Matt (00:01.318)
Hello everybody and welcome to the latter day lens. am your host Matt with me as always is Sean and like half of our audience is nowhere to be found. So I'll just start with the mail back. So one, there's so many of these in the mail. In fact, I just got another message from someone, but anyhow, what is with this other every other week crap says somebody from St. George and then another person wrote.

Shawn (00:08.63)
You've done it this time, Matt. Matt, you've done it this time.

Matt (00:29.318)
Your episodes are no longer listed on Amazon Music. So anyhow, lot of listeners have noticed that if you, if you subscribe through Apple podcasts, or if you get the podcast through Apple for through Amazon Music, we haven't had a new episode drop there since November 18th of 2025. Yeah. Yeah, I am.

Shawn (00:47.662)
Yes.

Matt (00:51.438)
I'll talk about it a little bit more in a second, but I was trying this new service. thought, let's do this. It'll help me accomplish some of my goals. And then after I switched over to this service, they, I realized, wait, this is going to mess up our podcast. So I tried to undo it right away and it worked for almost every podcast except for Apple podcasts and Amazon music. And then what happened was Amazon music. still haven't figured it out. Apple podcasts. They created a new podcast. So if you go to

the latter day lens on Apple podcast. There's another one there that has all of our updated episodes, but it doesn't have any of our reviews, it doesn't have anything. And so I've been trying literally Sean for the last like two weeks to try to get Apple to just merge those together. And yeah.

Shawn (01:37.25)
Have you really? That was the longest apology. The most complicated, long apology.

Matt (01:41.362)
OK.

Well, anyhow, this is the other thing I learned, Sean, is customer service has all been formed out to AI. So I've spent so much time chatting with AI bots trying to solve the problem. And then when I get to a person, they're like, this is something I have to forward it way on up. And so I don't know. It's a weekend, right? So we'll see, eventually.

Shawn (02:00.302)
I think you'll find, Matt, that those are some of the best friends that you'll ever have.

Matt (02:04.774)
Yeah. Well, so like big picture and

Shawn (02:10.798)
No, no, really, because they, because AI bots, they like to like confirm you, right? They like to they do. So you're to get a lot of Matt. That's a really great idea. Matt, that's super smart. Matt, you're. Yeah. Yeah. You're just all day long to be like, yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm a good podcast producer.

Matt (02:15.972)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (02:23.46)
You've identified the problem so well. Okay.

Matt (02:32.006)
Yeah, except for that it doesn't solve your problem. So it's kind of annoying in that regard. So I think like, like just to go big picture, big history, kind of what I was trying to do. Like when I, when we first started this podcast, maybe two years ago, are we, I don't know, whenever it was, I had, I used to be really prolific on social media. used to post a lot on like Facebook and Twitter.

And then at some point, I think that I noticed that those social media giants were kind of like, they owned your content. And if they wanted to, they could just delete your page and cancel your page. like in my heart of hearts, I'm a writer. like to, that's usually how I create things. But I was like, it's hard to own content in a written format on those platforms. So was like, I'm going to just, we're just going to do a podcast. Then we own the content.

Shawn (03:22.178)
Yeah, right.

Matt (03:27.39)
And, and I've been super happy with that, but then I thought, started thinking a little bit ago, I should start posting the content from the podcast on social media because I decided that social media has become an angry space with a lot of misinformation. And so I don't have to go on there and post an argument, fight with people. I can just post stuff from our podcast onto social media and then people can interact with it however they want to. But then once it's out there, it's kind of there.

for a long time and people can get uplifting, good information about stuff and so anyhow, I was trying to find a good software package, a good way to like allow me to do that easily so that it doesn't take up a lot of my life and then it created this problem. So I'm sorry listeners.

Shawn (04:13.166)
Do you feel like you've got it solved? Or not yet?

Matt (04:17.094)
I feel like, well, I feel like I've got the part of creating the content solved. Um, but the, bigger issue, no, I don't know. So the other thing, reason I, the other reason I'm saying this is because Sean and I are not going to record podcasts through the end of 2025, cause I'm going on a cruise. But if you want to like interact with us, I'll be posting video content from the podcast and from other shows I've done on social media. And you're welcome to watch it there, consume it there, comment there, participate there.

My Instagram handle is at prof miles, prof underscore miles. I'm easy to find on Facebook. But the other thing is Sean's like Sean and Sam both also, I think have gone through a bit of a transformation since we started the podcast. Like Sean has his own podcast now mission stories podcast. And Sam has his own podcast. Have you seen Sam's podcast, Sean? Yeah, it's called a driving vision. Is that what it's called? No, no.

Shawn (05:10.252)
Yeah, the car one?

Shawn (05:15.148)
Yeah, yeah, it's, most.

Matt (05:17.294)
It's the car dealership guy.

Shawn (05:19.93)
is it? changed it. Well, that, And he's in that industry, the auto industry. So that's, it's a specific one for that, but it's awesome. He's really good at it.

Matt (05:20.92)
Yeah, it's the car dealership guy. Yeah.

Matt (05:28.078)
Yeah, if you're into how to make your car dealership work better, you can find Sam on the Car Dealership Guide podcast.

Shawn (05:32.334)
Well, in bottom line, bottom line here is be patient with us, right? There's nothing changed. Just the producer glitches or the attempt to be a little more efficient has caused a little, few glitches. So be patient with us. We're still here. We're still going to keep producing. Yeah, just a small break, a couple of weeks break for Christmas, but.

Matt (05:53.369)
And all of those Apple podcast people and Amazon music people that we like, wow, look at all these episodes that they've missed since Thanksgiving and they can consume all those old episodes. And, and for you who are listening on the more righteous podcast platforms, nothing will change for you at all, except for that there'll be a little break, right? But come, come watch this stuff on my social. if you want to, if you don't, that's also fine. But so I was having a conversation, Sean, I don't know if I should say who it was with.

