Matt (00:01.56)
Hello everybody and welcome to the Latter Day Lens Podcast. I'm your host Matt. With me today as always is Sean and we have a special guest this week. Mark is with us. How are you guys doing?

Marc (00:13.172)
All right.

Okay.

Matt (00:17.375)
Hahaha

Shawn (00:17.409)
I'm glad you're okay, Mark.

Matt (00:21.174)
Yeah, that sounded that sounded a little bit okay, Mark, a little bit of sounded not okay. Are you sure you're okay?

Marc (00:28.159)
A little bit of the cereal I'm eating got stuck.

Matt (00:30.655)
I see, okay, all right.

Shawn (00:31.565)
Mark is getting beat down by all of the bad things that Donald Trump has been doing lately and he's just, right Mark? You're just.

Matt (00:37.11)
Yeah. I'm sure he's feeling super sad inside.

Marc (00:41.481)
it's terrible. I hate all this winning. And it's not winning.

Shawn (00:46.265)
Ha ha.

Matt (00:47.31)
We don't do a video podcast, if you guys could see Mark's picture right now, it's a picture of Donald Trump in Papal gear. So actually.

Marc (00:57.017)
you can find it on the official White House X account.

Matt (01:01.185)
really? So Trump is sort of promoting this idea of him being like the Pope.

Shawn (01:07.001)
Yes he is.

Matt (01:08.27)
Marc (01:08.316)
or he could even be the pope. I mean, he just has to be baptized Catholic and Bob's your uncle.

Matt (01:14.926)
Do you think that the Pope has more power than the President of the United States?

Okay, I just want to so be it'd like a demotion. It's like the equivalent of if Trump decided to like put a picture of him working in a McDonald's drive-thru or something like that. It's the same kind of thing as that.

Marc (01:32.882)
Yeah, he's just trying to appeal to the people of Rome and the Vatican.

Matt (01:37.772)
or to say, I am so bored in my job. I want something else to do with my life. Okay. All right, let's open the mailbag. Okay, so one listener wrote in, they said, I was just innocently riding my bike on my way to the temple, righteously minding my own business, dangerously listening to your latest rating of Trump's first hundred days, and I promptly plowed into this freshly finished concrete sidewalk square. So.

Marc (01:43.868)
There's a lot of Cardinals.

Matt (02:05.934)
I appreciate that listener. It's true, we're entertaining, but we think you should be cautious if you listen to the podcast while driving or riding a bike. also, Sean, what do you think of the idea that they're listening to the podcast on their way to the temple? Like we're good content pre-temple, right?

Shawn (02:21.317)
That's right, that's right. And thank you for your PSA, Matt.

Matt (02:24.398)
This listener sent me a photo. They really on their bike drove right through some freshly poured cement on the sidewalk. I was like, wow, I'm glad we can be a distraction to life.

Shawn (02:32.805)
I wonder Yeah, I wonder whose comments triggered them to be so focused not triggered, but I assume it was Motivated good good good get on the way the temple

Matt (02:41.878)
It motivated them. Yeah.

Marc (02:44.913)
I've been known to motivate.

Matt (02:48.485)
So listener Sam, Sam decided to check in after our last episode. I think we triggered Sam a little bit in our discussion about what should happen to wealth after people die. So I'm going to read this exactly as he texted it because at first I was super excited, but then it took me a couple of days of thinking about it where I decided I think maybe he was being sarcastic. Okay, here's what he said. Regarding the Zapposts case, just letting you know, I agree 100 % with Matt.

Upon a founder's death, a company's employees should be able to suck off the carcass of that company in perpetuity. Meanwhile, in other news, OSHA and various police agencies report an unexpected rise in industrial accidents and homicides.

Shawn (03:29.849)
Are those two supposed to be related, do think?

Matt (03:32.654)
Yeah, I think this is him saying he actually doesn't agree with me, especially the way he said he agreed with me where he says the employees should be able to suck off the carcass. Like, come on. I think this is him being sarcastic. What I think what he's saying is employees, if they know that they're going to get all of the wealth of the company after the founder dies, they would kill the people, right? There'd be an unexpected rise in homicides at the workplace.

Shawn (03:57.763)
You may take, you should take liberties to just put words, the meaning into his words, because he's not here.

Matt (04:01.974)
Okay, so you don't think that's what he's saying?

Shawn (04:04.791)
I don't know if those two are related. I'm not sure if he was saying, hey guys, talk about OSHA and police agencies.

Matt (04:06.891)
Okay

No, he doesn't care. No, I think maybe he's also

Shawn (04:13.433)
What do mean you you know how passionate Sam is about OSHA? Come on

Matt (04:16.718)
I know he dislikes OSHA. I think there's this part of him that's saying like maybe the employees would kill each other off maybe to try to get more of that wealth.

