Matt (00:01.296)
Hey everybody and welcome to The Latter Day Lens. It is so good to be with you this week. I am your host, Matt, and with me today is Sean, and you guys, wait for it, wait for it, Levi's with us. So good to have you, Levi. Yeah. Levi just spent a little bit of time praising me about my book that's coming out soon, and so I'm in a very good mood because if Levi likes something, listeners, you don't know this. Like before I ever met Levi,

Levi (00:12.748)
Bum ba da bum, hey!

Shawn (00:14.518)
Yeah.

Matt (00:29.872)
I heard the legend of Levi. So like in my mind, if Levi likes something, it means it's really, really good. So anytime Levi is happy, it fills me with joy. I don't know. don't know if our listeners chase Levi's praise the way that I do. He's like the father that never is happy enough with his son. You're like, please daddy, please say something nice. Anytime Levi is happy, I'm like, woo, I did something good.

Shawn (00:37.492)
Amen!

Levi (00:41.39)
Well, I he's lost all credibility. OK.

Shawn (00:43.331)
That's an amen right there.

Levi (00:59.372)
Yeah, man, I think I love the work you do. I loved your first book. I'm excited for the second book. Yeah.

Matt (01:06.594)
Awesome. Thanks. Well, we got some stuff in the mail bag. First, one listener writes in, say, this speaking of the last episode, this was really hard to listen to because Linda's audio was so bad. I love having female voices represented, but can we all pitch in and get her a better mic or a more reliable internet? It was super patchy. I just want to say I take full responsibility for that. This is why Sean said Matt has learned nothing. no, that wasn't why. Anyhow.

We were like, we could sense that Linda was having some audio trouble before we started recording. And we spent some time trying to like work out the kinks and, and Sean was like, well, Matt's the producer. If he says it's fine, it's fine. I was like, it's good. This is good. And Linda was like,

Shawn (01:50.605)
Well, and to add to that, I think your mantra in life to everything is, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll work out. It'll be fine. That's your mantra in life.

Matt (01:57.168)
you

Yeah. My children learn not to believe me when I say that. Like when they were younger, they thought I was right when I said it's all going to be fine. But I do remember I was rock climbing and my wife is about one third of my weight. So I'm rock climbing and she's belaying me, which means she's the one that's holding me in case I fall. She's the one that's going to hold my weight. And I, I'm not into, this is why Levi is already laughing. I'm not into physics.

Shawn (02:03.843)
Yeah.

Matt (02:28.356)
the way that some people are into physics, physics sort of suggests that maybe someone that's that much smaller couldn't hold you in place if you fell.

Shawn (02:30.038)
jeez.

Shawn (02:36.131)
I don't think you need a physics expert for that.

Matt (02:38.928)
I watched videos on YouTube. Like I was assured everything would be fine. So I'm climbing up this rock, this cliff. I'm about 20 feet up in the air and the rock I'm holding onto breaks and I start falling backwards. And I remember, I remember a few things about this, but I remember looking at my wife thinking, I wonder when she's going to stop me. And then I remember the pain of hitting the ground.

Levi (02:40.174)
You

Matt (03:08.974)
My pants were all torn up. I I fell 20 feet with, I think my wife saved my life by, she has blisters on her hands of her trying to like stop the rope. I started falling right as she was moving. was the old school belay. So she had to like pull it in and then move her hand. And it was right at that moment that I fell. Anyhow, I remember before all of this, people saying, are you sure this is a good idea? And I said, yeah, we're going to be fine. And then I fell and we, the thing is Sean, we were fine. Like,

Levi (03:13.07)
Mmm.

Shawn (03:32.877)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (03:37.784)
My mantra is everything's gonna be fine and sometimes that means you're gonna fall and hurt yourself pretty badly for a while, but we're fine.

Levi (03:45.454)
I thought you were going to tell the story of passing her on the way down.

Matt (03:49.84)
She's going up in the air That's what should have happened she didn't quite have the rope but yeah

Levi (03:52.398)
And then she goes, whoo!

Shawn (03:55.331)
The loony. Leave I was looking for the loony tunes ending, huh? Matt, Matt, you, Matt. Well, I guess your mantra of everything will be fine has worked out for you, I guess. And you didn't die in that situation. But if you would have died, I promise your message would have been it's going to be fine. I'm dead. I'm going to celestial kingdom.

Levi (04:03.256)
Whoop whoop whoop!

Matt (04:15.984)
It's fine. I'm in heaven. Who cares? But for everyone else, I'm sorry that Linda's audio was bad. I take full responsibility for that. At least nobody was hurt physically from that. And I'll do better in the future. Okay, another person wrote in and said, resounding yes to Matt's question from a couple of weeks ago, asking if men have a moral obligation to maintain friendships. Absolutely. I did not get married until I was 30 years old. I noticed a lot in my twenties that men...

that many of the men I was friends with and dated did not have close friends or long-term friendships. I found that interesting. It was a really good sign when I met my husband and he had many long-term friendships that he had maintained over a decade or more. This was one of the things I fell in love with him about and was such a good sign. Men and women need to maintain long-term friendships. It is such a good thing for our health. People who are good at being friends are better spouses and people as well.

Shawn (05:12.065)
What a beautiful message. That's really cool insight.

Matt (05:14.36)
Yeah, I'm still not persuaded that a lot of people have said yes to my question. I'm still not sure that I meant the yes of that, but everybody else is. maybe.

Levi (05:24.642)
Because you don't think it's a moral obligation, you just think it's a nice thing to do or...

Matt (05:29.168)
I'm not even sure it's good. Is it good to have friends? I'm not sure These are the things I'm not sure about

Shawn (05:33.367)
Yeah, Matt. She's just playing. You're just playing playing contrarian right now.

Matt (05:39.182)
Well, obviously I have a podcast with people I've been friends with for decades, but I don't have a lot of people I've been friends with for decades. So that's why I kind of, okay.

Shawn (05:43.914)
No.

Shawn (05:47.629)
That doesn't matter. That's not the question. The question isn't, you need a, is there a quota for how many friends you should have? It's should you have important relationships? And your answer, if I review your life as a huge yes, of course you have really powerful long-term relationships. You do.

Matt (05:53.807)
Okay.

Matt (06:03.854)
Yeah, if I were going to say the morality of it, it would be this. There are only a handful of things that we get to take with us when we die, right? We don't get to take our house and our cars and all of the stuff we own, but we do get to take relationships with us. And so I do think it's probably morally good to invest time in the things that have eternal value, that you can take them with you.

Shawn (06:28.033)
Well said. Well said.

Levi (06:28.588)
Yeah, I was talking to my my son the other day. He hurt his foot and was trying to call this and he was trying to walk to campus. He was like, Dad, my foot really hurts. How am going to get to campus? And I said, well, where are your roommates like where you know he lives with all these guys he seems pretty close to and and he he didn't seem to have any of those people that he could say, hey, I need something from you, right? And so we had kind of a talk about

It's important to invest in your friends so that you can support each other. So when your friends need help, or you're offering help, or you're setting up, I think it's so, so important to show up for people when they need help.

Matt (07:10.5)
Yeah.