Shawn (06:10.254)
Yeah

Shawn (06:15.224)
Yeah.

Matt (06:22.97)
I was having a conversation with somebody and we were talking about how Ariana Grande is thin and how a lot of movie stars are losing weight. And their response to this was, that's because somebody is swiping the memories of movie stars.

Shawn (06:39.758)
What?

Matt (06:42.382)
And I was like, I was looking at everybody else in the conversation to try to see the appropriate reaction, because I didn't want to hurt this person's feelings. But in my head, I was thinking, this is completely and totally insane. And so then I tried to make some kind of joke like, well, so do you think that she forgot about Pete Davidson? And she's lost all of her memories? And they were like, no, no, it's just politically oriented things. And I was like, OK, this is crazy. And.

And so later on after the conversation, because nobody said anything to challenge that information in the conversation. Later after the conversation, like interact with people. I was like, did you think that was as crazy as I thought that was? And everybody was like, yeah, that was legit insane. And I was like, where did this person get that information? And they were like, this person gets almost all of their information from Facebook and Tik Tok. And so this is what's got me concerned now, Sean is like, I wanted to do this podcast that we can have a space.

Shawn (07:30.402)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt (07:36.432)
for people to have discussion about contentious things in a faith promoting way, and so that people could get informed. And so now I'm afraid that everybody who's doing that sort of stuff has left Facebook, and so it's just being consumed with all this weird stuff. Do you think that's true?

Shawn (07:50.412)
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, no doubt, like I, in my opinion, when I look at any social media, which I enjoy and I have my own reasons and purposes for doing it, but I, my skeptical brain says 90 % of it is not true. So if you're gonna, if I'm gonna consume something or believe it, you go do the research first, which by the way, I like that. I don't mind that the social media is full of, like some posts are just blatant lies, right? They'll just put some political thing out there.

that is literally just a blatant lie. And I'd rather live in a society that people have the freedom to do these things as opposed to being constantly, constantly censored by Big Brother. You laugh, I know you're laughing at that. Because it forces me to actually keep using my brain, right? I have to look at anything and before I trust it, I go look at three or four sources. That takes a little time, it doesn't take too much time, it's super easy.

Matt (08:38.458)
Yeah.

Shawn (08:45.56)
But in the end, I've informed myself and actually all those different sources give me a different perspective, so I'm actually able to form a different opinion. So I'm okay with that.

Matt (08:52.646)
But not everybody is like you, Clearly this person I was talking to is not that way.

Shawn (08:56.878)
Well

Yeah, but the problem is less about the social media and it's more about the way we think, right? If I am just going to continue to accept whatever my trusted source tells me, that's probably not, I don't think that's the way God wants us to analyze and think about things.

Matt (09:16.102)
Well, it's a real problem if your trusted source is Facebook. If you know that 90 % of it is false.

Shawn (09:24.942)
But that's the point, it's just a source, so I'm not going to trust it, I'm just going to find the things that I'm interested in and then use it as a catalyst to go research. But scripture is abundantly clear. Even Nephi, looking at his father the prophet, who he trusts completely, Lehi tells him stuff and Nephi goes, I'm not going to take your word for it, I'm going go find out for myself every single time.

Matt (09:26.885)
Yeah.

Matt (09:46.841)
No, that's true. Well, so that's part of my motivation. Like I have been on a long hiatus from Facebook. I only used it to interact with my missionary kids. But that's a lot of the motivation where I'm like, somebody's got to be putting good content out there on the socials. Because if we all abandon that space, then there's nothing left but crazy stuff. OK. OK, well then I'll do that.

Shawn (10:04.952)
Good. Yeah, I think it's a good motive, man. It's good. Yeah, you can trust it. Nice.

Matt (10:12.73)
Hey, speaking of, so I don't even know what to make of, you know these words better than I do, Sean, but there's words like influencer and like YouTube master, I don't know. There's these, okay, anyhow. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced its new Young Men's General Advisory Board.

For people who don't know, this is the group of men that help run the Young Men's Organization. So there's a presidency that are all general authorities, and then there's this general board, and they're just individuals who volunteer their time to help with the Young Men's Program.

Last time around I thought it was interesting they had John by the way and they had Brad Wilcox both in the Young Men's General Presidency and I thought those two are famous for like putting together EFY type of events So I was like this is interesting like they put together Fsy under the last Young Men's Presidency So like if you were to sort of read the tea leaves or something new going on because in the new Young Men's General Board of the 14 people that have been called five of them are so

media influencers or they're like digital communications social media kind of

Shawn (11:23.566)
Let's go with your original YouTube masters. I love it.

Matt (11:28.358)
Anyhow, the only one I actually knew was Outdoor Boys.

man that guy's famous at BYU-Idaho. All of the young men here love outdoor boys, but then there's an Instagram feed that Sean showed me that, so one of them I guess used to work with Mr. Beast and they've all got experience in the social media content creation space. So the question is, what does this change mean for the future of the young men's organization in the church,

Shawn (11:41.524)
Really?

Shawn (11:52.695)
Yeah, yeah.

Shawn (11:58.894)
I mean, I don't think it's a big, huge monumental change, but I think it's really amazing and wonderful because what I really enjoy in my later years as I'm realizing, right, those of us who are faithful to the Lord and the church and we're dedicated disciples, we're always constantly trying, how do we better serve? How do we better become a Christian? How do we better do these things? And in my later years, I'm learning, you know, think, right, when we as men, especially, receive the

the priesthood, we make a covenant to magnify our callings. And oftentimes I just thought, okay, well, whatever the Lord calls me to, I'm going to magnify that. That's part of my commitment to my covenant. But I think I'm learning that God calls us also to do things outside of the hierarchical, you know, technical process. And sometimes, like in scripture, it says, we don't need to be called to be called. Sometimes you just should proactively go out and do.