Shawn (04:27.749)
I'm not gonna guess. Oh, do you think that's what he's saying?

Matt (04:32.533)
I think, I don't know. Sam, you're welcome to join us again on the podcast and clear up some of this misconception that we have. But mostly I'm just happy you texted us. Whenever I see a text from Sam, it makes me feel happy inside. So thank you, Sam. Okay, we're gonna, I looked back at the show notes for this podcast episode. This one could be kind of called like Pete Buttigieg, we love you so much, something like that.

Shawn (04:34.533)
You

Shawn (04:47.909)
Me too.

Shawn (05:01.669)
This one what this episode?

Matt (05:03.554)
Yeah, this episode I decided I've got a lot of Pete Buttigieg in here. I don't, I don't really love Pete Buttigieg, but he's been making the rounds on podcasts and stuff saying things and so.

Marc (05:05.319)
So.

Shawn (05:06.725)
Okay, alright.

Shawn (05:13.509)
I mean, after you have such a good performance when you're part of a prior administration, you have to make the rounds, right?

Matt (05:21.548)
Yeah, okay, you're being sarcastic, aren't you, Sean?

Shawn (05:22.821)
No Yeah, he was supposed to he was supposed to put in with the millions and billions of dollars of taxpayer money He's supposed to put in some charging stations that the government was putting out and he did like he did like three of them Something like that mark. Come on, know these details. Give us give us the people to judge failures

Matt (05:27.47)
Marc (05:34.062)
well, if I'm remembering correctly, I think the government put down 400 million, is what I want to say, on the charging stations and they built one.

Matt (05:36.847)
huh.

Matt (05:54.644)
okay.

Shawn (05:55.971)
Under Pete Buttigieg. So good job, man. Let's listen to what Buttigieg has to say

Marc (05:58.369)
that and lowering the FAA admission standards for air traffic controllers, that was smooth.

Matt (06:05.678)
Hmm. Interesting. Okay. These are things I was not aware of.

Shawn (06:06.405)
Is this not the tone you wanted when you started quoting people to do? Okay.

Matt (06:11.744)
It's fine. No, I don't mind. It's fine. I started by saying I don't necessarily love Pete Buttigieg. This is all reminded me of a different story. Last night, my wife and I went to a concert at BYU-Idaho. Jenny Oakes Baker put together this kind of like orchestra that travels around and they were doing religious themed music, which I love. I love religious themed orchestral music, but they...

Shawn (06:17.539)
that's true.

Shawn (06:38.367)
Yeah, she came to just as a side note. came to did that performance in San Diego and my wife's choir was the one hired to do the whole orchestral and choral thing. Anyway, that's cool.

Matt (06:48.502)
Okay, all right. So I wonder if you had the same soloist that we had. There was this, the man that was the tenor soloist looked to me, he looked exactly like JD Vance. And so the whole time of the concert, just couldn't really like, whenever he would sing, I would just picture JD Vance in my head singing this. And it kind of like, messed with my head a little bit, because it didn't seem right of like JD Vance singing, pretending to be John the Baptist or something like that singing.

Shawn (07:13.284)
Real.

real JD Vance or the meme that goes around of the cartoon like round face JD Vance? Which one?

Matt (07:21.134)
Well, okay, so have to, in my world at BYU-Idaho, not very many men have beards, right? So if there's a man, a white man with a beard with like gray in it, to me that looks like JD Vance.

Shawn (07:35.299)
Whoa, what?

Marc (07:35.642)
Did they have eyeliner on?

Matt (07:38.221)
he probably did, right? Because he was on stage.

Marc (07:39.691)
See? That'll stop.

Shawn (07:40.889)
That's right. Does this does this does this relate to your question?

Matt (07:46.158)
No, not at all, but I was just, when you guys were talking about Pete Buttigieg not doing well in office and then going around doing other things after he's done in office, I thought, no, it just made me think of like, like JD Vance doing Easter concerts or something like that. But anyhow.

Shawn (07:53.765)
You think Jenny Vance

Shawn (08:00.14)
yeah, yeah. There you go.

Marc (08:01.163)
You know, speaking of people in the last administration who did absolutely nothing for the American people, I saw John Kerry a week and a half ago.

Matt (08:09.218)
Wow. What was he doing, Mark?

Marc (08:12.04)
Walking by me.

Matt (08:13.676)
Wait, in Utah, John. Wow, okay, that's fun.

Marc (08:15.996)
No, in Boston, Massachusetts.

I was there in my British army uniform from the Revolutionary War and he just walked by and, Stay out of trouble boys!

Matt (08:25.506)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (08:30.67)
Did you ask for a selfie with him?

