Matt (00:01.317)
Hello everybody and welcome to The Latter Day Lens. It is good to have you with us this week. I'm your host, Matt, and with me as always is Sean and Melanie is joining us this week. we've got some diversity, diversity of opinion. Melanie, I was trying to like save really good topics for when you're here. We could ask like about women's issues, but I couldn't think of any, so sorry.

Shawn (00:13.922)
Legend.

Melanie Miles (00:25.142)
you

Yeah, no women's issues in the world today.

Matt (00:31.045)
You know, I was talking to somebody and they were like, they're kind of getting a little salty with me. They're like, there are big things happening in the world and you don't always bring them up on your podcast. And it's because we don't have to talk about all the big stuff that's happening in the world. We can talk about the things that we think are important to talk about and not necessarily like, people are going to be like, Matt, don't you pay attention to the news? Like barely some news. Yes. But like,

Shawn (00:32.174)
Ha

Melanie Miles (00:59.414)
you

Matt (01:00.771)
The big news, apparently there was a shooting in Minnesota recently. yeah, they were like, are you talking about that? And I'm like, I wasn't really aware of that. And breaking news, there's like missiles being shot between Iran and Israel. Also not on the list for today of things to talk about.

Shawn (01:22.126)
But you've just being the editor of this thing that you've always wanted to talk about topics that don't get mainstream news yet are like representative of I guess the ideas and the principles that are hard to solve. And so I like that you bring up the kind of obscure ones.

Matt (01:36.73)
Yeah.

Yeah, I want us to talk about hard issues, but if there's not a clear latter day lens, then I sort of steer away from those issues. Because I think it's more important to talk about things. I want our listeners to feel like they're informed of what's going on, so that's why I mentioned things that happened in the news. If this is the first you heard about it, you're welcome. You're now fully informed about big issues, but we're gonna not spend a lot of time talking about those issues.

What we're gonna talk about first is this item in the mailbag. One of our listeners wrote in, Sean, I just found the Mission Stories podcast. I love it. Does this mean that you're gonna step away from the latter day lens like Sam did? I hope not. You are great.

Shawn (02:21.934)
that's so nice! Melody, what are you laughing at?

Melanie Miles (02:26.003)
Nothing, nothing.

Matt (02:29.317)
I listened to the first two episodes of the Mission Stories podcast. Sean, I agree with the listener. I love it. I think it's great. Tell us a little bit about what it is and then tell us if you're gonna leave this podcast.

Shawn (02:35.672)
Thanks.

All right. Okay, well, I'm definitely not leaving this podcast. I'm the one that has grabbed Matt by the neck over the last two years and made you continue doing this. So I'm definitely not leaving this. And every every other day when you're like, Yeah, I don't know. I'm not I think I'm gonna move on. Nope, you're not. So I'm not leaving no way.

Melanie Miles (02:46.769)
You

Melanie Miles (02:55.766)
you

Matt (02:57.829)
So you decided to take the second question first.

Melanie Miles (02:59.36)
So listener, listener, the conclusion is you have to write it and compliment my dad or else he's going to leave us.

Shawn (03:01.804)
Yeah, I did.

Matt (03:05.221)
I need words of affirmation. yeah, mission stories. What is that Sean?

Shawn (03:06.584)
But the

So for many years, I've taught a class, a mission prep series. I put together these seven ideas, these seven concepts. I looked at Elder Matt Miles, and I looked at Elder Jacob Pack, and Elder Levi Barnes, and all these missionaries I served with. And I went, holy cow, these guys are good servants of the Lord. These guys were happy, successful missionaries. And when I got home, Matt, I just assumed.

Matt (03:36.835)
no, we have a pause. Did we lose him, Melanie?

Melanie Miles (03:38.955)
dear. I don't hear him.

Shawn (03:40.846)
Did you lose me?

Matt (03:41.741)
I think it's because when he talks about how awesome we are, the Lord's like, strike him, strike him. Those guys are just adequate missionaries. So until Sean, until Sean jumps back on, Melanie, you served your mission in Oklahoma City. And just so our listener knows about the news, you know what's going on with Oklahoma City in the news right now, Melanie.

Shawn (03:48.162)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Melanie Miles (03:50.854)
No one's allowed to think that highly of Matt Miles.

Melanie Miles (04:04.754)
I don't, you should tell me.

Shawn (04:05.806)
Hey Tyler, are you on the internet by chance? Are you on the internet by chance? No?

Matt (04:06.053)
They're like in the NBA finals right now. And yeah, and they're playing as we're recording and there's a decent shot they could win the NBA title for the first time ever in Oklahoma City.

Melanie Miles (04:10.559)
Wait, what?

Melanie Miles (04:21.374)
You're telling me I have to care about the NBA now?

Matt (04:24.279)
I mean you don't have to but it is kind of representing your mission city like if.

Melanie Miles (04:28.488)
Like the thunder are doing that well?

Matt (04:31.511)
really really well i mean it's tied two games apiece right now but yeah everyone's kind of picking them to win the nba finals and it'll be their first nba title so kind of maybe you got a melanie okay i'm gonna pause i'm gonna pause this

Melanie Miles (04:42.762)
This is crazy. Where can I watch NBA games? Yeah.

Matt (04:51.577)
Hey, and Sean is back. Welcome back, Sean. It's okay. Okay, so you were telling us that you saw these awesome missionaries.

Shawn (04:54.399)
Sorry about that.

Shawn (05:00.203)
Yeah, starting with Elder Matthew Miles. These are the words of affirmation that you look for, right? To stay on the podcast. No, but I got home, Matt, and I just assumed everyone had the same experience we did, which was amazing and spiritual and powerful. And I found out that that's not the case. Not everybody did have this amazing experience. And so I got kind of fascinated with why do some have this amazing experience and why do others didn't? And why didn't?

Melanie Miles (05:03.734)
you

Matt (05:07.877)
Thirty years ago, you were a good missionary.

