Matt (00:01.004)
Welcome to the latter day lens. It's a very, very special day today because it is episode one five zero. Sean, you know how the kids do that six seven thing six seven.

Shawn (00:09.441)
Hehehe.

Shawn (00:13.697)
They don't anymore, man. When you do stuff like that, that's what caused them to stop doing it. So no, they don't do it anymore, because you're doing it.

Matt (00:21.656)
You know what? They don't do it in California. I know that this is true because we were at an in and out in California over the Christmas break and our order number was 61 and my son who's like, he's about 19. He's way into the social media stuff and we were outside and then he heard him call order like 80 something after they had called ours and he's like, no, I wanted to be inside when they did order six seven so I could see what they did inside of in and out. But I'm like, if they were going to do anything, you would have heard it outside buddy.

Shawn (00:50.933)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure they banned it. Because it was just annoying.

Matt (00:51.32)
I think.

okay. Or maybe California is over it, but Utah and Idaho are just beginning. When I was a kid, I saw a t-shirt at the mall that said, welcome to Utah. Set your watch back 20 years. Anyhow, yeah, I don't know. What I was going to say is we should, 150 is way better than six, seven, but I don't know that we want to start a weird gesture for 150 because there's not that many things that hit 150.

Shawn (00:59.765)
Yeah. okay.

Shawn (01:07.079)
That's not fair

Shawn (01:20.097)
Wait, isn't the church? No, church is at 200, right? Where are we at?

Matt (01:26.51)
200 the United States goes 250 this year 250 years. Yeah. The other reason why it's awesome is because it's the new year. It's January 2026 and we're back like we've had a little hiatus and I got to spend some time with Sean over the break. He found

Shawn (01:31.285)
Yeah, nice. Yeah.

Shawn (01:46.323)
I wrestled you to the ground. It doesn't matter that I'm only half your size. I wrestled you to the ground.

Matt (01:52.974)
Sean, we compare sizes, my belly is probably bigger by three times or four times than your belly. But your biceps, Sean, I got a chance to feel your biceps in person, like wow. Like if anybody, if you ever meet Sean in person, he's gonna look like short, he's gonna look super like.

Shawn (02:04.42)
hahahaha

Shawn (02:12.885)
Condensed, the word is condensed, man. Be politically correct.

Matt (02:16.898)
I don't, I don't know if that's the politically correct word, but it's the accurate word. Like you see Sean and he doesn't seem imposing. I seem very imposing, but like Sean said, he can take me down. No problem. It was, I was just trying to not pass gas as he threw me to the ground. But when I

Shawn (02:29.985)
Well, I did it intentionally in front of your children thinking you would step up and not, you know, just roll over and take it, but you did. You took it. So, yeah.

Matt (02:40.074)
I took it. I could not physically resist the strength of Sean's body. And then I felt his arms and I was like, my goodness. This is why Sean is an imposing character. Anyhow, that's what we did. Sean took me to the USS Midway. There was fun stuff to do in San Diego. And we went to a Russian restaurant and we had borscht and Sean.

Shawn (02:44.129)
You

Shawn (02:52.597)
What? Yeah, that's right, imposing, yeah.

Matt (03:07.288)
Sean ate salad. Like who goes to restaurant and eats salad? Sean.

Shawn (03:10.817)
What did you eat every single day for two years in our beloved Ukraine?

Matt (03:16.302)
potatoes.

Shawn (03:18.995)
You also ate beet salad. You also ate carrot salad.

Matt (03:22.506)
Only if somebody made it for me at my house, I ate fried potatoes. I had a rotation, potato spaghetti, some vegetable thing.

Shawn (03:29.153)
And bread, fried bread with, yep, fried bread with barbecue seasoning on it. Yep, you're a gourmet missionary.

Matt (03:34.062)
barbecue barbecue salt. Yeah. And Sean has a longing for beet salad. you know what I miss about Russia? Beet salad. So listeners, if no, no, I did not eat beet salad. No, I don't like mayonnaise. I don't like beets. Borscht has some good stuff.

Shawn (03:43.083)
Come on, don't you? You had B-celled more than you had borscht.

Shawn (03:49.664)
that's crazy. well, you're a weirdo. Okay.

Matt (03:55.98)
It was fun. Hey, hey listeners. Next time we're in San Diego, if you want to join us, you can't cause we didn't tell you. That was just a me and Sean and our family thing. And it was super fun. Anyhow, we're back ready to talk about all of the things we talk about each week.

Shawn (04:02.015)
You

Shawn (04:11.935)
Yeah, we planned that. was a really as a business trip, right? You came, we planned the latter day lens, the year in advance, all the topics, the point, the purpose, all that. So we're good now.

Matt (04:21.432)
That's what we're saying for the tax man so that we can make sure that all of those expenses are written off for the tax man. And I'm sure we.

Shawn (04:26.721)
It's too bad that nothing has happened politically in the last three weeks, so this will be boring.

Matt (04:33.318)
man, so much to talk about. You know, it's weird. Like if I'm not paying, if I'm not living my life, if I'm on a cruise ship, I don't even pay attention to what's happening in the world. I came home and I was like, no way. But anyhow, we'll talk about it all today. First up, we're going to get to the mailbag. This is, this is a little bit old. Somebody said, I know I'm a couple of weeks behind, but circling back to the constitution discussion, can't we believe something is divinely inspired and needs to be updated at the same time?

That's one of the amazing things about our religion is that we believe in continuing revelation. Maybe we need some continuing revelation with the Constitution.

Shawn (05:10.337)
It's a great thought, great point. mean, huh.

Matt (05:12.682)
My take on that is different. My take on that is that the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the founding documents that we believe to be inspired are aspirational documents. They're documents telling us what we hope to become someday that are trying to lead us to the and by the way, like the Articles of the Confederation that came before the Constitution.

I don't think that that's not divinely inspired. I think that that's also one of those aspirational sort of documents that kind of helped us get to where we need to be someday. So what my take on it is, just like we believe that the restoration of the gospel continues, that it didn't just happen in 1820 and it was done, but we get continuing revelation like the listener said, I think it's the same thing with our nation. I think that our nation was divinely appointed.

and we're trying to become the nation God always wanted us to be.

Shawn (06:06.773)
I don't know if this disagrees with you or piles on, but there's lots of statements in scripture that say that the scriptures that we have contain the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when there's a fullness, which I interpret as everything that we need for salvation and exaltation, the continuing revelation is less about salvation and exaltation. We're not receiving continual revelation for those things, right?

It's policies, it's ways to manage the kingdom on the earth, it's the ways to prepare for the Lord to come. But the most important parts, which are salvation and exaltation, the fullness, think, is contained therein. So I'm not sure, so I don't know if we apply that to Constitution, but it does feel like it's a document that was inspired with principles. I like, okay, aspirational principles, sure. But do the principles change? Do we need to add principles? I don't know that we do. And like the listener talked about, like, the word of wisdom.