Marc (08:32.477)
There wasn't even time, I was, aghast. Gawky. Flabbergast.

Matt (08:34.764)
Yeah. Of all the things to say to revolutionary war and actors, stay out of trouble boys. That's a good story, Okay. Well, speaking of people who were in Boston, Pete Buduchich was in Boston. He was at Harvard. And so he talked about misinformation. He said that misinformation is a weapon more devastating than nuclear arms in fracturing American society.

He pointed to Russia's strategy of promoting contradictory messages, specifically during the COVID pandemic. He said like, they would put out one message that was anti-vax and another message that was pro-vax to the same people at really close to the same time, because all they really wanted was to create fighting and tensions and division in American society. And so he's saying like, that is a better weapon at dividing America than if they just dropped a nuclear weapon somewhere, dropped a bomb somewhere.

So he says that technological advances have undermined traditional evidence verification, creating a paradox where we have never had more information, but been less informed at the same time. His primary solution for this is reconnecting offline, noting that people who are horrible from behind a keyboard often transform when they encounter somebody in person. Buticic advocates for creating circumstances that pull people offline.

He also said that military service can provide that benefit as do other patterns of belonging that are not predicted by political affiliation such as faith communities, neighborhood groups, and sports teams. He says that having these overlapping circles are vital for building resilience against misinformation that's designed to pit Americans against each other. So my question is, if...

misinformation is being weaponized by our enemies, not our political enemies in the United States, but by our global enemies. What is the best way to combat misinformation?

Shawn (10:36.549)
What do think Mark? You want to tackle first?

Marc (10:38.645)
Well, the Holy Ghost will reveal to you the truth of all things. So, I think that's our first step is to have the Spirit with you because what did President Nelson say? That in these last days you need that more now than ever before to avoid being deceived.

Matt (10:43.16)
Hmm.

Matt (10:56.034)
That's true. But what if, yeah, sometimes it feels like it's hard to know. So the example Pete Buttigieg uses is he's like, back in the day, if you had a photograph of something, then that would provide evidence and you could say, well, look, here's a picture of this. So it must have happened. But today, since there's deep fakes, AI deep fakes and all that stuff, a photo isn't necessarily proof. But will the Holy Ghost necessarily tell you like, hey, that picture's off. You should be.

careful of what you believe based on that photo or that video.

Marc (11:28.567)
I would think so. Or it would at tell you the importance you should attach to whatever.

Matt (11:30.146)
Huh. What do you think?

Matt (11:37.582)
So there was like the Lakers just lost in the NBA playoffs and I was scrolling through Facebook and there was a video of Luka Doncic asking to be traded from the Lakers. And he said this like wild and crazy quote and everything about it looked real. So what you're saying Mark is maybe the Holy Ghost would say to me, don't worry about so much about if Luka Doncic wants to be traded, it's not that important.

Shawn (12:04.421)
You

Marc (12:05.838)
Well, I mean, is Luka Donchich whatever? How important is he to you and your spiritual survival?

Matt (12:14.392)
Well, I really liked the Los Angeles Lakers and so I get satisfaction when they win. Yeah, but but I what I did in that situation is I looked for other news sources that could corroborate that and then I saw, the only place that actually has a video like this is Facebook had it and X had it and so then I was like, okay, this has got to be fake. Like I didn't go to the Holy Ghost. I just went to say.

Marc (12:17.086)
that nothing good comes out of California.

Matt (12:42.382)
Am I seeing this from any other legitimate news source? And if I didn't, since I didn't, then I said, it must not be true. Is that an okay way to do it?

Marc (12:53.315)
Good on you. Yeah.

Shawn (12:55.641)
Matt, think there's, well, you're wise, Matt. I would consider you wise. If I was talking about you behind your back, which I do all the time, the final thing I'd end on before I rip you apart would be he's really a wise guy because definition of wise is experienced, knowledgeable, and good judgment. And I love that you have the ability to see both sides of anything. And I think you are never accepting of the first message. You're always like,

Matt (13:04.781)
all the time.

Matt (13:23.084)
Yeah, that's probably true.

Shawn (13:24.515)
Yeah. And I love that about you. My wife's that way. I try to be that way. So I think, I think being a skeptic of everything in today's age is probably the right way to go. Don't believe anything we see anything we read before you go in and do the hard work, right? The scriptures do say truth is revealed. Like the mysteries are revealed to those who diligently seek. Have you said that though? I'll pile onto Mark's topic. I think the two things that allow us to really get discernment through the Holy ghost would be one,

We do have to diligently seek the principles that govern. And once we've done that, then we can get the spirit. For example, what principle would govern the importance of Luka Donsic wanting to be traded for the Lakers? I don't know that there is one. I'm not sure that, right? I'm not sure that there is. I'm not sure that although God does say, you know, go ahead and ask and knock and wary me and I won't upgrade, right? Upgrade. He promises not to.