Shawn (05:28.777)
And I kind of got obsessed and started studying what were the ideas or the principles or the behaviors that were common among those who had good experiences and discovered like six or seven things. And so I put these classes together and it's been six or so years and thousands and thousands of kids that I've taught. And eventually it was just like, just, just get the stories, man, get the stories and the principles taught in, in, a podcast. So we just launched it. We've got 20 episodes out. I've only launched five, but we've got 20 episodes just queued up to roll. So yeah, thanks for, thanks for.

Matt (05:57.411)
I love it. My son goes in, my son starts home MTC next week. So he's been listening, he likes it. My other son is waiting for his mission call. He was listening, he says he likes it. So I'm glad you dropped it in time, Sean, for my boys to listen to it and benefit from it.

Shawn (06:07.869)
Awesome.

Shawn (06:11.883)
I'm glad you make them listen to it

Matt (06:14.885)
No, no, I really don't. I make Melanie listen to my podcast because she doesn't listen to podcasts, but my other sons, I don't have to make them listen to stuff. They just choose to.

Melanie Miles (06:21.014)
You

Shawn (06:24.499)
Nice. Nice.

Matt (06:27.557)
All right, let's move to the thought provoker. So this is the first topic. On Saturday, there was a military parade in Washington, DC to celebrate the 250th anniversary of the Army, the US Army. In other US military news, the Trump administration deployed the National Guard and the US Marines in response to rioting in Los Angeles. Many Americans have been disturbed by this and took to the streets in protest. Here's our question.

Should we be disturbed by the more visible displays of military might in the United States?

Shawn (06:58.985)
I mean, this could have gone in many different directions, but this is the question, huh? Melanie, I'd love to know your opinion before I share mine.

Matt (07:03.653)
This is the question.

Melanie Miles (07:08.13)
I like my knee jerk reaction is yes, because I don't think violence should ever be our default. And I think anytime military might is being used to show how great a country is, it increases the likelihood of us using violence as a default.

Shawn (07:26.859)
interesting.

Matt (07:27.469)
Melanie, do you remember when we were watching Star Wars and there was like all of this, there was some order and then all of these Jedi Knights died and you could see Yoda's face like being really sad as he felt the pain throughout the galaxy of all of the murdering happening?

Melanie Miles (07:42.128)
So we didn't watch that Star Wars together, but I do know what you're talking about.

Matt (07:45.269)
well, you have a brother that's in the army right now and I felt something while you were talking bad about the US Army. I felt like all this pain from your US Army brother being like, hey.

Shawn (07:46.304)
Ha

Melanie Miles (07:56.841)
Hey, I'm not talking bad about the US Army. I'm just saying violence that would, for example, put my brother's life in danger should not be our first resort.

Matt (08:08.479)
okay. Okay.

Shawn (08:09.419)
Can we also point out that Matt compared himself to Yoda in that situation?

Matt (08:12.485)
I can't help it. I feel things the way Yoda feels things. We're the same, and I. Awesome.

Shawn (08:18.187)
So Melanie, where does precedence come in? Does it affect your opinion? Because for example, the last 70 years, the federal government has deployed the National Guard about 12 times. So if you study all of the times during the civil rights era, Detroit riots in the 60s, the Martin Luther King assassination, there were many times, Dozens of times where the federal, let alone the state governments who

way more have brought in military to really there's three categories that they it's kind of common to bring them in natural disasters big events for example the Kentucky Derby the state of Kentucky brings in the National Guard or other military to to kind of organize it.

Melanie Miles (09:00.406)
you

Matt (09:03.119)
to help keep the peace of the people gambling on horses? Okay, all right.

Shawn (09:06.283)
think so. I mean, that's, that's what my source says. So, so what would precedence, I guess, in any of those situations affect your your thoughts on that?

Matt (09:18.181)
Don't you think that the thing in Los Angeles is just show? It's just a political show. Nobody needs the National Guard in Los Angeles to protect the citizens of LA. What are they doing? Sean burning Waymo cars or something like that? Nobody need, the LAPD is up to snuff. They could take care of that.

Shawn (09:35.031)
I mean, I didn't. Yeah. So I was wondering, I was wondering if the, was wondering if your topic was going to delve into the actual cause or what's happening, or if we were just going to talk in general. I mean, if we're to talk about it, it's so tough nowadays, Matt, like if I, I just took 10 minutes and research, what pictures can I see or videos can I see from those riots? And I studied kind of the minute by minute, at least news agencies, timeline of things that have happened.

Matt (09:37.027)
You're- you live-

Shawn (10:02.287)
And it's so sad, right? Because it must be biased what I'm looking at. Because all I see is burning police cars, Mexican country flags, a few Palestinian flags for some reason. And a lot of people just standing on like burning cars. Like, to me, that's not that's rioting, right? That's violence. That's not protesting.

Matt (10:16.825)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Matt (10:22.627)
Well, of course that's not peaceful protest. 100 % that's not peaceful protest. But that's also not, I mean, again, the news sources I watch, I watch Inside Edition. So I see like there have been these gangs of people on motorcycles that just drive through the streets of Los Angeles, like assaulting people, looting stores. Like there's been like criminal behavior and violent stuff in Los Angeles since the pandemic at least. And

And this doesn't seem to me a whole lot worse than some of that other stuff I saw.

Shawn (10:55.627)
But you're not answering your question. You're saying in this instance you don't think it was a good show of military. But in general...

Matt (10:59.309)
my question.

Matt (11:05.42)
No, in this instance, think I actually don't really care about the Los Angeles. To me, that's like a non-story that got a lot of attention. What I would prefer, and again, my son's in the Army. I love that we celebrated the 250th anniversary of the US Army. But what I wish we had was a parade celebrating the 250th anniversary of the IRS or the State Department.

Shawn (11:22.826)
Yeah, I do too.

Shawn (11:31.829)
Dude? Melanie? Melanie?

Matt (11:32.213)
or all of the other federal employees that we have, the Veterans Affairs Administration.

