Matt (00:01.508)
Hi everybody and welcome to The Latter Day Lens. I'm your host, Matt. With me is Sean and Mark is with us. Hey, good to have you Mark. It's so good to have you all with us today. Glad you're listening, glad you're joining us. And I was gonna share personal news, but I decided no, this isn't the place to share personal news. This is the place to talk about.

Marc (00:07.758)
Bye.

Shawn (00:22.014)
come on!

Marc (00:24.117)
I can't tease it.

Shawn (00:25.674)
Yeah, share your personal news.

Matt (00:25.848)
No, it's your personal news, Mark. I'm really excited about your new calling. Yeah, see? See? Now you're not so excited.

Marc (00:28.01)
well.

Shawn (00:33.791)
You

Marc (00:33.806)
You don't have to tell people I'm Elder's Quorum President.

Matt (00:37.104)
That's right. That's right. I have a feeling that the powers that be and Mark Stake listen to the podcast and like that guy is profound. He has like spiritual insights that are important.

Shawn (00:37.142)
You

Marc (00:47.947)
I do believe President Trump listens because you notice my tone shifted maybe the last couple of times over the Epstein files and now he's pushing to release them. So I think he's trying to win me back.

Matt (00:58.988)
I like it. Anything he can do to win you back makes me happy Mark because you're a good guy. And if he's doing things that make you upset, then they probably make everybody upset because like I can only imagine, right? I guess there's probably people that would like Trump no matter what he did. But yeah, but you're not one of those.

Marc (01:04.718)
Marc (01:15.501)
There's plenty.

I like everybody. I'm an open-court president. I have to love everyone now. There's a lot of love here.

Matt (01:22.976)
Okay, okay. All right, so in the mailbag, a listener wrote in, I'm not reading the entire message, but I'm reading like enough of it. So they say, love this podcast. I'm a dad of a young man, newly in teacher's quorum and the elders quorum president in an economically and politically diverse ward. The discussion about helping young men is so important to me.

As a leader, I'm constantly looking for programs, activities, and things that will engage and bring the majority of a group together. But while those events and activities are good and interesting to brainstorm, they sit on top of a critically important and under discussed bedrock, which is truly knowing and caring about the individuals in the group and the long, slow time it takes to do that. For example, starting a band in the priest quorum could have been an idea developed in a brainstorm.

but seems to have been born out of many small and individual conversations with those young men where you uncovered each of their interests or ability in music. I think that this listener is right, that that's the way Sean made that story sound. But anybody who knows Sean knows that he has a band of his own and he probably just invited the young men to be a part of his band. He's like, yeah, you guys can watch me or something. It's not really as altruistic as this guy makes it seem, right, Sean?

Shawn (02:43.166)
You don't think I did it altruistically? You think I was using cheap labor? Matt, you just told me about the book that you're about to publish and how you basically got free cheap labor from BYU kids to do all the work. So you're just assuming that I would do the same thing. I don't need cheap labor for my band.

Matt (02:44.91)
hahahahah

Use cheap flavor. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (02:59.216)
So when you're a leader of young men, Sean, you take time to get to know them?

Shawn (03:06.782)
Of course. Yeah. What's the point of being in that calling?

Marc (03:09.058)
I'd like to point out that there was not a specific denial on the charge.

Matt (03:13.648)
That's right. All he did is try to deflect, right? Sean just redirected the...

Shawn (03:14.229)
Hahaha

Shawn (03:18.222)
I don't want teenage kids in my band. want, you know, better musicians. That's what we do is, yeah, I don't need the teenage kids in my band.

Matt (03:26.064)
Shawn (03:28.766)
It was, I mean, it really was like it was interesting to see like some of the kids were guitar players and bass players and drummers. Like it was fun. But then it was fun to be like, all right, man, what do you play? I mean, I play the trumpet. Good. You're in. Bring your trumpet. And what do you play? I'm in the marching band. I do percussion. Good. Bring it. You know, it's fun to get creative. And by the end, we had this whole band of just it was misfits. And is that you're thinking of that 80s, 90s Christmas movie, aren't you?

Matt (03:50.862)
Misfits. A band of Misfits, was that the name?

Matt (03:58.36)
We're a couple of misfits. All right. Well, I think that's admirable, Sean. If you had asked me what musical instrument do you play, I could have only said the kazoo. And I don't think I would have felt comfortable in your band as the kazoo player.

Shawn (04:14.954)
Well, I would have made you comfortable, promise. You would have been loving it.

Matt (04:17.68)
I'd have been like, I can bang my hands on my chest and it sounds like percussion a little bit.

Shawn (04:22.518)
You could dance remember in the 90s ska bands always had a dedicated dancer who just that's all he did was dance That's you and our band Matt

Matt (04:28.944)
That's good. do think Mark and I were talking about this because of his calling. When I was an elders' quorum president, I felt like a total failure. I felt like as I left that calling, the quorum was in a much worse place than it was when I started in that calling. And I think it was because I was largely focused on numbers. And I think Mark and I, were talking about that a little bit, that focusing on numbers is bad leadership. And so yeah, I do think that this listener is right.

When you focus on the people, you have a better experience than when you focus on the numbers. That being said, I hear Mark's Elder Scorum is already up to 100 % church attendance, 100 % ministering. Wait, we only track ministering interviews. 100 % ministering interviews.

Shawn (05:09.312)
Ha ha ha.

Marc (05:14.293)
But I personally kept track and ministering has gone up miles within the last week.

Matt (05:18.064)
Hey, well, thanks for writing in. was this listener's first time writing in. Let us know again what you think. We like it when people write in. And again, to all of you who wrote in and we didn't read it, that's okay. You can still write to us. We appreciate it. It gives me something to do midweek where I'm like, yeah, I forgot we talked about that on the podcast.

Shawn (05:37.45)
There is something interesting about what the listener said about how they're constantly looking for programs and activities and things that will engage the majority of the group. It seems like in 2025, there's just a ton of resources out there, right? Like Leading Saints podcast, like all kinds of different things like that.

Matt (05:54.286)
I noticed you didn't mention the Young Men's Presidency podcast. I don't know. I don't know. The Seminary Teachers podcast.