Matt (07:05.592)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (07:05.607)
There could be additional revelation for the word of wisdom. But the principles that govern the word of wisdom or that govern salvation and repentance and all that, I don't know. I don't know that the Lord is gonna tell us you should only drink this much caffeinated Coca-Cola or this much Diet Coke. I don't think he's gonna say that. He gives us principles.

Matt (07:25.816)
Yeah, I think that we said, I think we think the same thing on this. You know, the Declaration of Independence, we believe that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with inalienable rights.

Shawn (07:28.693)
Okay.

Shawn (07:36.545)
It's foundational doctrine. It's just truth. Like what?

Matt (07:40.526)
But at the same time, it wasn't true at all, right? At the time, right? So it's true. That's right. Right. So. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Shawn (07:45.525)
They weren't applying it. That's why you say it's aspirational, right? Okay, I get your point. It's not gonna change. You don't think it needs to be changed. It just needs to be applied better.

Matt (07:55.714)
Yeah, we're still trying to get there. We still don't have a country in which all men are treated equally and we still don't have a country in which all men have inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Right? So we're trying to get there. I think the same with the church. Like, right early in the church when God reveals, let's say the three degrees of glory, they all understand it one way.

Shawn (07:57.485)
I like it. Nice.

Shawn (08:01.782)
Yes.

Shawn (08:05.599)
Nice. Nice. Okay. I love that. That's good. Perfect.

Matt (08:21.026)
But as the church grows and more people come in and you see different cultures and different situations, people can think about that doctrine differently than the original people who heard that doctrine. I don't think it's helpful for us to go back and say, now what did so-and-so think the first time they read that revelation? I mean, it's not like it's not instructive in any way, but we shouldn't use that to guide where we think about it today, right? Because I can read the revelation myself and receive guidance and inspiration about what it means.

Shawn (08:49.577)
Amen. Preach it. That's good.

Matt (08:51.082)
Okay, I think that's what our listener was saying too, right?

Shawn (08:53.985)
All three of us agree, great.

Matt (08:55.758)
Okay, now first up in the thought provoker is President Holland. Sean loves loves loves President Holland when Elder Holland was called to be in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1994, maybe like six months before we got our mission call. And when I was in the MTC, all I heard was Sean talking about Elder Holland, Elder Holland. I was like, whatever. He's just one of those 12 old dudes.

Shawn (09:18.849)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (09:23.01)
But then he came to our mission in November of 1995. And so I first want Sean, you to go ahead and tell us what you, I want the listener to be prepared for what you might say because Sean had a particular affinity for Elder Holland, probably from the moment he was called to be in the Quorum of the Twelve.

Shawn (09:41.385)
I mean, I studied his talks and stuff and I just loved his preaching style. And then he gets into the MTC and the first thing he does is that whole big group of missionaries, he says, look, we're about to give you a message, but only if you all raise your hand and promise that you will not tell your mothers what I'm about to tell you. And I was like, what, you can't do that? What are you talking about? And he was like, I'm serious. Raise your hands and make sure you promise me you won't tell your moms what I'm about to tell you. So we all like reluctantly raised our hands and his message was so just me. It was just.

He says, look, you gotta go out there and work so hard that you will be brought home on a stretcher. And that must've impacted you too, Matt, because guess what? You worked so hard that we had to bring you home on a symbolic stretcher.

Matt (10:20.398)
I had holes in my shoes. Holes in the bottom of my shoes for the last six months of my mission.

Shawn (10:26.069)
He said in that talk, Matt, skip meals, don't sleep, work so hard seeking for the souls of God, the children of God, and bring them to Christ that you're 110 pounds when you bring home, when you come home. And I loved that message, man. I was like, yes. Yeah.

Matt (10:41.525)
Yeah. Yeah. I remembered that same talk. He was talking about people who run marathons and they push themselves so hard that at the end of the marathon, they're like, lay on the ground and throw up and something like that. And he's like, don't you think missionary work is more important than a marathon? Yeah. Yeah. It was good. And then we were in, our mission was a small mission at the time. Uh, I think there were maybe a hundred, maybe 150 missionaries. We all.

Shawn (10:53.643)
Do that.

Shawn (10:57.217)
I love him, man! I love him! so great.

Matt (11:09.986)
gathered in a library room. So we had a very intimate gathering with Elder Holland. He shared the most powerful testimony of Jesus Christ I've ever heard in my life. So impactful. Yeah, Elder Holland was a great man.

Shawn (11:20.897)
I'll give you just one quick story. So when he was there, he also the next couple of days was going to, invited all the members to come and meet at the Biele Llebed, right? We rented out this big, whatever it was, concert hall, mall. Yeah. And all the members from all the other areas were bussed in and we were going to talk. Well, that day was, I remember it was this beautiful snowy day and we were out just inviting people to come see an apostle of God, a prophet of God.

Matt (11:31.592)
It was a mall. yeah, that's right, a concert hall.

Shawn (11:46.143)
And there's this kid like off the corner of my eye waiting for me as I was talking to someone. was like, great. Matt, what is it usually if some dude is like menacingly like waiting over you? It's usually what?

Matt (11:56.302)
gonna throw firecrackers at my feet?

Shawn (12:00.353)
I never had that. To me it was either a drunk guy ready to come and take a swing or was the mafia or a corrupt cop. So I was a little nervous. The dude comes up and his face was just busted up and his hands were all busted up. And he goes, you guys are the missionaries of Christ, right? Yes, we are. Well, you guys need to save me. Like I'm dead meat. Like I'm, my mom sent me here. You need to save me. I go, oh great. Well, why don't you come here tonight? We gave him a flyer to Elder Hall and we're like, this kid's not coming back. This kid's messed up. So we get off the bus to go and we see him and this lady standing at the front.

Matt (12:03.54)
yeah.

Shawn (12:29.449)
And this lady must have been his mom and she's crying and said, you gotta save my son. like, they came. All right, well, come on in. So long story short, Matt, Elder Holland gave this, it's such an amazing sermon. And if you recall, it went like 30 minutes long and he didn't know why. And it was right before this late bus from Harcov arrived that he gave his apostolic blessing. So he just felt inspired to wait for them to arrive. Do remember that? Yeah, that was amazing. Anyway, and then he does another unprecedented thing. He says, you know, I just feel like I want to meet all of you.

Matt (12:51.478)
No, I don't remember that.

Shawn (12:57.153)
So do you remember that? Everyone got in line and shook his hand. Well, this mafia kid, lost, we couldn't find him. So the next day at church, we're like, he shows up at church. And he gets up in his fast testimony and he says, look, I just want to share that I got in line and I wanted to meet, the whole meeting, I felt this weird feeling, this spirit, this love, this, I knew I had to change my life. And when he said I could meet him, I waited in line. And he says, when I got up to him and I shook his hand, he grabbed my hand, which was jacked up, messed up from fighting. He said, he's.