Melanie Miles (11:36.348)
Yeah, so he's made this argument before. He's made this argument a lot of times.

Shawn (11:40.885)
Millie, I'm in a different state than him. You're closer to him. Can you please go slap him right in the face? You want a parade of the irons?

Melanie Miles (11:47.978)
But like maybe I'm a fan of the IRS too.

Matt (11:51.589)
Of course we should have a what's more p-

Melanie Miles (11:53.619)
No, no. So I feel like this ties back to my argument. Because I'm not necessarily pro a parade for the IRS. But I think the government does have a lot of other resources and agencies that could be used in these situations. And when we default to, let's call in the army, let's call in the National Guard, let's use a show of force instead of, let's use diplomacy, or, let's tax these people higher. I don't know. I think there are other solutions that could be explored.

that don't get explored when we place all of our emphasis on our military might.

Matt (12:28.513)
I think it takes a lot of patriotism to work for the IRS because there's no like person who says, know what, I want my neighbors to love me more than they do. I think I'll work for the IRS because when they find out I collect taxes for a living, they're going to be like, you love your country so much. But the reality is like, that's a job that needs to be done. And there are a lot of government jobs that like need to be done. And I can only imagine

Melanie Miles (12:40.694)
you

Matt (12:54.207)
if we were having, if we spent, I heard it cost $45 million for the parade in Washington DC. Could you imagine if we spent $45 million on a parade to celebrate the CIA, the FBI, the State Department? So that's, my only beef is like, of course I want to celebrate the Army. But if we're gonna spend that kind of money to celebrate the Army, then we should be celebrating all of the other people who work in the federal government as well.

Shawn (13:22.157)
Matt.

Matt (13:24.325)
And by the way, if you really wanna stop riots in Los Angeles, get the IRS out there, get the Social Security Administration out there saying, can I get your Social Security number? Or I need to audit your taxes, I need to see, have you been paying your taxes? Are you getting your money under the table? And those riots would end.

Melanie Miles (13:35.318)
You

Melanie Miles (13:41.726)
You're allowed to protest, but you have to be audited first.

Shawn (13:45.739)
Matt, I've never heard this position from you. I'm so glad that after all these years, there's still topics that I'm like, what did you just say?

Matt (13:46.511)
Ha

Melanie Miles (13:53.354)
you

Matt (13:56.195)
Melanie's like, my dad never stops talking about this stupid stuff.

Shawn (14:00.021)
Melanie, quick last question before we leave this topic. Is there any circumstances if a protest turns into rioting or violence, is there any circumstances where you can see the military showing up to fix things?

Melanie Miles (14:14.102)
I 100 % think they are and should be a resource that we use. I just think they're overutilized.

Matt (14:21.669)
Especially if the city of Los Angeles says we don't need your help, like if your city is saying please don't send the military here, then why would you send the military there? Who does that help if the city doesn't want your help?

Shawn (14:33.845)
So because we're the latter-day lands, can I try and bring in a scripture? It probably doesn't relate at all, but do remember, Matt, you know a lot of weird details about the Book of Mormon. Pachas, P-A-C-H-U-S? Who was Pachas? Wow.

Matt (14:37.955)
Yeah, of course.

Matt (14:44.931)
Yeah. This is in the book of Helaman, right? When they're trying to decide who should be the next king or the leader of the Nephites.

Shawn (14:52.445)
Now, I wish I could make fun of you, Matt, for only knowing ridiculous facts about the Book of Mormon, but you also know all the doctrinal facts. So he received, let's see, according to law, the king men who had been taken and cast into prison, let's see, and they were executing an order to the law. Let's see, those men of Pachas and those king men, whoever would not take up arms in the defense of their country, but would fight against it, were put to death. Now, I don't...

Melanie Miles (14:59.455)
Yeah

Shawn (15:21.375)
I couldn't tell what direction this discussion would go in, I'm not sure how that applies. obviously, but here's what I guess where it could. If one side, the federal government decides, look, the mayor of LA and the governor of California are not defending our country, they're allowing violence, they're allowing things to get destroyed. I'm going to make a judgment call to defend our country. And on the other side, you've got Newsom and Buss, is it Bass? Bass. Saying,

It's fine. We've got it. There's no, we're not, there's, we're not, there's no need to defend the country. We're, totally under control. And, but I think being in a California, Matt, there is a long history of kind of a laissez faire attitude against the law. And there's a lot of things that happen here that they don't execute the law always, right? There's lots of weird stuff that goes on.

Matt (16:05.061)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (16:12.203)
It's, but it does seem hypocritical to me for a president who's pardoning the January 6th people or a president who's pardoning all kinds of other corrupt behavior to say, this is where we're going to take a stand and enforce the law. And, the law does it's true, Sean, the law says that if there's rebellion, then the president can call in the national guard to put down a rebellion.

Shawn (16:33.333)
I mean, but based on what he got elected, why he got elected, does he he has to do this? mean, I, no, no, no, no, listen, in order for him to be true to what he ran on and believes he got elected on, he has to show that it's all about deporting, which I don't agree with. Like I'm fine securing the border, I hate this whole deportation thing, but he ran on that and he fills a mandate to do that.

Matt (16:39.127)
Of course he doesn't have to do this.

Matt (16:57.283)
Right, he said he was going to deport criminals and violent people. So that's not rounding up people at Home Depot that are looking for day work, right? That's not deporting a mother who's a stay at home mom. That's not deporting college students. That's not deporting.

Shawn (17:07.977)
Yeah, but that's it. But that's it.

But that's just a, but that is a news talking point, right? We don't know, we don't have all the data of who's getting deported. There's some stories about, you know, Ecuadorian gang members. then, and then the rioters are saying, no, they're just moms in Home Depot. You know what I mean? Like it's.

Matt (17:16.719)
That's.

Matt (17:27.781)
But we do, but the stories I mentioned, go ahead Melanie.

Melanie Miles (17:28.704)
I do wanna...