Shawn (05:57.495)
Do they have a podcast? They're brand new. They're brand new, Matt. I don't think they have one.

I mean, that's an interesting topic for another day. Like how much do we rely on those? I think people in those callings have a more of an administration rule. There's a lot of just go out and be anxiously engaged in a good cause kind of saints doing a lot of cool things now that maybe are good resources too. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (06:20.623)
Yeah.

Okay, all right, well, let's talk about the news. I sometimes save topics just for who the guests are, because I have questions that I want to know their perspective on. And so this is one of those. When I read this a little while ago, I was like, I really, really wonder about this. So Sean often thinks that I have an answer in my head in advance. I really don't on this one. Okay, no, I really don't. So there's this article in the Washington Post. It would be an opinion piece, an op-ed from a therapist, I think wrote it.

Shawn (06:43.274)
Don't you? Okay.

Matt (06:52.604)
They say that many men rely heavily on their wives for social connection and emotional well-being, especially after retirement, which can leave their partners feeling overwhelmed and resentful. This is often because men's identities are closely tied to their careers and cultural norms can discourage them from seeking help or building friendships. While this can cause problems in marriages, I wonder if it causes larger problems in society. So my question is, do men

have a moral obligation to make friends, and are social connections a religious obligation?

Shawn (07:29.334)
Matt, what did President Hinckley say in 1984? What did he say? Take the whole year and take the things that he said. Tell me everything he said. What was his big takeaway that every good convert needs or every new convert needs?

Matt (07:37.84)
he said he loved Jesus.

1984?

Matt (07:46.388)
90 for me. A friend, a responsibility in nurturing with the good word of God.

Shawn (07:52.106)
Good memory. Good memory. So I mean, that.

Matt (07:53.968)
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that every that doesn't mean I have a moral obligation to make friends. That means we have a moral obligation to assign a friend to a new member.

Shawn (08:00.736)
All right.

Marc (08:03.261)
or otherwise what Joseph Smith say

Matt (08:07.588)
Ha ha ha!

Shawn (08:08.176)
in 1843. Go ahead, Matt. Tell us what he said.

Matt (08:12.304)
I go like, I'm going like a lamb to the slaughter. my god.

Marc (08:15.178)
That was 44, so first off, we need to work on your timeline. Secondly, he said that friendship is the grand principle of Mormonism.

Matt (08:18.672)
You

Shawn (08:24.495)
my goodness. Wow. Let's not let's.

Matt (08:25.274)
Wow, are you serious? So we do have a moral obligation to be friends with people, make friends.

Marc (08:27.537)
yeah.

Shawn (08:32.681)
Well, let's analyze, let's even go deeper, let's go to scripture, right? God's revealed word. Is it good, Matt, for man to be alone? Is it good?

Matt (08:40.962)
No, that's why I have a wife.

Shawn (08:43.67)
So you believe that Genesis 2.18 specifically is talking about

Matt (08:48.514)
A woman. Yeah, that's why the next thing is let's make a woman so that the man's not alone.

Shawn (08:52.992)
No, you don't think the principle of man is not good for man to be alone. Like for those who end up not getting married or take longer to get married, you don't think that this applies as well. Friendships.

Matt (09:02.448)
I've never thought about this. I yeah, I I'm actually sort of sad for my wife because I'm I'm one of these men that relies on her for a lot of these kinds of things because I really yeah, it's not that I dislike people. I really like people. From a distance.

Shawn (09:20.374)
You like to analyze people but not necessarily interact with people.

Matt (09:27.32)
I really like people as research subjects.

Shawn (09:29.588)
Yeah. What do you think, Mark? it, I mean, you quoted Joseph Smith, but what do you think? Is this a moral obligation or a religious principle?

Marc (09:39.89)
Yeah.

Matt (09:41.552)
There you go.

Shawn (09:41.578)
Yeah. There you go. That's good answer.

Marc (09:44.851)
When Mark has thinking has been done.

Shawn (09:47.328)
Yeah. So Matt, you, you in what, mean, scriptures and quotes from prophets lead us, but in what form would it take? Do you think, okay, so let's just face it, let's just be honest. We know a lot of, I know a lot of married couples who are now getting to empty nest era and let's face it, they're not the best of friends anymore because they, they delegated, they divided out the labor and kind of didn't do anything together. And now that they're forced,

faced with each other again, they're like, I don't know. And so there is this sentiment of, man, men are a lot of men I hear like, I need friends, I need a group. Like even just yesterday, a guy was like, Hey, what would you guys think about me inviting us all out to like, like a weekend trip somewhere? And I was like, why? He's like, I don't know, I just need a guy's, you know, I just need a guy's night out. I need a guy's weekend. I need I need friends. So I think it is common. It certainly is there's a need there, but

Matt (10:32.954)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (10:40.996)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (10:45.022)
I don't know actually how I feel about that part of it. What do you feel?

Marc (10:49.629)
I believe we have a moral and religious duty as priesthood holders in particular to save life and improve life wherever it is. Our intention in the grand scale is to return this earth back to the Garden of Eden with everything that we've now learned and enjoyed having lived in the fallen world. So friendship, it brightens things, it makes things better and it prevents in many cases men

committing suicide or other awful acts because there's friendship, there's support, there's something outside. It's not because you hold a man up with a woman, he'll end up killing himself. Though, depends on the woman. But it's just because there's different needs met the same way that women got to have the girls' nights out. And if they don't, well, they're probably lesbians or something. I don't know. That was a bit of a joke. I'm getting canceled soon, I'm sure of it.

Shawn (11:44.95)
As if you care about being canceled you don't care

Marc (11:48.263)
No, not much, no.

Matt (11:50.512)
But I do think that there's this element. this is the way I would kind of, my analogy that I would use. Back in the day when I was an elders quorum president in Utah, somebody come to me and say, I have this need, maybe they needed help moving, maybe. And then I would go to the quorum and the quorum would all be like, I'm busy with this family activity this weekend. I'm busy with this, I'm busy. And everybody would say to me, family first, family first. So I don't have time to help with things in the church.