Marc (13:55.81)
you

Matt (14:05.966)
There's none.

Matt (14:15.598)
Yeah, you can ask, but sometimes you don't get the answer.

Shawn (14:19.203)
Yeah, and sometimes I think he's like, you know, go ahead and research that yourself. You know what mean? I think that's typically the answer from God is go research yourself. You'll find out the truth really quickly. But the prince, but there are guiding principles. Like, for example, in the news lately, if you guys know who Mahmoud Khalil is Columbia Columbia University, he's part of the he's here on a visa. He's part of the Columbia University Apartheid Divest Group, which is a group that praises Yaya Senor.

Marc (14:33.892)
yeah.

Matt (14:35.048)
Mm-hmm. No.

Shawn (14:47.577)
Like they give this big tribute to the guy who was the, I think he was like the mastermind of October 7th. And so the Trump administration says you're out of here and they kick him out of the country. And there's this huge debate about, well, is that the right thing or is that the wrong thing? And half the people say, well, he's obviously a terrorist, which some would go, no, he's not, that's misinformation. And other people would say, well, he is a terrorist because he's a part of a group that praised Sinwar.

Marc (15:10.92)
.

Shawn (15:17.059)
And that's misinformation. know, so there's this debate. So is there a guiding principle that can help us understand these things before we take it to the Lord? I don't know. You think there are?

Matt (15:26.828)
Yeah, yeah. Seek the truth, right? It says seek and you shall find. So you can't, you don't just go right to the Lord in prayer without doing a little bit of leg, I mean you can, right? You pray and ask to be guided as you're looking for truth.

Shawn (15:34.105)
It does, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marc (15:36.351)
.

Shawn (15:39.845)
So in this case you would say, okay, I did my research and I found out that yes, he was a member of this Columbia University apartheid group that did praise this terrorist. Now he didn't materially support this terrorist group, which by law is what would kick him out. So would you maybe default to, okay, there's a principle called free speech in America. And just because I don't agree with this dude, I don't think he should be kicked out.

Matt (16:03.416)
Well, that's what the courts did, right? The court said you have a right to free speech and that's why they ruled that he can stay in the country. Yeah.

Shawn (16:10.861)
I so. think so. So there you go. There you got a bunch of principles, right? Before you even, like, obviously I think scripture teaches us you have to do your due diligence. So if I study that situation and go, well, I think the principle there would be free speech. Then perhaps I can take it to the Lord and say, I think even though I disagree with what he says and he's an evil bad dude, he has the freedom to do so or talk that way unless he does something materially wrong.

Matt (16:36.066)
Did you guys see the interview that Donald Trump did with ABC News on his 100 day mark? You probably didn't, but I did. Yeah, yeah, I like to watch network news. So if it's like on TV, the antenna TV, I'll usually record it and watch it. So.

Shawn (16:42.981)
You watched it? Okay.

Marc (16:52.298)
Thank you.

Shawn (16:52.549)
Are you bringing up the M313 tattoo? M313 tattoo? There you go, another one, right?

Matt (16:55.98)
Yeah, the MS-13, right? Trump says to this reporter he had MS-13 tattooed on his fingers and the reporter says, no he didn't, that was photoshopped. And Trump says, I can't believe you believe that that's photoshopped. It's right there in a picture. And he's like, but it's a fake picture. It's not really there.

Shawn (17:11.353)
There's a whole bunch of fake news right there on both sides, right? Two people talking about the back of their heads, claiming stuff that they, you know, that's, that's a good example right there.

Matt (17:15.074)
I mean, yeah, have, don't, that.

Matt (17:21.932)
Right? That was something I didn't investigate because I actually don't care if the guy has some tattoo on his fingers, but it was, it's an example of somebody saw a photo of something and so they say that must be true. And then somebody else says, well, that photo was doctored. It's not an accurate photo or what did the reporter say? The reporter said that there was another photo taken of this man in El Salvador and he didn't have the tattoo on his finger in that photo. And so,

Shawn (17:50.649)
But I think, but I think that's all good part of the due diligence. Just don't jump to any conclusions yet. Just say like, like I've seen online a lot of debates and a lot of people analyzing those photos and what the tattoos mean. And you bring in like gang specialists who say, yes, the tattoos mean this. they other people say, doesn't. There's definitely not a lot of clarity on it, but that's the due diligence you have to do. And then I agree with Mark. If you truly truly want to know truth, you would

Matt (17:50.882)
That previous photo must have been fake.

Matt (18:11.927)
Yeah.

