal is the story that I was told. So clearly there are details that I'm missing and perspective that was not included. But I think there have been a number of people at BYU who have felt that he's not been open to perspectives and viewpoints that they've valued highly.

and he's used his power to enforce that.

Matt (40:48.524)
Yeah.

Matt (40:52.078)
So like I said, I know Clark Gilbert well, and I love, love, love him as a man and as a person. And I'll just share my, my personal experience because I think that it helps explain both who he is and, why it can be hard for people. when he was first brought in as president of BYU Idaho, he, for whatever reason, I imagine it came from direction from the board of trustees, which is the first presidency, but he was very firm. Like people at BYU Idaho should not do research.

And he would talk about that all the time, but like I strongly disagreed with him about that. I felt like research was a really important thing. And so as he would give these talks and like, basically push this message of like research is bad. I would be personally hurt by that because I was like, I feel like you're devaluing me as a person. feel like you're telling me what I'm doing is an important or meaningful. And by the way, I feel like called to do this. I don't do it for my own personal gratification. It's a lot of work.

on my part and I'm doing it because I feel called to do it. And so to Clark Gilbert's credit, like he came to my office and we sat down and talked probably for an hour and I explained to him my perspective and he explained to me his perspective. And in the end, we both left kind of feeling like he has his job. I have my job. We trust each other to do our jobs the way we're supposed to. And sometimes we're going to disagree about things like whether everybody at BYU Idaho should do research. But then

Like to add to that, after that time, after that meeting, he would regularly come up to me and talk to me about things and check in with things. There was this one time at this meeting, he, he came up to me after the meeting and he started talking to me about like how he was conducting the devotional addresses. And I was like, why are you talking to me about this? And he's like, well, because you sent me an email complaining about all of this. And I was like, no, I didn't. He's like,

Melanie (42:41.344)
Thank

Matt (42:46.68)
pretty sure you did unless there's another Matt Miles on campus. And I'm like, there is, and it was him and not me. like to, but like to Clark Gilbert's credit, it mattered enough to him, like that we keep this strong relationship that he would, even though it wasn't even me, he was like, I'm going to explain my behavior to him because apparently he's sending me these emails and he cares about it. And so, so my, so what I would say about Clark Gilbert is like, he's like, a train engine.

Shawn (43:05.996)
Wow. Wow.

Matt (43:14.508)
Right? You give him a commandment, you tell him what to do, and he's going to follow that to the best of his ability. And that's exactly what I want in a person who's a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. But at the same time, that means that sometimes there's people whose perspectives he disagrees with and heads with him a little bit. But again, to his credit, when I was in that situation with him, he took the time to make sure that I felt valued. I knew that he loved me. I knew that he cared about me. And then he continued that on.

Shawn (43:19.843)
Wow. Dude.

Matt (43:44.152)
And so in my personal experience with him, he is the kind of person that leads with love, that he is always gonna do what he feels is the right thing to do. And honestly, as a person, he possesses everything I would want somebody to possess, who's been called to the member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. So yeah, it was hard for me to say, wow, I'm excited to put his picture on my wall, like little college me, because I know him as a person. But like, as I think about it, I'm like, he's...

Melanie (44:07.648)
Thank

Matt (44:12.953)
There's everything like, everything about him is something you would want in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. That means that he's gonna disagree with me about things sometimes, but guess what? I think members of the Quorum of the Twelve disagree with each other about things. And I think that in a healthy church, you want people with different perspectives. So the fact that he and I might disagree about something like maybe whether I should do research, it doesn't say he shouldn't be in the Quorum of the Twelve. It says, good, put him in there and he can express that view and he can help shape that view.

Shawn (44:25.965)
Yeah.

Matt (44:41.889)
In the end, all of those different views can come together to lead to what Heavenly Father wants in the church. So that's, yeah, that's my take on him.

Shawn (44:48.931)
Thanks for sharing that, dude. That's really fascinating. Melanie, when you learn about President Uchtdorf's political stances, do you roll your eyes and make faces about that too?

