Matt (00:01.135)
Hello everybody and welcome to The Latter Day Lens. I am your host, Matt, and with me today is Sean, and we have a new guest with us today. We're so excited to have you with us, Linda. Linda served with us in Ukraine. She was, I'm gonna say you were older than me technically, but in terms of like maturity, you kind of looked up to me a lot, right? Is that the way you would describe that, Linda?

Shawn (00:22.786)
Ha ha ha ha!

Linda Stahr (00:24.493)
Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm older for sure, but like that was the time, right?

Matt (00:25.761)
You

Matt (00:30.061)
You're like that Elder Miles is such a good example to me of just both like spirituality and like wisdom and wow, I'm glad he's a mission leader because he.

Shawn (00:39.426)
Let's hang, while we're on the, Linda, while we're on the topic, let's just get it out there. Who of all the missionaries you served with would you say you looked up to the most?

Linda Stahr (00:41.505)
And man can he walk.

Linda Stahr (00:46.805)
Ahem.

Linda Stahr (00:51.297)
Good grief, I don't know. you know, I can tell you right now. I can tell you right now, right now, right now, just because he's the tallest person ever served with Elderdark.

Matt (00:52.311)
Yeah, that's rough,

Shawn (00:52.898)
Come on, come on, come on, come on.

Shawn (00:58.688)
No! they're dark.

Matt (00:58.907)
huh. What? yeah, so that would be Sam, right? He used to host the podcast with us. We all look up to Sam.

Linda Stahr (01:01.917)
Like Sirius, because he's tallest.

Linda Stahr (01:07.969)
Yeah, Sam, I don't know. I looked up to a lot of missionaries, just a lot. I have fond memories.

Matt (01:12.279)
Yeah. But in terms of spirituality and maturity and wisdom and like,

Shawn (01:17.166)
Let's just say it all on the count of three. We know the answer on the count of three. Ready? One, two, three. Elder Rekert. Oh, Julie. Sister Rasmussen. Awesome.

Matt (01:20.91)
You

Linda Stahr (01:21.601)
Julie.

Matt (01:24.553)
hahahahah

Linda Stahr (01:29.013)
Or Tracy or Tracy. Tracy Miller, know, Helen Saar. Yeah, she did. Yeah, I just saw her. She's in DC.

Matt (01:31.383)
Yeah, she married Elder Mellor, right? Yeah. Helen Saar. I thought she was a professor at Utah Tech. Is that where Helen Saar?

Linda Stahr (01:43.351)
is that the Helen's? She's in St. George.

Shawn (01:44.878)
Okay, I'm going to officially stop us here because we're boring our audience to death.

Matt (01:48.525)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're not gonna like reminisce about everybody on the mission. I know if you know this Linda, but words of affirmation is my love language. So I like to start every podcast with some words of affirmation and Sean denies it to me every time, but I thought maybe I could. Okay, okay. But I thought we could sneak it in a little bit. Okay, so we're gonna.

Linda Stahr (01:50.997)
Yeah, they're all doing great. They're all good.

Shawn (02:02.024)
I do not. I've told the whole world that you are my favorite missionary. The greatest example.

changed my life.

Linda Stahr (02:09.217)
All right, well, I look up to both of you as missionaries. So how about that? Keep it even. For different reasons, one for peacekeeping and one because it's like always, we got to keep focused on the Lord. Come on. If we keep the Lord in our mind every day and our actions every day, we're going to go places. So yeah, we went places. Yeah.

Matt (02:13.945)
That's awesome.

Shawn (02:14.51)
You

Matt (02:24.27)
and our

Shawn (02:29.304)
Yeah, we did. We did.

Matt (02:30.551)
And our listener knows exactly which of us was which of those people. It's it's everybody knows whenever we need to bring spirituality into the podcast or the latter day perspective on things, we can count on me to find scriptures and doctrine. Okay, well, we're going to we're going to skip the mailbag this week because Linda's with us and I'm excited to talk about the topics that we've that I sent out. Okay, so here's our first topic.

Shawn (02:35.182)
You

Linda Stahr (02:35.507)
I'm sure.

Matt (02:57.647)
You know what, I haven't even looked at these in a week. So I hope they're still good. They're gonna be good. Okay. Okay, so Professor Marcy Shore, she's a Yale historian specializing in Eastern European history. She recently relocated to the University of Toronto due to concerns about rising fascism in the United States under Donald Trump. She invoked the historical parallel of Nazi Germany stating, the lesson of 1933 is you get out sooner rather than later.

Shawn (03:01.198)
They're good. They're good.

Linda Stahr (03:02.753)
There's something.

Matt (03:27.673)
She expressed fears that America is headed to civil war, citing the country's habituation to violence and proliferation of firearms combined with new political permissiveness. She and her colleagues have characterized their departure as establishing centers of resistance in places of relative safety while warning of a democratic emergency in the United States. So this is the question. Are these scholars correct? Is the United States headed toward a civil war? And if it is,

What is our moral obligation in the current moment? Linda, you just got back from Washington, DC. You've been studying some US history. Does it feel like we're in a civil war moment?

Linda Stahr (04:05.799)
Yeah. You know, I don't know. I think that there can be sometimes, but I was there last Saturday and I was able to see some pretty amazing first amendment rights expressed and I didn't feel like there was any violence or never once felt unsafe. And I think that there are a lot of opinions that people have that are based on

some information that's factual and some misinformation. And I don't know as we're necessarily headed towards a civil war, but I think that we could be if we allow our politics to get in the way of honesty. Does that make sense?

Matt (04:47.491)
Yeah. Yeah. Sean, what do you say? When people tell you like Trump is fascist, it's fascist, that makes fascism and then civil war and all that stuff at the same time.

Shawn (04:58.318)
It's the dumbest thing. It's the dumbest thing in the world. Like, okay, so I'm going to base my answer for this question on the latterly lens found in Moses six. Okay, Moses six, 27 says, and my fierce anger is kindled against them for their hearts have waxed hard. Their ears are dull of hearing and their eyes cannot see a far off. Why is it that so many people get so fixated on thinking that they're the center of the universe? Like this lady, what's her name? What's her name?

Matt (05:08.034)
Okay.

Matt (05:25.903)
Her name is Marcie Shore. She's a Yale historian. A Yale historian.

Linda Stahr (05:27.113)
huh.

Shawn (05:27.188)
Marcy Shore thinks she thinks that she lives at a time and in a place that the world is going to fall apart and hurt. is the moment in history that everything revolves around. Why? Why is today so different from the first year of the founding of our country? Really? Is it? Is it because nowadays we have two different parties that disagree with each other? that's new and unique, isn't it? That never happened. really? Well, what else is there? Who are the two sides?

Matt (05:50.447)
No, that's not that Sean. Wait, it's our country's habituation to violence, she said.

Linda Stahr (05:54.187)
Well, I think...

Shawn (05:58.477)
that didn't happen? That didn't happen in the first year of our independence? okay.

Linda Stahr (06:01.077)
no, Well, I think I think two people get fixated on the word fascism and they don't they don't understand the word in definition. I I looked it up. I just did because that's me. I like to look up words, like to know what I'm talking about. I am a dictionary. I looked at fascism because if you think about World War Two was a war that in all honesty, the Russian states fought World War Two as a war against fascism.

Shawn (06:14.765)
Your dictionary.

Linda Stahr (06:29.107)
not against communism, but against fascism. And fascism is defined as a system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, meaning someone who possesses absolute power. A capitalist economy subject to stringent, meaning constricted rights or something that is imposing rigorous standards. Governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a, I can't read my own writing.

Policy of belligerent, which would be defined as indirect or something having to do with war. Nationalism, you know, so I don't think we're quite to that point yet.

Shawn (07:03.992)
Yeah, so none of that exists. None of that exists, Matt. Objectively, none of that exists.

Matt (07:08.803)
Well, I wouldn't say none of that exists.

Linda Stahr (07:10.817)
you

Matt (07:13.764)
There are definitely people that are using violence to enforce their point of view, right? There's a person that murdered politicians.

Linda Stahr (07:14.101)
I mean, so.

Shawn (07:17.614)
In a different way, in a different way from the last five years, 10 years, 20 years, 60 years, 100 years, 200 years differently?