Now that's what I like about this group, right? Like Anthony Sweatt, he's on the group and I love this guy. In fact, Anthony Sweatt speaks, teaches better about the temple than anything I've ever heard in my entire life. Any of you who want to learn about the temple, go follow Anthony Sweatt, read his books. It is so good. It's just absolutely powerful. Anyway, but he wasn't called to write a book about the temple. He wasn't called to teach so powerfully about the temple through some

Matt (12:55.045)
Yeah.

Matt (13:09.274)
Hmm.

Shawn (13:24.77)
you know, formal technical calling. He just proactively wanted to do good and was passionate about it and loved it. And so he did it. So I like that these, I like that there should be more, do you get what I'm saying? Like proactive calls instead of just wait, I'm going to wait until someone calls me to do some good. I like that the board is made up of guys who are just like, I'm just serving, I'm just doing what I want to do. I'm just doing what I'm spiritually passionate about. And now it's gained influence and now they can be.

Matt (13:36.762)
Yeah.

Matt (13:50.042)
Yeah, if you.

Well, and if you think about evangelicals, right? They don't have callings in evangelical churches. People just feel called to do stuff, right? And a little bit we don't have that as much in our church because we do have this hierarchical structure where you're called to do something you probably don't want to do. And so then it makes us more hesitant to develop our own talents and skills and abilities. I do like that. The other thing I like about it, Sean, is when I was young and I looked at the general authority

in the church. They were all business owners like CEOs or something like that. They were lawyers. They were medical doctors or they had gone to like a lot of school and college and things like that. And I like the like

Like it's setting this example for young people today saying there are lots of different paths you can choose to for your life and they're all perfectly okay. And if you love making like the outdoor boys guy, he's a lawyer by trade, right? And he's like, yeah, yeah. He went to George Mason law school and practice law and he's like, I hate this. And so he's like, I enjoy making videos of the outdoors. And so he just does it and right.

Shawn (14:49.71)
it is.

Shawn (14:58.158)
What's fascinating also about it is like his stuff I've only watched a little bit of but he's he's not mingling in religion with his influencer. I mean YouTube master Kung Fu stuff. He's just he's just doing his thing and he's gained a big big following and influence but not for religious reasons, which is interesting. Whereas Anthony Sweat his following is all because of his non-official calling right of teaching the temple or just preaching the gospel and

Matt (15:07.333)
Yeah.

Matt (15:27.216)
What do you think about, yeah, go ahead. What do you think, what do think about this idea, Sean? I wonder if the church has decided that digital content, media content is better than manuals. And if we have five out of the 14 people on the board, people who have demonstrated expertise in creating YouTube content.

on the board, then maybe the young men's program could change a little bit. We could, instead of having these manuals, right, what if there was like an outdoor boys stuff about for young men's activities and things you could go do. it's like, because one of the biggest challenges the church has is translating all of those materials into other languages. But YouTube's going to do that for you for free, right? And YouTube's going to host all that content for you for free.

Shawn (15:54.894)
Yeah, that's true.

Shawn (16:11.79)
interesting.

Matt (16:16.514)
So what if like part of it, like what if just like Brad Wilcox and John, by the way, helped them launch FSY into a successful thing, because they had experience doing that sort of thing. What if this is also going to help the young men's organization become a more, I guess it'd be maybe a more modern young men's organization that's not printed manuals, but it's video content that could be consumed globally.

Shawn (16:16.526)
Yeah?

Shawn (16:38.286)
Don't get me started on printed manuals. I've got strong opinions on that. But maybe, yeah, maybe. I watched the last young men's presidency, general presidency, make an attempt to have a really strong social presence. All the time, those three guys were standing in front of a camera and posting on social media, and they're talking. And was it natural? Not really. Were they used to it? Not really.

But good for them for understanding and realizing that this is where kids are engaging, so they've got to try to engage. Was it effective? I don't know. I mean, it was a start, right? But I think this new approach, yeah, is probably progression, right? Because now you have a board of guys who actually know what people want to engage with when getting in front of a camera. And so it's going to help that. So yeah, I think you're right.

Matt (17:25.254)
Do think some of it is trying to meet the youth where they are? The youth are increasingly just on those spaces, yeah. Whenever I mention outdoor boys at BYU Idaho, all of the guys at BYU Idaho go crazy. They love that content so much.

Shawn (17:28.568)
Yeah.

100%,

Shawn (17:42.402)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (17:42.627)
And the guy's kind of nerdy, right? If you were to produce the show and say, okay, this is what we're gonna produce, you would imagine that it would be a flop. But for whatever reason, that channel really resonates with people and it really works for some reason.

Shawn (18:00.44)
Yeah, I mean, he knows how to create content that kids or people want to see. That's probably what is needed, right, in that young men's organization. Yeah, I think it's a great move, man. You do need people who know how to create content. Like you said, maybe in days past, what the leadership of the church needed was lawyers and financial experts. Well, that's worked, right? That paid off. But now that that's settled, now what they need is how do you engage with people in a meaningful and purposeful way? So, yeah, it's good.

Matt (18:08.516)
Yeah.

Matt (18:21.37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (18:29.338)
Yeah. Hey, Sean, if they ask me for ideas of people who are YouTube masters, I'm going to give them your name. I'll say, Sean is a YouTube master. He knows what he's doing. Yeah. You don't even need a master's degree to be a master, in my opinion. All right. Next up.