Matt (12:58.39)
Yes, that's right.

Shawn (13:25.569)
squeezed it so hard and looked in my eyes. And it was the most painful thing I've ever felt. And then he looked up and he stood up in that thing and he put his hands up and he says, he healed my hands. My hands were gnarled and broken from fighting and they have no more pain and they are not bruised anymore. He says, that apostle healed my hands. I'm like, what the heck? Is that really, is that true? And then we started teaching the guy and it was this pretty spiritual, amazing, like go from mafia to that. Anyway, dude, I got a story after story for Elder Hall.

Matt (13:44.342)
Wow. Wow.

Matt (13:52.406)
Yeah, yeah, he was amazing.

Shawn (13:54.741)
He spit on me. Elder Holland spit on me, dude. He spit on my head. Not on purpose, but he accidentally did.

Matt (13:56.718)
Listeners. Sean loves Elder Holland. Sean loves loves loves Elder Holland. I do too. And I say rest in peace. He was a great servant for a long time. Touched my life in a lot of ways. And I imagine I think everybody has stories like this, Sean. It seems to me like everybody has a story where Elder Holland touched them in a personal way. He was just a great person.

Shawn (14:21.825)
Yeah, powerful man, great person.

Matt (14:25.664)
Okay, well now we're going to move to something way less that Sean's going to hate talking about, but we got to talk about it. I might be misrepresenting what Sam said. I mean, I think that's what I, okay. I might be misrepresenting what Sam and Sean said, but as I recall just over, okay. Okay. Sam said this, not Sean. Yeah, he's not here. Take that Sam.

Shawn (14:34.681)
you don't really what I said? I never said this. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead.

Shawn (14:44.907)
Sam said this, I didn't. we can call him out because he's not present.

Matt (14:52.886)
Okay. So Sam insisted that Trump was not going to use the military to police the world. Well, it turns out, Trump decided to kidnap arrest, take over Venezuela, right? Capture the president of Venezuela. And, on Friday, he said that the U S was going to run Venezuela for a while, but you know, there's the, there's an interim president in Venezuela. Now in related news, Trump apparently lied to congressional leaders about his plans for regime change in Venezuela. He had said to them,

that this was not going to happen right before it happened, which is clearly a violation of the U S constitution. So even if you love Trump, even if you love what he did, please, please, please acknowledge that what he did violated the U S constitution because very clearly in article one of the constitution, it says that war powers are given to Congress. So there's nowhere in there that allows a president to invade a country without congressional approval. So the question is,

Shawn (15:48.609)
But isn't there, I mean, the spinner putting, yeah, we'll get to the question first, go ahead.

Matt (15:53.144)
Yeah, the question is which lie is worse, Sean? The lie to the American voters that Sam apparently believed that he wasn't going to police the world and get involved in foreign countries or the lie to Congress about what he's going to do in Venezuela?

Shawn (16:04.181)
Before I try and answer that, I found this clip of Donald Trump before when he was running and I wrote it down verbatim. He says, we don't seek war. We don't seek nation building. We don't seek regime change. We are not the world's policemen. That's what he said. That's what he said.

Matt (16:20.086)
Okay, there you go. There's the lie that Sam believed.

Shawn (16:24.211)
Amazing, dude. It's amazing. But but the spin they're putting on it is this isn't war. not we're not we didn't declare war on anyone. No, listen, the Biden administration even put out warrants for Madero's arrest, even under their administration. They were they even said 50 million dollar reward for any information that would lead to the arrest of Madero. So the United States has viewed him as a criminal.

Matt (16:33.322)
Okay. Okay.

Matt (16:50.584)
Okay.

Shawn (16:53.437)
and an unlawful president since the Biden administration. So the spin, which unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know, has set up the Trump administration to be like, yeah, we didn't declare war. This was a man, we have a warrant out for his arrest. We arrested him, that's all we did.

Matt (16:58.062)
Okay.

Matt (17:10.23)
Okay, did you know that Iran has a warrant out for Donald Trump's arrest? And he's been convicted, okay, what happens if Iran decides to come into the United States and not kidnap, but arrest Donald Trump and take him back to Iran? Would that be an act of war, Sean?

Shawn (17:14.251)
Come get him!

Shawn (17:24.378)
we're going to retaliate, but.

Shawn (17:28.893)
I'm not arguing, I'm saying with their spin. The spin that they're putting on it is not an act of war. There's no war, we haven't declared war. They just are arresting us.

Matt (17:31.383)
Yeah. Well,

Matt (17:35.766)
Mm-hmm. Well, all of this violates the, so I don't just, just for historical context, when George Washington was the president of the United States, Great Britain and France were at war with each other. And George Washington wanted to put out a statement, a declaration that said the United States will remain neutral in the conflict between Great Britain and France. And Congress said, this is unconstitutional. You cannot do that.

without congressional authorization. Because the president, if you read article two, is only the commander in chief when called into active service by Congress. So the president doesn't have any foreign policy powers unless Congress has delegated those powers to the president. And this is why also when James Madison was president of the United States, the war of 1812 happened. Because James Madison as president said, I need some foreign policy powers.

So please Congress declare war on Great Britain so that I can have the power to act in this capacity. And so we declared war on Great Britain in 1812 so that James Madison could function as he thought a president ought to be able to function at that time. So anyhow, the history of it and the document itself says Trump has no legal authority, constitutional authority to do what he did, whether or not he wants to call it an act of war. You can't take foreign leaders from other countries and bring them to US prisons.

without the authorization of Congress. And you certainly can't lie to them about it.

Shawn (19:01.089)
So how do you, do you know if in 88 when Noriega was basically taken, like he was the leader of Panama, and we went in and we took him and brought him to America and put him in prison. Was that approved by an act of Congress? I don't remember, I don't know.

Matt (19:18.318)
So the Congress passed a law called the War Powers Act or the War Powers Resolution that allows a president to take some actions, some military actions, without Congress declaring war. But there are very strict provisions of that act, one of which is that Congress is notified in advance of the action.

Shawn (19:40.993)
Did they do that, you think, in Noriega?

Matt (19:43.086)
They did do that with Noriega. Ronald Reagan didn't do that in Iran Contra when he was selling like presidents, presidents in the 80s of presidents have violated in the past, but this is definitely never in the past has the president lied to Congress just before they took some kind of action. Like when Obama went after Osama bin Laden, all the congressional leaders were informed about that, even though it was highly sensitive.