Matt (07:15.44)
See now that I, now that you said that Levi, I'm reminded of these other friends I have. I've been friends with them since graduate school. We don't really have a lot in common, but they were moving one time and they asked for help. And I was like the only person who showed up to help them move. And like that meant so much to them that they're like, wow, he's somebody we can count on. And so then we always make it a point to see each other when we, when we can see each other, even though it's like hard to do, cause they live in Germany, but it's like, yeah, it doesn't take a lot to maintain a good friendship for a long period of time.

And I do think you're right, showing up is a really important part of that, being there for people.

Levi (07:49.972)
One, thing my wife tells me is she says, keep it awkward. And this is her key to like, and I sometimes think about this is like, there reaches a point, I think, especially with as men are friends that there's like, you can say something, but you know, it's gonna be awkward, right? You're gonna say, hey, you know, I really value our friendship. And there's a real chance he's gonna be like, that's a weird thing to say, bro.

But like she says, do those things, keep it awkward. So lean into the, you know, like the vulnerability, the awkwardness. I think it helps build better friendships. Keep it awkward out there, folks.

Matt (08:23.13)
Huh, that's good advice.

Shawn (08:26.349)
Like for example, Levi, I've always loved how your efficiency in hair cutting is equivalent to just putting a bowl on your head and cutting it around it. And that later on in life, you figured out somehow how to mitigate that a little bit, but is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

Levi (08:40.652)
Yeah. Yeah, right. That's when Matt and I are both thinking, that's a weird thing to say, bro. But we won't say it. We're like, no, that seems like no, I appreciate your appreciation of my haircut.

Matt (08:47.152)
This is this

Matt (08:55.034)
This is one last Levi story and then we're going to move on. I have a son on a mission. His name is actually Levi and he just finished his first transfer. And so we were talking about, cause he does exchanges from time to time. Cause his companions are zone leaders. And I was like, so Levi, what do you bring with you when you go on exchanges? And he told me about all the stuff he packs. And I was like, let me tell you about my friend Levi, what he would pack when he was going to go stay the night at somebody's house on a mission. What did you bring Levi?

Levi (09:21.72)
Toothbrush?

Matt (09:23.514)
And that's it. That's it. He put it in his like front pocket, the toothbrush. I told my son that he's like, a pillow or blankets or a towel. No. That's right. Yeah.

Levi (09:24.79)
I think so, yeah.

Shawn (09:25.197)
Ha ha ha ha!

Shawn (09:29.183)
Yeah

Shawn (09:34.445)
Change of clothes.

Shawn (09:39.775)
You were too busy doing the work Levi. That's what we loved about you. You're too busy doing the great work of the Lord and it was amazing.

Levi (09:45.198)
but not too busy to brush, you guys always brush.

Matt (09:48.651)
One thing we love about Levi's wife is she's helped him see past the just having a toothbrush. He now knows that's not sufficient. If you're going to, if you invite Levi to your house, he will have more than a toothbrush. I've learned this. All right, let's get to the thought provoker. So a poll this week shows that Americans are losing faith in American exceptionalism. Nearly 70 % of people.

Levi (10:00.982)
I will show up for the suitcase.

Matt (10:14.724)
said they believe the American dream that if you work hard, you'll get ahead, no longer holds true or never did. This is the highest level in nearly 15 years of surveys. Now, Sam's not with us, but I know for sure that Sam is a huge proponent of the American dream. But this is the question, is the American dream supported by scripture or is it just Sam's fantasy?

Shawn (10:38.851)
Matt, first of all, am I allowed to not attach exceptionalism to American dream? Like, why do I have to, like, I've never once looked at, I've always looked at the American dream and the opportunities that come from Liberty and freedom and property ownership, but I've never once gone and we are the greatest. are exceptional. We are better than everyone else. I've never once looked at it that way. I know some people do, but are you, I always hear you talk about that, that

Matt (11:06.33)
Well.

Shawn (11:07.715)
connection? Do I have to look at it that way? Why would I have to look at it that way?

Matt (11:11.322)
Well, if like, okay, let's say Mexico, right? Sean, Mexico has property ownership and freedom. Do you believe that if you lived in Mexico, you have the same opportunity to get ahead by working hard as you do if you live in the United States?

Shawn (11:23.989)
No, but they don't have the same freedoms. Absolutely, they do not have the same freedoms or the liberties. They don't have a justice system that protects them and therefore they're not free as free.

Matt (11:27.352)
I mean...

Matt (11:33.754)
So then is the United States the most free of all the countries in the world?

Shawn (11:38.317)
But when you say exceptionalism, I feel like there's this like Book of Mormon warning about pride, right? There's this like arrogance and this pride about it. Be honest, that's what you mean by exceptionalism, right? Or no, maybe I'm wrong.

Matt (11:51.28)
What I mean by exceptionalism is like around the 4th of July, a testimony meeting, inevitably somebody's going to share their testimony that says, I'm grateful to live in the most free land in the entire world, the greatest country in the entire world. And then they'll usually follow it up with, I know that if I lived any place else, I would like be in misery and sadness and woe. And I'm just so grateful that I was blessed to be born in this great country.

Shawn (12:15.021)
But because you've made this or you've asked the question in the context of morality, I think obviously if our attitude is the American dream exists because we are the greatest, we are the best, we are better than the others. Obviously that crosses the line into immorality. But if the idea is, I really am grateful for the principles that enable me to go from nothing to something great, then that's a different kind of moral view. So I don't know. I know this is a tangent, but

I just don't think you have to attach those two. I don't have to.

Matt (12:47.184)
But you just told me that you don't believe that the American dream is true in other countries.

Shawn (12:54.659)
The Mexican dream is true in their country.

Levi (12:57.774)
You

Matt (13:00.004)
The Argentinian dream is true. Right. so that's, but that's exceptionalism, right? That's saying there's something special about the United States where I live. That's giving me opportunities that nobody else has in other countries. And I want to know, setting the side, the pride part aside, Sean, is there a scriptural foundation for that belief that there's something special about the United States that makes it so that our dream is superior or we have better opportunity than anybody else in the world.

Levi (13:01.614)
Good recovery.

Shawn (13:02.659)
You

Shawn (13:26.179)
The only scriptural evidence would be 2nd Nephi 1.5, Lehi declares that the Lord has covenanted this land unto me and my children forever, as long as they shall serve him. And then there's ether to the Lord, tells the brother Jared that this land is a choice above all other lands, as long as we serve the Lord. And then there's 2nd Nephi 10, Jacob prophesies that, check this out, Matt, he prophesies that no kings will rule in this land, no kings. And that it is a...

Matt (13:35.152)
But this.

Matt (13:53.296)
I don't know why that matters.

Shawn (13:55.831)
But then it's because you love kings and then but then it says this is destined to become a land of liberty. So morally or scripturally, there's lots in there. Sure.

Matt (14:01.932)
Okay, well, let me ask you this question, Sean. Which country is closer to this land, Mexico or the United States? Like when Lehi is saying that, where is he sitting when he's, well, is this land the United States? Is it North America? Is it North and South America? Is it the Dominican Republic where Columbus landed when he discovered this land? Like, where is this land?