Shawn (18:30.435)
That's good.

Shawn (18:35.182)
I don't think they'd ever use the fake term that you brought up, but I like being called a master. Thanks.

You

Matt (18:49.37)
There is a Catholic parish in Dedham, Massachusetts. They are defying the archdiocese of Boston by maintaining an anti-immigration and customs enforcement nativity scene that replaces the Holy Family with a sign reading, ICE WAS HERE, arguing it is meant to evoke dialogue despite criticism from church leaders and immigration officials. Imagine, Sean, this were a ward in the church defying the wishes of an area presidency, because I know that you love

Federalism when it comes to government. So my question is does this same principle apply in the church? if there was because a bishop has the keys for his Well, you know the yeah the idea of local control right like yeah, so the area presidency might say something but if a bishop in his ward is like what my ward needs is an anti-immigrant anti-ice

Shawn (19:28.846)
The spiritual of federalism. Yeah, the idea that... Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Matt (19:44.62)
nativity scene right outside the church building. Would you support like a bishop's doing that against the wishes of like an area president?

Shawn (19:52.59)
What a great way, dude, it's a kind of a goofy example. I don't know, no, it's good. What a great question though. I love it. Like the essence of the question is, yeah, if those of us who rant and rave about no strong central government, right? Give the power to the people and separate it into smaller local governments and there's more variety. Well, am I a hypocrite? Because then my church is a strong, probably the strongest central government, right? Nothing almost, right?

Matt (19:59.324)
Yeah.

Matt (20:19.152)
Very strong. Yeah.

Shawn (20:20.822)
And so, my hypocrite, and should we apply those principles? Well, I think it's an easy, I mean, I agree to separate the church from the state, and I agree that the church is an organization that you don't manage the same way that you'd manage a government. Not even close. Not even close! Give me one principle that says you should.

Matt (20:36.728)
What? Okay. Sean, the kingdom of God on earth, right? When Jesus comes again, the church and the state will be merged into one entity. So the management principles that you use to govern the kingdom of God on earth can be used to manage all the other kinds of kingdoms that exist on earth. The same principles.

Shawn (20:59.598)
I don't think so, but I think Matt, the reason that the Lord had such a involved hand in establishing the modern American political system is because that's the best chance that we have in the absence of the Lord on the earth to operate in a free way and to exercise our religion. I don't think this is gonna be the way it's run when the Savior comes. I think he's gonna run it the way that it's supposed to be run.

and it'll be way more efficient. I don't think the model is the Lord's church should be run the way that our government is run. That's not the goal. It's gonna be opposite.

Matt (21:28.666)
No way.

Matt (21:36.924)
The

I think that, okay, we're going to take that scripture, right? And he gave some prophets and he gave some apostles and he gave some evangelists and he gave some teachers. And that's the whole body of Christ analogy, right? That everybody has their role and their responsibility and the things that they're supposed to do. And as everybody does those things that they're supposed to do, it comes together to create the body of Christ. And so I think that in its ideal form, the church's organizational structure is federalism.

that you have your call, you have your role, you have your responsibility. And don't you think it's good leadership in the church that if you give a person a calling, let's say as a primary president, to let them operate in their sphere of influence with almost complete autonomy, who am I to tell them how to run the primary?

Shawn (22:25.422)
Well, okay, I didn't know you'd take this stance. This is fascinating and interesting, there's a couple of differences. I've always looked at why, at the church's approach at policy and how it differs from doctrine. And it's a fascinating topic of discussion to me. I understand the function of policy. I understand the function of manuals and of rules. I understand that function. And I know why

Most of my experiences with area authority, general authorities, is they are toe the line. They are, have rules, keep those rules. And I almost like I'm realizing, oh, I get it, I'm getting it. You have to run it a big, it's a really big organization. You have to have those rules to keep things on track. The nice thing is though, when I see a ward or a stake deviate a little bit or do things on their own,

Matt (23:03.931)
Yeah.

Shawn (23:21.975)
It never compromises or at least it's super hard to compromise what really is steady, which is doctrine, which is different from policy. Okay, but that's not an argument for federalism.

Matt (23:28.262)
Right, right. So then, well, so what my experience is that the people in the area of presidencies are very, very rigid and strict on policy for whatever reason. I don't know, maybe that's what they're told as they're calling. But.

Shawn (23:43.704)
They're maintaining order, right? I'm sure that's what they're told. They have to maintain order and consistency.

Matt (23:48.079)
Okay, but as an area president, I have a friend, like the area president came to him and he's like, this person and this bishopric needs to shave their beard. And this person was like, I'm not gonna tell them to shave their beard. And he's like.

Shawn (23:57.058)
Yeah.

Matt (24:02.018)
Next time I see them, they better have their beard shaven. And then they see him again. He's like, I told you to get that person to shave their beard. Why do they still have a beard? And they're like, look, I'm not just going to do everything you tell me to do. there's not doctrine that you have to shave your beard. And whatever it is policy that makes you feel so strongly about that, don't as a local leader, I don't have to do everything exactly as you tell me to do it. You have your role and your responsibility. Your role is to tell us all to obey and fall in line. But as a bishop with keys,

Shawn (24:04.728)
Yeah.

Shawn (24:17.07)
you

Matt (24:31.752)
I have an obligation to my flock. I have an obligation to my congregation and I'm gonna function. I'm gonna exercise my keys. Then I don't need the area president telling me everything to do all the time. And if I receive counsel and guidance that I feel is from Heavenly Father in alignment with my keys, then I'm gonna say to that area president, you can release me if you want to release me, but I'm not going to do exactly everything you say.

Shawn (24:37.037)
Shawn (24:54.446)
Okay, you cut.