And I think that a similar kind of thing can happen in marriages. If you have a good marriage and you wanna spend all your time with your wife, which I'm definitely that way. I think Sean's a little bit that way. Where it's sort of like guys are like, well, let's have some guy time. Let's hang out and have some friend time. And you're just like, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. And I think that there is an element of like, we have this obligation to get outside of ourselves and not just think about what.

What is up a flitting for me in the moment? And like, what is maybe a responsibility and obligation I have? And I think that what happens is like all service. When you start doing it, maybe there's this resistance to it, but after a while it lifts you and it makes you a better person and it makes your life more fulfilling. So I do think there's maybe this element of we should as men and I think Mark's right as women too, we should make develop friendships outside of our family because it makes life better.

but I didn't actually know that there were scriptures or teachings from prophets that supported that.

Shawn (13:14.516)
Okay, but you're persuaded, huh? That it is kind of a part of our religious duty.

Matt (13:19.822)
I think so. think it's also like, you know, as you get older and your siblings maybe aren't, you're not always the best of friends with your siblings, but you say, you know what, I should really try to like have a good relationship with my family. We're all the family of Christ. And so we should try to have good relationships with our brothers and sisters.

Marc (13:20.743)
.

Marc (13:39.491)
That's what I want to say too, is we are one family, love, friendship, unity.

Matt (13:46.83)
Mark gets the points because he had the quote from Joseph Smith that I didn't even think there was an exact quote about this, but he didn't cite it. But I bet I could go to the Joseph Smith papers and find it.

Marc (13:57.328)
And because I believe in friendship, I'm splitting the points with both of you. We all have points right now.

Shawn (14:03.926)
here nice a third of a point a third of a point that is unity

Matt (14:04.243)
That feels good. That feels so happy inside. No, no, we split the point, Sean. We each have a half. Yeah.

Shawn (14:14.285)
There's three of us

Marc (14:14.887)
three points initially given, so one point each.

Matt (14:17.484)
Okay, I like it.

Shawn (14:18.07)
Wait, I want hear Matt explain why the three of us get each a half point.

Marc (14:24.572)
No, no.

Matt (14:24.612)
No, gets all of my points and you get one point for Mark and one point for him and I get a point for Mark.

Marc (14:30.683)
Yeah, so we're all leaving right now. We all have one point.

Shawn (14:31.19)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Matt (14:32.304)
If you give points to someone Sean then it'll be unequal so go ahead if you feel like you must give points

Shawn (14:37.845)
No, I'm good. I'm good.

Marc (14:38.202)
Yeah, remember what the Lord said, that we need to be equal in earthly things before we're equal in heavenly things.

Matt (14:41.657)
You

Shawn (14:42.134)
OK.

Matt (14:45.232)
Go ahead and give points if you need to, Sean. See how that feels. Okay, okay. All right, so there's this recent survey that showed that majorities of US adults express a great deal or quite a lot of confidence in just three institutions. Small business, 70%, military is 62%, and science is 61%. Now, whenever I hear that people like science, I think that they're really saying political science.

Shawn (14:47.523)
I'm good. I'm good with the points.

Matt (15:14.67)
So if that's not what they meant, it doesn't matter. I'm hearing that people like me. The lowest rated institutions are big business, Congress, and television news. Each of those have confidence ratings of around 10%. Newspapers in the criminal justice system are also really, really low. Back in the day, Americans had a lot of trust in newspapers and television news. What has changed? Now know Sean, there's no latter day lens to this, but I wanna know.

What has changed that people don't trust the news anymore?

Shawn (15:46.132)
I think what happened was capitalism happened. Capitalism happened. became so much easier for many people to create news agencies, right? Or news sources. And anytime you get that much competition, it's going to capitalism will demand that people create things for money. And that's

Matt (15:48.869)
What?

Matt (16:07.376)
But those news organizations they're creating are not real news. They're not even reporting anything. They're just...

Shawn (16:13.622)
Right. Yeah, because when there's so many, back in the day when there were three, it was contained, right? And you could just compete on how you presented things fairly. then the fourth comes along and goes, man, I gotta find a segment of the country that I can be different at. Oh, well, how about I'll talk to just the Republicans? And then the other side goes, man, there's that agency over there just talking to nothing but Republicans, talk to Democrats. And all of a sudden you got partisan leanings, right?

And all of a sudden you start realizing, I can make money because they do want a source like all those Republicans. They do just want to hear what we have to say. So we can make money at this. It became capitalism. That's all.

Matt (16:56.304)
Well then that would suggest, Sean, that capitalism's bad for society because it makes it so that people don't trust good information.

Shawn (17:02.91)
No, it suggests freedom and a free society is good because there's been a lot of good to that too. there's no one says capitalism is perfect. There's going to be downsides to capitalism, but that's freedom. That's okay.

Matt (17:14.672)
Hmm. Mark, what do you say? Why do you think it's changed?

Marc (17:19.127)
All the points to Sean. That was, that's it because for example, CNN knows they'll make money with a certain political bent, although they stopped working pretty quick after a minute, but for a while there that was, and you can say, the people need to know that that's not real news and most do, but they don't care. They're not going to sit there and

Matt (17:20.964)
Really?

Shawn (17:20.99)
Mmm.

Marc (17:42.735)
let me get to this particular organ. They don't care. They just want to get it quick and easy. And CNN says, here you go, little chiron on your phone. Trump has murdered John Bolton's mustache. And it's like, I knew it. I knew he was doing something. And you know, because CNN doesn't want to seem bad at the very end, there's a single sentence of this might be a little exaggeration. We'll let you know.

Shawn (17:54.09)
Ha

Matt (18:05.648)
Well, but what about newspapers? There's nothing like, there's no incentive to do that in newspapers. Well, so that's the thing. So nobody's reading newspapers anymore. And so they just don't trust them because they don't know anything about them.

Marc (18:10.339)
It's 2025.

Marc (18:17.775)
Nah.

There's no time, no need on your phone immediately. I don't have to wait for two or three days to find out that Mickey Rourke had another plastic surgery. My phone tells me immediately.