Linda Stahr (07:26.017)
Sure, but I didn't see any of that when I was in Washington DC. I saw people who, like I saw a man who was sitting on the street in the middle of the street, granted, surrounded by lots of different people, without a shirt on, shouting, don't touch me, don't hurt me, don't hurt me. But he was by himself. So I don't know if he's having a battle with himself or another lady with a bullhorn who's shouting things like, I don't even know, you're an idiot. I don't know.

Shawn (07:39.758)
Matt (07:44.943)
You

Linda Stahr (07:51.081)
So I didn't see the violence that can happen and I didn't see any sort of, I just saw First Amendment rights being exercised. And yes, they were exercised against government, but I didn't see that they were violent and I didn't see that it was anything that I felt unsafe dragging teenagers, 13, 14 and 15 year olds with me through. So.

Shawn (07:51.17)
some that.

Shawn (07:59.596)
Yeah, good answer Linda.

Shawn (08:12.002)
Good answer, Linda. Good answer. Matt, give me, I mean, if you're going to try and defend this lady, first of all, if you do feel truly that there's a civil war coming, really the answer is leave. Don't stay here and try and help it. But if there really is a civil war coming, answer this, Matt, between whom? Who are the two sides? Define them for me.

Matt (08:31.033)
Well, so this is the way I think about this question because I study comparative politics. You can take all the stuff that's happening in the United States right now and you can find parallels to that prior to the Russian Revolution. You can find it prior to the fall of the Soviet Union. You can do it prior to the fall of democracy in Venezuela. There are these parallels between what's happening in the United States right now and what's happening and what has happened in other countries.

Linda Stahr (08:56.609)
you

Matt (09:00.941)
before they fell. But that doesn't mean that it's like causal, right? Because you can see patterns in history and you can say these patterns preceded this event. And you could look at that and say these patterns caused that event. And in my, on my own personal view, what causes civil wars? What even triggered the revolutionary war in the United States? There's always some like little trigger, some little spark, something that just causes

suddenly people start fighting. And there has to be like this foundation laid, but then there also has to be this like spark, this thing that happens. So I don't think it's inevitable that those things lead to civil war or lead to revolution or whatever, but they can, right? And so I don't know like what it causes that spark to make it happen or make it not happen, but there does have to be, in my opinion, there does have to be this broad support.

for the overthrowing or discontent or whatever, willingness to put your life on the line to fight against something in order for all of that stuff to lead to the Civil War. And I think what you guys are saying is like, that is not in America right now. Even if people are really, really mad, there's not like.

Shawn (10:11.558)
Not even close. top of the time tested things that our government, like the balance of powers. I know that some of you are bugged by Donald Trump. I'm not a big Donald Trump fan, I don't see any evidence that the balance of powers is at risk. There's...

Linda Stahr (10:12.833)
.

Matt (10:27.983)
I mean, you can find it if you want to look for it, right? But I think what you're saying, Sean, yeah. And I think what you're saying, Sean, is it's not, yeah. And I think Sean's saying it's not worse now than it was under Biden, right? People saw Biden as a threat to democracy. And so people see Trump as a threat to democracy. you're, so.

Linda Stahr (10:32.085)
You can find anything if you want to look for it though. Like seriously, are you really looking for a Civil War or not?

Linda Stahr (10:49.333)
think people don't understand what democracy means though, because if you think about it, we're not actually, democracy means that people choose people that they elect a group of people. And I mean, if you look at it, we're not actually a democracy, we're a constitutional democratic republic. And so there's no threat to our democracy because we continue to elect people. There might be threat to the republic and there might be threat to the constitution, but there's no threat to democracy because people still have a voice in things.

Matt (11:12.527)
Yeah.

Linda Stahr (11:18.185)
And once, but if you were to take away those first amendment rights until people know you can't say anything anymore, we're done. We're not listening to you. Then we might have some civil war issues, but let's think about this, like from a latter day perspective and think about when did wars like you've seen civil war, if you will happen, Lamanites and the Nephites. Like it just goes back. And what was the cause of that misunderstanding? Lack of education, lack of desire to learn, lack of whatever.

It's a lack of something. that could be the spark, a lack of freedom, if you will.

Shawn (11:52.62)
Yeah.

Matt (11:53.443)
I think that the critical element that you need to make civil war happen is what I would call othering of people in society where you start to see your neighbors as less than human, less than equal, less than your neighbors, right? Because I might disagree with my neighbor about like where our lawn begins and ends and what he does with his yard and what I should do with my yard. But that doesn't lead to violence unless I dehumanize him in some way in my mind.

or think of them as an enemy. And I do think that there are elements of American society right now that want to demonize or dehumanize the other side to the point that they do see them as evil. And so I say to our listeners, to the extent that you're worried about fascism or civil war or anything in American society, the cure for that is to approach your enemies, political enemies, people you disagree with with love. And the more you do that, the more you ensure that you'll never have

civil war. You'll never have violence like pop-up.

Shawn (12:56.814)
You couldn't have just snuck in a little scripture there to really confirm the latter-day lens. It's a great message, man. Great message. Love your... This says love your neighbor. Is there a scripture that talks about that?

Linda Stahr (13:02.241)
Yeah, love, love one another as I have loved you.

Matt (13:04.15)
Is there a scripture that says

Matt (13:11.887)
that says love each other. But don't you guys think that...

Linda Stahr (13:12.489)
Yeah, the one that says love one another as I have loved you? Love your enemies to good to them which spitefully usually would persecute you? What?

Shawn (13:21.358)
It was a good message, Matt.

Matt (13:23.171)
Don't you really think that is the way that if you're afraid that it's all going to come to civil war and you say, what can I do? Isn't that so much better than like shouting like the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Isn't it so much better to just say, love your enemies, pray for your enemies, pray for those that hurt you.

Shawn (13:40.152)
Yeah, for sure. But I think in the absence of the gospel of Jesus Christ abundant in someone's life, there's always going to be enmity towards our neighbors, right? Like the gospel of Christ is what changes our hearts to love each other. So really in the bottom line is it's missionary work, right? It is gather Zion, the thing that's going to save us all. So I don't know if I complete, I still think mad that there are factions of people that do hate each other and they have sent the beginning and they always will.

I still don't think that's possibly gonna lead to civil war. You need something like slavery that you need to fight over. I just don't see it ever happen. No way.

Linda Stahr (14:16.209)
But even if you look at that, like if you look at things people are fighting over, they're fighting over whether or not they're right and everyone else is wrong and they're fighting. They're fighting. yeah. So if you think about it, think about what like this, this woman who is she's just left, which I think is you walk away if you're in a situation where you don't feel like you're safe, you walk away, right? Because nobody wants to end up, you know, underground and prematurely. And I think that

Shawn (14:23.724)
Yeah, petty, petty.

Linda Stahr (14:45.237)
Like if we look at whether or not we're having a democratic emergency or if we should get out while we can, if that's how you feel, get out while you can. But if you want to stick around and see the great things that are around us and see the great things that happen as a result of people working together, serving each other, because love goes hand in hand with service. And, you know, when you're in the service, here's your latter day perspective here, Sean, when you're in the service of your fellow beings, you're only in the service of your God. And so

Matt (15:09.965)
Yeah, Sean.

Shawn (15:10.126)
Thank you.

Shawn (15:13.838)
Thank you.

Linda Stahr (15:14.527)
being that we are a Christian nation founded on Christian principles and, and beliefs, whether you are, whether you're LDS or Jewish or Presbyterian or Episcopalian or Lutheran or Methodist or I don't even care, whatever your religion is, if you, if you're living a good life and doing what you believe to be the very best that you possibly can, then there's no worries about any sort of civil war threat.

But the Civil War happened because they were fighting for independence and they were fighting for that belief and that principle that all men are created equal, that they're endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights among these are life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Shawn (15:53.048)
Well, I'm going to give points to Linda for suggesting that good old Marcy Shore should get on out. Go on. Go on. Go ahead if you feel like it's so bad. And she did. And she has the right to do that.

Linda Stahr (16:03.874)
I mean she did!

Matt (16:05.855)
Listen, Yale lost a great historian and we should be mourning that.

Shawn (16:11.566)
A delusional historian? I don't know if I trust delusional historians. I don't.

Matt (16:15.407)
Sean, you hate professors so much. I'm saying...

Linda Stahr (16:16.545)
Well, great, great is speculative anyway, that's an opinion based word.