I just want to chime in as someone who isn't super well-versed in the news, but is living life as a college student. I TA for physics majors. I have one student who's from China. He's scared to go home for the summer because he doesn't think he'll be able to come back. I have another student who's here from Norway and has no fear at all. And there's something about that that feels a little inequitable to me. To me.

Matt (17:49.925)
You're right.

Shawn (17:52.533)
Yeah, that's sad.

Matt (17:53.509)
The Trump administration did withdraw refugee status for 500,000 people who were here legally as refugees because they're afraid of violence in their home country. So you can't say we're just getting rid of criminals when you're making decisions to like, when you're for whole groups of people, you're just making them leave or you're creating an illegal status out of people who were here legally, suddenly making them illegal or undocumented.

or in status where they should be deported. That's not really fulfilling what people thought he was going to do when he said control the border.

Shawn (18:29.439)
I mean, I hate a situation where we as a government, a country, just invite and let millions of people in. And then the next day, because it's a different administration, decide, nope, you're going away. Like, it's not fair, right? If we let them in, which we did, let's, you know, this is the Ronald Reagan talk, right, about what did he do in the 80s? How many people did he give pretty much citizenship to? Yeah.

Matt (18:54.133)
Amnesty. I don't remember the number, but yeah, he he granted amnesty to people that were undocumented.

Shawn (18:57.237)
I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, it's tough, tough situation.

Matt (19:03.799)
Okay, new topic. There's this new dating app. They're taking a new approach to finding love for their users. They take your 5,000 most recent internet searches to create a browse personality profile, and then AI leverages this data to suggest compatible partners. Currently, the app doesn't even support photo uploads. So I think this raises an interesting question.

Is there a better way to find love than traditional photo and bio-based dating apps? Are you more likely to be compatible with someone who shares your internet search history than someone you've selected based on their appearance and brief profile? Melanie, you're in the dating world, tell me. How much data do you get from, should you be ignoring photos and focusing more on their internet search history?

Shawn (19:30.955)
you

Melanie Miles (19:45.129)
Ha ha!

Shawn (19:45.183)
Thank

Melanie Miles (19:53.95)
my gosh. The Provo dating scene is a nightmare. Let me just put that out there.

Matt (19:57.637)
They're like, you search for porn a lot, they search for porn a lot. You're going to love each other.

Melanie Miles (20:02.153)
You

I think it entirely depends on what you're looking for, right?

Shawn (20:06.474)
No,

Shawn (20:10.251)
Matt (20:10.309)
Let's say an eternal companion.

Melanie Miles (20:13.969)
Sean, it sounds like you have things you want to say.

Shawn (20:15.819)
Well, I was going to ask you, Melanie, are you avoiding?

Matt (20:19.727)
She is. This is how Melanie dodges questions.

Shawn (20:22.591)
Well, an important kind of context question, Melanie. say the dating scene. Everyone I talk to in Provo, BOU says the same thing. The dating situation here is a nightmare. Is that just a generation thing? It's just a generation thing. You guys struggle. Yes or no?

Melanie Miles (20:36.778)
don't know.

Matt (20:39.427)
No, thought, Sean, when we were there, I thought it was a mess too. I hated dating in Provo.

Shawn (20:44.655)
Okay, let's just refute that. The first girl you decide to date, you married. What are you talking about? No way, man. It was thriving. Okay, maybe, Millie, I won't put you on the spot about that question. Matt, how much stock do you have in this new company? Are you promoting this on purpose?

Melanie Miles (20:46.068)
So the way I always hear it framed, go ahead.

Matt (20:47.781)
Matt (20:51.205)
That's how much I hated it.

Melanie Miles (20:51.22)
Hehehehe

Matt (21:02.821)
I have no stock. just thought it was fascinating. So Melanie knows this story. We were in Germany and we were talking about, what's that dating at Melanie mutual. And yeah, cause was somebody going to set you up on mutual with somebody or something like that? So I just,

Melanie Miles (21:09.59)
you

mutual.

Melanie Miles (21:19.324)
Yeah, so my sister-in-law wanted to sit me- I'm lagging.

Matt (21:22.969)
Go ahead. No, go ahead.

Melanie Miles (21:25.238)
My sister-in-law wanted to set me up with someone in her ward and he was like 10, 15 years older than me and I was like, that's kind of weird. And then she was like, well, you should just check out mutual in the area. So I hopped on mutual in Germany because why not? And then my dad was like, Ooh, I'll hop on mutual in Germany.

Matt (21:42.629)
and I didn't even know what it was. I mean, I kind of knew what it was, but I create this profile about how much I love my wife and love my kids and have a happy family. And then it starts like matching me to singles in the area, right? So it's like German women that are in their late forties and who are single. And as I browse that app for just like, I don't know, 10, 15 minutes, I was like, this is depressing. Like this is, this is sad. Like it's hard to find somebody.

Shawn (21:48.98)
You

Shawn (21:58.091)
Jeez.

Matt (22:12.429)
especially as you're our age, right? It could be even harder to find somebody. And I could see why it would be very discouraging. Like, I would see people trying to work real hard to get this great profile pic on mutual and working real hard to get this bio to generate interest. So I can see the appeal of an app that says, don't worry about that. Just give us your search history and we'll find somebody for you. That's cool, I think.

Shawn (22:37.099)
Horrible.

Melanie Miles (22:37.654)
want to chime in though, because I think one of the reasons people always say dating in Provo is a nightmare, or at least the reason I've heard from my male friends, is that everyone in Provo just tends to be proportionally more attractive. I don't know if this is true or not, but this is what everyone says. There are just too many attractive people. I think they just say that to make us feel good about ourselves. But I think there is something to be said of when you go on a date, you want to be attracted to the person you're going on a date with.

Shawn (22:51.005)
Ahahaha!

Matt (22:51.318)
Shawn (22:55.806)
What?

Matt (22:56.499)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (22:59.157)
Ha ha!

Matt (22:59.535)
Mm-hmm.