Matt (18:30.704)
Huh, it's bad. I actually don't know the answer to this. I'll trust you guys. Like I, I study the media quite a lot and the way it influences political opinions and things like that. I'm baffled. I trust tele, not, not cable news, but like ABC, NBC, CBS, especially PBS and the newspapers like New York times, wall street journal, Washington post. Like to me, that is the best source of information of what's really going on in America.

Shawn (19:00.11)
But Matt, even the ones that we trust more, like PBS, you can't deny that they have clearly, they clearly have chosen a side and they lean that way. And it's because, yes.

Matt (19:00.144)
So I'm baffled.

Matt (19:05.07)
Yeah.

Marc (19:11.833)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (19:11.952)
PBS?

Marc (19:14.351)
Well, don't worry, Sean, because liberal leaning elitists have done studies that said, it's not biased. You guys, you're just wrong. But if you really want the news, look no further than this. The holy Bible. That's right.

Shawn (19:21.866)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (19:21.966)
That's right.

Matt (19:25.796)
the Holy Bible. I actually did author a study that said there's no bias in the newspaper coverage.

Marc (19:32.778)
And who do you support typically?

Matt (19:35.12)
I want reporters. want there are like legit good reporters that go out there and they interview people. They go to the scene of whatever is going on. They find the facts and they present them as best they can. And sure, they might have some kind of a bias politically, but it's they're not trying to bring that out in this story. The purpose of the story isn't to change your political opinion.

The purpose of the story is to inform you because that's what they're trying to do is inform you.

Shawn (20:05.974)
Yeah, I wonder how, but I don't know. I may have changed my mind on this. I don't know that today many people can ignore that bias. I think it's a subconscious bias. And so by nature of a leadership at PBS, for example, hiring who they hire, you get this unconscious bias there and you get confirmation bias in return. And so now all of a sudden you've got this machine that feeds itself and

Matt (20:28.079)
Yeah.

Shawn (20:35.306)
Yeah, I don't know, man. I just think there's no way of getting around it. And so probably it's better to have more options out there.

Marc (20:43.396)
And was not a study back in the 16 election where that like 96 % of new people who donated money to politicians donated to Hillary, something like that. was like 90, 96 % gave to Hillary and a little whisper, one or two gave to Trump.

Matt (21:00.675)
in 2016.

Marc (21:01.877)
I think so. remember something about that. obviously don't have paper on me because I'm in the closet with a bunch of Revolutionary War stuff, so...

Shawn (21:08.768)
Yeah.

Matt (21:09.84)
The handful of journalists that I really trust don't actually vote or participate in elections because they don't want it to influence the way that they cover the news.

Marc (21:20.867)
are apostates since the prophet and apostles encouraged us to and participate. So you're listening to anti-Christ. Okay, well, I'll take it.

Matt (21:27.152)
Well that makes sense, I spend a lot of my time with Antichrist.

Shawn (21:31.318)
Matt, Matt, but I do agree that the answer is it's not organizations, it's journalists. So do you know who Anna Kasparian is? So Anna Kasparian is a journalist who began with the Young Turks. Do know who the Young Turks are?

Matt (21:43.524)
No.

Matt (21:51.32)
Yeah, you've told me that they're left leaning. I show clips from the young Turks in my classes from time to time because they'll talk about really, really like in-depth political things, but I've never like watched them like as a news source.

Marc (21:54.023)
BOOPIE

Marc (22:05.292)
They are LARX.

Shawn (22:05.44)
So sh-

Matt (22:07.353)
okay.

Shawn (22:08.106)
Yeah, but Anna Kasparian has proven to be a true journalist. Like she doesn't sometimes pretty often doesn't agree with like the main narrative of the young Turks. And as the freedom, they give her the freedom to speak about it however she wants. Like she's ranting and raving for years against Gavin Newsom. Well, that's not party line. The young Turks kind of claim that they're not bipartisan. They do kind of claim they're anti establishment like that. But

Anika Sparian, I think I trust her to be a journalist. really like and she'll often change her mind and be like, look, I was wrong on that thing. I think she's truly is seeking truth.

Matt (22:43.728)
But what you're describing is an opinion person, not a reporter. Does Annika Spurgeon go out and gather news or is she just talking about stuff reporter? Yeah, so I think this is the challenge is that there's this distinction that people think that all like, if I go to Fox News, who at Fox News is actually reporting news? None of them. They're all opinion people, right? MSNBC, same thing. None of them are uncovering news. They're just opinion people.

Shawn (22:51.318)
Yeah, that's true. No, no, no, you're right. She's a pig.

Matt (23:13.796)
And so I think the challenge is that they say, I don't trust these news people, but the people they're talking about aren't actually news people. They're just talking about opinion people.

Shawn (23:18.326)
Okay. Okay, but who is that girl journalist that you said you really liked on PBS or NPR or something like that? No, the other one. So Tamar Keith, you challenged me a year ago and I committed and I went and I followed her and I agree, I like her. think there's an altruistic approach to journalism, but just like we were saying, there's no escaping her either conscious or unconscious bias.

Matt (23:26.582)
Nina Totenberg, Tamara Keith.

Matt (23:43.202)
She's definitely a leftist. She's on the left.

Shawn (23:46.484)
That's right. And so I don't see her as like a clean, pure journalist because she's definitely has opinions in there and she only reports on the things that kind of further her agenda. I think she's altruistic. think she thinks she's doing honest, very balanced reporting, but it's not. It's not.

Matt (24:05.712)
Sure, but at least she's, but would you say that she's giving you misinformation? Would you say she's telling you things that are not true?

Shawn (24:13.686)
I mean, I remember the whole Biden when Biden was getting old and everyone was freaking out about it. I definitely remember her kind of making sure not to talk about the things that would. She wasn't speaking the truth out of plain sight. She was purposely holding back. So I think that's the same thing. Yeah, sure.

Marc (24:18.434)
.

Matt (24:31.035)
huh. Yeah, I guess. Okay, that makes sense.

Marc (24:34.23)
And that's probably how a lot of the studies say, they're not biased because it just says, what do they say? Well, they say something unbiased, but they're not covering everything.

Shawn (24:43.264)
That's right.

Matt (24:43.77)
So it's the things that are unsaid. Yeah. Okay.