Matt (16:22.191)
All right, well, speaking of peaceful responses to political opponents. So Senator Mike Lee is in the news. He's the Republican from Utah, a Republican from Utah and a member of our church. He posted on social media with a photo of the shooting suspect who killed Minnesota State Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband writing, this is what happens when Marxists don't get their way.

Shawn (16:23.306)
Hahaha

Linda Stahr (16:27.071)
Ahem.

Matt (16:49.239)
When he was confronted by Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota, Lee refused to commit to taking down the posts or issuing an apology. The suspect allegedly had a hit list with dozens of Democratic lawmakers names and was described as a Trump supporter. Mike Lee is a member of our church and must be familiar with what President Nelson has said about promoting peace on social media. This is the question though, because I don't want to just be all mean about Senator Lee. That's the easy thing, right? The question is,

Shawn (17:10.7)
Ha ha ha.

Linda Stahr (17:12.257)
you

Shawn (17:13.602)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (17:16.387)
We all may be guilty of doing stupid things in the name of politics on social media. What should Senator Lee have done before tweeting that awful content and what should he have done afterwards?

Shawn (17:28.062)
easy. What he should have done before is checked his lens. This is what happens if your lens is, I'm a Republican, I got to tow the party line, something happened, maybe I can spin it to make the Republican Party look good. When your loyalty is to a manmade, power-driven, power-hungry political party, your perspective is wrong. That's just kind of just so disheartening that he's spouting off the stupidest things just for political gain. It was so obvious.

Matt (17:32.206)
Mmm.

Matt (17:41.785)
Yeah.

Matt (17:49.273)
Yeah.

Matt (17:55.439)
Super. Yeah.

Shawn (17:57.944)
Bring it back to the latter day lens. Someone murdered someone that is awful. Someone is suffering. Someone is sad. Like show some heart, man. Be a Christian. The latter day lens would teach that.

Matt (18:06.99)
Yeah.

Matt (18:10.285)
I think he thought he could score some political points, right?

Linda Stahr (18:10.742)
We have a

Yeah, maybe you did. have a we have a phrase at our house and it goes like this. Does it pass the say it out loud test? Like if you say it out loud, does it actually pass that test? Does if he were to have actually said that? And I thought about this all week long, actually, because I wonder like

In that particular situation, is he actually the person who's running his own social media or did somebody else put that out there for him? And I would like to maybe give him some benefit of the doubt and say, maybe somebody else was stupid when they said that. But, but it doesn't pass the, say those kinds of words don't pass the say it out loud test. It does. I don't care what you, I don't care what you say. It doesn't pass the say it out loud test. It, it's not going to ring true for anybody when you've got somebody struggling with.

Matt (18:44.942)
Yeah.

Linda Stahr (18:58.005)
the loss of a loved one because we're all children of our father in heaven. It doesn't matter what your political stance is. He should not have, he should have thought about his words before he spoke them. And what should he have done afterwards? You know, he should have said, you know, that came out wrong. I, this is what I meant to say. And there's no way to take those words back. I'm, I, I'm sorry that it came out in an, such a political manner. What I should have said was I, I'm sorry that these people have lost loved ones and I'm sorry that they're struggling with that. And.

Matt (19:08.143)
Yeah.

Shawn (19:26.958)
Clean apology he should have done. That's

Linda Stahr (19:27.635)
let's put our yeah, and let's put our political differences aside and say that something terrible happened to a politician who was likely just doing their job.

Shawn (19:37.378)
Yeah, what do you think, Matt?

Matt (19:37.711)
Don't you think that in some circles that's seen as weakness, where it's like you should always double down and never apologize because if you apologize, then you're weak and you're... I think there was maybe that motivation going on that Mike Lee wanted to seem like he doesn't back down. The say it out loud test doesn't work for me, Linda. I say out loud all kinds of awful things that my family's like, shut up, what are you doing?

Shawn (19:58.104)
Yeah.

Linda Stahr (19:58.784)
So do I.

So do I, but you know, if you say it out loud, then you think back and you're like, man, I sure sounded stupid.

Shawn (20:05.368)
More.

Matt (20:07.887)
Yeah, for me, it's not. So I agree with Sean, like you shouldn't put politics above that other stuff. I think for me, the temptation is I'm not a mother bear in any kind of way, but there are times when people get like kind of mean with people I love on social media. And then I just want to go after them. I just want to be like, I, cause I love like being like really like good with words and making it seem like like passive aggressive. think Sean says I'm passive aggressive or like.

Linda Stahr (20:11.169)
you

Shawn (20:36.417)
you

Matt (20:37.347)
Like I love like just digging into somebody and making them feel awful inside while being able to defend and say like, no, no, no, you're taking it the wrong way. And that's my temptation is like when somebody does something that hurts somebody I love on social media, I want to go after them.

Shawn (20:52.184)
So then do you appreciate when something like this happens, Matt, because that's an opportunity for others to pounce and be like, look, what an obvious example of doing the wrong thing. It's a blatant, almost like opportunity for us to be like, look, a poor way to behave. Are you saying that it's good?

Linda Stahr (21:07.733)
my gosh, have you seen like so many people have pounced on Mike Lee for saying things like that. It's been all over social media. You know, you should write letters to President Nelson. You should. He was a member of the church. You should write these is the church believe in excommunication like all of these things about just because he because he made a mistake. But if we pounce on those mistakes every single time, are we really doing what Christ would have us do? Like, is that really?

Matt (21:12.548)
Yeah.

Matt (21:21.047)
Yeah, yeah,

Matt (21:30.115)
Yeah, that's not the right. That's not the good thing either.

Shawn (21:32.056)
But, well, Matt just said how much he enjoys pouncing, Matt, and that's okay. I would defend you, because you're funny when you do it. I would defend you pouncing.

Matt (21:36.599)
I know, that's, well, so that's...

That's when I remind myself of president Nelson has been so clear about this stuff, right? He's like, that's not the way you should behave on social media. And so I really, in Trump's first term, I was pretty active on social media, attacking him and pointing things out because I felt like it was really important for people to know what was going on. And then I realized social media is not a place or a space for that sort of dialogue. Nobody's trying to have like constructive conversation about things on social media.

Shawn (21:47.799)
You

Matt (22:10.765)
And so in Trump's second term, try to, whenever I see these sorts of things on social media, I try to say to myself, who's the person that's posting that? Because I only connect with people I know and love in real life. So whenever somebody's posting that, it's usually a good friend or a family member. And I say, who's posting that? And I try to just remember how much I love that person and how much I care about that person and who cares what I'm like, if this person said that in church, how would I respond in church? And the most likely answer is,

I would just be quiet in church and be like, I can't believe you just said that at church.

Shawn (22:40.974)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Linda Stahr (22:44.211)
you're not storming the castle for that one? I mean come on really like

Matt (22:48.013)
Yeah. So that's my, that tends to be my response now is I just try to pretend like I'm in church with that person. And then I'm like, well, I definitely wouldn't say anything like this at church. So maybe it's the say out loud thing that Linda said. it's just, I wouldn't say it out loud at church. So I shouldn't say it anywhere else either.

Shawn (23:03.736)
You

Linda Stahr (23:05.152)
Does a pastor say it lot at church? Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. Sometimes.

Matt (23:08.559)
Don't you feel like a lot of churches just sitting there quiet? Like nobody's saying anything because we're all thinking, I can't believe that person just said that in church.

Linda Stahr (23:20.114)
yeah, I've been there, been there, done that, said something about it one or two times. Not going to lie.

Shawn (23:22.508)
Hahaha

Matt (23:22.639)
You

Yeah, and you're just like...

Shawn (23:27.669)
You

Linda Stahr (23:28.189)
Raise my hand. Excuse me. Let me just tell you where I think that you're wrong in that one. Pardon me. I'm sure you have a good intentions for that one, but let's take this back to what Christ did have done and what he would have said. Yeah, I don't think he would have said or done that. Let's flip some tables at the temple. Like, really?

Matt (23:38.644)
Yeah, think... Yeah.

Yeah.

It is really easy, don't you think it's really easy to get in this righteous indignation position where you're like, Jesus was angry because people were being wicked. And so I'm angry because people are being wicked. And so that justifies the behavior I'm gonna engage in while I'm being angry right now. I think it's easy to get in that space.

Shawn (24:05.454)
So Matt, your counsel to this story is your gut reaction is pounds, but you're saying, let's be Christ-like and have charity on Mike Lee. that what your message is? How interesting.