Melanie Miles (23:07.572)
Like I've been on blind dates where I'm sure the person and I would have gotten along great, but I just showed up and I was like, I don't want to be on a date with this person. And I worry like that a dating app that's based on personality in that way will cause like, I think the best relationships are based off of common interests rather than common attraction. But I think, I think going on a first date with someone you're not attracted to is going to be hard.

Matt (23:16.613)
See this.

Matt (23:29.989)
You're getting to the heart of my question, Melanie.

Matt (23:38.341)
Shouldn't you be attracted to who they are based on their search history, their physical features of the person? Shouldn't that matter way more?

Shawn (23:42.507)
What's up?

Melanie Miles (23:44.446)
I think you should be, but I think if you show up and you're like expecting to be attracted to this person because their personality is so great and then it feels like a jump scare, that's not going to go well.

Shawn (23:55.435)
Preach it, Melody.

Matt (23:58.501)
Sean, are you really shallow in that way? Like you gotta like think she's hot to like go out with her? I know the answer to this. Sean was my college roommate. I know 100 % the answer to this question. Are you that?

Shawn (24:01.355)
You

Melanie Miles (24:01.712)
Oof. Oof.

Shawn (24:05.269)
You

Shawn (24:11.775)
Yeah, that's okay. I've got Melanie to be on my side here. No, Matt, I agree with Melanie that you have to be attracted to the person that you're gonna spend eternity with. There's nothing wrong with that. Shallow. This from the guy who would go on dates with your current wife and come home and sing at the top of your lungs, Celine Dion, because you're so, so excited. Really, that's just because your wife was...

Matt (24:15.993)
Ha ha!

Matt (24:27.589)
Bye.

Matt (24:32.363)
Hahaha

Matt (24:39.275)
It was her internet search history. Somehow it matched. And I didn't know it at the time.

Shawn (24:39.721)
have the same running interest as you. Is that why? that why?

Melanie Miles (24:43.381)
You

Melanie Miles (24:48.438)
because my dad spends a lot of time googling math education tactics.

Matt (24:52.087)
Right.

Shawn (24:52.331)
Melanie, here's my opinion. You give me your opinion or tell me what you think of this. I'm a big believer in a different kind of strategy in order to land your spouse. And maybe we're ignorant Melanie, because we weren't raised in the age of dating apps. But isn't the solution of finding a spouse, an eternal spouse, strive to be the kind of person you want to be or you want to marry and then pray and put your trust in the Lord to find them? Like when I got home from my mission, I remember Matt and I were in Ogden.

before preparing to go out of UAE and one day I was in the temple and I was just in the celestial room praying and this lady comes up this old old lady starts shaking my shoulders to kind of snap me out of my prayer and I'm like whoa that's inappropriate and she says you just got back from your mission huh I was like yeah how'd you know that oh I just can tell and she pointed to this old guy down the hall and says see that guy so for 30 or I think it's 40 years I prayed to the Lord every day that I would find the perfect spouse and have heaven on earth and she says it took 40 years of me praying every day

I found him and it's been heaven on earth since. And then she looked at me in the eyes and says, you start praying for your spouse that you'll be ready and that they'll be ready. I was like, okay, okay. Don't you think the solution is become the type of person that you want to marry and then rely on the Lord to find it?

Matt (26:10.329)
Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. I think that there's also, is this not a true principle that if there's a person that you're really compatible with in terms of like, you just really enjoy being in each other's company and you really enjoy just spending time together, doesn't that person become more physically attractive with time as you get to know them? you, yeah. So in some ways, you could be missing out if you're too focused on physical attraction.

Shawn (26:29.995)
Absolutely.

Shawn (26:39.531)
Oh for sure. Matt, I'd say that of all, there's two main reasons, we're at the age where our friends get divorces, right? And I'd say there are two main reasons that they get divorces. And probably the number one reason was, and this is a finger pointed at Melanie. Just kidding Melanie. I'd say the number one reason is because when they got married, their main glue, wasn't communication, it wasn't spirituality, it wasn't common interests, it was physical attraction and physical attraction alone.

Matt (26:39.962)
But.

Matt (26:45.636)
Yes.

Melanie Miles (26:47.126)
Hey

Matt (26:56.143)
They served in Oklahoma.

Shawn (27:09.813)
For me, I've seen so many divorces just because that's what their glue was. And it's just not enough. It's not enough. So take that Melanie. I'm just kidding. I know. I know, I'm just kidding.

Melanie Miles (27:16.958)
Yeah, I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating for physical attraction only. I just think you should know what you're going into before you go into a date. I just know like how I've reacted when I was blindsided.

Shawn (27:26.731)
100%. I was just kidding.

Matt (27:28.289)
You guys are both just saying that.

Shawn (27:33.652)
Yeah.

Matt (27:33.913)
And you're saying that physical attraction is greater than internet search history? That seems a horrible thing.

Shawn (27:38.165)
Yeah

Melanie Miles (27:40.886)
For a first date, physical attraction is going to mean more.

Matt (27:47.365)
All right, we're gonna move on to the next topic. So two of my favorite celebrities. Whenever Sean hears my favorite celebrities, he gets mad at me, but I love these two guys so much. Okay, Justin Bieber and Bear Grylls. Sean, do you know Bear Grylls? Do you like Justin Bieber? I love Justin Bieber so much. He's so good. Well, anyhow, recently they've both decided to become more open about their faith in Jesus Christ and the response has been mixed.

Shawn (27:59.477)
Yeah, I like Bear Grylls. What did you just say to me? Gah!

Melanie Miles (28:04.904)
you

Shawn (28:07.14)
Ugh.

Matt (28:16.611)
Many of Justin Bieber's friends are accusing him of being a part of a cult and they're encouraging him to make different life decisions. The question I have is when we see celebrities being more open about their faith in Jesus Christ, does it encourage us to do the same or does it make us less likely to share the gospel because we see these negative responses and we're afraid that our friends might do similar kinds of things to us?