Are you calling that, that's your example of the federalist idea? Federal, federal, okay, I'm in then. I'm in, you've convinced me. If that's what you're describing.

Matt (25:01.21)
Yeah.

Matt (25:07.588)
Well, what is this about? Go ahead.

Shawn (25:07.598)
Like bucking the system over dumb things like how much facial hair you have, I'm in, I'm in. But hang on, the reason I initially rejected it is because the example you gave was, should a church in San Diego be able to put up a big sign in the front of the church that is promoting ICE? No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Matt (25:15.014)
Well

Matt (25:31.918)
No, a sign. No. Should they be able to have in their display of the nativity in front of the church building? Should they be able to put a political message in it if they feel that has

Shawn (25:40.91)
Yeah, I don't think so. See, that's the stronger policy that I think deviates from the entire mission of the church, right? The entire mission, and the council that has been so clear, which I think is doctrinal based, which is separate the two. Separate society and religion, or government and religion. I think it's doctrine based, don't you think? Beards are not doctrine based. Oh, you don't think it is, okay.

Matt (26:02.586)
No, I don't think separation of church and state is a doctrine. Yeah, I don't think that.

Shawn (26:06.158)
that's right, you don't. You think that we're supposed to be building that which Christ will adopt when he gets here as opposed to, no, we're living this separate thing. When Christ comes, he's changing it all up.

Matt (26:19.086)
Yeah, of course he's not gonna, right, that's right. We're trying to build the kingdom of God on the earth right now. Yeah.

Shawn (26:21.506)
Fascinating. But not in... Wow, that's a future topic in discussion. That's fascinating. Okay, okay.

Matt (26:28.294)
Yeah, that's a future topic we can talk about. But all I'm saying, Sean, is there's no difference to me. If a ward says we want to have an Easter display and we're going to invite the community to come and see our Easter display, we would welcome that. We would say that's a wonderful, proactive, missionary, whatever idea. And if the bishop says, and in this Easter display, I feel that it's appropriate for our ward to replace Jesus with an anti-ice banner, whatever, right? Like that's the bishop.

Shawn (26:56.494)
you are feeding our friend Levi right now. He is so excited. Levi, please calm down. No, but that's really, can you pick any side? Because

Matt (26:57.368)
It's his ward?

You can pick any side. Conservatives do the same. Okay, the fact that we have a white Jesus all over the place, right? The white Jesus is not historically accurate. I look at the church videos that they produce for the Book of Mormon. I'm like, this feels like Utahns dressed up in weird clothes, acting, right? We're okay with that. Whatever.

Shawn (27:13.742)
Good point. Great point.

Shawn (27:23.874)
Three point creeps

huh huh

Matt (27:28.506)
The intent behind it is to share the gospel, so it doesn't have to match what I think it should look like all the time.

Shawn (27:35.17)
Yeah, until Matt, until instead of someone putting an anti ice message up at Christmas, they put up.

Matt (27:42.5)
I don't know, put Trump in there. Put Trump in the place of Jesus.

Shawn (27:45.233)
you don't really believe that, do you?

Matt (27:47.362)
If the bishop says to do it, I'm not going to tell the bishop no, right? If the bishop and the ward council feel like this is the appropriate thing to do at the church to share the gospel or whatever.

Shawn (27:54.688)
Wow.

Why, so why are you big on federalism for church but not federalism for our government?

Matt (28:02.342)
Hey, that's the next topic Sean. That's the next topic. What a great lead-in.

Shawn (28:05.774)
Wow, that was fast. That's fascinating, man.

Matt (28:10.7)
Okay, so Bonneville County is in the state of Idaho. I just saw this on the news yesterday. That's why we're talking about it. So Bonneville County Coroner's Office has investigated six kratom-related deaths in the last 18 months, prompting an urgent public health warning. Four of these fatalities were determined to be caused solely by the acute drug toxicity of Mitragynein, kratom's primary active compound.

The FDA and the federal government prohibit the use of kratom, but Idaho state law allows it to be sold in smoke and vape shops and even convenience stores. Families of these victims would like legislation regulating the sale of kratom in Idaho. My question, Sean, is this an example of federalism gone bad? First of all, have you heard of kratom before? I'd never heard of it before I heard this story. Okay.

Shawn (28:56.302)
So let me help make... No, I've never heard of any of this. And when you say the FDA and the federal government prohibit the use of kratom, so this is an example of a state probably once they get sued for this, this will have to work its way up to the Supreme Court. No.

Matt (29:06.0)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (29:15.95)
No, this is the same as marijuana, right? Marijuana, according to the federal government, is illegal. You cannot use marijuana in national parks. You can't get a license from the FDA to sell marijuana. But states have passed their own laws saying marijuana is legal in our state, even though it's illegal on the federal level. So, Kratom is like that.

Shawn (29:39.598)
But if marijuana or kratom ever got up to the Supreme Court, wouldn't the Supreme Court say, well, there is a federal law that would trump the state law? Or no, do they look at that on a case-by-case basis?

Matt (29:52.251)
Yeah, it's hard to say like what the court right now would do about that. They've had different ways of handling it in the past. At the moment, it seems like the Supreme Court is willing to let states make their own laws, even when it puts people's health at risk, sort of like with abortion right now, right?

Shawn (30:06.732)
Okay, so when you're saying the FDA and the federal government prohibit the use of kratom, they also are allowing states to make their own decisions regarding kratom.

Matt (30:14.82)
Yeah, so I could not apply to the FDA and say I want to have FDA approval for this drug that kratom is the active ingredient. They would say the evidence, if you go to the FDA website, says the evidence, there's not enough evidence to suggest that it's a beneficial chemical that can be useful. But.