Matt (24:14.605)
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's what everyone should do. What you should do when Mike Lee tweets something like that is pretend like he said that at church. And if he said that at church, would you be like, everybody who heard this, let's write letters to President Nelson and tell him what Mike Lee said in church today.

Shawn (24:26.382)
Okay, let's test this and make sure there's no bias here. Let's say Marjorie Taylor Greene does something even worse. Do you have the same response?

Linda Stahr (24:27.297)
you

Matt (24:33.058)
Okay.

Matt (24:37.048)
huh. It's so easy to ignore Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Shawn (24:41.312)
Your message wasn't ignore them. Your message, is your message ignore them? I thought it was like have charity and be kind.

Matt (24:45.933)
My message is to say, just say, can't believe she said that in church. The charitable thing is to just stay quiet and be like, she's digging her own grave. Like if she wants to talk about space lasers at church, whatever, talk about your space lasers, right? Or the Boebert girl from Colorado with all the stuff that she's, there's a lot of people in Congress that say crazy things, right? Or the Palestinian woman or the squad or whatever, right? They said that stuff in church. I'll just be like, whatever.

Shawn (24:52.258)
Okay, gotcha. Okay, yeah. Okay. All right.

Shawn (24:58.473)
Okay, okay

Linda Stahr (25:02.945)
Okay.

Shawn (25:09.966)
Okay, all right, interesting take. That's interesting, all right.

Matt (25:13.133)
You don't do that, Sean. You just ignore them.

Shawn (25:16.398)
You talk we've moved this to church people saying crazy things in church

Matt (25:20.983)
No, no, no, well, like if there's some, cause you don't care about politics.

Linda Stahr (25:23.617)
I don't ignore them. I'll be real. I don't ignore people who say stupid things at church. I go home and I mock them relentlessly. No, I'm just kidding. we go home and we think about like, did they really just, did they, do you think they intended to say that? Do you think they really thought through that? I don't, I mean, like, I don't say it to their face because that's not the Christ-like thing.

Shawn (25:27.214)
All wind down!

Matt (25:27.981)
Hahaha

No, I do too. No, no, I do that. I think that that's fine.

Shawn (25:34.912)
Linda, that is not the Latter-day Lens.

Matt (25:44.087)
Right!

Shawn (25:45.364)
Okay, now we're off the rails you guys.

Matt (25:48.911)
Sean, you don't do that with sacrament meeting talks. Right, you don't do it with like, can you believe what they said in sacrament today and then evaluate like, is that true or is that not true? You don't do that, Sean.

Shawn (25:58.198)
Our stake president has done a great job in the past nine years. He basically says, look, we are here to worship Jesus Christ. We're here to talk about Jesus Christ. Please, everyone, just talk about Jesus Christ. In fact, keep your testimonies, for example, to three minutes. Or when you give a 10-minute talk, focus on Jesus Christ. And that guidance has kind of made for a really cool experience. I don't mind. Yeah, we all go off on the wrong way and say dumb things. I think it's easy to just go, hey, how does this relate to Jesus Christ? And let's just pull it back to that.

Linda Stahr (26:20.065)
you

Shawn (26:26.754)
We don't have to go home and judge people. Come on.

Matt (26:28.279)
Listen, there was a kid in my, in my church, I'll never forget about that. He was like the Deacons Quorum president. So they were for a time we're having Deacons choose the youth speakers. So he chooses himself to speak in church and he stands up and he's like, in the 19, in the 1976 Republican national convention, Ronald Reagan said, and then he had memorized the Ronald Reagan, like national convention speech. And then he just said from, from his memory, it's okay after church to be like,

Shawn (26:39.522)
Okay.

Shawn (26:44.91)
Hahaha

Shawn (26:48.8)
What?

Linda Stahr (26:51.521)
Uh-huh.

Matt (26:55.403)
Not sure that was doctrinally accurate, but it was super fun. Like proud of him for memorizing Ronald Reagan, proud of him for loving Ronald Reagan. There's nothing wrong with that, Sean, to just, I didn't say it at church, but at home it's like, let's not follow that example when it's our turn to talk.

Shawn (26:59.958)
Okay.

Shawn (27:08.342)
Okay. All right. Set in those in that way. I'm agreeing with you. All right. Points to Matt. Okay.

Linda Stahr (27:12.339)
Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say things to somebody's face like that either. Cause that's, you know, that doesn't pass my say it out loud test either, but I might, I might think about things afterwards and go, you know, that's probably not how I would have responded. Maybe he should have really looked through that a second time before hitting that pushing the send button.

Shawn (27:15.758)
Hahaha

Matt (27:16.482)
You

Matt (27:25.347)
You

Shawn (27:28.618)
Okay, you've softened it now and that's okay. That's a softened response. That's lovely. Okay. Okay.

Matt (27:33.195)
It's just because Sean knows me personally and he knows that there's no way that I'm actually that soft at my home. But I aspire to be that way. Okay, this story is right up. So listeners, you don't know this, but I know this. Linda, do you homeschool your kids or are you a part of a homeschooling collective?

Shawn (27:37.998)
you

Linda Stahr (27:38.029)
you

Linda Stahr (27:43.145)
Yeah, welcome to the club.

Linda Stahr (27:53.717)
So I am the chairman for homeschool commonwealth. and I've homeschooled my own children for the past 15 years. my oldest has graduated, graduated a year early as goes to school BYU, Idaho. My second graduated year early. My third is on track to graduate a year early. My fourth and fifth are working, you know,

Shawn (27:59.534)
Wow.

Matt (28:00.996)
Yeah.

Matt (28:07.373)
Nuts.

Shawn (28:11.63)
Cool, Linda, that's awesome. Matt, I'm glad you're prefacing this question with focusing on Linda because you're gonna hate my answer.

Matt (28:12.384)
Yeah. So I.

Matt (28:21.273)
Well, no, that's why I've been saving this question, because I know that Linda is a homeschooler. And so I'm like, okay, this is the perfect time to talk about this story. Because it turns out that this program we're gonna talk about is very popular in the state of Utah. It's two thirds of Utahns support this bill. okay, so they passed a bill last year. It's an $80 million school voucher program that gave 10,000 students $8,000 scholarships with broad spending flexibility.

Linda Stahr (28:21.951)
You might hate mine too, so.

Shawn (28:30.478)
Perfect.

Shawn (28:37.678)
Wow.

Matt (28:50.955)
and minimal oversight. Uniquely, 80 % of the recipients were homeschoolers. Unlike other states where most of the funds end up going to some kind of private school tuition in the Utah, most of it went to homeschool students. So the Salt Lake Tribune did an analysis of the money because they have to keep records and stuff. And they found that families used taxpayer money for Seattle boat tours, England castle visits, Hawaii surf lessons,

Shawn (29:05.518)
Interesting.

Matt (29:20.525)
San Diego Zoo panda encounters, trampolines, they spent over $100,000 on trampolines, kayaks, and somebody spent $470 on a Harry Potter Lego castle. So Sean does not like it when government waste taxpayer money. But he does like giving parents choice in how to educate their children. So the question is, despite these examples of waste,

Linda Stahr (29:23.393)
you

Shawn (29:34.06)
Yeah

Linda Stahr (29:36.757)
Ahem.

Shawn (29:44.142)
You

Matt (29:47.755)
Is the Utah Voucher Program the right approach to public funding for education? And I'll let you guys duke this out.

Shawn (29:52.758)
All right. Yeah, do you want to go first, Linda? Do you want me to go first?

Linda Stahr (29:57.577)
Well, I'm always interested in hearing what you have to say. But first off, I want to say, is it really a waste of education? mean, my taxpayer money, I'll be straight up honest. I have homeschooled for 15 to 17 years. And in that time, I pay school taxes. I pay for public school buildings. I pay for public education. Not one penny of that comes back to me in the state of Oregon to educate my own children. So I have.

Not in addition to spending all that money on my taxes, I have spent tens of thousands of dollars just to educate my own kids. I mean, if you could see, if, if the listeners could see what I have in my office here, I've got books and books and books and books and books. And you guys can see just one very small bookshelf, but I have 12 other bookshelves in front of me. So, and so I have spent, and I can see looking at these things that they spent on, and I had to pull up a different article that was a little bit, had a little bit more things that they spent on.

Matt (30:53.654)
you don't like the bias, Linda? You don't like the bias?