Shawn (14:11.107)
This is a geography question.

Shawn (14:21.825)
sure. Let's go.

Shawn (14:28.353)
Let's call it, you don't think it's in North and South America?

Matt (14:31.898)
Well, if it is, then why is the US dream better than the Mexican dream?

Shawn (14:35.715)
That's my distinction about trying to draw the line between we are better than Mexico. No, we're not better than Mexico. If Mexico applied the same kinds of principles of liberty and free speech and a justice system that protects your liberties, then it's in the same boat. I think that's the scripture. As long as you're following correct principles, then this is a promised land and we do have the opportunity for the dream. Let's not call it an American dream. Let's call it a providence dream, a principled dream.

Matt (15:04.196)
The promised land dream. Okay. What do you say Levi?

Shawn (15:05.569)
Yes, the promised land dream.

Levi (15:09.484)
Well, do you think that I mean, I'm interested in the falling survey results. Do you think that this reflects a reality is is. Is the American dream less accessible to people these days? Do you think that we've had a falling off there, that it's harder to pull yourself up from the bottom?

Shawn (15:28.899)
First of all, thank you for questioning Matt's stupid surveys. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Just kidding, Matt.

Matt (15:29.2)
Sam is listening.

Matt (15:37.082)
Sam is listening at home shouting, SHOUTING. THE AMERICAN DREAM IS ALIVE WHY ARE YOU GUYS TRYING TO KILL THE AMERICAN DREAM?

Shawn (15:44.343)
Yeah, I mean, that's your question Levi, right? Is the survey just a sampling of biased commenters or is it really not exist?

Levi (15:50.001)
Well, because sometimes, well, sometimes media can tell us a story that's not true. And it's very powerful. And sometimes we believe it. But do we think that's the case here? Right? Like I like I sometimes hear my Gen Z children tell me that the world is going to end because of climate change in the next decade. And I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, because I feel like that's, you know, that's media that's told them that. But

Matt (16:10.704)
Hahaha

Levi (16:16.673)
But I want is this real here or is this just media is is it less hard? Is it less?

Matt (16:21.491)
It's 70 % of Americans Levi, this can't be, you can't get a survey where 70 % of the people say that, a nationally representative survey where 70 % say that if there's not a huge portion of the people that really feel that. And I honestly think that for many people, this is true. I've been very, very blessed with my job and like things have worked out very well for me.

Levi (16:24.663)
Yeah.

Matt (16:46.33)
But that's not true for a lot of people. And I do know a lot of people who work very hard and they don't get ahead. And I was so excited in the Biden administration because wages were finally going up. And I was so excited. I was like, finally the wage growth and the middle-class we've been waiting for. But all of the inflation that came after that made it so that that wage growth didn't lead to anything better. So I understand like people who are working hard.

Levi (16:49.464)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (17:11.096)
And then it's not enough to pay the bills. So they've got to get some kind of a gig job driving Ubers or something like that, just to pay the bills. then housing and everything's getting, like, I understand why people feel that way. I don't know how to answer if it's actually true that working hard will or won't let you get ahead. don't know the answer to that question, but I understand why a lot of people feel that way.

Levi (17:32.578)
Well, and I look around and I think you'd have to be crazy to subscribe to the idea that the hardest working people are the wealthiest, for example, if that's how you measure success. Like that's crazy talk that that like there's so many other factors. And I think people are seeing they're like, what are you talking about? Working hard makes you rich. I know plenty of people that don't work hard and they're rich. And I know plenty of people that are working very hard and they're not rich.

Matt (17:49.209)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (18:01.722)
Mm-hmm.

Levi (18:01.826)
So what gives there? And so I think we do need to, if we're gonna talk about the American dream, I think we need to talk about it realistically. We need to say, hey, hard work's important. And also it helps to have rich parents. You know what I mean? Like you're gonna come up against these disadvantages.

Matt (18:16.388)
helps have rich friends. Yeah.

Shawn (18:16.835)
Well, but that's a good point, defining what the American dream is. I don't think the American dream is as simple as if you work hard, you're gonna be super wealthy. That has nothing, I think that actually has nothing to do with it. I think if you work hard plus smart, you are continually trying to, plus if you're continually trying to improve yourself and learn and educate, yeah, and then you add these outliers of, and let's say if mom and dad leave you millions of dollars, okay, there's lots of that too.

Matt (18:34.128)
You're very fortunate.

Shawn (18:46.551)
But in the end, I don't think the American dream is, and you'll be really, really rich, right? Like Levi, if we do look and analyze at all of our friends who do work really hard, some smart, some not smart, but they still have a car that they can drive in order to do an extra job called Uber. That's a luxury that what percentage of the world doesn't even have. Like look at India. my goodness. Like they're still living a very beautiful lifestyle. There's still an opportunities for all of us.

Matt (19:08.261)
Yeah.

Shawn (19:14.519)
despite the fact that I'm not keeping up with the Joneses. That's where I think this, whole discussion falls a flat is our pride sneaks in and goes, we become comparative. Well, I'm not succeeding because look at my neighbor over here who has five cars in a giant mansion. See, I'm not succeeding and it's not fair, it's not my fault. All the while you have a thousand dollar phone in your hand that brings the whole world accessibly to you. All the while you have a decent car.

Matt (19:40.484)
We're spying with the way we know, by the way we know Sean doesn't have a thousand dollar phone in his hand. He just barely upgraded to the iPhone eight. Was it the eight Sean? This is, if you have a thousand dollar phone in your hand, Sean's just jealous. That's why.

Shawn (19:49.145)
Yeah, pretty much.

Levi (19:55.192)
Yeah, if you if you have a pinhole camera, Sean's jealous of your camera at this point.

Matt (19:58.628)
You

Shawn (19:59.619)
That's right, I live frugally. That's right.

Matt (20:01.552)
Right. Well, so I think there's a flaw in the question, right? If you work hard, you will get ahead. That's interesting, right? Like, why should we expect that if I work hard, I'm going to get ahead? Because ahead implies that there's people behind you in some way, right? So that really shouldn't be the American dream. The American dream should be, if I work hard, I'll be okay. If I work hard,

Shawn (20:23.651)
This is the theme of Matt's life. It'll work out fine. If I climb this rope with a petite woman holding me, that's fine.

Levi (20:27.945)
Good luck.

Levi (20:31.63)
With my tiny wife on the other end.

Matt (20:35.792)
That's my American dream. That's what people should be hoping for. You might get hurt, but it'll be okay. It's fine. I like Sean. I'm going to give you the point Sean, because you taught, you said, and I, I didn't think you would say this. I haven't heard many people say this. The American dream, the promised land is not just the United States. The promised land is, what is the promised land Sean? Who gets, who gets included? Caribbean?

Shawn (21:02.595)
This is one of those backhanded compliments that Matt gives me.

Matt (21:04.76)
No, no, I'm serious. Like, I love that you said this, right? Like you're like, okay, Mexico, like if they follow the principles of the gospel, the Lord's going to bless their land just like he'll bless the United States.