Shawn (18:18.959)
you would pray about that and you try and find the answer right

Matt (18:22.318)
What do you think about Pete Buttigieg's argument that if misinformation is designed to divide us as a society, what we should do is find ways to connect with our political opponents or with everyone in society so that the misinformation doesn't divide us. So it's sort of like, who cares if he had MS-13 tattooed or not? That doesn't matter. What matters is you're a person, I'm a person, we care about each other. And so then it doesn't even matter whether the

Shawn (18:38.201)
build communities.

Marc (18:44.44)
.

Matt (18:52.374)
what's right and what's wrong, what's true and what's not true in a photo or some piece of political information.

Shawn (18:58.883)
Yeah, think, yeah, I don't think it solves it, but I think it's a good suggestion. Yeah, build community, right? Of course.

Marc (18:59.033)
I agree wholeheartedly.

Matt (19:08.406)
Okay, I'll give both of you the points on that.

Marc (19:10.618)
Yay!

Shawn (19:11.821)
And Matt, and I'll give you the points on that.

Matt (19:14.342)
thank you so much. Okay, so now it's time to talk. I specifically chose today to talk Trump and Doge because I was like, I have Sean who loves Doge. I have Mark who loves Trump. So I'll bring up the negative Doge stuff and we'll see what they say. And we'll bring up the negative Trump stuff and see what Mark says. So first it's you Sean, Doge. So let's talk about Doge. I found all the negative stuff I could find about Doge so that you could tell me what you think. Again, it's Pete Buttigieg.

Shawn (19:25.101)
Yeah

Shawn (19:30.947)
Heh.

Shawn (19:43.791)
Yeah.

Matt (19:43.81)
but he kind of goes on the attack of Doge. Okay, so Sean's always telling us that Doge is helping make government more efficient and reducing fraud and waste. Pete Buttigieg says that the approach Doge took was all wrong, that it's more about consolidating power than actually creating an efficient government. He says, if you really wanted to create efficiency or reduce fraud and waste, rather than methodically evaluating program effectiveness or employee performance,

performance, which would do that. Doge simply just fired people based on a category like being a probationary employee without properly assessing whether or not that was actually going to be efficient. And it even affected experienced employees like seven year veterans at the FAA. I mean, I don't know this, but apparently there's some, some stuff with Pete Buttigieg and the FAA. Kassu secretary of transportation. Okay. Okay.

Shawn (20:39.567)
the

Marc (20:41.191)
And a stunning success at it.

Matt (20:43.904)
So Pete Buttigieg contends that Doge lacks the time or process for proper evaluation, making decisions based on White House favor rather than merit. In addition, there's a Senate report out there that suggests that Doge cuts could help Elon Musk's companies avoid $2 billion in liabilities. Doge doesn't actually provide links to verify the claims they've made about how much money they have saved the American government.

But the BBC News tried to figure out the savings from Doge and their best guess of how much money Doge actually saved is somewhere between $16 and $32 billion. So my question, is Doge more about reducing fraud and waste or helping Musk and his companies avoid paying regulatory fees?

Shawn (21:28.581)
I like that Yeah, I like that you would be outraged outraged that someone in government would be potentially trying to better themselves. I can't believe it.

Matt (21:32.462)
I'm coming after you, Sean.

You

Matt (21:43.33)
Well, I know that you're opposed to that. That's why I picked that specific thing. Does that enrage you, If Musk really was just trying to make sure that his companies don't have to pay taxes or paid like fees or whatever.

Shawn (21:46.949)
Well

Shawn (21:57.025)
Of course, if that were the case. We don't know that that's the case, but if it were the case.

Matt (21:59.582)
well, it's a Senate report. So the report that says that, yeah, that claim that that's what Musk was doing that comes from the United States Senate, I would imagine they don't put out reports without investigating it a little bit.

Shawn (22:03.599)
What's the Senate report people to judges findings?

Shawn (22:15.365)
I think I was it wasn't it just Buddha judge saying that I didn't I didn't read the report

Matt (22:18.53)
No, no, that one was, Budačić said that they weren't efficient. Budačić says they just came in and fired people like, hey, we're going to get rid of DEI.

Shawn (22:25.325)
All the other reports simply said, Hey, Musk could potentially save or avoid 2 billion in liabilities. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. I mean, look, I hope you would show as much interest in, for example, Nancy Pelosi, who

Matt (22:29.676)
Yeah, that's the Senate report. it? it? Yeah.

Matt (22:40.142)
I don't care. Wait, you gotta tell me because you always tell me Sean how happy you are with Doge. So you gotta tell me why Doge is great even if Elon Musk even if he did save himself $2 billion. That's fine.