Shawn (24:46.998)
Probably, yeah. Right, so Matt is not the answer then. Let's just have more options. And that way, let's go, okay, I can clearly see that these over here are biased and agenda-based, and these over here are as well. And then there's a few that pop up. Like right now, the company 1443, I love it. Every day I can read their stuff knowing it's totally unbiased.

Marc (24:47.187)
It's ass. It's the notes you don't play.

Matt (24:50.49)
So then we-

Matt (25:10.864)
Well, so the thing that concerns me most is the lack of trust in institutions that Americans have generally, right? When the top three institutions, military, science, and business, is only 60 % and 70%, that means there's a third of Americans that don't trust any institutions. And to me, that's the most worrying thing of all, that Americans are losing faith in the institutions that make society work.

Shawn (25:32.128)
Why does that worry you?

Shawn (25:36.822)
Why does that worry you? Isn't it healthy to have some skeptics to challenge things? Otherwise, you you can't give Carpe-Launch freedom to these big agencies to do whatever they want. It's good to be a skeptic.

Matt (25:49.306)
But if I ask you, but if I say, Sean, what do you think about the criminal justice system? How much confidence do you have in the criminal justice system? shouldn't there be, but shouldn't you say, I'm very confident in the criminal justice system? Do they get some things wrong? Sure. But by and large, like generally it's doing a good job.

Shawn (25:59.35)
60.

Shawn (26:11.99)
60 70 %

Matt (26:13.818)
Well, like, well, yeah, okay.

Shawn (26:17.812)
I don't know, but I think that's just human nature. The failures, the 30 % failures is just human nature. Like there's not going to be a perfect.

Matt (26:26.96)
Well, I'm just saying this is something that's relatively recent. Like the Carter administration is when Americans started losing trust and started expressing a lack of confidence in institutions. And it's just getting worse and worse and worse. And that always scares me because if you say, I don't trust the criminal justice system, then somebody can come along and say, I'm gonna do this thing and it's gonna improve the criminal justice system. And you don't really know if it is or isn't. But since your position is one of, don't really trust them or I don't really have confidence in them.

you'll let people get away with dismantling the institutions that keep us safe.

Marc (27:01.18)
I got it. This was a whole long thing for you to say that Trump is the devil. I got it. Orange man bad.

Matt (27:05.423)
No, if I wanted to say that, I would just say that. It's not just Trump though. Like I go, like when I travel around to different places, people frequently talk about the lack of confidence they have in their local leaders or their state leaders. And then these politicians will say, hey, I'm just gonna dismantle everything, change everything. Who's that guy that's running for mayor of New York City? Like there's a guy who's like,

Shawn (27:05.512)
Hahaha

Matt (27:33.486)
let's tear everything down kind of stuff running for mayor of New York City. And he's very popular because people in New York are like, yeah, let's just tear it all down. We don't like it.

Shawn (27:42.752)
See, Matt's just a true conservative. He just wants to conserve the institutions. Right, Matt?

Matt (27:48.976)
I believe they keep us safe, right? If somebody comes along and says, let everybody out of jail, we feel so bad for these people that are in jail, they're the victims and not the perpetrators of crime, then I say, well, that's gonna cause problems. Let's not do that.

Shawn (28:02.518)
But this truly, this truly is the conservative side of you. You do believe this is the definition of conservatism. Really, right? The existing values and principles and institutions that have made us great. Let's not change them. Let's not radically change them. Let's not even slowly change them, right?

Matt (28:09.888)
Mmm. Yeah. I guess.

Marc (28:22.365)
even fix anything.

Matt (28:24.272)
I like that Mark defined conservatism in that way. I give Mark the points for that. That's great. All right. So this one, you're right, Sean. Sean said that all of this stuff is sort of like about men today, but okay. Now I see that I see where you're saying that from, Sean. Okay. Okay. So this is, this is a story. This is from the BBC. We're going international for this news.

Shawn (28:24.842)
hahahaha

Hahaha

Matt (28:53.956)
Metta recently shut down a Facebook group called Mia Mogli, which means my wife. If you speak Italian, you're not gonna like the way I said Mia Mogli. But anyhow, on this Facebook group, men would share intimate, often non-consensual images of women. There's the article about this group notes that some members of the group explicitly made comments expressing violent intentions, such as wanting to rape the women in the photos. There's an author quoted as saying that the group demonstrates how deeply

the linking of violence to sexuality is ingrained in our culture. Another person echoes this and says, the activity was, what was happening in this group was virtual rape and said, this toxic idea of masculinity must be fought. The article also draws parallels to the French person we talked about before who allowed a lot of people to rape his wife, talking about how this illustrates that a man's belief that he can control his wife and link sexuality with oppression is not an isolated incident.

So we're going to talk about toxic masculinity because that's what they're saying.

Shawn (29:57.11)
Okay, no, listen, listen. If the three examples that you gave is the definition of toxic masculinity, I mean, that's pretty extreme. If that's the examples, then there's no one for toxic masculinity, right? We're definitely all against toxic masculinity if those crazy extreme examples that you gave are the definition. Is that really the definition?

Matt (30:17.604)
Yeah, know. I put a link to the Wikipedia page on toxic masculinity, it is toxic masculinity is used in a lot of different ways. Of course, it's not just these examples, but toxic masculinity is this idea that men need to control women, that men are like innately threatened by women and things like that. the question I have, I know that everybody's opposed to toxic masculinity, but the question is, is that something that is natural?

to men biologically, it's like something they're born with, or is it something that people are taught? And if it's something that people are taught, does the gospel play a role in reinforcing or suppressing toxic masculinity?

Shawn (30:50.069)
No.

Shawn (30:54.624)
Yes.

Shawn (31:03.444)
Well, first, I'd say I don't know why we're separating men and women, right? The scriptures teach that all humanity, male and female, are fallen, subject to sin. And because of that fall, we all like men and women have traits like pride, selfishness, lust, the desire to dominate, the desire to be prideful. It's.

Matt (31:20.174)
Women have that? I don't know, think domination is like a man thing from the toxic masculinity literature.

Shawn (31:23.85)
I don't think scripture teaches that that's uniquely male.