Linda Stahr (30:55.317)
But I couldn't, I couldn't access it. I couldn't access it, but that's okay. But, but what I'm wondering is does that, that, San Diego zoo encounter, was that something that the kids had studied beforehand? Had they studied in their science class about pandas? And so this is just adding to that. Is this is a trip to England, a castle visit? Is that something that's adding to their education? The trampoline is that their PE class is the kayaking their PE stuff.

Matt (30:59.092)
I'm sorry. Yeah.

Linda Stahr (31:24.041)
Are they using that for this? Because charter schools here in Oregon, if you, and I just recently discovered the joy of allowing my taxpayer money to fund my kids' education in a homeschool way. I don't get money for schooling my kids. What I get with the charter school that I use is my kids get a computer to use and my school books are paid for. So that's it. Everything else is out of my pocket. so are these things, I mean, I can't justify for myself.

a Harry Potter Lego castle, but is that someone who struggles with like, do they have a kid who needs that kind of spatial or that, kind of engineering to put their brain together to build things with? that like, how are they like, really, what are they using these things for? So, I mean, there's a negative too, but like, I can, I can see the negative also. I can see that that's something that, you know, but eight, like what would I have done with an extra $8,000 per year with no strings attached? Like I just took.

Shawn (32:04.494)
Look at all these look at all these positive spins now. This is great

Matt (32:09.263)
Sean's not gonna stand for this, Linda.

Shawn (32:11.555)
Yeah

Shawn (32:22.395)
So you're for this, Linda. You like this idea of a voucher. Is that true or no?

Linda Stahr (32:24.531)
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that because, because, know, yeah, I really don't, because I have seen voucher because I not in addition to homeschooling my kids, I also teach piano and violin lessons and I have been paid from school funds as a teacher. have received some income from that. So, I mean, I'm that kind of stuff, but I don't know if there should be more oversight or

Matt (32:26.191)
She likes...

Shawn (32:29.495)
Really?

Why?

Linda Stahr (32:52.501)
homeschoolers kind of like the less oversight. so, so, I mean, I don't, I don't know.

Matt (32:55.203)
they sure do.

Shawn (32:56.568)
But that's that's that that's been nice with this, right? There's been very little oversight and just money.

Linda Stahr (33:02.753)
Yeah, but on the other hand, like I pulled up another article that said that some of these like 12.32 % was used for enrichment, 74.72 for academics using tuition and fees, tutoring, school supplies, educational, 12.96 % for classroom environment.

Shawn (33:18.84)
Yeah, what's interesting, Linda, and what's fun about Matt usually taking a stance and then providing an article is he usually doesn't read the whole article and he doesn't count on me reading the whole article. So let's give you some stats, Matt, from the article you provided but didn't read. And here's what I like. I'm for the voucher system. I like giving the power back to the parents to be able to teach. Okay, now let's... Okay, I can defend it. Here, watch.

Matt (33:28.335)
You

Matt (33:34.435)
Mm-hmm.

Linda Stahr (33:35.83)
But.

Matt (33:40.49)
my goodness, my goodness, Sean. This is so logically inconsistent for you. Go ahead, go ahead.

Shawn (33:48.49)
So 60%, based on the article you sent, 60 % of the money was spent on academics and learning. Another 20 % was spent on things like music, voice lessons, different kind of instrument lessons, which absolutely I consider education. So 80 % was tracked and pretty much focused on education. And then you take that additional 15 to 20 % that you're complaining about with the Panda excursion, all that kind of stuff.

Linda Stahr (34:03.083)
Mm-hmm

Matt (34:15.791)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shawn (34:18.222)
Have you ever heard me? I'm going to say it in an arrogant way. Teach you, Matt, about a certain principle. It's called the P principle, the parois principle, the Pareto, the Pareto principle, the 80-20 rule.

Matt (34:27.769)
I thought we were doing the Milton Friedman how people waste other people's money one. Okay. The Pareto principle. Tell me about the Pareto principles.

Shawn (34:37.737)
So in any situation you're going to have the 80-20 or the 90-10 apply. Clearly in any situation you're going to have, if you give that much money to people, 10 % to 20 % of the people are going to do wasteful things. There's no avoiding it. There's absolutely no avoiding it. So I consider it an absolute success if 80 % of the funds are going towards education.

Matt (34:57.999)
Well then Sean, why are you supportive of Doge and all the stuff they were doing in the federal government? Do you know where 80 % of the federal government budget goes? 80 % of it goes to national defense, social security, Medicare, Medicaid, and paying interest on the debt. And the stuff that Doge was cutting was the 10 % of the budget. So suddenly, suddenly like 10 % waste that Doge has got to cut. We got to cut all that stuff. But if it comes to-

Shawn (35:15.566)
Okay, hang on, on. Hang on, you're sick. Hang on. Let me make sure I understand. Let me make sure I understand what saying. You're saying that if I believe in the Pareto principle, then the Pareto principle would apply to government as well. That only 10 to 20... But to be consistent over the last two years, no, my opinion is that a large centralized government goes way outside of every standard and principle.

Matt (35:29.813)
Should? I would think so. I would think that...

Shawn (35:44.472)
that they are way more wasteful. Have I not been consistent in preaching this?

Matt (35:47.879)
I know that you're saying that, it's just so weird that suddenly if it's like education spending, that's fine. 20 % waste. That's great. Because it's state of Utah.

Linda Stahr (35:56.929)
But really, but are they really like wasting that? Is that really a waste if you've got a kid who and this art, I pulled up a different article from, I don't know, KU TV, I guess. And it talks about the eight thousand dollars per student public funds. Sixty one million dollars is to distributed. know, they say it's taxpayer money, but did those parents also pay their taxes? I'm assuming so. Like and so if you think about it here, the

Shawn (35:58.671)
Okay, good point.

Matt (36:07.854)
Yeah.

Shawn (36:21.752)
Yeah, I'm sure they did.

Linda Stahr (36:25.569)
They've got four or five things listed. $3,358 for a basketball hoop. Okay. So that can be justified with your kid getting outside and playing. Would you much rather have a kid who's going outside and playing than sitting in front of a computer? $2,339 at Costco. Okay. Costco. I spend my fair share at Costco, but think about your school lunches are not provided by the school system because you've got to pay like as a homeschool educator, literally everything that I do.

Matt (36:39.182)
Yeah.

Shawn (36:54.146)
So Linda, you're questioning whether or not that 20 % is actually wasteful. You're suggesting maybe that is actually useful spending money for those people.

Linda Stahr (36:55.829)
Ahem.

Matt (37:02.169)
Well, I'll share, I'll My perspective on public education though, Linda, is different, right? Because I feel like the purpose of public education is to make sure that everybody in society is educated. And I think that parents have the right to opt out of that system because we did for a time with some of our kids, we homeschooled them and we thought the public schools aren't doing for us what we need them to do for us. But what happens when you take public school money,

Linda Stahr (37:03.071)
Perhaps. mean, some I can.

Matt (37:29.037)
and you give it to homeschoolers or you give it to private schools, you are by definition taking it away from the public system that's there to educate everybody, right? So parents that have to work two jobs or single mothers that don't have the resources that they need to educate their children at home, they rely on a public school system to make sure that their kids are getting the basic level of education. And so my perspective on public education is we have,

Linda Stahr (37:55.499)
So we're.

Matt (37:58.893)
We pay our taxes to make sure that everybody gets a basic level of education. And if you want something more than that, you're welcome to do that either through your own effort or through paying a private tuition. But the public education is not for that stuff. That's for the extra stuff. So in my opinion, anything that from public education that goes to homeschooling is, I would call it waste because it's not going to the intended purpose of public education.

Linda Stahr (38:24.907)
So then would you say that those people who homeschool their children and who pay taxes into that public school education, that they're not entitled to any sort of funding? Because to be honest with you, I have, I have paid my fair share of taxes for that. And my kids, my oldest did go to public school. And here's the thing that you probably don't know. I am also a public school educator because I substitute. So I see the whole gamut and I see them. I see the monies that are spent. I see.