Shawn (30:23.769)
they're not going to support that. They're not going to support that.

Shawn (30:34.488)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Matt (30:36.528)
But what that means is in the state of Idaho, can say, hey, kratom is this herb from the Southeast Asia. And if you have fibromyalgia or if you have depression or if you have sore muscles, take this and it'll make you feel better. And in the state of Idaho, I can legally make those claims and sell it with no legal consequences.

Shawn (30:52.91)
So this is not an example of federalism gone bad. This is an example of how federalism works. One state, no, no, no, because you just said it yourself, there are pros and cons of kratom. There are,

Matt (31:00.102)
Because it's killing people.

Matt (31:07.844)
No, there's no pros. The federal government says there are no pros of CREDIM, which is why I can't get it approved from them.

Shawn (31:14.103)
You just gave an example of how kratom is going to help fibromyalgia or something.

Matt (31:17.4)
I'm saying that a person could say that in their advertising, it doesn't make it true. Yeah, I can legally make those claims, even though there's no evidence to support those claims.

Shawn (31:21.198)
that's what you're saying. You're saying, yeah, but are you saying there's

I don't know anything about Kratom. Are there any upsides? Are there any proven upsides or claimed upsides? Or is it literally just a...

Matt (31:34.15)
If I go to the FDA, and the link's in the show notes, if I go to the FDA, no.

Shawn (31:39.054)
Okay, I have to take your word. So in your mind, Kratom is just a recreational feel-good drug that has no benefits, correct?

Matt (31:47.895)
in my mind, cause I've only done a little bit of research on it. In my mind, Kratom is the latest fad where you can say, take this and it's going to help you with the whole host of things that people say, I'm, I'm depressed. Like if you just say, what, I want to sell this, right. Then they say, take this and it'll help with that. But in my mind, it's probably an addictive substance and it probably doesn't do much to help you, but it certainly can be fatal.

Shawn (32:14.018)
This is where federalism helps our society because now you get an experiment, right? You get someone like a place like Idaho who goes like, we're going to let this be and let's see what happens. And if enough damage happens, then the people clearly, we can look and go, wow, it's chaos there in Idaho. This is harming everyone. Now I know, right? Whereas if it's illegal in Utah and you're not having all these problems, look, it's good to have the experiment on both sides.

I'm sure there are examples, Matt, where the federal government was proven wrong because a state government allowed something. No, or is daddy government always right, Matt? you love?

Matt (32:52.246)
I'm just saying people, have six fatalities in 18 months and you always tell me that if the company is doing something bad, you sue them and then they go out of business. You can't sue these companies because it's legal, right? What they're doing is completely legal. So there's no laws.

Shawn (33:02.754)
Yes. Well, that was my

Shawn (33:09.41)
There could, Matt, could be a civil, if they can get enough evidence to show that the death was caused by Kratom that this vaping company sold, a civil lawsuit could absolutely take them down and cause that change.

Matt (33:21.19)
You have to show that they knew that it was gonna happen. So if they don't know that death is a possibility and you can't...

Shawn (33:29.326)
But that's, well, but it's easy also to, probably I'm assuming, show that there's gotta be some, right, now there's evidence, right? Six people have died from it. There's the evidence that people are dying from it.

Matt (33:40.516)
And in the last 18 months, they've probably made a ton of cash and they're going to move all that cash to some offshore account and start another business name. And then when

Shawn (33:43.618)
Yeah, but they're gonna lose.

But they're gonna, but what good is their money if they're in prison because they knew it was killing people and they kept putting it out there. And a civil lawsuit started the ball rolling. Yeah, but it starts the ball rolling. So then the people vote in Idaho to make Cretinine illegal. And now it's out of the civil lawsuit realm. It's into the legal lawsuit realm now.

Matt (33:53.816)
A civil lost... A civil lawsuit can't put you in prison.

Matt (34:09.442)
Okay, well, so then at that point, then they say, okay, it's against the law in Idaho. Let's move on to Mississippi and let's complain about Idaho and big brother government telling us what we can't do. There's no evidence that they, it was just a bunch of out of state deep pocket political action committees that made it illegal in Idaho.

Shawn (34:15.618)
Yes.

Shawn (34:25.058)
We can't, I just think, Matt, we can't as citizens be victims of everything, right? I have to be accountable that if I'm gonna vape, I gotta know what's in that vape. And if Kratom is in there and there's X percent chance that I'm gonna die and I still choose to do it, there's gotta be some accountability from our citizenry, right?

Matt (34:43.814)
But these people are mostly children, right? You're selling it over the counter, next to energy drinks. Like these people that are dying are of an age where, again, I don't want to victimize them, but they don't necessarily have the skills or the experience or the knowledge to say,

Shawn (34:53.934)
Okay, so.

Shawn (34:59.766)
It's illegal for kids to vape. So if a kid underage vaped and the parents are not involved in that, then maybe there's some liability on the parents. If these kids are underage, the parents are responsible to make sure that these kids aren't dying because they're vaping. That's illegal.

Matt (35:15.012)
I don't know if they're vaping it or I don't know how they're consuming it. just, I just feel really sad, Sean, I feel really sad for these parents whose children have died taking a chemical that nobody knew. You and I have never even heard of it. Like if my kid came home and they're like, Hey, I started taking this kratom. I did all my research online. There's no known side effects that are negative and it makes me feel better. It makes my pain go away. As a dad, I'd be like,

Shawn (35:39.214)
Go ahead, what would you be like? Go ahead, what would you be like?

Matt (35:42.022)
I'd slap him in the face and say, does this hurt more? How does this?

Shawn (35:49.292)
I like that you have such an open relationship with your child that they casually walk in and go, hey, I've been inhaling this new drug because I did my research. I like that you guys have that relationship, Matt.