Melanie (44:59.718)
Yeah, so I've been thinking about this a lot because President, it's President Uchtdorf now. He did a lot of back and forth thing very quickly. Sorry, I can't keep track. But I think the more established members of the Quorum of the Twelve are very good at keeping politics out of the things a lot of the time. And, you know, me and politics have a complicated relationship.

Matt (45:10.914)
It is, yeah, Sean. How's it-

Shawn (45:12.195)
Sorry.

Sorry.

Melanie (45:29.512)
almost as complicated as being Locke. But one thing I thought was very interesting as like, I've been having conversations with BYU students about the new members of the Quorum of the Twelve. Everyone was ecstatic about Elder Cosay, right? We were like, we like his talk on environmentalism, we like that he's French. He gave a lot of like what we'd consider diversity points to the Quorum of the Twelve, right? And after Elder Gilbert was called,

a number of people were like, we were really hoping for a black man. Because I think here at BYU, especially with the people I surround myself with, we feel like the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles should move in a specific way and start representing specific demographics and certain ideologies. But I've been thinking about how we are a global church and how when I was 12 years old at FSY, surrounded by people who felt a little not super intelligent and not super ambitious and motivated,

It meant a lot to me that we had religious leaders who were academics, that I could look up and see President Nelson and say, he was a heart surgeon. It's okay if I'm ambitious and I want to go to college and I want to have a successful career because look, the president of the church has done that. And I think Elder Gilbert is going to provide a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who a large portion of the church can relate to.

And even though his experiences and his perspectives may not be experiences and perspectives that I align with, and even though he may like stand against a lot of things that I very decidedly stand for, I think it's important to recognize that it is a global church. And God loves all of his children, and he wants to make sure that there's at least one apostle who will be able to speak to all of them. Not like one apostle for everyone, but there's an apostle for every group.

Shawn (47:19.18)
Interesting.

Yeah, sure.

Matt (47:23.267)
He's, yeah, I would say Elder Gilbert is definitely a political conservative, as are a lot of church members. And I would hope that God wants political conservatism represented in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. So I can, yeah, yeah, I can see why. So to me, that's not a knock on him, that we know his ideology sometimes, right? And it's not a knock on him that he...

Melanie (47:30.292)
Yeah

Shawn (47:37.175)
Which is what Melanie said, right? That's what you just said, right? Yeah.

Melanie (47:44.128)
you

Alright, so like, it made me sad at first, but we can move past it. Sorry, continue.

Matt (47:50.606)
Yeah, it's not a knock on him that he has strong convictions in his beliefs and the way he connects religion and politics. That's not a negative about him. But I do understand why people would maybe be like, I don't want that. But clearly God does. And I hope the story that I shared suggests that even though he has strong convictions, it's not that he doesn't listen to people and it's not that he's not open to hearing what other people say. In fact, my experience is the exact opposite.

everybody, he really, really cares about people first. And even though we might not see eye to eye on things, to him, it's super important for us to have like the relationship matters more than whatever it is we're talking about.

Shawn (48:34.613)
Okay, now after listening to you two, I'm reversing my opinion. Now you've convinced me, you guys need to go pray about these apostles, man. You guys need to get some spiritual revelation, stop overthinking it, and learn from God that He qualifies who He calls, especially in the apostleship. For example, I'm imagining you and I, you guys, we three having a podcast 2,000 years ago, and we just hear that this guy Saul, Saul, guys, Saul is now an apostle. Saul.

Matt (48:41.346)
You

Melanie (48:42.3)
Shawn (49:02.795)
dude that like fought against the church, this dude that's like so like worldly, this guy that's in the government. And I can hear you two going, shaking your head and going, no, this dude's stupid. This guy's evil. And good old me, humble me is going, guys, pray about it. The spirit will confirm to you that Paul is called of God. Is this not so?

Matt (49:23.247)
Uh, 100 % Sean.

Melanie (49:23.776)
Are you not receiving confirmation that we've wrestled and that we're concluding that we can sustain Elder Gilbert, even though it was tough?

Matt (49:27.939)
Right.

Shawn (49:30.755)
I don't like that you've cognitively you've come to the you've logic logically been able to convince yourselves that I can support this guy. I don't like that. No, I'm just kidding. I like that. I like that. I know what you're saying. No, I like it's true.