Matt (38:35.673)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Linda Stahr (38:54.721)
I see the monies that are not spent. see the paycheck that I get as a public school teacher. And I see that, I see that in all honesty, we choose to homeschool our kids because of the things that can be provided for them. Additionally, now the school that I teach at the public school that I teach at did provide through public funding. And here, this article that I read said a $1,300 bicycle is not something you'd ever have access to in a classroom or in a school, but.

school that I teach at has those kinds of bicycles for kids. So I don't see it as taking away from a public school system because in all honesty, the kids in the public school system, at least here in Oregon, are not getting the same level because they're having to teach down to the kids who are throwing desks because they can't control themselves in a classroom. They're getting all these other things. And the charter school that my children function through and get their education through has

has field trips to the zoo. They don't have Panda experiences, but they do have field trips to the zoo and they have field trips to, like to OMSI, which is the Oregon museum of science and industry where they can see all these other things. Public schools have those same things also. And so I think that, that using this funding and, and I, I believe that if I'm having to pay my taxes that I want to know where some of my tax money is going. But I also think that

I should have the ability to, and this is probably we're going to be real controversial also. I think that I would probably buy into that voucher program. I sure would love to have 8,000 extra dollars with no oversight on what I use that for, to be able to buy my kids a computer or to buy my kids something that they can use to further their education. The same thing that public school kids have access to computers. Why can't my kid have that same kind of access without me having to pay for it?

Shawn (40:43.832)
Yeah, man, how do you respond to that? Why?

Matt (40:46.253)
I would say that Linda's kids can have access to computers if they go to public schools. And just like there are retirees or people who move to a state or people who choose to never have kids, they pay the same taxes into the system, even though they're not getting any of that money back for themselves. It's the same thing. We all invest in public education and you're welcome to take part in public education and get all of those resources, but you're not welcome to take public education and use it for your own private purposes.

Linda Stahr (41:13.363)
Why not?

Matt (41:14.701)
Because retirees don't get to take that money back. People who don't have children don't get to take that money back.

Linda Stahr (41:16.033)
Thank

Shawn (41:20.46)
You're saying it's an obligation to pay into society as a whole and

Matt (41:24.015)
And if you want to supplement that, you can supplement that. Same as like Medicare, right? I can have Medicare that's the government provided insurance for elderly people. But if I want something more than that, I have to pay for something more for that out of pocket, not provided by the government.

Linda Stahr (41:40.769)
But if you believe that education is a right that all people should experience and that it should be funded by taxpayers, then if my kids are not publicly schooled, but yet public school kids get a computer if they go to public school, but I choose to educate my children differently, why should I then not have access to a computer for my kids without me having to pay extra money for it? Because that's really what's happening. Like if you think about it, if you think...

Shawn (42:05.036)
Yeah, Matt.

Matt (42:06.159)
because you're opting out of the public school system, right? Your kids get that if they choose public schools.

Linda Stahr (42:09.441)
So what you're saying then is that my children are not entitled to the same type of education that a public school kid is.

Shawn (42:18.183)
yeah, that's exactly what I said.

Matt (42:19.031)
No, no, I'm saying they're entitled to exactly the same education. Put them in the public schools. But if you want them to have something different, right, if you want some...

Linda Stahr (42:26.091)
But if I don't agree, but if I don't agree with what they're being taught, what's being taught in the public schools, because I don't want my kids to have that same kind of education that is being taught. I don't want my kids to have a sex education as a kindergartener. So I keep them away from those kinds of things because as a member of the church and recognizing that education is something that I should aspire to, and we should read out of the best books.

and be taught out of the best books, but the best books aren't always being taught in the public school system. So if I'm opting to follow to follow the best books as has been directed through generations of LDS topics, prophets, you know, whatever in the scriptures, teaching out of the best books, words of wisdom, it's in the doctrine of covenants, but that's not what's being taught in the public schools. So

Shawn (43:15.534)
What do you say? What do you say Matt Matt? What do you say that just no settle for the worst education because government is king

Matt (43:16.793)
I was

Linda Stahr (43:20.693)
Good.

Matt (43:21.163)
No, I say get on the school board, get on the school board, get on the curriculum board, make those changes, organize, change the school board. But if you opt out of that system, then you don't get to have the money that funds that system.

Shawn (43:25.134)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Linda Stahr (43:27.265)
Thank

Shawn (43:34.092)
Matt, I think you're wrong. Linda gets the points 100%. Linda, I'm with you. I think you deserve that money. And I think you would put it to better use than a bloated government system. So Linda, I'm with you.

Linda Stahr (43:34.689)
Good night.

Matt (43:41.199)
Sean.

Matt (43:45.732)
and two-thirds of people in Utah happen to agree with you, Linda.

Shawn (43:50.441)
hahahaha

Linda Stahr (43:50.665)
Well, also actually, I teach with an online school that is actually based out of Utah. So I'm probably being paid by some of that money too. Like, I don't know, let's be real here. It's, it's an opportunity. I personally believe, I personally believe that, you know, whatever. I believe that, that there is an education that can be provided through a public school system for those parents who are unable to provide it on their own.

Shawn (43:58.69)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (44:00.335)
Ahem.

Linda Stahr (44:18.741)
But I also believe that there that if you choose to educate your children in a different manner that you choose to homeschool your kids, that there should be some opportunities whether you choose. But here's the other thing, too. If you are taking money from the government to educate your kids, then the government has a say in the way you educate your kids. And no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Listen.

Shawn (44:31.277)
Amen.

Shawn (44:39.204)
you just flip-flopped, Linda! Linda, you just flip-flopped! No, you were on the right track!

Matt (44:39.823)
ooh, I don't know.

Linda Stahr (44:45.277)
Listen, I don't believe that that should happen. I, but I do believe that there are, cause like my, grew up in Alaska, right. And, and I have a sister who wanted to homeschool her kids in Alaska for a very, very, very short period of time. And by very short, mean like a semester and she, in order to educate her kids, she had to choose a public school program. And I don't believe that that's

Matt (44:45.441)
You

Matt (45:11.545)
Yeah.

Linda Stahr (45:13.397)
because she was choosing a different, like if she was choosing something that is government funded. But that's part of the reason that I have educated my kids because I didn't want that government oversight. I didn't want somebody else to say that this is what you can and cannot teach your children. If I want to teach my children out of the Book of Mormon, I want to teach my kids out of the Book of Mormon. If I want to teach them the constitution and government principles,

Matt (45:24.665)
Mm-hmm.

Linda Stahr (45:38.529)
as are directed through the scriptures. I want to be able to do that without having government oversight. That being said, I also believe that if I allow that kind of thing to come into my home because I'm accepting that money, then that's a choice that I'm making and I should really think twice about it.

Shawn (45:56.002)
Yeah, Matt, I know, I know I've heard this stance from you before, and maybe at a later time we could get back into this because I'd love to hear what your principled defenses of your stance. I get that you like that from a perspective of I'm a political scientist. I know how government works, but I'd love to hear the principles that govern your stance. That'd be interesting.

Matt (46:10.701)
No, no, no.

Matt (46:15.439)
President Nelson said education is a religious obligation. So I believe, of course she's doing that.

Shawn (46:19.63)
Yeah, but that's but Linda's doing that Linda is absolutely doing it and doing it better than the government provides. So

Matt (46:26.159)
So then, so then she doesn't need the government money to do that. But some people need government funding to do that. They don't have access. What I'm saying, like they're, yeah, there's a lot of

Shawn (46:29.91)
It's... but it's not government money like like shi-

Linda Stahr (46:32.203)
But it sure would be nice. Like, I mean, really.

Shawn (46:38.402)
Well, it's true, she's done it for 15 years without it, so it's true. She doesn't need government money to do that. But out of fairness, she should, right?

Matt (46:46.169)
Sean, we believe in the separation of church and state, right? So that means that taxpayer dollars should not be used to fund religions, right?

Shawn (46:54.754)
But she's not, she's not, no, she's not funding a religion.

Linda Stahr (46:55.327)
Nah, I don't think so. don't think so. doesn't, no, no. Separation of church and state just means that there's not going to be a governmental established religion that I can choose what religion I educate my kids in.

Matt (46:58.319)
If

Matt (47:01.767)
established religion. So, but not with government money. Well, not with taxpayer dollars. Taxpayer dollars should not be used to fund religious education.

Shawn (47:04.653)
Yeah, she can-

Yeah!

Linda Stahr (47:12.007)
But he

But who's to say that I'm religiously educating my kids with those taxpayer dollars? Maybe I'm using those taxpayer dollars. No, maybe I'm maybe I'm using those. Maybe I'm using those taxpayer dollars. No, that's from seminary and Institute. Yeah, my kids get that otherwise. Maybe maybe those taxpayer dollars are being used to to teach my kids to get outside and play more often and and, know, and maybe learning about, I don't know, the history of England through those castle visits.