Shawn (21:16.841)
Absolutely, why there's no evidence other than that. There's no like doctrine that says here are the borders around the promised land Right

Matt (21:23.64)
I like it. I'm giving you the points.

Levi (21:24.066)
Well, and I'm giving Sean points for the same reason, because I really, really am tired of showing up at Sunday School lessons and having people talk about, read these scriptures as if they refer to the United States when clearly they don't. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (21:37.304)
Yeah, that's great.

Shawn (21:37.741)
Well, Matt gets the points for that. You're the one that asked that question. what are you referring to? What geography? But then Levi, I'm giving points to Levi because you made the great point that hard work isn't the American dream. Hard work isn't just the American dream. And the American dream points to me isn't just I'm richer than the next guy. Wow, we all got points.

Levi (21:41.421)
all right. Okay.

Matt (21:55.17)
I like that you gave them to yourself. I'm giving my... Yeah, good job, Sean. Okay, next question. After 27 girls died at Camp Mystic in the July 4th quarter, did you hear about this?

Levi (21:55.503)
Wow, Sean gave everybody points.

Shawn (21:58.652)
You

Shawn (22:04.467)
geez. Go from a fun topic to this. Geez, man.

Matt (22:09.562)
Well, it's sad. Well, this is a bittersweet topic, right? So after those girls died at Camp Mystic in the river flood near Caryville, Texas, the state legislature quickly passed near unanimous legislation to prevent something like that from ever happening again. The link in the show notes talks about how quickly everybody in the legislature, except for one person, said, we got to solve this problem to make sure that this never happens again.

because this loss of life is tragic and we're never gonna let it happen again. Yet children are being wounded or murdered on a regular basis in cities throughout the United States in mass shootings that result in no meaningful legislation. In some ways it feels like society treats some loss of life differently than other loss of life. So my question is, is it immoral for Texas to pass laws preventing loss of life from floods at camps

but to do nothing after the mass shootings that happened in their state.

Shawn (23:09.859)
Levi, you want to take that first?

Levi (23:13.934)
Well, I do think the fact that it's unanimous was pretty crazy. I guess what did they do? Maybe it was an easy thing that they do. I also think, I'm not a big gun control guy, but I do think it's gotten a little out of control. We need to straighten some things out to keep our children safe.

Shawn (23:14.819)
I already have a minute to go.

Matt (23:24.452)
Well no, like-

Matt (23:36.634)
So, so think about this. what happened was there was a girls camp that built homes, like camp homes in a floodplain, right? Cabins. They built cabins in a floodplain and there's very rare that there's a flood and this was like a once in a lifetime thing and it was very unusual. And they said, we're going to pass a law that says no more cabins built in floodplains because we don't have the infrastructure to keep you safe. If a flood happens to happen. Okay, well,

You could pass all kinds of equally common sense laws to keep people safe from guns in the state of Texas, right? This, by the way, if we're going to go to Sean's property rights, this is an infringement on people's property rights. What if I want to build a cabin in a floodplain on my own land? Now it's against the law in the state of Texas. Or what if I already have one? Now I have to like, I have to do all kinds of things. Like there's all kinds of burdens this places on citizens to prevent something.

Levi (24:18.498)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (24:32.186)
that is so unlikely to ever happen again, but they did it in response because they're like, we don't care that this was a once in a lifetime thing. It's never going to happen again. And I just think, why don't we do that when, and you've all, he was in Texas. There was the Walmart shooting in Texas. Why don't we do that in response to these other horrific loss of life that are equally unlikely to ever happen again? Why don't we respond in the same way?

Levi (24:58.284)
Yeah, that was the part that was surprising to me is that like usually I hear Republicans talking about how we can take our own risks, right? Where we're like, you know, we had this during COVID and we were like, okay, I'm going to take the risks for my grandkids. you know, Republicans are usually about, I'm going to take my own risks and you government stay out of it. And this seems like a real reversal for them to say.

No, you're not allowed to take your own risk here. This is a place where this is a risk we're not going to allow you private citizens to take. Interesting.

Matt (25:30.552)
Well, and so what, and so who were these victims that died in this river flooding? The stories that I heard in the wake of this was, it's a, it's a girls camp for Christian young women who are in the elites of society. No, it's true, Sean, right? You had all of these like elite women in Texas politics and Texas society saying, I learned how to be a woman at that camp. I'm so proud of my time at that camp. How could this tragedy take away the life of so many promising young women?

Shawn (25:42.531)
Oh boy. Oh boy.

Matt (26:00.25)
who are primarily affluent, Christian and white. And so does, Sean, does feel to me like we care way more when rich, white, young women die than we do about the other people that die in school shootings.

Shawn (26:12.995)
I was wondering what the angle was.

Matt (26:15.49)
I mean, that's, I feel like I was pretty clear about that in the question. Like it's, it feels that way.

Levi (26:17.358)
I think it.

Levi (26:21.39)
Many, many school shooting victims are wealthy and white. Like you look at Sandy Hook, these are often white kids.

Matt (26:30.564)
But if we just talk specifically Texas, right? Because I actually think, I think like the school shootings in Connecticut, they actually did pass laws in response to the Sandy Hook. There's been a lot of public response to Sandy Hook. But Texas, and I'm just saying like Texas in particular, Uvalde, what did they do in Uvalde? They like got really mad at those police officers who didn't go in and try and save the kids. But did they...

Levi (26:36.383)
Uvaldi was...

Levi (26:42.35)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (26:56.228)
You had Matthew McConaughey down there demanding some kind of change and he's like the biggest celebrities you could get in Texas. Like no meaningful legislation as a result of Uvalde. But when these young women die in a river, almost unanimous, let's do something about that.

Shawn (27:10.061)
Okay, but are you suggesting then that minorities with only people dying by guns? Because you're suggesting it sounds like rich white women somehow enact flood legislation to save white women's lives, rich white girls' lives. So if people are dying by guns, then it's racist that we don't pass laws to get rid of guns because only black people are dying by guns? I don't understand the argument.

Matt (27:34.21)
No, that's really not what I'm trying to. I mean, I'm saying that it's easy to see that side. It's easy to see that like there could be some kind. I'm not even going to say it's racial as much as like socioeconomic background. But let me ask you this, Sean. Let's say that it wasn't a flood that killed those 27 girls at that camp. Let's say that it was somebody came in with an assault rifle and just started shooting up the cabins and just killing those girls instead of a flood killing them.

Shawn (27:46.856)
Matt (28:01.53)
Do you think that Texas would still have the same non-response that they've had to other school shootings? Really? No way.

Shawn (28:06.423)
Yeah, I do. Texas, you think Texas is gonna go after their gun rights? They're not. There's this weird thing that, sure, I guess if there was a constitutional right to flood prevention, this would be a different suggestion. But that inconvenient idea that the right to bear arms is a constitutional right, that muddies up this whole discussion. I don't think you can blame racism or socioeconomic differences

Matt (28:14.062)
Well that-

Shawn (28:36.723)
when you've got this one underlying idea that there's a constitutional right to bear arms. So you're not going to get people to make changes. States aren't going to make laws and changes because they can't, right?