Matt (49:31.041)
Right. Right.

Matt (49:41.838)
No, no.

Melanie (49:43.934)
Just figure it works through me.

Matt (49:47.717)
I have a strong conviction that he's been called of God. I have a strong conviction. No, I'm serious. I have a strong conviction that Elder Gilbert has been prepared for this for a really long time. And again, I said, I know him well. He and I have talked about lots of stories about his personal life where I could lay out how God has prepared him each step of the way to get to where he is now. And I can also, Sean, I know that Clark Gilbert at no point ever was like position seeking, trying to move up in the church.

Shawn (50:16.301)
Yeah, I bet.

Matt (50:17.802)
None of this stuff did he ever as a person seek out and try to earn that in some way.

Shawn (50:22.657)
Yeah, he does. that's kind of my view of these apostles. There's very few, such a small percentage of anyone on the planet gets called to be an apostle. I really do have a trust and a faith that God qualifies these people. Like really, these are unique people.

Matt (50:36.258)
And decisions he's made, right? Like he has made decisions that professionally were not the right decision that financially set his family back financially. There were positions he was asked to do, things he was asked to do, that he didn't seek that out. And again, I don't want to share those stories because they're his stories. if he hasn't chosen to make them public, I don't want to do that for him. But I have a strong conviction, that he is not one of these people trying to climb the ladder.

Shawn (51:03.585)
Yeah, sounds like that.

Matt (51:03.588)
He's not one of these people trying to schmooze his way to the top. Like Clark Gilbert, just every single day of his life has always tried to just do what Heavenly Father wants him to do. And it has led him to this point. And so I have absolute conviction that he's called of God and was prepared for this and that he will learn and grow in this. But it's okay if I'm a little bit at the beginning like, wait, what? Yeah.

Shawn (51:21.687)
Yeah, I know it is. It is, I'm totally joking. It is good that you guys wrestle with it and use the, it's a joke, but I do think that it does obviously, our opinions have to be informed at the end of the day by seeking the will of God, right? We make covenant to remember Christ always in all of these decisions, which means I should be seeking God's guidance on, well, yeah, and there's nothing, yes, I agree. Your approaches have been awesome.

Matt (51:46.189)
It's okay that I didn't need to pray about Elder Cosay because I don't know him, right? But it's okay if I needed to seek a little more conviction on somebody I know a little bit better. Yeah. Okay. All right. Here's the big question. By the way, Melanie gets points on that.

Shawn (51:55.831)
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Shawn (52:03.969)
Yeah, that was good Melanie. Points to you.

Melanie (52:05.353)
Yay!

Matt (52:07.866)
She has left us. She's back. Okay, here's the big question. So in the most recent general conference, Quentin L Cook, Melanie's lagging. Okay. It's okay, Melanie, don't worry. In the most recent general conference, Elder Quentin L Cook said, as we contemplate the challenges of our day, we must remember that the savior during his earthly ministry also lived in turbulent and violent times. His focus was not on the political challenges of the day.

Shawn (52:09.259)
No, she's here.

Melanie (52:12.865)
I'm lagging.

Shawn (52:17.341)
there's a big sigh.

Matt (52:36.11)
It was on the perfection of the saints. Christ focused on the perfection of the saints, but president Oaks counsels us to be knowledgeable citizens who are active in making our influence felt in civic affairs. So here's the big question. And Morley, you'll go first. How do we balance these two competing emphases?

Melanie (52:56.203)
political convictions and religious affairs.

Matt (53:00.836)
Yeah, Jesus didn't care about politics, but maybe we should.

Melanie (53:00.993)
I have to make sure I'm caught up with you guys. I don't think I am.

Melanie (53:09.345)
I don't think it's true that Jesus didn't care about politics. I just think that politics was the least important part of his message. Because, well, I guess, yeah, it's not that Jesus cared about politics. It's that Jesus knew what was true. He knew what was most important, and he was going to defend it and stand for it regardless of who would upset. Right? I think we can see with the whole render disease or that

Shawn (53:20.323)
Mm-hmm.