Shawn (28:40.747)
Well, Matt, first, were you pleased when you heard these two come out with their Christian faith? You were so happy. Okay. Okay. Let me just point out that, I don't know, a year and a half ago, we talked about another celebrity who came out with some increased faith, actually started meeting with the missionaries. And I don't think you were that happy. I don't think you were that happy.

Matt (28:43.873)
I was so happy. I was so happy. Yeah.

Matt (28:56.043)
NBA Youngboy? I was thrilled. I was thrilled about NBA Youngboy. I became his biggest, I've never listened to his music, but I became a huge fan. Anyone that will meet with the missionaries. But do you remember when Chris Pratt, right? Chris Pratt started being more vocal about his faith and he had really negative reactions in the Hollywood.

Shawn (28:59.729)
I don't think you were.

Shawn (29:06.251)
Okay.

Shawn (29:14.027)
So here's an interesting take and then Melanie, I want your reaction to this, especially. I'm gonna make a bold claim. I don't know if this is true or not. think maybe today's celebrities have maybe less influence than they used to due to the fact that social media influencers are creating more frequent content. Like social media influencers are just in kids' faces all day long, all day long, all day long. So I'll give you an example.

So I was with a bunch of kids this weekend on a job and I started to make fun of what's called the fluff haircut. Melanie, do know what the fluff haircut is?

Melanie Miles (29:51.871)
No clue.

Shawn (29:53.235)
Okay, just when you finish this podcast, walk out the door and look at any boy that walks by and you will understand what the fluff haircut is. It's that old 90 year old grandma poof that's in the front of their heads.

Matt (30:04.931)
Yeah, yeah, it's really popular right now.

Shawn (30:08.607)
very annoyingly popular right now. That's right. That's right.

Melanie Miles (30:08.677)
dear.

Matt (30:13.061)
Sean, it's not just young guys. I see old men our age and older that have their hair like that.

Shawn (30:19.531)
I haven't ever seen an old man, I have seen a lot of grandmas that have that hair. It's a grandma haircut. It's an alpaca haircut. Okay, that's interesting. Okay, but my point is this. If you look at all the celebrities that are famous to... With a passion. With a passion, yeah. It is the thing that all of the boys today will look back and regret with their whole hearts.

Matt (30:24.899)
My stake president has that haircut.

Melanie Miles (30:31.538)
Wait, wait, you're hating on the fluff?

Melanie Miles (30:38.23)
dear.

Matt (30:47.533)
It's like the, when we were in ninth grade and the girls all like put their hair to the side and their bangs really tall and they hair sprayed it. It's the equivalent of that.

Shawn (30:55.775)
Yeah, that's right. Or the mullet. The 80s, 90s mullet.

Matt (30:59.363)
The mullet is back, Sean, the mullet is back.

Shawn (31:01.471)
Yeah, but they do it differently now. They do a good job with it now. Okay, maybe not. Okay. But Melanie, here's the interesting point. I can spend five minutes on Instagram and I'll find 20 influencer boys who have the fluff. You will not find a single famous celebrity who has the fluff. So I'm kind of thinking celebrities have less influence now. So does it matter that Justin Bieber came out as a

Matt (31:04.611)
They do not, not where I'm, not where I live.

Melanie Miles (31:05.93)
They don't.

Shawn (31:30.601)
semi-Christian or is a full-on Christian? I don't know that it does as much, but if influencers, I think influencers have more influence over the kids these days. What do you think of that?

Matt (31:32.901)
For sure.

Melanie Miles (31:42.226)
Yeah, I think there are just so many people with large realms of media influence that people can just select the influencers and celebrities they want to listen to and they want to hear from. Cause there are just so many choices.

Matt (31:54.037)
But what about this idea that this is where I thought you were going with influencers, Sean. I know people who don't actually watch the news and don't actually really pay attention to things. All they do is watch some influencers reaction to the news and some person on social media reacting to all of these things. And they formulate their opinion about what's happening in the world based on somebody on social media's reaction to it. I thought you were going to say like the reaction, right? So my question is like,

When you see the reactions people have to, so and so is a Christian or so and so is open about their faith. And there's this big reaction. Doesn't that influence what you think about whether you should come out and say, I'm a Christian too, or he made a big difference in my life, or the Bible can actually really help you.

Shawn (32:39.851)
I if that's the question, then my answer is no. I don't care. I don't care if I get, I live in California and there's a lot of evangelical Protestants here. They don't like us. I love talking with them and they rip us apart. I don't mind talking with them. I'm not gonna hide it. I like it. like, know what I mean? Like it depends on where your foundation and your testimony is. If you're a disciple of Christ, you're gonna put it out there. You're wear it on your sleeve. So no, I don't, if that's your question, I don't.

Matt (33:06.437)
That's my question. What do you say, Melanie?

Melanie Miles (33:13.034)
I think influencers are a really interesting part of today's culture, but I like, I don't know.

Matt (33:22.661)
Okay, that was great, Melanie.

Shawn (33:23.248)
hahahahah

Melanie Miles (33:24.854)
Yeah, sorry, you guys cut out for a minute there so I couldn't chime in super well.

Matt (33:31.375)
She's like, I don't know. I'll ask it again, Melanie. When you see all of the negative reaction people have to Christians or people being open about their faith, does that make you want to shy away from being as open about your faith?

Shawn (33:32.01)
Melanie Miles (33:45.588)
That question makes a lot more sense.

I think it depends because there's like a part of me that likes to be honry right and say you don't like who I am well take that I'm gonna be who I am even more but I also think when something is as important to a person as religion often is to people it's really hard to say this is something that's important to me and something that I love and everybody hates it like the more important something is the less likely you are to share it when it's gonna be negatively received

Shawn (34:05.331)
Nice.

Matt (34:17.828)
Right.

Melanie Miles (34:22.734)
But I think there's power in being able to say like, these other people are willing to take the hate so I can take it too.

Matt (34:23.652)
Yeah.