Shawn (20:09.057)
Well, look, we know that this president of ours is, like, Ben Shapiro calls him a mud monster, right? Like, he is made of mud. So no matter how much mud we throw at him, it doesn't matter. He just grows stronger, right? We know that, like, blatantly, when people were asking him, right, like, what's the right answer if the press is asking the president of States, hey, tell us why you just went in and took this president of Venezuela? Right, the right answer is, well, because of democracy. He was a dictator and we needed to free the people.

But you know what Donald Trump's answer has been? We gotta get the oil. The oil is the most important thing. Like he is, is blatantly, like there's no hiding his ridiculous intentions, right? And so I think with his age and with his personality, he's just gonna keep doing what he wants to do. And I saw a quote from him this morning that said, if the midterms we lose, the Republicans lose Congress, he says, I'll get impeached. I will get impeached. Which.

Matt (20:52.462)
man

Shawn (21:07.081)
is fascinating that he knows or thinks that's going to happen based on his actions. I mean, won't there be some legal process to see if what he's done is right or wrong?

Matt (21:17.454)
Trump wants to get impeached because it emboldens his base who thinks he hasn't done anything wrong and he thinks that boosts his popularity. Honestly, do you know what I actually don't think? I actually don't think that Congress is going to waste their time impeaching Trump anymore because it's too hard to convict. What they'll do in my prediction, what they're going to do is they're going to impeach all of the people around him. Pete Hegseth is going to get impeached for when he

Shawn (21:22.706)
okay. Jesus, dude, what freaking circus. It's a circus.

Matt (21:46.83)
sent classified information to a reporter on accident. Kaush Patel is going to get impeached for things he's done as FBI director, Pam Bondi. They're just going to get all the people around Trump who are enabling him. They're going to impeach all of those people. That's what they're going to do because that's low hanging fruit. Nobody in Congress really loves them. Nobody's very loyal to them. And so it's easy to impeach all those people. And so then once people start seeing, I can't get anything by staying loyal to Trump.

Shawn (21:51.44)
yeah?

Shawn (22:02.573)
interesting. That's a cool prediction.

Matt (22:16.44)
then there's nobody left that'll be loyal to him and then he loses his power. So that's what I think they'll do.

Shawn (22:20.341)
I like it when you throw out bold predictions. I guess we'll have to wait and see. That'll be interesting. I'm sorry I totally dodged the question about which lie was bigger. It's almost like at this point, you just expect him to spin and to lie and to just do whatever it takes to, because he's just going to do what he's going to do. He's not even afraid of it anymore. Literally blatantly is saying, yeah, we went in there because we need to control the oil. Like what president before him

Matt (22:25.837)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (22:29.986)
hahahaha

Who cares?

Matt (22:46.743)
Yeah.

Shawn (22:48.789)
whose intentions were to control the oil would have blatantly just said that. None of them, right? It's for democracy, it's for freedom. At least he's honest, right? At least we know what we're getting with him.

Matt (22:53.197)
none of them.

Matt (22:58.99)
There you go. Well, you know why in the past presidents wouldn't have been so honest? Cause they would have been afraid that somebody would have said, let's uphold the constitution or somebody would have said, let's hold people accountable for violations of the law. And he's, he's emboldened because the courts aren't pushing back on him at all. And Congress isn't pushing back on him at all. So yeah, I would be emboldened too.

Shawn (23:24.331)
Is this the other, here's another tangent, sorry, but how is this like America first policy, right? I've heard a lot of people going, well, there you go. He's completely hypocritical because this is not America first, right? This whole, we don't intervene, we don't intervene. Don't you think, Matt, that the real reason, now if you step back just objectively as a historian and look back and go, okay, why did they do this and was it good for America? What would you say? Not in the light of Congress, not that he like do all these,

But was it good for America to weaken China and Russia's influence in Venezuela and to stop the drug trafficking and to remove a dictator who wasn't elected?

Matt (24:05.87)
So it's a long answer.

Shawn (24:07.999)
My bad, my bad. yeah, yeah. What do you think?

Matt (24:10.198)
It's a long answer. Marco Rubio has been wanting to do this for at least 10 or 15 years. And so I think as secretary of state, Marco Rubio has been pushing for this. He's also been pushing to support Ukraine. I think if Marco Rubio weren't there, Russia would have already done worse things in Ukraine than what's happened so far. So I just think, so I think that the long game from Marco Rubio's perspective, cause I can't, I can't think that Trump thinks in these kinds of terms. Marco Rubio says,

Venezuela props up Cuba financially. And so you take down Cuba, but first you have to take down Venezuela. So I think that for Marco Rubio, this is all about democracy and freeing Latin America from Marxist or socialist dictators. I think for Trump, I think all Marco Rubio had to say to Trump was gas prices are still high. You promise they would come down. Venezuela has a lot of oil. If you get that oil on the market, gas prices come down.

And Trump was sold. I think that's, that's all it is for Trump. Yeah. And I think in Trump's world, if gas prices are down, Americans will not be as angry with him. Like, cause his approval ratings have been very low. And I think that he thinks if gas prices are still high at the midterms, then people will say, what has Trump done for me? Eggs are expensive, whatever is expensive. But if I can fill up my truck for half price on election day of midterms,

Shawn (25:11.073)
Wow, crazy.

Amazing.

Matt (25:38.242)
I have a better shot at keeping the house. And so I think that for Trump, was all about lower gas prices, better approval ratings at the midterms.

Shawn (25:40.929)
Insane man.

Shawn (25:46.561)
So you think strategically, was listening to John Stewart analyze this whole thing. So you think strategically, potentially gas prices go down, midterm elections come and people are like, you look, the economy is a lot better. Like look at the price of eggs and gas. The Republicans have win the midterms. Then you take like 20 years from now and the puppet Venezuelan presidency falls apart and socialism comes back and.

Joe Stewart's like, and guess who happens to be in the presidency at that time? It's a Democrat. And guess who will be blamed? The Democrats at that time.

Matt (26:18.218)
Ha ha ha ha ha

I mean, I don't think of things in such stark partisan terms as John Stewart does, but there is history for that, right? There is precedent for that. at the same time, I'm willing to give Democrats more blame for their foreign policy than John Stewart is, but those kinds of things do happen. But yeah, look, Biden on foreign policy was weak, weak, weak. And I think I've said that many times how much I did not like his weak stance on foreign policy. Democrats are way more America first in the strict sense of the word.

Shawn (26:35.425)
Yeah.

Shawn (26:41.131)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (26:50.786)
than Republicans are. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene, she should be a Democrat the way she thinks about America first, because that's how Democrats usually are. And that causes foreign policy problems usually.

Shawn (26:52.454)
wow.

Shawn (26:58.155)
Huh, interesting.

Shawn (27:03.147)
Well, points to you for letting me not answer the question.