Matt (28:41.786)
I don't

Matt (28:46.672)
Well, okay, so in this case, they infringe on property owners' rights by saying you can no longer build cabins and floodplains, right? So you don't have to take away the right to bear arms to say these kinds of weapons that were used in this will not be allowed in our state ever again. Like you can, I can't, I don't have a right to a tank. I don't have a right to a rocket launcher. I can ban guns, certain guns.

Shawn (28:53.784)
Yeah, right.

Shawn (29:07.651)
That would never, but that would never, you think that would hold up in like a Supreme Court would uphold those types of things? Like you can literally only have one type of gun. I don't think they would uphold that, wouldn't they?

Matt (29:20.718)
I mean, it's a, I would say that some places are willing to, were, Texas is certainly willing to push the borders, the boundaries on abortion legislation. They're certainly willing to push the boundaries on other things that seem like the courts have ruled against it. Gerrymandering, for instance, right? Texas is willing to push the boundaries and say, you tell us, you make us change that law, but as a state, we're sending a message. We're going to pass this law.

Levi (29:40.28)
Yeah.

Shawn (29:42.211)
Mmm.

Matt (29:48.984)
And we dare you, Supreme Court, to tell us we can't do it.

Shawn (29:51.725)
Hmm. No good point. Yeah. It's a good point.

Levi (29:54.828)
Yeah, it's just, yeah. I also want to know where the gun nuts when the National Guard is deployed in our cities. Like, weren't we supposed to have guns so we could stand up to federal tyranny, but we're like.

Matt (30:02.766)
Yeah, yeah

Shawn (30:06.115)
Great point, great point Levi! Great point Levi! I love that!

Levi (30:09.422)
Peace.

Matt (30:09.712)
All right, Sean was right. That's a little bit of a sad topic. So we'll move on to something less sad. don't want, and I, again, just to be clear, I'm not a person, I'm totally in favor of the right to bear arms. think that we should, I'm just curious why there's no response to certain kinds of deaths and there's a quick response to others.

Shawn (30:33.867)
I think there's some truth in your answer. think the real probably answer is based in federalism, right? If you've got a local community who has influence or has a loud voice and screams so much about something, and maybe this does go to your point, Matt, then they're gonna have some effect on a state changing a law for their micro tragedy. Whereas, like you said, in Compton, there may not be as much of an influence

Matt (30:58.416)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (31:02.605)
because of maybe it is racist reasons. I mean, I'll give you the points for taking us in that direction.

Matt (31:09.24)
Okay, but I didn't want to say racism, right? I really don't think it's race as much as demographics, economics, people who are connected. Yeah, it's like the people you know. If my friend's daughter dies at a camp, I'm going to have an emotional reaction that makes me want to do something that's different than I read about somebody 300 miles away got shot in a Walmart. That just has, you just have a different response.

Shawn (31:11.376)
sorry.

Levi (31:16.216)
Yeah, class too.

Shawn (31:33.123)
But there's nothing immoral about that. That's just pragmatic.

Matt (31:38.33)
But if I represent the state of Texas, then I feel like that is immoral because I should care as much about the person who got shot 300 miles away as I do about my friend next door's daughter who died. I should as a representative not behave differently. Okay.

Shawn (31:52.195)
Okay. Yeah, Okay. Yeah.

Levi (31:54.102)
Yeah, that's a good point.

Matt (31:56.14)
Okay. This week, the Trump family, wait, I'm going to try and say they launched a cryptocurrency, which led to a $5 billion gain in wealth for the family. So if we're keeping track before Trump becomes president of the United States, he is a not billionaire. He has zero billions of dollars of wealth, and now he has more than $5 billion in wealth in six months as president of the United States.

As President Trump nominates the people who control the money supply. Through his office he has a lot of control over the value of the dollar which influences demand for cryptocurrencies. He also owns a social media platform on which he released declassified video of an attack on drug cartels from Venezuela. As the only source of this video, every news station that reported on the story had to credit his social media platform as the source of the video. So my question is,

Is Trump's use of his presidential power to influence his own personal wealth immoral? I know it's corrupt. Is it immoral?

Shawn (33:01.507)
I love it. mean, duh, of course it is. okay. Name, name the, member of the U S house whose wealth increased by 3,500 % a year ago. No, it's not even her. No, it's not either of those two. There's two, there are two people, hang on. There are two people who have gained more, more wealth.

Levi (33:08.366)
Duh.

Matt (33:18.86)
I know, I know you're always going to say Nancy Pelosi.

Levi (33:21.304)
Kelly Leffler, Rick Scott.

Matt (33:27.44)
Adam Schiff, Nancy Mase.

Shawn (33:30.979)
There's two and they're actually both women have gained more wealth. One's a Democrat, one's a Republican who have been gaining more wealth. 3500 %

Matt (33:37.422)
It's the House of Representatives, so I get to play name the House member who's Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Shawn (33:43.255)
Yep. One Republican, one Democrat. Yes, that's one of them, Margey Taylor Greene. Now who's the Democrat?

Matt (33:50.426)
Whoa, whoa. Marjorie Taylor Greene's wealth has increased how much since she took off us?

Shawn (33:54.691)
it to about $21 million from from about $700,000 net worth to $21 million in about three years.

Matt (34:00.162)
Ooooo

Levi (34:01.194)
No, but we got a fact check that Marjorie Taylor Green has legitimate businesses. So does so did the Pelosi's but.

Matt (34:03.567)
The other-

Matt (34:07.482)
The other one you're going to say is AOC. really? Because like AOC was like waiting tables before she became a member of Congress. Like she has to.

Shawn (34:09.579)
Nope, close, close.

Levi (34:15.938)
Right? mean, fractionally, that's gotta be a huge gain,

Shawn (34:17.219)
Yep. Ilhan Omar has increased a $30 million net worth. That's a 3500 % increase.

Matt (34:22.189)
Okay.

Levi (34:26.83)
by getting married. But yeah, okay.

Matt (34:30.08)
married a rich person. Okay, Sean, you see the distinction between a member of Congress increasing wealth in their business when they are not the one in charge of the value of the dollar? Trump is like trying to put his own people on the Federal Reserve Board.

Shawn (34:31.203)
That's not what the report says.

Shawn (34:44.181)
I'm not defending anything that Trump does in this regard. What I'm saying is there's rampant immorality and unethical increase in profits from all these, what you call public servants. This is the nature of it by far. The DNC says it, they gain a little bit of power and they start to, they're corrupt. mean, come on.

Matt (34:59.384)
you

Matt (35:07.204)
Well, no, that's talking about priesthood holders, Sean. That's priesthood holders, not Marjorie Taylor Greene. That doesn't even apply to her.

Shawn (35:10.558)
sorry. Okay. I'm just saying, don't be selective in your outrage.

Levi (35:14.456)
Well, so the...

Matt (35:18.736)
it, to me, there is a distinction. There is a distinction between being one of 435 house members and being the president of the United States. When I have the power to declassify a video and nobody else has that power, by the way, and I can choose to declassify only for my own platform, that behavior, whether or not people became rich, that behavior in and of itself is something only Trump has done.

Shawn (35:37.731)
Yeah, it's horrible.