Shawn (22:47.779)
Okay, Sure, sure, sure.

Sure. Well, what part of libertarian smaller government is better that you understand? Like, of course. Look, if this was the Biden administration and they says we're going to create a department called Doge and we're going to tackle everything that they're tackling now and they start attacking programs that seem a little more conservative, I'd just I'd be so happy. I'd be so happy. I'd be so happy because the libertarian concept of smaller government, more power to the states is a good one. I think it's principle, but.

Matt (23:12.11)
I would be mad.

Marc (23:12.325)
you

Marc (23:18.748)
Okay.

Shawn (23:23.153)
Matt (23:24.174)
So what you're saying, Sean, is you don't care, you don't care like if he cut a trillion, if he cut 100 billion, if he cut 5 billion, and you don't necessarily care where exactly he cut it. The fact that he cut anything at all makes you happy.

Shawn (23:36.749)
No, no,

Matt (23:56.686)
But that BBC report, they went through and they looked at that and they said, they're way exaggerating what they're doing. Like, like the...

Shawn (24:03.287)
I look through it as well and BBC is a pretty, at this point, a pretty biased reporting source. They are.

Matt (24:10.286)
I see. So you're saying that you're saying you don't trust BBC's estimate that dodge may be cut better and more and bigger things.

Shawn (24:18.211)
I don't trust their estimate, no. They're definitely biased. I can look at my, I have two eyes, I have a brain, I can go look myself, and I have. Look, they're trying to be accountable. Show me any other government agency who is more transparent than Doge. Show me one.

Matt (24:34.071)
The US Congress. The United States Congress.

Shawn (24:36.748)
How is what do they do?

Matt (24:38.67)
They have receipts for everything

Shawn (24:41.483)
Sorry? Yeah, yeah, okay.

Matt (24:42.971)
I know every agency has to be accountable right every time you get reimbursed you have to like submit receipts or whatever.

Shawn (24:49.637)
Show me one who has a constant feed of, we did this today and here's a link to the thing that we discovered and here's why we cut this much today and here's a link to our every day they're posting stuff. This is they're trying to be extremely transparent. And look, I'm sure there are canceled contracts or programs that I would disagree that they shouldn't shut down. But so far I'm thinking 80 % of it I look at and I go, okay, that makes good sense. And I can read you some of these things.

Matt (25:02.136)
Mm.

Shawn (25:19.129)
They just are common sense. There's nothing wrong with auditing and eliminating waste and fraud. That's well passed overdue and I'm glad that they're doing it.

Matt (25:27.106)
I'll tell you the thing that setting the Elon Musk stuff aside, because I do believe that Senate report that Elon Musk is profiting personally from this aside from that, cause that does bother me. The thing that bothers me most is this idea that like we should bring all the federal government employees back to work. And then most of our savings that we make is going to be cutting leases, cutting, like building leases that we have, right? Like

To me, that actually doesn't do anything to make government more efficient and doesn't do anything to make things better, to say we're gonna require you to come back to work and then when you come back to work, there's not gonna be a place for you to work. Or the one I specifically care about is like in Moab, Utah, there's a National Forest Service building that houses all kinds of like artifacts and things that there's a museum in the basement there, but also there's other things where they just store there and they cut the leases of these like National Forest Service buildings.

and say we're not gonna pay that lease anymore, we're gonna consolidate buildings and stuff like that. To me, like getting rid of leases to save money is not government efficiency. That just causes you more pain in the long run because you're losing, like giving up space is not a valuable thing. I appreciate the National Forest Service and the work they do. And I don't wanna see all of those buildings gone.

Shawn (26:45.199)
But that's how, isn't that how our government works? When someone is voted in, they get to do a lot of the things that are gonna make some of us unhappy and others of us happy. Like if Biden was in there, he wouldn't do that. Maybe he'd do things you like and don't like, but these guys have the power. We voted him in. Nobody's elected in government except for like 2 % of the people. The rest are all appointees and hirees. There's nothing wrong with that.

Matt (27:01.71)
But Elon Musk, Elon Musk was not elected to his position.

Matt (27:11.566)
appointees have to be confirmed by the Senate, right? And Elon Musk is not in a position where he would have to be confirmed by the Senate. So.

Shawn (27:19.715)
Why does that matter? What percentage of government is not confirmed by the Senate or voted in? What percentage do you think? 99?

Matt (27:27.022)
I can tell you there are two million federal government employees and then there are 1,300 positions in the federal government that the president is supposed to appoint and then the Senate is supposed to confirm. And so my problem is, okay, of those 1,300 positions where the president appoints and the Senate confirms, I'll just tell you rather than having you guess, of those 1,300 positions, Donald Trump has filled 50 of those positions and he's only appointed

Shawn (27:39.663)
There you go.