Matt (27:06.606)
Okay. All right. We're going to go to this is this is our last thought provoker question before we get to the big question and I don't know. Maybe it's kind of weak but it's I think it's something okay. So the National Park Service is going to spend 54 million dollars to repair seven famous broken fountains throughout Washington DC.

Shawn (27:09.185)
take it off on tangents.

Shawn (27:18.889)
No, it's interesting.

Matt (27:31.554)
The goal is to fix old plumbing and clean historic statues in time for the nation's 250th birthday in 2026. These repairs are part of a larger plan to make the capital city look beautiful for residents and visitors in our 250th birthday party. Meanwhile, Doge cut thousands of small federal grants and contracts. Many of them saved far less than a million dollars each. It shuttered clinics, it ended food and education programs, it hurt local communities.

without meaningfully reducing overall spending. So my question is this, is this $50 million better spent polishing monuments or sustaining the everyday programs that quietly make a difference in people's lives?

Shawn (28:11.583)
Now, Matt, you love monuments. Whenever you travel, you go spend time in the museums, the monuments. You love that stuff. So what's your answer?

Matt (28:19.424)
I do. do. And, I want to do both. On the one hand, I'm upset that Trump is tearing down the White House and building a big, beautiful ballroom, because we're not invited to the ballroom. Right. So, but I also love when I go to Washington DC and I see the monuments to the people. And I think Trump knows this as well as anybody.

When you say who are the greatest presidents in the US history, it's the people who have monuments to them in Washington DC. And so how do you build a legacy? How do you change the way people think about your presidency? How do you change the way history thinks of you? You build big, beautiful monuments so people can enjoy it. And it has a powerful emotional effect.

Shawn (29:12.075)
I don't know what to say to you right now, I like that you're passionate about it. I like that you have a meaning in life that you get to go and visit all of these monuments and it makes you feel something. I like it. So I can't give my true opinion because you love it.

Matt (29:24.11)
Sean, you're into art. How do you not feel something when you go to those monuments? You're an art lover.

Shawn (29:28.725)
You know, when it comes to art, when I was in Washington DC a few months ago and I was in the Library of Congress, that is the most disgusting aesthetic. It is disgusting the amount of design that is just poor taste. It's over the top, over expensive, bloated, overspent, and it is ugly as ugly could be. Not a single interior designer or designer would look at that and go, this is beautiful, this is nice.

So my answer that would be get government out of both of those things. Let the religion who does a great job at helping the poor help the poor. a private, I don't know if private, the free market is gonna put up monuments to presidents and stuff, but do we need them? Do we need fountains?

Matt (30:18.19)
It is so funny to me. It is so funny to me that your answer is don't do either of them. And my answer is do both of them.

Shawn (30:25.407)
And now you're supposed to do both. There you go. And is there a latter day lens on this? There's probably not, right? There's probably not a scriptural real like guide on this. And so you got two people who can differ on this and we love each other's fine, right?

Matt (30:37.1)
you

Matt (30:42.006)
Okay, I actually do have a scriptural thing on this, Sean. Okay, Captain Moroni needed to rally the troops in defense of liberty and all of those things. And so what did he do? He created a banner that he waved around. He had people hang that banner, the title of liberty near their homes. It was on the city walls. And that banner, that title of liberty, inspired the people.

Shawn (30:44.673)
Matt (31:08.984)
to rise up and defend themselves. And that's what monuments do for a community and a society. And the church does this as well, Sean. Go to Temple Square, you see monuments to the restoration, monuments to the leaders of the church, because it's inspired. Go into the conference center and there's all that artwork displayed to inspire people. And I don't think I want religions or private organizations creating artwork for the nation's capital, because then they're going to impose their own propaganda on it.

Shawn (31:18.805)
Yeah.

Matt (31:38.862)
But the government has no agenda, Sean. The government has no agenda. They just want...

Shawn (31:38.945)
Yeah, I agree. I agree with that.

What did you just say to me?

Crap, did you just say? The government has no agenda? What the heck?

Matt (31:50.478)
They just want to tell the truth as it objectively is and they're going to create art that reflects that perspective.

Shawn (31:59.027)
I like that you love this Donald Trump so much because it just inspires you that they have no agenda. They're honest, good people, good intentions. Okay. All right. Okay.

Matt (32:08.448)
Now I think elected officials have an agenda, but there's the government is a different thing, right? There's government employees. So you say, here's $50 million. This government agency is going to create artwork to inspire the nation. And they're just going to hire the best artists regardless of their agenda. And just, no, you don't think this is true.

Shawn (32:16.097)
Okay.

Shawn (32:30.113)
I mean, proven time and time again that again, when you spend other people's money on other people, like the government does, you're extremely wasteful with that money. And so sure, if the government hires an artist to do it, they spend $52 million to hire that artist. Whereas the private market could have got that done for 20 grand in a competitive marketplace that would have been much better. It's just a huge waste, man. Like you privatize, okay, how about this? We'll compromise. Privatize one of those, either the monuments

or the taking care of the poor. Let's compromise. Privatize one of those and then you're going to have way more money left to do the other.

Matt (33:08.832)
how about this in middle ground? I read today that the corporation for public broadcasting is shutting down. the corporation for public broadcasting was a private organization set up in the sixties to take that government money for public broadcasting and help funnel it into good educational programming. Right? What if you do something like that? The government's going to give the money to a private organization like the corporation for public broadcasting and their job is to think of the public good.

Shawn (33:29.109)
Yes.

Shawn (33:35.233)
Yeah, I got an easy answer.

Matt (33:38.542)
Because I feel like... Okay.

Shawn (33:38.689)
I have an easy answer to that. If that organization was producing good content, good enough content for the people, then it could survive without the government subsidies. And then it fails completely because it can't. That's the, let's say it together, on the count of three, two, one, the invisible hand. Right?

Matt (33:50.7)
No, no.

Miss.

Matt (33:59.212)
Milton Friedman. Sean, Mr. Rogers was never profitable, right? But Mr. Rogers was good for good for no, it was all funded by Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Sesame Street, Electric Company, the polka dot door. These things would not have survived on the Disney Channel or Nickelodeon because they don't get the clicks. They don't get the views, but they're so good for developing character.

Shawn (34:06.943)
I know, was it? I'm sure it was, no?

Shawn (34:22.177)
And we would be fine without them.

Matt (34:27.336)
How could you say that Fred Rogers is crying right now? He's up in heaven with Elder Holland, trying to figure out like what happened to Sean? Why does he love you and hate me so much?

Shawn (34:35.649)
What?

Shawn (34:39.849)
What I'm saying is, if it's truly valuable, then it could exist without all these free handouts and government subsidies. If it's truly valuable, like there are things that exist today that have a better and bigger impact on people's well-beings than Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street, because they create a value that are actually good for people and they're willing to engage in it.