Shawn (35:41.891)
And he's willing to get close to legal lines and to risk that in order to get personal profit. Shocked? Are you shocked that this person we put in to the presidency is able and willing to do that? That's been him his whole life. We know that that's who he is. It doesn't justify it. It's very wrong, but don't be selective, I'm saying. Ilhan Omar, Marjorie Taylor Greene, like if you study at least what I studied.

Their wealth gains Levi were after they became like if truly it is like, we're just successful as a then why did their wealth gains go up 3,500 % since they entered their public service?

Levi (36:19.47)
I will have to fact check that. mean, Paul Pelosi has his own job. He's, know, you know, yeah, these people are, these are are complicated questions. I agree. Members of Congress shouldn't be able to trade stock, but the Democrats introduced that bill every two years, and Republicans always shoot it down. They always introduce bills that say no more stock trading for us. Republicans always say, no, we're going to keep doing

Shawn (36:19.681)
Soapbox done.

Matt (36:19.856)
stress.

Shawn (36:43.075)
Okay, if we're gonna fact check, we're gonna have to fact check that too. So you're saying it's just the Republicans.

Levi (36:46.424)
Yeah, let's do it.

Matt (36:46.436)
Yeah, every two years, that's every two years Levi, that seems like it goes back a long time.

Shawn (36:50.307)
No, but it's not just, it is every time that I see it is not just the Republicans shooting it down. It is the Democrats and the Republicans shooting it down always.

Levi (36:54.636)
Let's do it. There's, I think we'll have to look up.

We'll have to look at it. There's one in one of the committees right now that's just sitting in committee and the Republicans will move on it. They're like,

Matt (37:08.496)
And what they should do, should tie it to releasing the Epstein files and then it would sail right through. They would pass that in a heartbeat.

Shawn (37:12.637)
Yeah

Levi (37:12.982)
Yeah. Well, you know, but I do want to highlight that like this crypto scheme is uniquely nefarious because you know the way cryptocurrencies work, can like people can buy his coin, right? And they can and nobody can know who bought them, right? Nobody can like there's a fair degree of opacity to these guys, somebody with

Like state level resources could probably figure it out. But a lot of it is pretty opaque. So you can buy these anonymously. But then if somebody wanted to demonstrate to Trump that they own this stuff, they can demonstrate to an individual that, that's me. Right. This is because the digital signatures in the way that they work. So you could have nobody knows who out in the world saying, hey, Trump, I gave you 100 million dollars. Isn't that great? And Trump will say, prove it. And they'll say, here's the signature.

This is my account. I, you know, I bought a hundred million dollars worth of your coin.

Matt (38:13.198)
And he's rewarded people in the past. Everyone that had a million dollars in his coin, he had a special gathering for them in the White House. Like Trump has in his first, in just these last six months, nine months, right? Whatever it is, he's had events, especially for people who purchase his cryptocurrency. But it's not just that this allows you to bypass the constitutional checks on like bribing the president, but it's also that the president can move those levers of government to make it so that

his crypto is now more valuable or less valuable depending on, he could short his own crypto if he wanted to, and he would have direct control over whether or not he made money on that, which we've seen him do a number of times as president. So it just, I don't know. I understand Sean, like lots of members of Congress become rich after they're elected into office. But to me, that's very different than using government specifically just to make yourself get rich.

Shawn (39:04.055)
that's what they're doing. It's not technically insider trading according to the definition that they've created for themselves, but it absolutely is insider trading. They are using their power and influence and inside knowledge with their status of power to make themselves rich, all of them.

Matt (39:19.204)
they all have, they all have less power and less ability to do it than the president of the United States. So I don't.

Shawn (39:24.373)
Yeah, I know, but that's- they have so much more power.

Levi (39:26.198)
And they are not soliciting bribes in the same way. I feel like this point needs to be re-emphasized, that they are not soliciting bribes in the way that Trump is. Like this is the most transparent grift the country has ever seen in a president.

Matt (39:43.312)
Hmm. Well, that's too bad. I'm going to give you the points for that Levi. That actually makes me more sad that the last topic made me, but I'll give you points for pointing that out.

Shawn (39:46.925)
Hahaha

Shawn (39:52.631)
hahahaha

Matt (39:55.482)
Hmm. Okay. I'm so excited about the big question this week. Sean, who are you giving the points to by the way?

Shawn (40:02.426)
uh... that but the bust of lennon behind you

Matt (40:02.862)
Yourself? He would be so proud of you. Okay, in Heelman chapter 13, verses 25 to 29, from time to time I read my scriptures and then these thoughts pop into my head and I'm like, I've got to talk about this on the podcast when so-and-so's a guest. So I've been saving this one for when Levi was a host, because I love this question. Okay.

I say that it's Nephi, it's actually Helaman 13 would be Samuel the Lamanite. I think he's the one speaking. But anyhow, what it says, basically he says to them, you say that if you lived in the days past, you wouldn't have stoned or killed the prophets. And he's like, but it's not true. You're worse than they are because if a prophet comes into the country and praises you, I'm paraphrasing. If a prophet comes in and says, you're doing great and you're doing all these wonderful things, then you puff them up. You follow them.

But when a prophet comes in and says, you need to repent, then you get really mad and you want to kill them and destroy them and all of these terrible things. So I think that this is in the book of Mormon because the Lord is trying to warn us about something that's innate in human nature. think it's the natural man, something inside of all of us. We want to believe, praise, be a part of members of groups that

Tell us good things about ourselves. want to follow people who tell us everything's going great and we're wonderful. And if somebody tells us something like, hey, you're bad, you need to repent, you're doing something wrong, we get mad at those people and we don't want to follow them. I think that's part of human nature. I think that's what this verse is trying to teach us. So if that's true, then would that mean that representative government is the absolute worst of all the forms of government?

If people are always going to vote for leaders who tell them exactly what they want to hear, aren't elections the worst way of selecting political leaders or government officials? Isn't that the worst thing we could possibly do?

Shawn (42:07.203)
Probably is probably worse than a dictator, you know murdering its citizens and Forcing elections probably worse. I think you're right

Matt (42:15.428)
Well, so pause there, Sean. Let's list dictators and how they got into power because Hitler became a dictator through an election, right? If you, Putin, who's teetering on a dictator was elected. We can go to Venezuela. That person was elected. Pick a dictator.

Shawn (42:25.219)
Hahaha!

hang on. Hold on. Putin wasn't, Putin wasn't honestly elected. Remember what was it? Yeah, I know. But the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh time, what were the poll or how, what percentage of the vote did he get in those? What percentage, Matt? Was it 99 % perhaps?

Matt (42:37.218)
Elected? He was the first time.

Levi (42:40.279)
It was the first time.

Matt (42:45.904)
I'm just saying Sean, most dictators are selected the first time through an election. Heller only won 33 % of the vote in Germany in his first election, but that was enough.

Shawn (42:55.373)
Yeah, but-

And how many, yeah, but how many more times then do they, I mean, the dictator then holds onto power. It's not like they're giving, it's not like they're perpetuating democracy in that stage.

Matt (43:08.282)
But you never have a Putin and you never have a Hitler if you don't have elections.