Matt (27:56.59)
400 people of those 1300 positions. So my problem is, it's an end around the constitution. If you say, I'm gonna give these people power that you need, that the constitution would say, you need to be appointed and then confirmed by the Senate, and I'm just gonna hire you as an employee and then tell you to do that stuff, to me, that's an end around the constitution. It's a way to say, right, you're gonna say, they were elected to do it, and I'm gonna say, they weren't elected to do it.

and they don't have the constitutional authority to do it. And that's their way of trying to get something done real fast. But we have these checks and balances that are supposed to protect individual liberties and protect people from taking too much power.

Shawn (28:32.473)
Okay, I definitely I definitely take your point. I see your point for sure. However, my point on the other side is, if if 1 % of all the people in our government who are making really serious decisions about our tax money about our tax spending about programs, if 1 % are actually elected or appointed, all most of these other decisions are made by these millions and millions of people, they're not appointed, and they're not and they're not elected. So

Matt (28:59.286)
No, but those 2 million federal employees don't have the authority to say, we're gonna cancel this lease. That power.

Shawn (29:01.647)
It doesn't bother me.

Shawn (29:09.03)
Sure, they do. A lot of those people have the ability to enter into contracts worth billions and billions of dollars and they do

Matt (29:15.182)
but it has to get approved by their higher ups. So the authority to actually cancel the contract or the authority to enter into an agreement or an arrangement, first of all, should come from Congress. They have to allocate that money, but then it's an appointed official who has the ultimate authority to make those decisions.

Shawn (29:35.349)
I mean, I'm looking through the receipts and it seems like a lot of these what are considered wasteful contracts. These don't seem to have been entered into at a congressional level. These contracts, for example, terminating a 401 wasteful contract with a ceiling value of $2 billion, including a treasury contract for a Kenya program coordinator, a Kenya, Uganda, maybe a Tanzania.

Matt (29:46.722)
Right.

Matt (29:58.508)
Right, the Treasury Department can't create that without an act of Congress allowing them to create that.

Shawn (30:03.053)
I don't know that I but there's a link here so I can go research that right I can go look and see

Matt (30:06.338)
Yeah, I can just tell you, Sean, that you can't create that without congressional authorization. First, Congress has to give you the money, but they also have to in-law authorize you to do that. And when they authorize that, maybe they're not saying specifically this Kenya program, but they're authorizing an agency to do that, and the head of that agency has to be confirmed by the Senate.

Shawn (30:27.887)
So if what you're saying is everything that because Musk is not appointed by Congress, he's doing these things illegally, that's what you're saying?

Matt (30:36.534)
Yeah, violation of the constitution, yeah. Well, this is my problem, right? They are in court about a lot of this stuff. like there are literally hundreds of legal cases about things that Trump has done in his first hundred days. Yeah.

Shawn (30:38.521)
Well, then why aren't they in court and why aren't they being overturned?

Shawn (30:45.805)
Okay.

Shawn (30:52.869)
Okay, good. I'm for that. it's if it's if they do something that's illegal and the court overturns it great. Let it be but I think there's nothing wrong with auditing the government and getting rid of waste and fraud and your quiet to your question if if Elon Musk is being altruistic in it great. Is he no probably not and neither are 100 % of the politicians out there. Maybe that's just a skeptics opinion but

Matt (31:02.68)
Sure. Sure.

Matt (31:18.4)
Yeah, Sean, you're so skeptical.

Shawn (31:22.309)
Listen, I saw Mitt Romney the other day. He came here and he did this amazing fireside. I'm not skeptical about Mitt or his wife Anne. They're great. They should be in government and then I would trust everything they do. So there you go. Triggered all you, you tongue. I don't know why. I don't know why you hate Mitt Romney, but he's a faithful. I don't know. I don't get it, but.

Matt (31:40.524)
Mark will tell you. Mark, why do you hate Mitt Romney?

Marc (31:42.985)
Two things. One, he's a carpet bagger. And number two, was when he was going for governor of Massachusetts, they asked, do you really think Joseph Smith talked to God? And he says, well, I don't know if anyone since Moses has really talked to God.

Matt (32:00.022)
Okay, so carpet bagger and sellout, are those the two ways to sell?

Shawn (32:04.623)
You know what I'm going call out misinformation. Mark is just pre-pre-pre-misinformation. news.

Matt (32:07.438)
Marc (32:07.699)
Fake news. Fake news. There is a video evidence of him saying, I don't know since Moses and he is a carpet bagger. He's a Massachusetts guy. Just randomly shows up to Utah. I'm going to be your Senator now. And he just buys a condo on South temple and says, there you go. That's my residence.