Matt (34:32.389)
So what do you guys think about this idea? Somebody told me a story today. They said that like they were at the park, they were walking like by the river or something and their kid was riding a bike and their kid like brushed into somebody that was walking and that person who was walking, the kid apologized, but that person was walking like sort of hit his kid upside the head and said something like, what are you doing? Why aren't you thinking or something like that? And so this parent goes up and says, Hey, listen, my son apologized. You shouldn't behave that way.

And the man sort of back down and sort of was like, yeah, you're right. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that. But then his wife got really upset and agitated and started screaming and yelling. And so in the end, the dad was just sort of like, I'm going to be a peacemaker and I'm just going to walk away. Like if somebody tells me a story like that, then I can just sort of say, well, you know, those are those people had a reaction, but that's not a normal thing that doesn't usually happen. But I think that if you were to see that on social media,

or you were to see that on and then we're supposed to, it was go viral or something and you see it played over and over and over again. It starts to have this effect where you think like, this is what everybody does. And you would say, well, maybe I need to be more careful about how I ride my bike because you never know. Like, so there's all these angry people out there that could get really agitated and upset. And what if they had a gun and then it'd be so scary. I think there's something about media that like, if you see it over and over again, it makes you start to change your perception of how things really are.

and it makes you sort of react in a more defensive posture.

Shawn (36:04.843)
Interesting. I don't know. guess it does depend on the person. My personal opinion. I'm with Melanie. Man, I'm with Melanie on every topic here. I'm like, bring the pain. Let me suffer for what I believe in and what my faith is. I'll stand up for it. I mean, obviously, I got to make a judgment call to not put myself in danger or risk my family. I'm not going to approach some other situation if I know there's danger involved. But no, let the negative come. I don't mind it.

Matt (36:14.339)
Yeah, you guys are.

Melanie Miles (36:15.529)
Yeah!

Matt (36:32.557)
I know, I like you. guys, I admire both of you, because you're more that way than I am. When I see people being courageous and standing up for the gospel or sharing the gospel, I always admire that because I think, man, I'm the one that kind of shirks more. Like I'm more, I wish there was social media content full of, and maybe I'm wrong, but full of missionaries sharing the gospel boldly and proudly and unabashedly. And maybe I just follow the wrong channels or something.

on social media.

Shawn (37:05.033)
Well, you've got Justin Bieber if you don't have those channels.

Matt (37:07.301)
That's right. Okay, here's the big question. This was a big story for people who care about religious liberty and I know that it got overshadowed by other things. So I wanna just make sure we hit on this and talk about it. So the Supreme Court recently let stand a lower court ruling that permitted the transfer of Oak Flat. That's a site of significant spiritual value to the Western Apache Indians in central Arizona.

They let that land transfer from the government to a copper mining company. Justice Gorsuch dissented, arguing that the court owed the Apaches a hearing given the plan to destroy an ancient tribal worship site. The majority, however, offered no explanation for declining the case. This outcome is widely seen as a direct assault on the religious liberties of the Western Apache. If, as some argue, a threat to the liberties of one group

poses a threat to the liberty of all, does this hold true for religious liberty? Does this perceived assault on the Western Apache's religious freedom diminish overall religious freedom in the United States?

Shawn (38:17.277)
I jeesh, Matt, this is a tough one. listen, your question is, this is an issue of religious freedom on public lands. Now, arguing, going back and arguing, you know, is it a good thing that these are public lands and not lands that belong to the Apache Indians? You know what mean? But we can't debate that, right? That's what the reality is. It exists that these are public lands, right?

Matt (38:35.799)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (38:43.503)
Wouldn't it be nice if the Apache Indians could have purchased the land, right, and protected it themselves. But with religious liberty, that's often the case, right? It's like, I'm a religious group. This area is sacred to me. Think of like the sacred grove for us or something like that, right? This area is sacred to me. I can't afford to buy it as a church, but the government owns it, so could you please just preserve it? Because it matters a lot to us.

Shawn (39:07.455)
Yeah, but see, yeah, but see, that's where I think the line gets drawn. Of course you shouldn't trust the government to do the right thing. Say it with me, Matt, on the count of three, say it with me. One, two, three. Of course you shouldn't trust, you didn't say it.

Melanie Miles (39:19.958)
You

Matt (39:21.381)
But Sean, we have religious freedom, right? Well, they're selling these public lands to a copper company.

Shawn (39:23.989)
But not on public lands you don't.

Shawn (39:29.983)
That's right, because it's the government and they're making the wrong decision. They're messing with someone else's... They're not going to do the right thing. They're going to make a bunch of money. Some politicians are making a bunch of money. Copper, are you kidding me? What? Yeah.

Matt (39:42.221)
Right. Copper is really valuable right now. Like we need copper for national security or whatever.

Shawn (39:46.749)
No, we need it for phones and batteries. So it's so yeah, mean, Matt, you're making my argument that I always make with the big government often, more often than not causes problems. Right? So I mean, we can't really debate that topic of should the land belong to the Apache or not, it's done, it's over. But I just don't see how you could possibly expect public

Melanie Miles (39:47.663)
you

Matt (39:49.381)
I don't know.

Shawn (40:11.719)
lands to not be used in the way that the self-interested government's going to use them. They're not going to go altruistic. They're not going to be altruistic.

Matt (40:17.477)
The interest of government is supposed to be protecting the religious liberty of all. So it feels to me like when we talk about religious liberty, it's like, let's pass this law telling people what they can and can't do, right? you want to, go ahead.

Shawn (40:31.999)
But Matt, this, but this is why private property is talked about in the doctrine of covenants. This is why private property is actually a sacred thing because they cannot do anything. If those Apache Indians had their own private property and this sacred site was there, they can have the freedom to worship. That's why private property is so sacred. The fact that it's public lands gives them no rights.

Melanie Miles (40:52.618)
But then what if you don't have the means, what if you don't have the means to acquire the private property to worship in the way you'd like?

Matt (40:52.815)
Well, I imagine...

Shawn (41:00.967)
I I mean, you keep striving and striving. I mean, that's kind of tough luck, right? That's not like, it's not like I have the right to own whatever I want. It's not like I have the right to own whatever I want.