Shawn (43:13.507)
Yeah, but with free elections, you've but if you maintain that principle of democracy and free elections, you get those people out of office. It's not the initial voting them in that caused the problem. It's the them gaining power and not and controlling the ability to be voted out. That's the problem. We're always we're always going to

Matt (43:15.02)
Nobody could have voted him into office.

Matt (43:31.374)
No, it's that Putin and Hitler and all of those people understand that once you're in office, what you do is you manipulate the narrative, the media narrative, so that people don't hear the true facts of what's going on, right? You manipulate information, you manipulate your image, you create all this propaganda, and then people who are fooled and they're like, I believe this person is looking out for me when the person really isn't.

Shawn (43:52.311)
they do.

Shawn (43:56.707)
Right, that's an element. I agree that's an element when you violate principles like free press and free speech, but then they go further and they take things like murdering their opponents, like Navalny. Putin murdered Navalny. Navalny had a legitimate chance to get a following, and if the people would have voted, there's a chance he would have become president and taken out the whole Putin regime, but they murdered him.

Matt (44:08.996)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (44:20.4)
There's no way he was going to win an election. Right. Do you know what they did? This is way before that. What they do is they replace elected officials with their own people. Right. They replace people who are legitimately in positions of power with their own people, which by the way, Trump is doing right now as he replaces people in legitimate government roles with his own people. He's doing the same kind of thing that Putin, like that's one of the things they do. But if you don't have elections, you don't have to worry. Like it's a terrible idea to say.

We're going to let you guys pick who's your leader when we are so subject to manipulation. We're not wise. No, I'm serious.

Shawn (44:56.067)
I know you're playing devil's advocate here for the sake of a good discussion, what's what remind me of the alternative that's

Matt (45:03.854)
Wait, we're gonna let Levi go first.

Levi (45:05.558)
Yeah, well, I was going to bring in a scripture, Shani, you'd be so proud of me. So Mosiah 29, 26 tells us, this is talking about the system of judges among the Nephites. And it says, now it is not common that the voice of the people desire, desire anything contrary to that which is right, but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right. Therefore, this shall you observe and make it your law to do your business by the voice of the people. And so I think we.

Matt (45:08.28)
Yeah.

Shawn (45:08.309)
All right.

Levi (45:34.518)
We're trying to play a numbers game here, right? We're saying, okay, so we could have all the people decide and maybe all the people will decide on something that's wrong, but it's not that common. Or we could let one person decide and it's much more common that one person is going to decide on something rotten than many people.

Matt (45:55.524)
Well, okay, so let's go back to this system of judges because I do think the principle is true that it's not common for the majority to want something bad. But in the system of judges, who selected the judges? Did the people vote for the judges? No. Weren't the judges selected by other judges? And what you could do is you could vote out a bad judge, but the judges weren't originally selected by the people, right?

Levi (46:21.518)
Mmm.

Matt (46:22.222)
So even there where they're saying we've got the, want to do things by the voice of the people. I guess they'd had an election for the chief judge, but most of the judges were appointed by other judges. And then lower judges could get together and vote out the higher judge. So even in the book of Mormon where they're saying we don't want a king, we want to have some sort of a representative government. They're not really letting the people vote for these judges. There's somebody else making that choice.

Shawn (46:47.203)
What does it mean then in verse 29, if your higher judges do not judge righteous judgments, ye shall cause that a small number of your lower judges should be gathered together and they shall judge your higher judges according to the voice of the people. What does that mean then?

Matt (47:01.326)
I mean, I wish we had some more detail on that, right? But it doesn't sound like the people get to do it. It sounds like the smaller judges get to do it.

Levi (47:04.12)
Yeah.

Shawn (47:08.931)
But that would be true if it didn't have the word according to the voice of the people. There's some involvement in the voice of the people there.

Matt (47:16.388)
Yeah, I mean, maybe. Well, so then here's, here's another way to like think about this, Sean. In the United States, we don't let the majority decide who runs the government. So if Levi's point is true, that the majority rarely chooses the wrong thing. We have a system of government in the United States that protects against what we call the tyranny of the majority. So we allow a minority of people to take power. And so this is a situation we have right now, right? Donald Trump.

was not the choice of the majority of Americans, especially not in his first term. Joe Biden wasn't necessarily in his first term, the majority of Americans wanted him. And in the House of Representatives with all this gerrymandering fight we have going on, if you were to say, okay, let's just everybody vote who you want in office. We don't have a system where the majority actually decides on a national level. We split it all up in various ways so that minorities can take power. So maybe the majority of the people can be trusted, but a substantial minority can't be trusted.

And so we shouldn't let them choose representatives.

Shawn (48:18.307)
I don't know. think this argues for the absolute importance of a free press, freedom of speech, because you have to put trust in me as the individual, right? Levi is the most valuable person on this planet because he's the individual on this planet. God views Levi as the most valuable thing. And so I have to respect that, right? So we need to provide a way for Levi to

get information correctly, to exercise his free conscious, to compare this to this, and to make the decisions he sees fit. So I think that the conditions of the American government need to be so that Levi can make free choices and not be manipulated. That's the heart of your question. Do people who we vote into power just then gain that power to manipulate and trick the rest of us, they coerce the rest of us to maintain that power to do the things that they want in corruption? That's the heart of the question.

Matt (49:11.376)
Well, you pretty much told me that that's what they do in the previous question. You went through the whole list of people that are manipulating their voters to get into power so that they can enrich themselves.

Shawn (49:22.179)
I mean, I didn't say they manipulated them to get into partners themselves. They voted in and then they should be voted out when they become corrupt. Yeah.

Matt (49:30.628)
Well then why aren't they voted out? Why isn't Marjorie Taylor Greene voted out? In some ways she must embarrass her constituents, right? So the fact that she's corrupt and making a lot of money and maybe not working for her constituents, why don't they vote her out, Sean?

Shawn (49:43.235)
So your point is that she has somehow bamboozled enough people to think that she is this loyal magga, like righteous crusader. And now she can get away with the corruption. Is that kind of your point?

Matt (49:57.818)
Here, I'll say my point even most directly of all, because then, my point is this. Jimmy Carter was a great president who sat in front of the American people and said, do you know what's wrong with America today? You guys. You guys are greedy. You guys are selfish. You guys waste energy. You expect too much from the government and you're not willing to work hard yourselves. And Americans said, boo, we hate you, get out of office. Because Ronald Reagan said,

We have all of these problems in America and do you know whose fault it is? It's the government's fault. It's not your fault. It's the government's fault. And America said, hooray, hooray. We want you to be president instead of Jimmy Carter. And that cycle repeats itself over and over and over.

Levi (50:29.216)
the government.

Levi (50:38.274)
Well, and.

And Trump showed up and said, you know, we have lots of problems. Guess whose fault it is? The Brown people. Right. And so we went for that too. And so white America was like, yeehaw. Yeah.

Matt (50:50.628)
Boy.