Matt (36:00.419)
Sean, thought for sure I would get- It's fascinating to me that on the church you don't love federalism so much, but in Idaho when kids are dying, we're gonna stick to this principle of federal- but if it's like a Trump-themed, like, nativity-

Shawn (36:13.678)
Don't you think that there's a deeper problem if children are dying from a substance that they're taking? Why don't the teachers know about it? Why don't the parents know about it? Why can't we prevent those things? Where's the communication? Don't you think it's a bigger issue than should the government make something legal or illegal? Why are people consuming things that are hurting them? Why don't we?

Matt (36:39.108)
Because the, I'll tell you this to circle back to what we were saying originally, because they go on Facebook and 90 % of the information they consume is false information and they don't have a good source telling them, well.

Shawn (36:48.438)
And there's the bigger problem.

Nah, that's the bigger problem. They don't need a source. They need creative, critical thinking. Why aren't we, a school and a government and parents, teaching our kids to be critical thinkers, to not trust everything they are taught or they see? But instead, Matt, your wonderful government puts them in school and teaches them, shut your brain off. I took it in a weird place. But school does do that. School does say, are facts. You have to believe these facts. We don't train our kids to be critical thinkers as much as we think we do.

Matt (36:58.15)
What?

Matt (37:13.279)
No, it's fine.

Shawn (37:22.286)
And so now

Matt (37:22.33)
What we're doing in Idaho, what we're doing in Idaho is saying, you don't have to go to school. You can be homeschooled and we'll give all that money to your parents and they can buy a Netflix subscription for you and they can take you to the zoo if you want to. And at no point will they ever say, Kratom is bad because the parents don't even know. They're just watching Netflix and they're, I mean, I don't know, Sean. I feel like, I feel like just making something illegal sends a very strong message and it gets.

Shawn (37:47.0)
I like, you've been very consistent with that. You believe that the law is a tool to teach people morality. You've been very consistent with that for a long time. And I don't know, man, I'm on the fence with that, right? Like, don't want my kids to think that if they don't put their seatbelt on and they drive 10 feet, that they are sinning, they're immoral, right?

Matt (37:55.152)
Yes, that's right.

Yeah.

Matt (38:09.19)
I like for them to feel that way because they're safer. They're safer in their assumptions, right? It's an assumption that makes them safe.

Shawn (38:16.834)
But you've tricked them to make a decision. You've tricked them. And you've used guilt to make them be safer. That's not good policy.

Matt (38:21.733)
Yeah.

Matt (38:26.978)
At least they're not dying. the idea that a parent or an individual would use guilt and manipulation to get young people to do what they're supposed to do is as old as time. It's as old as time.

Shawn (38:36.59)
It doesn't mean it's right, it doesn't mean it's good. Jeez. It's just the oldest time. You know what else is oldest time? Killing your brother to get his land. It's his oldest time, so we should be doing it.

Matt (38:42.672)
Alright, here's the big question.

prostitution. That's right.

And if it's not against the law, then let's let people try it for a while and find out if it's good or bad All right, here's the big question the economist I put a link in the show notes that's ungated But I think there's a limit on how many people can click on it and see the article for free, but it's okay they ranked the world's top economies in 2025 and United States comes in at number 16 best economy in the world. I think number one is Portugal, but

Shawn (39:21.336)
Really?

Matt (39:22.382)
Yeah, Cuba? No, Israel is like number three in the world for 2025.

So the results I think are interesting because they don't fit a simple socialist versus capitalist economy explanation. Instead, each country's inflation and growth are mostly shaped by how much the government regulates prices, how independent the central bank is, and how sensitive the country is to global economic changes. Countries with more regulation often have stable, low inflation, but slower growth,

Whereas more market-driven countries see prices change more quickly, which can create bigger swings in inflation, but they also create steady economic growth, emerging or heavily managed economies usually show the biggest inflation changes and faster but less predictable growth. So in short,

The differences in economic performance come from the structure of the economic system, not from the ideology of the government or the people running the government. So this is the question. Since ideology like capitalism and socialism and all that stuff doesn't really explain economic outcomes,

Is it helpful or morally appropriate to judge economies through these kinds of labels at all? Maybe it's better to just focus on the real policies, the structures and choices that actually shape people's lives instead of relying on the broad ideological categories that do not describe economic reality. Is it Sean morally wrong to call anyone a capitalist, a socialist, a communist or a Marxist?

Shawn (41:03.822)
Okay, that's a great question. I have a qualifying question before I can give my opinion if Any of those ideologies was ever implemented in its purity? Would you say that that? We we could answer this differently the answer would be clearer like if we had a pure capitalist pure capitalist example and a pure socialist example would we then be able to say conclusively

Okay, now we can see if that works or doesn't work or if it affects the economy. You don't think so. Why?

Matt (41:38.971)
because there's different sizes of countries.

There's different reliance countries have on other countries for trade and things like that. Right. So for example, let's take, let's take one of those Caribbean Island countries, right. St. Martin's, if you're St. Martin's and you're an Island country and you adopt a a hundred percent capitalist model, it's you're there's too many external forces that are going to influence economic growth in your country. Right. The same thing. If I was in another one, I went all communist. There's too many other four.

Shawn (42:07.406)
Okay, okay, okay, makes sense.

Matt (42:12.552)
and we're in a global economy so the people in my country are still trading with people in other countries and that's all the stuff that stuff matters so much more than like what that ideology is.