Marc (31:28.316)
Most of the dominatrixes I've seen on law and order SVU were women.

Shawn (31:32.63)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Matt (31:35.082)
That's helpful, Mark. Thank you.

Shawn (31:38.378)
I mean, I guess you could argue that the way that women express their fallen natures is maybe a little bit differently than the way men express their fallen natures, right? Like men are obviously more physically violent, but not 100%, not completely, but I don't see why you would...

Matt (31:52.878)
Yeah, and men, don't you think that the gospel teaches men, like in this like men are to preside and control and like run things and be in charge of things, that that reinforces this idea that like the man should control the woman and that sort of stuff?

Shawn (32:11.488)
No, it doesn't reinforce it. mean, you're asking if people misinterpret that, use that as an excuse to be abusive. Is that what you're asking?

Matt (32:17.421)
Okay.

Marc (32:18.333)
I

Matt (32:25.038)
I've heard many, many arguments about how the way that men are taught to be men in the church reinforces this idea of toxic masculinity.

Shawn (32:33.449)
I've never felt that or seen that. Have you personally?

Matt (32:37.284)
Well, I don't... You go ahead, Mark. You say what you were gonna say.

Shawn (32:40.647)
Hahaha

Marc (32:42.75)
yes, I forgot what I was going to say. No, coming back. Hold on. Toxic masculinity. Yeah. yes. It was a Facebook reel I saw that's so that's the best news, the most informative as always. it was about Will Ferrell saying, you know, we, we men have been in charge a long time. Can you women please take over? And, the guy.

Shawn (32:47.328)
Sorry, Mike.

Matt (32:52.196)
Yeah, this whole idea that men are in charge, are to preside.

Shawn (33:01.461)
Yeah

Marc (33:11.249)
then responds to it by just saying, have you noticed how that now there's more women in control and now it's getting worse? We were pretty good for a while.

Marc (33:22.757)
I'd contribute to this actual discussion. Sorry about that.

Shawn (33:22.912)
that was his voice.

Matt (33:23.113)
Matt (33:29.424)
I think that, I do think that there is a bit of toxic masculinity that is innate. I think that young

Shawn (33:37.662)
Is there feminine toxicity?

Marc (33:41.085)
Talk soon.

Matt (33:41.229)
And I mean, to the extent that I believe that gender differences are biological, I think that women are more nurturing than men, at least.

Shawn (33:49.428)
You don't think that there's such a thing as toxic femininity.

Matt (33:53.433)
I don't-

Marc (33:54.685)
There are people and opposite in all things.

Shawn (33:59.886)
So only men can be toxic is what you're saying. Women is just impossible. The women are there's no

Matt (33:59.888)
Yeah?

Marc (34:04.561)
Women are angels despite the fact that they tease each other till they develop eating disorders. That's good, that's natural.

Shawn (34:10.144)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Matt (34:12.656)
So it wouldn't be masculinity with women, right? Women have their other things that they do, but this desire to control and to like dominate and cause physical harm, I think that's more a man thing than a woman thing.

Marc (34:22.8)
Well, you...

Shawn (34:24.894)
Okay, I can agree with you that there's different expressions between men and women as a result of the fall that we live in, right? There's different sins that maybe one or the other is more prone to. So if you're simply trying to say that you're defining in 2025 toxic masculinity as men try to physically dominate or sexually dominate, that's what you're trying to say.

Matt (34:46.98)
Yes. And that's what this article is. When people talk about toxic masculinity, that's what they're talking about, right?

Shawn (34:52.214)
Okay, that's fine. I think that's that's probably clear that men are more Sure, whatever you want to call it toxic masculinity Yeah, but you can't you can't just brush under the rug the fact that there is then by that definition toxic femininity in the types of I guess behaviors as a result of the fall and sin that women can Can perform as well that are just as damaging to society?

Matt (35:19.056)
Okay, but does our church or does the gospel socialize people into normalizing, right, this sort of behavior, saying things like boys will be boys and.

Shawn (35:23.625)
Okay.

Okay, look, okay, I've got All right. I've got an answer for that then. Okay, so this goes deep though I think like anything Matt if if a member of our church a man or a woman decides that they're gonna be a member in Name only they're not gonna do the things that really are taught over and over again like feast upon the words of Christ Pray a lot seek for revelation fill the spirit, right? And I do believe that there are many many cultural members of the church who don't even crack the scriptures You don't know the doctrine

then sure, think that could probably creep in. But anyone who does even the slightest truly intentioned search of scripture and doctrine, they're going to find the opposite message. They're going to quickly find that both men and women are commanded and invited to come to Christ or come to God through Christ and that the ordinances and principles of the gospel and of salvation and of exaltation are equally offered to both and that the end result is equal, completely equal.

Men and women have a completely equal exaltation. It is no greater or less than the other one. So I'll go with your little thing here, but I'm going to say that it's only cultural members of the church who might get stuck in influence by that kind of language. Anyone who understands the doctrine, I don't think would.

Matt (36:40.14)
Okay, my family tells me that I am a sexist feminist in that I believe in trying to help my wife and my daughter, like become the best versions of themselves. And I believe that about all women and all people, honestly, I want to help them all become the best versions of themselves. I don't think that there should be anything in society that holds them back, that makes them feel less than. And so I think that what you're saying, Sean, is it's similar to that, right? Like the gospel teaches that

men and women are equal in the sight of God and he doesn't favor one over the other. And challenges that we have in life are more about individual challenges than they are about sex or gender or something like that. At the same time, I strongly hold to these gender norms that come from my upbringing. And I don't know if that's the church that gave me these like sexist ideas or if that's my family or my society.

Shawn (37:36.16)
What's an example?

Marc (37:36.313)
Well, I was going say the question is what is a sexist thing because one man's sexism is another man's treasure.

Matt (37:45.36)
Well, like, so for instance, in the case of my kids, like, I'm really, really hard on my boys because I'm like, you have to provide for your family someday. You have to learn to like, I just say you have to be a man or you have to man up and stop crying, stop belly aching, like be tough, like handle these. And I would never treat my daughter that way because I'd be like, no, no, like, you're precious, you're tender. I got to be so sweet to you.