Do know what's interesting in a press comp? Every time I watch a press conference with Donald Trump, a reporter will ask him a question. He'll deflect it in some way. And if he ever gets pinned down to a spot where he would have to say, he'd have to justify something that's not popular or have to explain some decision he made that doesn't make logical sense. He'll say, do you know how bad Joe Biden was? Do you know how horrible it would be if Biden were here right now? And before that, do you know how bad it would be if Obama was here? Like Trump is the master of deflect the blame.

to somebody else other than him. And Americans eat that up because it's like, you're not going to blame me. Okay, fine. Let's blame Biden. Let's blame Obama. Let's blame Trump. And as long as you just play the blame game, then nobody has to take responsibility for their role in causing the problem. And then society doesn't get better. So this is why I say it's a terrible way to run a system.

Levi (51:42.626)
Yeah. Well, or let's be better voters, right? Is there a way we can be better voters, Matt? That's the thing I was hoping we'd talk about is how do we not be the kinds of people who say, look, I'll vote for anybody who tells me it's not my fault. I'll vote for anybody who praises me.

Shawn (51:45.197)
So you're.

Matt (52:00.88)
Well, that's a lot to ask from people Levi. People, that's asking them to overcome their natural dispens- in my opinion, that's asking them to do something contrary to their nature.

Levi (52:08.98)
and

Shawn (52:11.107)
So this does go back to kind of a theme that I think I understand you believe in Matt, which is basically, look, you can't trust people because their nature is such that they will choose wrong, they will do wrong, they are selfish and greedy. And so you need a group of elite, wise, righteous people to make all the decisions for the masses. That's kind of been your stance politically, right?

Matt (52:32.634)
I I think the Book of Mormon called them judges. I think that the Bible called them judges. I'm pretty sure that like, I'm thinking the church, we call them the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Like we're really, really comfortable with people being selected to rule us or to tell us what to do or to make, to run things without us having any voice in it. And I think it's okay.

Shawn (52:56.099)
But how do you balance that with the scripture? Mosiah 29.32 that Levi brought. I desire the land of liberty even every man write in the Jewish by the voice of the people. The voice of the people is an component there. How do you just ignore that one?

Matt (53:11.652)
Well, do you think that the church is governed by the voice of the people? Because we say by common consent, right? And so frequently, like, let's say that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is going to do something and it's a bad thing and they present it to the church and the church says, we oppose. Well, then that's by the, or we sustain that, right? That's by the voice of the people. We have, we have a system in the church that's governed by the voice of the people with leaders who are not selected by the people.

Shawn (53:38.433)
Okay, you think that the government should be run that way? Do you really?

Matt (53:41.484)
I I think for at least 300 years we had divine right of kings. God chose the king. God chose the king's heirs and those people ruled. And if they did something really, really bad, then the people would rise up and if, if it didn't always happen, Henry VIII had a good run for a little while. I think there's, I think there's like value in recognizing like a person born into royalty.

Levi (53:54.508)
when they did something really bad. Yeah.

Shawn (53:57.475)
you

Hahaha!

Levi (54:03.342)
you

Matt (54:10.06)
knows their whole life that they're destined to become the king and they're trained from a young age, you have a responsibility to your subjects. I think we can trust those people to govern us. Well, this is something I can't share my testimony about on the 4th of July, right? Because it doesn't work. I really appreciate it.

Shawn (54:17.731)
I mean that man if I was in the room with you my my small teeny baby hand would come across your face.

Levi (54:27.054)
Which...

Levi (54:36.654)
Well, my thought about how to create a better government was, and I realized that we're going to need this podcast to be circulated a lot wider for this to make any difference. But I think you're looking for somebody that you trust. I do think that there's too much emphasis on policy. When we elect people, have to them tell of their policies.

Matt (54:48.042)
Hahahaha

Shawn (54:48.066)
Yeah.

Levi (55:03.894)
And I really am looking for somebody that I trust and specifically somebody that I would trust to tell me hard things like, you know, those are really special people to me people that I can listen to even when they say Levi, you done screwed up. That was bad, right? The people that I can listen to that about those are the people that I that I kind of want. And so like, yeah, more Jimmy Carters.

Shawn (55:28.717)
But Levi, that requires, doesn't that require a humble, like one thing I've always absolutely loved about you Levi is the level of humility. Like how many times when we were companions that I just be a buffoon and do something or say something really unjustified and you just took it with humility and it's, it wasn't many times and it changed my life. realized, wow, I'm kind of an arrogant prick compared to this like humble Christlike guy.

Levi (55:46.609)
one.

Shawn (55:56.703)
And so doesn't what you're saying require a humble constituency in order to take that? Like Matt's example of Carter, I don't know if that's a true one or not, or if that's accurate, but if that's true, then Matt's argument is the people are too prideful to take that kind of, to follow that kind of trustworthy, honest leader. All right.

Matt (56:09.072)
That's accurate.

Matt (56:17.072)
Well, instead of, okay, so I can see that Sean's never gonna agree to have a king. So then we just have to switch the script to, we have to just limit voting to certain people. Only certain people get to be voters. And we have to be like Levi. If you're like Levi, you can vote. If you're not, you can't. Like,

Levi (56:18.668)
It is a disappointing story,

Shawn (56:20.0)
We need all people to be like Levi, humble and good and amazing.

Shawn (56:33.047)
What the crap? What are you saying, man?

Shawn (56:39.563)
I would never say that. That's you, Matt. I'm not saying that. put words in my mouth.

Matt (56:42.682)
Well, I don't know. I'm just a solutions thinker, Sean. I'm just trying to think of solutions to the problem. You keep asking me for solutions. I'm trying to give you something. I'm still kind of stuck on Kings. I really like King Benjamin. I really like King Saul. I really like King David, King Solomon. There's there's great Kings out there that we could hope that whoever is selected by God to be our King would be as good as they are. And then they would tell us the hard truth.

Shawn (56:46.153)
Hahaha!

Shawn (57:01.912)
Yeah.

Shawn (57:07.619)
Of course, course, course, if they're selected by God, of course that doesn't exist right now, Matt.

Levi (57:11.083)
I think...

Matt (57:13.58)
Okay. Well, if you went to Iran, they have a leadership that they believe is selected by God.

Shawn (57:20.067)
Ha

Levi (57:21.582)
I think that we should, maybe for the next, like 400 years, we only let black and brown women vote.

Matt (57:30.318)
Wow, I don't get a voice?

Levi (57:32.758)
I think that would be fantastic. They would build a magnificent world. And that seems fair, right? Like a thousand years, white men reign everything and we'll just...

Shawn (57:37.037)
By nature of what?

So Matt doesn't get to vote.

Matt (57:43.632)
You're like, this nation was founded on white male property owners get to vote. So for the next 200 years, white male property owners get no vote, only everybody else. And let's see how that goes. Sean, I think.

Shawn (57:55.843)
I like that. wrongs. I like it. Because Matt would always say to me on the mission, know, two wrongs mathematically make a right, I think.

Levi (57:58.606)
Yeah, like for 150 years or whatever. We're 300 years in, right? Yeah.

Matt (58:10.032)
Sean, that's the last word. I love that funky math. We're going to end on that. Hey, you guys, thanks so much for joining us this week. We hope you will all join us again next week. Take care.

Levi (58:11.191)
They cancel out.