Matt (41:11.279)
to worship.

Melanie Miles (41:12.64)
But I guess we can look at the saints in Kirtland, right? And they built their temple and it was their private property, but then it was taken away and they fled. But like, shouldn't the government have intervened there? Was that not what we wanted?

Shawn (41:20.733)
and tough, right? And that sucked.

Matt (41:27.641)
or Nauvoo, when they kicked us out of Nauvoo. Of course, it was a different country then.

Shawn (41:32.427)
No, no, no. But then that's a different topic. Yes, I don't think the government should have taken the land of the Apache Indians in the beginning, right? So of course, there shouldn't have been an extermination order. Our ancestors should not have lost all that. All of that was wrong. But we live in a situation today where it did happen. We can't go back and claim, well, the government owes that to us. No, it's just, that's life.

Matt (41:40.536)
Yeah.

Matt (41:56.463)
Well, well, so setting this setting this specific case aside, what do you think of the idea that, when one group loses liberty, it threatens the liberty of everybody, right? So

Shawn (42:08.403)
I just think this is a qualified question. Insert public lands and that's not the topic. don't think, there's no discussion to say, where's the phrase? Yeah. you can't say a threat to the religious liberties on private lands of one group poses a threat to the religious liberty of all on private land, on public lands. It just doesn't apply.

Matt (42:37.381)
But that's where it should apply the most, If I go to the national, public lands by definition are owned by the people, not by the government, right? So of all spaces where your religious liberty should be protected, it should be on private land or public land, right? So if you're taking public land away and you're saying you can no longer practice religion on public land, then that is the government destroying religious freedom for everybody.

Shawn (42:47.253)
But what if...

Shawn (43:03.701)
So, but what if 10 groups claim that that spiritual sacred site that's on public land is their own religious sacred site? Like what do do then?

Matt (43:13.325)
all the more reason to protect it. So then they can.

Shawn (43:16.073)
But what if one contradicts the other? And what if the others don't want the other one to worship the way they worship? You know what mean? Public lands throws the monkey wrench and all this. Yeah, Melody!

Melanie Miles (43:23.23)
Like maybe my religion is copper mining.

Matt (43:26.273)
geez. Well, so that's the challenge with private property, right? If there's, if there's contested public space and we just say, whoever has the most money gets to buy the rights to do what they want there. And everybody else has to give up those rights because they don't have the money. That's the downside of private property. Public property should say everybody owns the land. Everybody has equal access to worship on the land.

And as long as your worshiping doesn't diminish the liberties of anyone else, feel free to do it. If those are competing with each other, then we have to find some way to like get along and allow everyone to worship in that space.

Shawn (44:01.923)
And that would never ever ever happen. Your plan of Marxist share everything is not gonna work, It would never happen.

Matt (44:07.781)
Well, I don't know. I don't know if I go to like Independence, Missouri, there's lots, lots of different churches there that own land and or want to build temples there. Like, but I mean, it's private land, I don't know. I think of all the things where the government should be protecting religious freedom. It should be on public lands.

Shawn (44:20.427)
That's right. That's right. Private problem. Yeah, that's right. It's private.

Melanie Miles (44:23.142)
Yeah, not to make Sean's point, but it's private.

Shawn (44:27.051)
you

Matt (44:35.247)
that are not even being used by anybody who cares what's underneath the earth there. Let the

Shawn (44:37.163)
I've just not I've just never looked at private lands that I have a right to my religious worship on a private land. I view that as you the big brother government you own that you're going to do whatever the heck you want on that. I've never felt like I own that I can do I should be able to do whatever I want. Do you?

Matt (44:56.741)
Well, I will tell you Sean, if you set religion aside, in the world that I occupy, I think California maybe doesn't have as many public lands as like Utah and Idaho, but I will tell you 100%, the people who live in Idaho feel like they should be able to do whatever they wanna do on public land and they get upset when the government puts any restrictions on behavior on public land, because they feel like it's public land and we should do what we wanna do.

Shawn (45:20.829)
And that expectation sets you up for a life of disappointment. Of course, you're not going to be able to do what you want to do on government lands. What are you talking about?

Matt (45:27.597)
You're such a Californian. You're such a Californian. You don't even do what you want to do on your own land. Sean, can you just build another building next to your house if you want to? No, no.

Shawn (45:35.967)
No one can in the state they live in. You have to get permits, you don't work.

Melanie Miles (45:41.088)
Do you? Do you really?

Matt (45:41.591)
I don't think so.

Shawn (45:43.967)
You do have to get permits to build. Yes you do.

Matt (45:48.257)
Only if it's a structure of a certain size. When I was in Kansas, I knew the size of a building that needed a permit. And so you just keep it beneath that size. But you could build like eight of these smaller buildings next to each other.

Shawn (45:56.715)
I can do that here too in California.

Melanie Miles (46:00.182)
you

Matt (46:01.955)
Okay, how big of a building can you build without a permit, That's like a closet. That's not a building.

Shawn (46:03.755)
10 foot by 12 foot. you yidoh homes with your big homes.

Melanie Miles (46:12.406)
Could we build bigger than that?

Matt (46:14.519)
No, we couldn't. What if they find some kind of like endangered species beetle on your property, then that ruins everything for you. Then you're, you're stuck.

Shawn (46:15.369)
hahahaha

Shawn (46:26.761)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. I agree. Yeah, I agree.

Matt (46:28.069)
Yeah, but that doesn't happen here. We just kill the beetle. We just stomp on it, smash it, it's gone. All right, well, I thought I could get you guys to like talk about how our religious liberties diminished as Latter-day Saints because of this thing. I have a lot of lawyer friends that are really concerned about this, but didn't work. Yeah, all right. Hey, thanks you guys. This has been an awesome episode. Listener, thanks for joining us.

Shawn (46:48.629)
Yeah, tough luck. It's a good question though.

Matt (46:57.29)
and we will talk to you again next week.