Melanie (53:36.448)
which is Caesar's exchange in regards to paying taxes, right? He was gonna uphold the law of the land when it was important, but when he sees a woman taken in an adultery who needs to be given an opportunity to repent, he doesn't care about the temporal law. He cares about extending her an arm of forgiveness and showing his mission. And I think that's what each of us needs to do, right? I think there are so many political issues that it's easy to see as religious and moral issues.

Shawn (53:55.171)
I am.

Dang.

Melanie (54:06.217)
I know that this is a line that I struggle with a lot, right? My political perspectives are shaped by what I see as morally correct. And it makes it hard when people disagree with me. But I think what God cares about from each of us is that we engage with his gospel, we use his teachings to determine what we believe, and then we stand for what we believe, always leading with compassion and love of him first. And I think that's what Christ did.

Shawn (54:36.279)
Wow. Wow. Amazing, Melanie.

Matt (54:36.923)
That's good, Mallory.

Matt (54:41.455)
Yeah, I think, I think what I would say is his focus was not on the political challenges and that's the same for us actually, right? Our focus should never be on the political challenges. Our focus should always be on the perfection of the saints. That doesn't mean that we ignore, this is maybe what Melanie's saying too, it doesn't mean we ignore civic engagement and civic duty and ignore our communities, but that doesn't become our focus. If that's our primary focus in life, then we're missing the mark.

and we're missing the power that can come through the gospel of Jesus Christ. So it's like Jesus says, where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Or he says, what your eye is focused on, that's what's going to determine the light in your life. Our focus always needs to be on Jesus. And when our focus is on Jesus, we'll be guided to know what we should do in terms of civic engagement.

Shawn (55:32.717)
Hmm, interesting. I'm gonna say something really nerdy and say, think dispensational context matters. Meaning in 2026,

Matt (55:34.513)
What do you say Sean?

Matt (55:41.197)
Melanie (55:43.071)
Woo.

Shawn (55:47.235)
In 2026, we have an established foundational strong kingdom of God on the earth. I mean, there's gotta be at this time more prophets and apostles, more general authorities than have ever been on the planet, right? More wealth, more strength, more influence than ever before. And in that scenario, I think it's okay for us to say, go apply the gospel. And our prophets do say,

go apply the gospel of Jesus Christ in civic life. Go take part in it. Whereas at the time of Jesus Christ, our savior, the church was not established whatsoever, right? The children of Israel had gone completely astray. The Pharisees and the Sadducees ruled the day. And it wasn't really in that dispensation. That wasn't the point of that dispensation. So I think it really does matter that we live in a time where the foundation is set for us to go take part in civic life.

Matt (56:45.489)
But Sean, seven billion people on earth and 20 million members of the church. There's a whole lot of missionary work to be done.

Shawn (56:50.285)
Mm-hmm.

Instead, you're saying put the emphasis on missionary work instead of politics, is that what saying? Well, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you can in politics. I mean, I'm sure much good missionary work has been done by those who have entered civic life.

Matt (56:58.669)
Yeah, yeah, on the perfection of the saints.

Matt (57:10.479)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (57:12.173)
So it is part of the process. That's living, being in society is such a, participating in every element of society now is missionary labor. That is. So I think that is part of perfecting the saints and redeeming the dead and missionary work.

Melanie (57:23.199)
soon.

Melanie (57:29.013)
And dad, you can't be baptized if you're homeless. So we need to have an infrastructure where there are no homeless people so we can continue our missionary work.

Shawn (57:29.805)
Go ahead, Melanie.

Shawn (57:38.313)
Wow, that was a Levi kind of snarky kind of comment, wasn't it?

Matt (57:43.885)
It was, I love that. Do you have anything else to say about that, Melanie? Because otherwise they're going to to be the last word. That was awesome.

Melanie (57:53.279)
love it if that's the last word.

Matt (57:56.764)
Perfect, that's the last word. Hey everybody, thanks for joining us this week. Melanie's audio was a little bit lagged, but we'll fix that as we edit things out. So, cause that was classic stuff. Nice job, Melanie. I'm sure you guys have things you want to share with us. Feel free to text us and reach out. We'll share your comments on the show next week. Talk to you then.