Shawn (37:45.982)
my god.

Marc (38:13.007)
That's awful. I can't believe you're like that. Of all the things I've said, that's the most offensive I've heard. My god.

Matt (38:15.184)
But they tell me that that's sexism.

Matt (38:22.928)
You

Shawn (38:23.485)
Hehehehehe

Matt (38:25.818)
But my wife is like, you need to be hard, just as hard on your daughter as you are on your sons. And I say, I'm like, but they have a different role in life because I think the church teaches us. Young men have a responsibility someday to provide for their family, to preside, right? It's in the proclamation to the world. A father's place is to preside, provide. A woman's place is to nurture the children, right? And so.

Shawn (38:29.974)
Well, that's interesting.

Shawn (38:49.504)
But Matt, this is an interesting discussion. I'm not sure if I like how you're linking it to the topic of toxic masculinity. I understand you're trying to say maybe there is this built in messaging around what you just described and that can lead some people to toxic masculinity. Is that the point that you're trying to, how you're connecting it?

Matt (39:06.522)
Sure, so the fact that I don't take it to toxic masculinity, I'm willing to say sure, that's the gospel of Jesus Christ telling me not to be that way. But if there's this undercurrent in our culture or in the way that we talk about things in the church, then that could lead people to toxic masculinity, right, in a different situation.

Shawn (39:27.156)
Yeah, I guess I'm going to go back to what I kind of really at my core believe, which is, again, what's the whole point and purpose of this life? Is it to get to the top of that podium at the church and who gets to sit up on that stand? Like, I don't think I'll never be a bishop. Just not in my nature. It's just not. It's just I'm not I'm not that kind of personality. I don't think so. I don't think so. But if I never have the opportunity to sit up on the stand.

Matt (39:43.632)
Hmm

Marc (39:43.866)
That's you'll get called as bishop.

Matt (39:49.486)
That's right.

Shawn (39:56.342)
I still have salvation and exaltation and that's all that matters to me. Now, I know the argument on the other side is, yeah, but you could, you could be up on the stand, whereas a woman maybe couldn't be up on the stand. And I don't understand that. I don't, I get it. I get that that can lead to problems. But in the end, every woman that exists, every daughter of God who is invited for salvation and exaltation has every, the same exact opportunities that I do for salvation and exaltation.

And isn't that all that matters? Like, why get stuck in the temporal administrative nuances that really don't matter nearly as much as salvation and exaltation?

Matt (40:35.854)
No, I understand that point, but I think there's this other side of it. So there's this sister in my ward. She's been divorced for I think at least 20 years and she's never remarried. She still loves her husband and he still loves her and they're close to each other. And when she had a stroke recently, he came and took care of her and helped her through it. Like they love each other, but she's divorced from him because he is a controlling man and she can't live with him. And so she's like,

Shawn (41:00.694)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (41:03.586)
She's like, I'm happy to give him a chance. And every so often she'll be like, well, maybe, but he's too controlling. And so then she's like, I'm not gonna be married to somebody that's that controlling. There's something aside from maybe just his maybe natural tendency to be controlling. I think there's these things in our culture maybe, or maybe it's the gospel that makes it so that men feel like it's okay to be a little bit controlling, because somebody's gotta be in charge. And so it might as well be me. And I just wonder like.

Is that the church doing that or is that just people? We all know controlling men in the church, controlling husbands.

Shawn (41:37.366)
Do you think it's as prevalent today as it was 50 years ago, 80 years ago, 100 years ago?

Matt (41:43.204)
Well, I think the church leaders have definitely spoken out against it, right? And there's a lot of talk of abuse and how that's wrong and unjustified. But I also say they wouldn't be talking about it if it wasn't prevalent in the church.

Shawn (41:56.566)
Wow, interesting.

Matt (41:57.872)
Okay, let's get to the big question. Okay, so I'm not gonna read the whole thing in Doctrine and Covenants section 105, but I was reading section 105 recently, and this is about they lose Jackson County, Missouri, they lose the lands there. And in the first couple of verses, it talks about how, I'll just read these ones, right? Verse four, says, they do not impart of their substance as becomeeth saints to the poor and afflicted among them.

and are not united according to the union required of the law of the celestial kingdom. And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom. Otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself." And then later on in the chapter, verse 32, maybe it's 31, says, no, is it 32? Yeah, at the end of 32 it says, therefore let us become subject unto her laws. So,

To me, this is similar to what Sean was saying in the past where he's like, you know, the law of consecration is great, but we live in a world where we can't really live the law of consecration. If we could, fine, but the Lord is sort of saying here, since the world is not there, then let's be subject to the world's laws. So this is the big question I wanna discuss today. Is the Lord telling us, don't try to live the law of consecration because the world's not ready for it, so just follow the laws of the world, or?

Is he trying to tell us that we should use our influence to change the laws in the world so that we can live the law of consecration?

Shawn (43:32.424)
Yeah, think the answer is pretty clear. I think it's an easy answer. Like the scriptures do never do suggest that Zion is to be built through external political force. There's just nowhere. In fact, consecration completely depends on agency, making covenants, willing sacrifices, right? It's D &C 8219. Every man seeking, every man will seek by their own free will and choice, the interest of his neighbor, and then doing all things which are with an eye single to the glory of God.

Matt (43:35.941)
What?

Shawn (44:02.398)
It's individuals seeking that, right? Legislation can't produce consecration.

Marc (44:09.367)
I had a different approach. I thought you were going to say what I was going to say and then you went the other way. So I think we cannot use law to make the law of consecration, but I have covenanted to accept and thereby live the law of consecration. And I would posit it is entirely incumbent upon us now to live it and practice it as much as possible. The idea that it's not enforced is, I would believe, misnomer.

It is enforced upon those who have accepted the baptismal covenant. Everything now belongs to God and you are on his team. Just do what he tells you. So as such, if I'm in a position to create law, no, I'm not going to force everyone to give me their property so that I can distribute it to the poor because I'm not a, you know, Nancy Pelosi, but I would want to create a situation in society where there's room for such a law to exist. There's a room for such compassion.