Matt (34:59.054)
Are you thinking of Bluey? Bluey, is that what you're thinking of? Dora the Explorer? So Sean, are you familiar with Stone Mountain? If I say Stone Mountain, do you know what that is? Okay. In Georgia, just outside of Atlanta, maybe about an hour north of Atlanta, there's a big rock that sticks up out of the ground and it's got a sheer side that's a cliff. And a lot of people like to go camping there because it's close to the city, but it's outside the city. And on this cliff, it's called Stone Mountain. Somebody painted an enormous mural.

Shawn (35:08.467)
No, I don't

Matt (35:28.746)
in honor of Confederate generals and Confederate soldiers. And it's huge and it's there. And it was not funded by the public. It was funded by private individuals who were upset about losing the Civil War and they wanted to create a monument to their heroes who lost in the Civil War. And so today there are a lot of people who disagree with that position on the Civil War, who have a hard time going to Stone Mountain because it's this big.

like advertisement for a perspective that they hate it. And I think what.

Shawn (36:00.641)
Is it public or private?

Matt (36:03.616)
It's public land, but it was privately, it was privately paid for to paint that painting, right? So the government said, we're going to allow you to paint this, but we're not going to pay for it. And so the government, if the government had painted it, you could come back today and say, no, no, no, we're getting rid of that, right? But you can't because the government didn't pay to paint it. so anyhow, that to me is the challenge when you have private people producing public art.

Matt (36:34.274)
And there's a lot of these situations in the South where after the Civil War, Southerners got tired of the narrative they were being told. And so they said, we're gonna put up monuments to Confederate generals. We're gonna put up monuments to these Civil War heroes so that we can tell a different story.

Shawn (36:49.493)
Yeah, but but Matt, but if you look at all the private businesses and walls and billboards, there's probably a lot of Confederate stuff anyway, right? So take away any Confederate art on public lands and you probably have it all right. You can't change. mean, you can, I guess, but it's the

Matt (37:03.052)
No, no, that's right. It'll still be there, but it won't be in when I go camping. It won't be there for me to have to stare at it. I love it. Sean doesn't go camping. Sean doesn't care.

Shawn (37:09.057)
cares. I don't go camping, so I don't need it. How the government spends its money, and then you give two examples that are, I think one is more important than the other, but I'm glad you feel passionate about it. It's good to see and hear other sides. is. It's interesting to me.

Matt (37:20.344)
Hehehehehe

No, it's fine.

Shawn (37:37.055)
I think it's a huge waste of money and then I think the other is not effective. It doesn't take care of the poor. They don't do a good job, a great job at it. And I've seen that religion does a much better job at

Matt (37:37.102)
Okay.

Matt (37:42.392)
Yeah.

Matt (37:49.39)
So at the end, Sean gets the points because even though I tried a latter day lens perspective and I tried another perspective, Sean's like, I don't care. I'm sticking to my perspective. And it's a valid point. It's a valid perspective. That's why I'm giving you points. Because number one,

Shawn (37:58.881)
What?

I would definitely give you the points, No. Because number one...

Matt (38:08.374)
No, no, that's fine. I want to hear why you're giving me points.

Shawn (38:10.049)
No, because you did bring in the latter-day lands and you did bring up the, does, your point about Morrone, the title of liberty, and let's just say honestly, I'll say it in the words that you were willing to say, government propaganda is very effective. Okay, okay.

Matt (38:27.018)
Mm hmm. No, it really is. Okay. All right. Here's the big question. It's a little bit of a shift, but Gallup did a study. They wanted to understand what makes people get involved in public service in rural communities. Like this is something as political scientists we study all the time, but it is harder to understand if like the guy that decided to run for mayor of New York, Mom Donnie, his motivations for running for mayor of New York are probably very different.

than the motivations of somebody who decides to run for mayor in like Rigby, Idaho. So they did a study to say, okay, what is it that makes somebody in a rural community decide to step up and throw their hat in the ring and get engaged in public service? And what they found is it usually grows out of everyday involvement, such as helping neighbors, showing up, building relationships, and it's not about formal positions. It's about the strong social connections, encouragement, and seeing other people take action.

that matters the most in getting a person to run for office. It's not the money, because mayors don't get paid that much. It's all about caring about your community and wanting to make a difference. Oftentimes what they need, because most people already care about their community, but what they need is they need support. They need connection with other people. And most people just need an invitation that says, why don't you run for office? Or why don't you come join the school board? Or why don't you do this?

Those are the things that unlock the potential that people already have to be great public servants. So my question is this. This is the big question. What role does religion play in fostering this kind of civic minded leadership? Is there anything else you could think of that could create the same kind of connection or motivation or opportunities for public service than religion or is religion the best way to do this?

Shawn (40:20.065)
So you're saying that in rural communities, it's an altruistic motive to get involved in politics, public service. And the question is, that's the right motive. What are the best ways, what role does religion play or should it play a role in pushing Mamdani, for example, to have that right motive as opposed to whatever.

Matt (40:28.792)
politics or civic, yeah, public service. Yeah. Being on a school board.

Matt (40:47.566)
Yeah, is there like as I look around and again, it's probably because I'm a political scientist as I look around I say, what is it the people who aren't in favor of religion? What is it that they say is the key to getting people involved to getting them doing something to getting them to be a part of their community and make a difference and they have all these different answers. But I think to me the answer is religion. But I wonder.

Do you think there's anything other than religion or is it really the religion is the best way to do that?

Shawn (41:18.369)
And the reason you think religion is the way is not because you've got political leaders, which at least in our church, you don't have political leaders basically pushing. I mean, that's not true. They do say get involved, right? They do say be involved politically, locally, nationally, everywhere. So they do. But your main point is the point of religion is to make us become more like our heavenly father and to follow Jesus Christ. That makes us better people. And that's going to then give us a better ability to be more altruistic and more.

effective in our service, is that the point?

Matt (41:49.26)
Well, I think there's a lot of aspects of religion. So one of them is I think that God wants us to be involved. God wants us to help other people. God wants us to be anxiously engaged in a good cause. And so for many, many people, anxiously in a good cause is public service, right? Maybe it's volunteering as a high school coach. Maybe it's volunteering for some community youth group. Maybe it's doing some kind of like working in the city, like as a voter, like voter polls or something like that.

Shawn (42:04.513)
Hmm

Shawn (42:14.881)
Oh man, see now you're gonna make me bring up Ayn Rand.

Matt (42:23.072)
Okay, you can bring up Ayn Rand, but I think that God wants us to be engaged in a good cause and nothing is more important. So if we say the family is the fundamental unit of the church, then what's after family? Is it our ward family or is it our community family? Like we really are supposed to be our brother's keeper and a lot of ways the way that you're your brother's keeper is getting involved in your community and religion is what kind of makes people want to be involved in their community.