Shawn (47:18.646)
Yeah, that's ridiculous. Go prove that.

Matt (47:19.757)
You just told us that you're using the Book of Mormon.

Matt (47:29.418)
I see. Yeah.

Linda Stahr (47:45.277)
Hawaii surf lessons. There's some hard lessons to be learned when you pound yourself up against the surf there. Let me tell you.

Matt (47:49.913)
But I know that Sean's kids aren't gonna do those kinds of cultural experiences. They're gonna go see the first place that Fugazi ever went in a live concert. When they go to Washington, D.C., they're not going to the Supreme Court. They're going to the first place that Fugazi had a concert. And I don't think my taxpayer dollars should finance Sean's trips.

Linda Stahr (48:04.449)
Well, so, okay, so I just took, you guys know, just took, I just took three kids to Washington DC on a school field trip and, and three of those, two of those kids are my own kids. And it cost each of my kids $1,200 to go to Washington DC. That included airfare, food, hotels, everything that we said and did. Okay. Not one penny of that came from taxpayer money.

Matt (48:15.447)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (48:24.111)
Wow.

Shawn (48:31.404)
Yeah, cold-hearted Matt.

Linda Stahr (48:33.853)
So, so that involved my kids raising their money and parents, not me, but other parent, other parent, not any, my kids did not have parental funding on this. Let's just put it that way. Not from any aspect, but it came from sponsorships that we requested because as a chairman of a 501 C three homeschool Commonwealth, we reached out to the community because also I think some in the community have that opportunity to educate others as well and participate.

in educating. So you can do it.

Shawn (49:03.852)
Well, and Linda, Linda, I hope that that experience will benefit your kids in the long run, right? That makes them more interesting, more independent people, right? As opposed to Matt's type of people. No, I'm just kidding that. Who rely on everything to be handed to them by the government. I'm just kidding that. I'm just kidding that.

Linda Stahr (49:20.693)
But, but who's to say that, but who's to say that those kids who, who's to say those kids who take their eighth grade field trip to Washington DC aren't also having that same.

Matt (49:24.171)
my goodness. Sean.

Shawn (49:32.91)
because they didn't earn it.

Matt (49:34.635)
I know, but Sean, there are people in different life situations, right? There are people that don't have two parents at home. There are people that that their parents just don't have the discretionary time to help them learn how to raise money.

Linda Stahr (49:35.157)
But they're taking those trips.

Shawn (49:39.168)
Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true.

But that's, but Matt, but Matt, but Matt, that's why the voucher system is perfect, right? Because it gives more, hang on, because it gives more flexibility to parents who want to do it the way they want to do it. There shouldn't just be one choice. It should be multiple.

Matt (49:48.547)
No, it's not!

Matt (49:54.903)
I know, it, takes money from the other kids. It always takes money because this $80 million that went to the voucher system, they cut funding for public schools. They cut funding for higher education in the state of Utah.

Linda Stahr (49:59.883)
How?

Shawn (50:01.022)
It doesn't though, because...

Shawn (50:06.9)
but didn't they cut it based on like, know for a fact that my kid, boy, he's 10 minutes late to a class. They are calling us because in California, at least the funding only happens when a kid shows up. so well, no, but they're not losing any funding if a kid's not going to, know, a homeschool kids not going to show up anyway.

Matt (50:20.555)
Right, well so that's a good thing, right?

Matt (50:26.199)
All for sure. No, no, they changed.

Linda Stahr (50:27.873)
No, like here in Oregon, the kids, I want to say it's $5,000 per kid for the public school system. And like, if I had $5,000 per kid, I have five kids. If I had $5,000 per year per kid, that's $15,000 for the kids who are still in school. What would I do with an extra $15,000 to educate my kids? What like...

Matt (50:33.314)
Yeah, right.

Shawn (50:47.392)
Matt, why are you, yeah, don't take that money away from Linda. She deserves it.

Matt (50:48.015)
But that money is taken away from the public schools. So if you're saying $5,000, it is.

Linda Stahr (50:53.493)
But it's not.

Shawn (50:54.168)
But it's not mad. It's not no because the children who would have taken those resources are now being taken care of by Linda.

Linda Stahr (50:56.81)
It's not

Matt (50:59.331)
Mm-hmm. What happens when you create a voucher system is instead of saying you get this much per kid, the state says this is how much you get as a school, regardless of how many kids are in your school. Right? So when you start what they've created this other system because they want to do charter schools and voucher schools. But the way it used to be was this school has this much money and it doesn't matter if the kids come to your school or go to a charter school or go to a private school. They're still going to, you're still going to get your same funding.

Linda Stahr (51:02.163)
Yeah, exactly.

Shawn (51:12.494)
I don't think that's right.

Matt (51:28.601)
but now they've attached the funding to the kids so that schools then, they have to try to recruit kids to go to public schools and the best and brightest kids are the kids with resources to go someplace else. They go someplace else and now the public schools are failing and they don't have the resources. No, it's not wonderful, because who's gonna serve those kids?

Shawn (51:40.718)
Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful.

Linda Stahr (51:45.437)
Are they failing because they're not getting the money? Are they failing because kids just aren't going to school because like really let's maybe but but taking that money if the let's say the budget is, you know, $150 million for all the schools and that's really not even realistic. But let's say just for giggles that that's kind of the and they divide it equally and they say, okay, we're going to say this much amount of money goes regardless to whatever school.

Matt (51:48.493)
Yeah, it's probably a little bit of both.

Linda Stahr (52:14.433)
How is that school losing money if they say, set aside a certain amount for charters and whatnot? They're still getting, it's an $80 million school voucher program, gives 10,000 students. Those 10,000 students are not going to any public school.

Matt (52:29.561)
So Linda.

As a public school teacher, will I make more money at a charter school or a public school as a salary?

Yeah. Okay. So how's the charter school making a profit and paying teachers more money if they're in the same financing situation as the public schools?

Shawn (52:49.838)
Well, they fundraised. Most of them are 401 C3s, right? So they get funding, they get donations. I'm assuming that that's mostly what it's paid for. And then obviously, yeah, the parents are paying out of their pocket to pay for those schools.

Matt (53:01.227)
No, these charter schools, you're not paying private tuition. That money's just coming from public schools. Yeah, charter schools. Yeah, charter schools. Well, anyhow, we can talk about it more some other time, because we have to move on to the big topic. Yeah, okay. Yeah, good job, Linda. Okay, here's the big question. In the April, 2025 general conference, Elder Anderson spoke about abortion. He specifically said that he specifically said that what he was saying was not a political position.

Shawn (53:03.97)
Yes, you are. charter schools. thought, sorry. Yeah, charter schools.

Yeah, that was a long one. Well, points to Linda.

Linda Stahr (53:15.702)
Hey, thanks.

Matt (53:29.465)
but a moral law confirmed by the Lord through his prophets. Despite this, this talk is gonna influence people's political positions. So the big question is this, how should we approach general conference talks? So if a person reads a talk and thinks about politics, are they missing out on something of greater importance than the political issue of in this case, say abortion, right?

Shawn (53:50.614)
So your question is based in, we cognitively separate things that we're learning from prophets through scriptures, through general conferences, and just treat them as moral or spiritual matters and not try to conflate them with political or current events? that what the question is?

Matt (54:09.709)
Yeah, so like as an example, when I was listening to this talk with my family, there were certain members of my family that have positions on abortion where they feel like there should be greater access. They don't like some of the Republican legislatures that are restricting access to abortion, right? And so as Elder Anderson is talking about how abortion is morally wrong, they're seeing that through like a lens of politics of like, Elder Anderson is supporting these.

position these political laws or these these things that are happening in politics and they have a really hard time of listening to a talk about abortion and not thinking about abortion in anything other than the current political climate that we're in and he's telling he's telling them don't do that, but people are doing that anyways.

Shawn (54:49.048)
Yeah, I'm, I'm super.

Shawn (54:55.404)
I'm super interested in your take on this, Matt, but I think you pose the question that makes me really think deeply. And I think I have to conclude. I think it is the best strategy to absolutely segregate our minds and just view spiritual things and moral things as a foundation. And those things should then guide how I try to make decisions politically or view current events. They should not be conflated whatsoever. I should have a solid foundation.

and that should inform my politics. Not going into it with politics first and that should inform everything else. I don't know if I said that correctly, but you made me think deeply.