I don't want to use tax dollars to save the homeless, but I wouldn't mind tax dollars being used to support people who are struggling, perhaps with homelessness, perhaps with drugs, with food insecurity, if you want to sound PC.

Matt (45:26.1)
I do want to sound PC. Okay, so what about this, Mark? What if I create a system that I say all of your excess money is going to go to the poor? You can choose to give it to them yourself or you can choose to give it to me in taxes. What? That's the way you just described.

Marc (45:28.247)
A big... Never mind.

Marc (45:41.803)
Wrong.

Marc (45:45.183)
Not at all. I'm saying allow a situation where if the church really wanted to do that right now, there's going to be a lot of legal hickey-bicky and there's going to be a lot of lawsuits and this and that. could create more of a society where we, hey, how do I want to word this? Nationalism and socialism. I'm sure it's never been done before. There's a way we could probably do it. We could call it the National Socialist Workers Party of America. I...

Did I do something wrong again?

Matt (46:16.532)
You

Marc (46:17.847)
Why do I do this every time?

Matt (46:20.4)
So you're saying we should allow space for individuals if they wanted to create a communal society. They could do so without the interference of the government, but not something that compels everybody to participate.

Shawn (46:27.626)
which they can now.

Marc (46:30.823)
And, and I would say that a politician is in a position to represent his or her people and they should support and help their people. Ergo, if you are the mayor of Salt Lake city, can you shut the heck up about having a rainbow flag and instead look at the 4,000 people living on the sidewalks and do something for them. You are getting tax dollars. We're probably never going to get rid of the income tax or the state tax or the all those. So you have the money.

Use it for the good of mankind, use it for the good of your people instead. We spend a lot of money to redesign so we can have a rainbow flag. Yep. That's all.

Matt (47:09.52)
I would actually, it's gonna shock you guys. I would take the side that says we should use the government to implement the law of consecration. That that's the appropriate use of power. It's fine, like back in the day there were not strong enough members of the church politically to enforce God's will upon the people. But there are now, and we definitely could do it in Utah, and we probably could pull it off in Idaho.

Shawn (47:17.62)
Why does that shock us? Is your name Matt, Miles? Huh?

Shawn (47:34.73)
So Matt, okay, but Matt.

Matt (47:36.814)
and we owe it to the world to show them the right way to live.

Shawn (47:40.382)
Matt, Matt is, is consecration of covenant offering.

Matt (47:45.52)
it can be, sure.

Shawn (47:47.328)
Can you, so you want to compel people to make a covenant offering. Is it truly a covenant offering if you're compelled to do it? No, it's not because you're not using your agency.

Matt (47:51.248)
Correct.

Yes.

Marc (47:55.029)
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ whether they want to or not.

Matt (47:59.696)
That's right.

Shawn (48:03.144)
out of out of willingness out of willingness because my will will be there I will desire it I will choose to do it

Marc (48:10.001)
I have two points maybe. This is dangerous. Number one from Orson Hyde, talked about the people who so want to be I'm independent. I will do it of my own accord. He says that the last time we heard people pushing so strong about I'm independent, they were cast out with Lucifer.

Matt (48:28.804)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marc (48:30.121)
And then the other point I forgot. So once again.

Shawn (48:32.593)
Hahaha!

Matt (48:33.776)
That's a good point.

Marc (48:34.549)
I need some of ginseng

Matt (48:38.352)
I'm

Shawn (48:40.342)
Matt, under a secular government, there's no way that a secular government can come under compulsory redistribution of wealth, change the hearts of its citizens to become Zion. Oh, really? Where? Where does it happen? Russia, USSR, Cuba, Cuba.

Matt (48:55.664)
It happens all the time, Sean.

In the 1960s, most Americans thought that interracial marriage was immoral and it was the wrong thing to do in society. Then we passed laws legalizing it, allowing people to do it, and now attitudes have changed about interracial marriage.

Marc (48:59.925)
no evidence he just thought that's it

Shawn (49:16.254)
or maybe it wasn't the laws that politicians passed. Maybe it was the marching of really good, amazing people like Martin Luther King. And it was the messaging that they put out there. Maybe it wasn't the government's compulsory attempts and actions, Matt. Maybe it was the preaching and the sharing of truth by really good people.

Marc (49:25.46)
He was like.

Matt (49:33.508)
Wilber?

We're finding out about that right now as the Supreme Court undoes a lot of the civil rights acts of the 1960s and the states pass laws that are restrictive like they were back in the 1960s. I actually think it's the laws, Sean. It's not the people. The people change with the laws.

Marc (49:49.438)
That was a.

Shawn (49:50.89)
Martin Luther King has was not he played no role. It was it was those glorious politicians who changed who finally after how many years changed Jim Crow laws.

Matt (50:00.464)
But specifically it was the loving case, the Supreme Court loving case where they said it is unconstitutional to ban interracial marriage. And from that moment till now, attitudes about interracial marriage have changed.

Shawn (50:12.97)
but you're giving all the credit to what 12 people on a judiciary committee?

Matt (50:16.74)
What a shock. What a surprise that I would do that. That I would say that the government laws have consequences. Okay, Mark, you get the last word.

Marc (50:21.172)
I think that the more we draw closer to Christ, the further we draw from politicians, politics, partisanship. I have been diligently reorienting my discipleship and my political views in the last several months, and I don't care about the politicians anymore. I don't care about the bias. It's there on both sides. And anyone who says I'm being a partisan hack by saying that

Shawn (50:23.476)
Marc (50:50.748)
is a partisan hack. Because it's both sides. Both sides have no interest in helping anyone but themselves. They lie in their pockets. They lie in their friends' pockets. It's not a one or the other. And the fact that the listener right now thinks, he's becoming a Democrat. No. Or the other one who thinks he's becoming a Republican more. No, it's neither. It's only in Christ can we find hope and salvation.

Matt (51:15.012)
Hey, that's great. That was a good last word, Mark. We should let you do that more. Yeah. Hey, thanks for joining us, everybody. We'll talk to you again next week.

Shawn (51:16.096)
That is Latter-day Lens. That is Latter-day Lens right there.

Marc (51:23.72)
Bye!