Shawn (42:52.257)
But I think, I don't know if I agree with Ayn Rand, but here's her premise, and I think there's truth to this. Anyone who says my motive to get involved in public service, be a volunteer to be a coach or to be on the school board is altruistic. Her point is that's trash because man's nature is self-interest. There is some self-interest in that person wanting to be on the board. I've seen it, yes way, I've seen it a million times.

Matt (43:17.678)
No No way, Shmon.

Shawn (43:21.427)
My friends who run for school board are doing it for, I'm sorry, Matt, they're doing it for recognition, status. They're doing it to further their careers. That's not altruistic.

Matt (43:33.208)
I'm not saying that some people are not selfish. Clearly, there are selfish interests why people run for office.

Shawn (43:43.873)
By the way, she doesn't say selfish, she says self-interested. Like not only is it selfish, it's self-interested. So the coach who volunteers probably has a kid on that team and they want that kid to have the best chance so he volunteers. That's self-interest, that's not selfish.

Matt (43:46.668)
Okay, sure.

Matt (43:56.726)
Okay, when I go to vote, Sean, there are these three older women from my ward that are always sitting there with the election book open and I have to show them my ID and then I sign the book. They're not getting paid anything for that. They've been doing that for 20 years, not for self-interested motives. Librarians, there's plenty of people that volunteer at the libraries.

Shawn (44:05.579)
Okay.

Shawn (44:11.135)
Yeah, okay, that's a good example. Okay, that's a good example. I mean, you could argue that it is self-interest because they're sitting there and going, I'm doing something good for my community. It makes me feel like I'm a part of something. Are they a part of something? Are they really helping people? I don't know.

Matt (44:28.312)
Well then if you're gonna take that kind of a view, then everything in religion is also self-interested, right? Because why do I teach primary? Yeah. Now I think that this is somewhere where Ayn Rand is not accurately portraying. Of course some people have self-interested motives.

Shawn (44:32.809)
Okay, good point. Good point. Good point. Good point.

Shawn (44:39.105)
But hang on, we have this debate on our mission too. Is it wrong to seek after your self-interest? It's not, right? The scriptures teach us that we should seek diligently for righteousness and for salvation. It is not wrong to seek after self-interest. Plus, if you seek after your self-interest of God and salvation and joy and happiness, that naturally will affect your wife, your kids, your community.

I disagree with you that seeking after something in self-interest is always a bad thing. I don't think it is. And in religion, it's okay.

Matt (45:08.215)
alright

Matt (45:15.328)
Okay, I'm gonna give a quote from Joseph Smith that's not exactly right, but it's something, it's sort of like this, right? Joseph Smith said, man who has the gospel of Jesus Christ, or something like, a man who's filled with the Spirit of God, or something like that, is not content to bless himself and his family alone, but roams throughout the earth trying to bless the lives of all of those whom he sees. Something like that. Yes?

Shawn (45:44.213)
Yes.

Matt (45:44.608)
And this applies to everything in life. Like if you're a person who's becoming closer to God, you're not content to just think about yourself and think about your family. You want to make the lives of everybody around you better. And that's going to lead you into public service. Sometimes.

Shawn (46:00.555)
But isn't that why religion is so good? Let's just take our church, the true church. The fact that it's a lay leadership, there is no opportunity, other than like status, there is no opportunity to monetarily receive a self-interest, right? It really does a good job at making everyone go, okay, I've got a calling or I wanna do something in the church. One of my motives, I guess it really is probably,

out of faith and altruism and self-interest in helping other people. But I just don't see that in public service that you call public service. It's not public service. This is work. This is a job for most of these people. They get paid to do this. This is a career path.

Matt (46:38.798)
Well, you're not, you're not, you're not in a rural area. That's what I'm saying. Like you're in a place where sure it is a career path in Southern California, where city meets with another city and there's plenty of tax revenue to go around. But in rural America, they're not getting paid anything for these positions. Not, mean, they get paid something, but not enough to justify their work. Okay, here's the other side of it, Sean. Religion gives you the skills you need to be successful in public service.

So as an example, I have a friend, the city was raising taxes on him. It's so much like it's just, it was like a special assessment. Anyhow, he, they were redoing the street outside of his house and they were going to make him pay for sidewalks and curbs. Cause that's what the city code says is that you have to pay for that. So it's going to cost him like $10,000. And he's like, I would have to get a home equity loan just to pay the taxes on this. he was not content with that. So he said,

I'm going to organize and I'm going to and so he organized he got a meeting with the city council and he used the resources around him to bring a lot of attention to the issue. I don't think he won the issue, but then he used the resources around him to try to influence the next election. And what is it that gives a person who's never been involved in public service? What gives them the confidence to say I can go do this. I can make a difference or I know how to talk to people. I know how to organize the church.

The church teaches people how to do that from a very young age because when he was a deaconscorn president, because I knew him when he was a deaconscorn president, he was asking adult men to pass the sacrament. And so he had no fear about going and asking people of a higher station in the community to do something to help him out. So the church in that way also, religion really helps people develop skills that make them better public servants.

Shawn (48:29.697)
Okay, I can go with you in that scenario because your scenario there was the altruistic approach to being a public servant was fighting against government. I like that. I can go with that. you're... Yeah, okay, I'll go with that. No, and it's true. I agree that the role of the religion is to help us to become more skilled, more obedient, more faithful, more repentant, more humble, all the attributes that make for a well-rounded, God-like human being. That prepares us for career. It prepares us for...

Matt (48:36.446)
Hahahaha

Shawn (49:00.001)
I refuse to call it public service. I hate that. It's not true. So I won't do it. I won't man. I won't. It's not public service. You're not serving. It is a job unless it is your grandma's that are just sitting in that booth. You can't put all those guys in the same category. You can't put Donald Trump in the same category as your grandma's at the booth.

Matt (49:10.688)
It's just, it's just people. Okay, here's the other question.

Matt (49:17.986)
Well, we're talking about rural public service right now. Okay, this is the, if as a political scientist, if you were to say to me, what can we do as a society to help people get involved and do things and make a difference? We would say two things. would say number one, political parties, political parties exist to teach people the skills of how to make a difference and win elections and all that sort of stuff. Because political parties have a self interest in making that happen. The other thing they would say is social media, social media teaches people, la la la la la.

Shawn (49:45.872)
wow.

Matt (49:47.67)
And so then I'll ask it in this way. Do you think that either of those two will do a better job than religion at teaching people the skills they need to make a difference in their community?

Shawn (50:01.537)
Sadly, belonging to and getting heavily involved in your political party probably has more influence, right?

Matt (50:08.322)
Yeah, I think it does.

Shawn (50:11.077)
I mean social media is just a chaotic mess and I don't know if it's having good or sometimes good, sometimes bad influence. I don't know that it's positive influence but yeah I think your point about belonging to a political party probably has more influence.