Matt (55:30.895)
You're saying you're saying they're missing something, right? If you think about it in terms of politics, you're missing out on something.

Shawn (55:38.412)
Yeah, and I'm not sure, I'm really curious to see if you disagree or agree with that, but I think absolutely. Yeah, that's, think our brain, we're smart enough where we have the ability to, like even the scriptures talk about how God says, I created things spiritually first, then temporally, but everything I created was first spiritual, then temporal. And I like the idea that we should take care of our spiritual lives and get that solid foundation for things that are complicated like abortion, right? What are the moral, what is God's will, God's law, and what are the moral?

Matt (55:43.535)
Yeah.

Matt (55:56.132)
Yeah.

Shawn (56:07.598)
principles that govern the way I should think about that and leave any political doctrines, any political party preachings absolutely away from that. Get my foundation, then let myself be informed based on that. Yeah. I mean, is that kind of

Matt (56:22.831)
Do you agree with that, Linda?

Linda Stahr (56:25.025)
Well, I think anytime you allow politics to come into things, then you have skewed your view. If, especially if you're not strong in your belief system. And if you, if you truly believe that we are children of a father in heaven who loves us and that we are all sons and daughters of God, and that we are created spiritually before we created physically, if you truly believe that, if you believe in the doctrine of creation, and if you, if you think through things like that and think, okay,

We have, we are spirit bodies coming down to receive a physical body. And if our purpose to come from, for coming to earth is to receive a physical body, then, then when you look at things through that kind of a lens and then you, and you take politics out of it, it does make it a little easier to, look at some of those tricky and those hard, very, very political things.

Shawn (57:15.512)
But can I suggest kind of a little counter to that? Just interesting, Linda. So I think that I view in scripture all that doctrine you just preached about the value of a life. I view that, I see that preach just as much as another topic that is preached throughout scripture, which is agency and choice, agency and choice. So to me, this is why it is important for us to get that solid foundation of what is God's will and how I should behave in my life.

And sometimes I think Matt, where you would land is the outcome. Once I've graduated, now let me look at a current event or look at things politically. Sometimes the outcome can be a little different even to faithful members of the church, right? If my life experiences and my spiritual growth focuses on agency and agency and agency, not that that justifies maybe Linda doesn't necessarily obviously justify something like abortion, but it could inform a political stance potentially.

Matt (57:58.063)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (58:13.998)
I'm not saying it should or could, but it could.

Matt (58:16.887)
Yeah, I think there's a

Linda Stahr (58:18.081)
think that there's a lot of, and I'm a firm believer in agency. talk about agency and natural consequences all of the time with my kids. And I talk about how your agency, but are you especially, and this is a hard topic because there are so many people who.

Did I get disconnected there for a second? This is a hard topic because there are so many people who who look at abortion as simply as an agency issue. And if you look at it only as an agency issue, then you're I think you're missing the other part of it. I think that you're missing you're missing God's will part of it. And and because how do you take how do you separate the agency of that that spirit person coming to receive a body?

Matt (58:37.923)
No, no, you're there.

Linda Stahr (59:04.561)
And the agency of the woman who is carrying that spirit person, who is coming to reason, how do you separate that? Like, how do you talk about agency without, without looking at overall the overall. there are, they're definitely taking politics out of it. And I, I have had friends who have had to have abortions because of, health issues and other things like that, that they struggle with that.

Shawn (59:11.17)
Yeah, sure, sure.

Linda Stahr (59:33.121)
And so I, I'm not saying that I'm not saying that it's something that I, and this is where it's kind of confusing because I'm not a hundred percent against it, but I'm also definitely not a hundred percent for it. But I think that there are things that need to be taken into consideration, but if you take politics out of it and if you allow the government to control whether or not I choose those kinds of things, but looking at elder Anderson, he's not talking, he's trying to talk about this as a moral law and he's not.

If you look at it from a political standpoint, instead of looking at it, I do believe that you miss things. think that in anything, in any gospel topic, anything, could pull up my conference talks from 10 years ago. And if you pull those up and you say, or let's like look even at, president, yes, anything.

Matt (01:00:22.137)
Proclamation to the World on the Family. You can look at religious liberty sort of stuff. Yeah, I think that the challenge is twofold. So first, there's this one challenge that religious organizations have tremendous capacity for political power because they have people that go to church and they're already active and doing things. And so there's a lot of people that are like, you should take a political position because you have an opportunity to make a real difference. But what happens is when a church becomes too political,

the churches tend to hollow out because the value of a church is not in what it can do politically, but what it can do for a person spiritually and do for them. So a lot of religions that become too political, they end up losing people in their churches because they're not getting the religion out of the religion anymore. So there is a risk if a church decides to become too political. And so I think when church leaders are really specific in saying this is not politics, then we make a huge mistake

when we try to make it political, when they're intentionally not making it political. And I think that these things happen where the Lord is trying to tell people, kind of like what you guys have both been saying, the Lord tries to tell people, you guys are thinking about this issue from politics, and that's not the way you should be thinking about it. Let me give you something, a different perspective. Let me give you another way to think about it. Let me try to shift your thinking on this. And if we...

take it from the political perspective, we are missing out on like what Heavenly Father is really trying to change in us in these general conference talks.

Shawn (01:01:54.23)
Matt, this is why the world needs you and the latter day lens. Seriously, that is such a powerful, powerful, I'd never thought about it in those terms until you asked the question. And it just, kind of like is an epiphany establishing thought for me. Like that is such a powerful and important message that we all need to grasp. So well done, Matt.

Matt (01:01:57.443)
Ha ha.

Matt (01:02:16.249)
Thank you, thank you. I didn't win you guys over on education. Go ahead, Linda.

Linda Stahr (01:02:18.219)
think also, that's all right. I think also we need to look at it from a perspective and say, using the words church and doctrine and the church being a building and a vessel where people can gather together and they can express their ideas and their opinions and learn together to become more Christ-like. But then there's doctrine and doctrine is why we actually continue to go to church. We go to church because of the doctrine, because we believe in the Savior Jesus Christ.

And we believe that he has a plan for us. And if we allow church to become as the building and the people that are within it to become so politically minded that we forget the doctrine and we forget Christ's teachings on those different things, then we see a different perspective. And like you said, Matt, we lose people because people are so focused on the, well, he said this and she said that and why can't, instead of saying that the Lord loves us and he recognizes us,

He meets us where we are. And if you are one of those people who struggles with issues, moral issues, political issues, whatever kind of things you struggle with. mean, because we, as people, we struggle with a variety of different things and nobody is perfect. And if Elder Anderson says, if we're taking this from a church level to a doctrinal level, which is what he's trying to do here, taking it, political being the church.

and just church as a building, a people, we're a congregation, we are a church. But if you take it to a more doctrinal level, a deeper spiritual level and say, this is the moral law that's confirmed by the Lord through his prophets, morally speaking. Now, politically speaking, and if you go politically and morally, you have to look at it in a couple of different perspectives. And that's something that I think is really difficult to do. But from an LDS perspective to say,

I recognize that this is a moral principle that's being taught. And this is also a political view that is being projected. And so there's two different, do you see the two different words there? A moral principle and a political view. And if you can separate the two and say politically speaking, you have a group of individuals who are pro-life and a group of people who are pro-abortion, politically speaking, but morally speaking,

Shawn (01:04:25.196)
Yeah, separate them. Beautiful.

Linda Stahr (01:04:41.985)
You have a group of people who just want society to function as a whole in a beautiful manner. And they want agency to be a part of that. And they want people to exercise their agency in the best way possible. So doctrinally speaking, it a political issue or is it a moral issue? And Elder Anderson is saying this is a moral issue. But if you take it to a political standpoint, you might be just missing just a little bit of the point. Likewise,

Shawn (01:05:08.757)
Amen. Well said, Linda.

Linda Stahr (01:05:10.299)
Likewise, if you take it from a moral issue, you might also be missing just a little bit of the point.

Matt (01:05:16.397)
I love it, Linda. We're gonna let that be the last word. Thank you so much for joining us this week, Linda. It was great to visit with you again. Listener, thanks for being with us. We'll talk to you again next week.