Shawn (42:21.782)
Okay. Okay. So, so then here's my answer. Thank you for clarifying. I, I, if we're saying that a form of capitalism mixed with all these other complicated elements, not pure because there's so many factors and, and, and versions of socialism mixed with all these other factors has been abundantly applied. We have plenty of history to look at it. And if we're allowed to judge them on not their pure application,

but include all these weird other factors, then I just think the bottom line is this. Applied capitalism in its messy form has helped more people by far improve their lives than any other system, any other idea, the principles of capitalism have done it. And applied socialism and communism in their impurities, even mixed, has always removed human rights and has always tanked economies. Soviet Union.

Matt (43:20.484)
Not true. Not true.

Shawn (43:21.194)
Mao's China, Soviet Union, Mao's China, Cuba, Venezuela. Give me more examples. Maybe I'm wrong. What else? Spain is socialist right now? Okay. But those aren't, no, that's, Spain, all of those you just mentioned are capitalism with like safety nets for Medicare or for, that's not socialism. They are capitalist societies.

Matt (43:26.598)
Spain.

Very socialist. Belgium, Denmark, France.

Matt (43:48.612)
I mean, they're very socialist society. Well, mean, well, so that's why I'm saying it's a morally wrong thing to do. That's why I'm just like we would say.

Shawn (43:51.394)
DONE!

Shawn (43:55.086)
because there's no clarity, because nothing fits, none of these fit the exact, well that's why I initially asked, does it have to be a pure form of the thing in order for us to even have the discussion?

Matt (44:05.54)
Sean, you fight labels on everything else. You hate labels. And these are labels that are not even helpful at all. Because like you said, you will not find a pure form of government that does any of these things anywhere in the world. Yeah. So all that happens then is politicians use these labels to manipulate voters.

Shawn (44:08.268)
Yeah. Yeah, I do.

Shawn (44:20.174)
purely. That's right. That's right.

Shawn (44:28.492)
That's true. Absolutely. Yeah

Matt (44:30.18)
And so they're either saying, I'm this, so to get you to like them and trust them, or they're saying, and so is that, to get you to dislike them.

Shawn (44:37.038)
I suit your saying. I suit your saying. The use of these labels is manipulative. It's propaganda. You know who it is, Matt? Saul Alinsky. It's Saul Alinsky, right? What's that book called? The Rules for Radicals. The playbook in the 60s, and he was extremely liberal, and his whole playbook was, yeah, pick a word, create meaning behind it, create an enemy in opposition to that group or word.

Matt (44:50.022)
It is, yeah, sure. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shawn (45:06.976)
And you can use propaganda to rally people onto your side, whether it's good or truth or whatever. And yeah, I agree with you then. It's an evil thing. But I can talk about, instead of saying you're a capitalist or I'm a capitalist, I can say, I believe in the principles of a free market and a free society. And now I'm arguing for capitalism without putting the label on it that's not really that accurate. Or I can say, Matt, I don't agree that

Matt (45:24.39)
Okay, yeah, that's fine.

Shawn (45:34.734)
I think that property rights is a God-given gift. And so the ideas of socialism are bad. It's unprincipled, right? Without saying you're a socialist.

Matt (45:44.869)
Well, so that's why you sent me that clip from Spencer Cox talking on Instagram where he's saying that most people agree on the really contentious issues. The things that you said, if you said, believe in free market principles.

90 % of Democrats, 90 % of Republicans, and almost all independents agree with that statement. We believe in free market principles, and we believe in government intervention when it makes sense. But if you ask a Republican, what do Democrats think about the economy, they're going to say, they're socialists, they're communists, they're going to pick the extreme examples of that and then apply that to the entire Democratic Party. And then it divides people.

Shawn (46:17.676)
Yeah, exactly. Yep.

Shawn (46:23.502)
All right, you've totally convinced me. Yep, it's immorally cheapen the issue down to a Saul Alinsky style label in order to just create an enemy against that label. And socialism, capitalism, all these buzzwords, you've convinced me. Yep.

Matt (46:41.338)
That's awesome, Sean. We're gonna have that be the final word this week. That was so good. Hey, listener.

Shawn (46:44.046)
What if what what if Matt what if every podcast episode we go through our five top four or five topics and Without responding I just go you've convinced me would this podcast be 20 minutes long If everyone I was like, good. I'd good point Matt. You've convinced me you'd be like sweet Let's go to the next one. Is that how it works?

Matt (46:57.092)
You

Matt (47:03.962)
I don't think so. It's just that there's nothing else to talk about on the big question, right? Like if you say you've convinced me, like if we've come to the same position, then it's like, still argue for the thing you no longer believe, Sean. That would be disingenuous. Yeah. We could have ended on you've convinced me, but Sean was right. We should talk about like why I can, I don't know.

Shawn (47:08.746)
Okay, good,

Shawn (47:17.866)
Okay, good point. Good point. Good point.

Matt (47:29.158)
Hey listeners who've been with us all through the brief hiatus, thank you for staying with us. Just know we're gonna not record episodes through the end of the year, but our 150th episode is gonna drop in January of 2026 and we're excited to have you with us. We're gonna do something, something huge for 150th episode. It's definitely.

Shawn (47:45.486)
That'll be a big one.

Shawn (47:49.868)
Yes. What is that called? That's a centennial bite. What is that called?

Matt (47:54.392)
It's a sesquicentennial, a sesquicentennial, but it can't be centen, is it? It's a sesquicentennial episode.

Shawn (48:01.646)
I'm sure our smart listeners are going to tell us what to actually call that, but the Latter-day Land sesquiquintennial episode.

Matt (48:09.157)
And we're going to start with a Marvel, do you remember that hymn they wrote for the sesquicentennial of the pioneers? Faith in Every Footstep. We're going to lead with faith in every footstep on our sesquicentennial celebration, January 2026. Talk to you guys then.

Shawn (48:13.806)
A marvelous work is a...