Matt (50:25.9)
Yeah, I think this is what's sad. Social media gives people the feeling, the sense that they're doing something that matters while they're doing nothing at all. Right? It's the equivalent of playing a video game. You play a video game, you earn lots of points and you think you've accomplished something today when you've done nothing at all. And social media, especially the people in my life I know personally who spend a lot of time fighting on social media, that's what they're doing. They're wasting their time as if it's a video game.

Shawn (50:31.669)
huh.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Shawn (50:43.157)
Hahaha

Matt (50:53.272)
They think they're making a difference and all they're doing is just spewing hate into this world full of hate.

Shawn (50:57.529)
And if they're not speaking hate, they're just getting self-gratification for like, got my, like I won an argument or I got my voice or my point was out there. But in fact, it's such an impersonal way to actually make a difference. I don't think it is. Yeah.

Matt (51:11.79)
It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. But political party does. So here's the irony, Sean. People hate political parties. They say, get those stupid organizations out of our world, we hate them. People hate religion, they say, get those stupid things out of our world, we hate them. They love social media. So it's this weird thing where people love to do the thing that doesn't make any difference at all. And the thing that would make a huge difference, people are like, we hate that.

Shawn (51:15.361)
Yeah, I hate that. Oh, yeah.

Shawn (51:36.417)
So then your, sounds like your solution is be religious, be an active, faithful member of your religion and also join a political party.

Matt (51:45.698)
Yeah, if you want to make a difference.

Shawn (51:48.331)
And that makes for a good public servant.

Matt (51:52.844)
I mean, we can disagree about whether they're public servants, I think this, my personal opinion, every single person in public service could make more money doing the same thing in the private sector. They choose public service because they care about their community.

Shawn (52:09.153)
Ah, there's a, come on, there is a status and an influence. Come on, man. My friends who are on the water district board don't do it because they love water and they want water to be better for our community. They do it for their connections. They do it for their, they literally 100 % do it for business. The connections they make, the influence they have, it's all self-interested and I don't judge it, it's fine. But don't you dare call it public service.

Matt (52:37.454)
Sean, if you were to do your exact same job for your local community, you would not charge them, you could not charge them the same amount that you charge private organizations.

Shawn (52:50.593)
But yeah, you missed my point. My point was I would never do that. No one whose job, no one whose motive is to make money decides to, yeah. But if I were like, listen, I've considered this, go be on that water board because I know that the ex-mayor of San Marcos is on that water board. I know that there's huge business owners on that water board. They will bring business to me. It's a self-interested relationship.

No one's going on there and going, let's clean up the water. None of them. I have something unique to serve with in that I can make the water better in our community. No, it's influence. They want to go profit. And it's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

Matt (53:36.59)
I agree with you that many, many people who choose to do that have self-interested motives. But what I'm saying to you is what the founders intended was for it to not be that way. And if we want it to be less that way and more the way the founders intended, it should be public service, that you do this because you care about your community, that you.

Shawn (53:49.761)
Really?

Shawn (53:58.347)
Well, I'd like to hear more about that from you. Like teach me what is the difference and you have to be honest, there's a difference between public service and politics or professional politicians or whatever you want to call it. And if you're saying, look, the solution is to get more public servants and less professional politicians, that's an interesting discussion.

Matt (54:06.862)
Yeah.

Matt (54:17.259)
Yes. Okay, that's what I've been trying to talk about.

Shawn (54:20.763)
okay. sorry, I'm slow. I'm not a political scientist, man. It takes me a minute.

Matt (54:22.55)
No, it's... No, no, it's fine.

No, it's fine. We can talk more about this in the future, because I gotta persuade you that there is such thing as public service, and our world is a...

Shawn (54:31.295)
Okay, now I can think about it more.

Because you're saying if everyone in politics right now is a public servant as opposed to a professional politician, our society would be much better. Okay, let me think about that. Maybe next week come up with a follow-up question because that's an interesting topic. Okay.

Matt (54:45.312)
Yes.

Matt (54:51.626)
If Kyle Whittingham, right, who retired as the U of U head coach, if instead of retiring and coaching at the University of Michigan, he said, I'm gonna coach a rec league football team because I retired and I wanna give back to my community. That would be better for society than somebody who says, my son's not getting any playing time, why don't I coach your team? Right, it's better.

Shawn (55:17.087)
Yes, but if 40 years ago he would have had that attitude, there'd have been zero, like very little service that had been rendered because he wouldn't have had the experiences and the influence and all of that to later on be able to give that public service, right?

Matt (55:21.166)
But that's an.

Matt (55:27.916)
Yeah.

Right. So what I'm saying is that's what we want. We want people to live full, long, happy careers, doing something productive, and then give back to their community. Or people who say, I don't need to make spend all my time making money. So I'm going to have a career. And then on the side, I'm just going to do public service.

Shawn (55:43.113)
Okay, interesting. Okay.

Shawn (55:49.217)
Wow, wouldn't that be, listen, hey, the first, I don't know about the second option, but the first option you just said, that would be a, wouldn't that be a fascinating cultural, I mean, to me, that's a huge paradigm shift. If, cause I don't think anyone, not a single person has this mindset of I, I'm born, I get my education, I get married, I establish a family, then I get a career going and I hit success so that there's a point where I can give back to my community. I don't think anyone thinks that way, but what a great model.

Matt (56:17.582)
Well, I will tell you, I'll tell you two people who think that way. Bob Bennett, former Senator from Utah. He's the one that described that model to me. Mitt Romney, a child of two different governors thought that way. And.

Shawn (56:18.433)
That would be a great model.

Shawn (56:31.169)
Hmm. You're get all the U-tones are getting mad at you right now, but I'm with you there. I love it.

Matt (56:35.65)
Well, they might not like public servants, but what did Mitt Romney personally gain from any of his time as governor of Massachusetts, as Senator from Utah, as Republican presidential? He already had everything. he wasn't like Trump where he tried to make money for himself along the way. Same with Senator Bennett, same thing. John Curtis from Utah, another one. He's already had his career. He's happy to just serve his country as Senator from the state of Utah.

Shawn (56:44.545)
So yeah, he was already.

Matt (57:03.062)
Not to say that none of them have a self-interested motive, but the idea of public service is something we need to get back to in our country.

Shawn (57:09.685)
That's a great message, Matt, points to you. I'll think about that a lot. No, really, I will. I'll think about it out of time. Not be such a skeptic and a negative. So well done. You beat it. You beat me. You won. I like that. I'm gonna think a lot about that.

Matt (57:14.925)
Okay.

Matt (57:19.948)
Yes! Okay. Well, hey everybody, thanks for joining us this week. We're glad you're with us. Join us again next week.