Matt (32:10.446)
You

Matt (32:27.374)
Well, it isn't Mitt Romney originally from Michigan, so he first went Michigan over to Massachusetts and then Utah. Yeah.

Marc (32:32.379)
Exactly.

Shawn (32:33.997)
Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt, just for clarity though, it doesn't hear this question just boil down to there really are oddly two divisions of way people view government. Some people view it as it should be small and it should be limited and there should be less central power and others view it as no, strong central power is better for our people in our country. Doesn't it just boil down to that? Like in the end, people who see what is happening with Doge, they're going to be upset no matter what because they're of that perspective of look, government should be strong and central.

And then the other side is going to love it. Isn't this bull down to that?

Matt (33:06.444)
I don't know. My perspective is every single president since Jimmy Carter has been arguing that they need to reduce government waste and fraud. And so every president creates some group like Doge to do it. And they're usually about as efficient as Doge. Like, like it's really hard to cut stuff, right? And so for me, it's just about

My problem with Doge is the stuff I articulated. I don't like the idea of bringing in unelected people who violate what I view as the constitution in order to get things done. Because I don't think that in the end you're getting anything better than what you got when Biden tried to cut government waste or when Trump did his first term or when Obama tried to. You're gonna get the same stuff every time. So I'd rather people just follow the law.

Marc (33:41.151)
Like.

Shawn (33:53.219)
I'll look at I'll look into that. Yeah, they certainly are messaging that differently and I don't want to be naive. So I'll look into that and just see see where I land on that. But that's interesting. All right.

Matt (34:02.616)
All right, I'll give you points for that, Sean. I'll give you points. Okay, Mark, we're gonna come after you. Hopefully you're all done with your cereal now. So I remember last time you were here, Mark, you talked about how Trump does not take a salary. So I looked up, I said, is Trump profiting at all from his service as president?

Shawn (34:05.561)
Thanks very much.

Marc (34:09.02)
I almost forgot I was here.

Shawn (34:11.845)
Hahaha

Marc (34:17.305)
Yeah.

Matt (34:30.798)
Trump may not be taking a salary, but he is getting richer from his service as president. Since taking office in January of 2025, his Trump meme coin cryptocurrency surged 70 % after he promised exclusive presidential access for its largest investors at his golf club, with tokens now valued at $2.5 billion. Meanwhile, his record-breaking $239 million inaugural fundraising drew unprecedented corporate

donations from people seeking influence with companies like Meta, Amazon, and Google each contributing a million dollars. Furthermore, he's issued executive orders establishing cryptocurrency regulations and reserves, while first lady Melania Trump launched her own digital currency, and his media company announced plans for ETFs with digital assets. So these post inauguration ventures represent concerning entanglements where presidential power is being directly converted into

personal financial gain through the explicit pricing of access to the president himself. So Mark, my question is, what would the founders think about this kind of behavior from President Trump?

Shawn (35:40.527)
You

Marc (35:41.344)
Well, I mean, I still don't even know what crypto is, so I don't think they'd understand what we're saying. But Alexander Hamilton would probably love it. But as far as the president himself doing this, it depends. Is he really putting a lot of time and effort or is it just Don Jr. said, Dad, let me do this thing real quick and we'll get your money back that the Democrats stole from.

Matt (35:46.894)
You

Marc (36:02.451)
over the last decade of ruining your life. If it's something like that, whatever.

Matt (36:08.45)
What about this thing where he says, everybody who's a big investor in my cryptocurrency gets to come and hang out at a special party with just me and my pals?

Marc (36:17.623)
that I do not like. I would save that for post-presidency.

Shawn (36:22.223)
Ha ha.

Matt (36:22.348)
What about the idea of raising $239 million for an inaugural fund? Like that money, we know who donated to it, but we don't know how that money is spent, because there really are no regulations on how you spend this $239 million for your inauguration. Like why would Meta and Amazon and Google give a million dollars to this inauguration fund?

Marc (36:38.242)
Bye!

Marc (36:44.541)
I think it was clearly to get out of his bad... what's the word I want to use here? Yes, get off the bad poo-poo list.

Matt (36:50.883)
Graces.

Matt (36:54.84)
So are you okay with that, with a president having a good poo-poo list and a bad poo-poo list?

Marc (37:00.449)
I know I have a list of good times that I've had a poo poo that was like hey, but text my friends. That was a good one I I do I I find one a little Questionable I've never said Donald Trump is perfect. He's our guy. I just think he's Compared to all the others. He's as close as we can get to a genuine good

Matt (37:24.694)
Okay, you're not, these kinds of things do disturb you to the extent that they're true.

Marc (37:31.189)
When I talk about them or think about them, I'm not wild, but I also don't think about them or talk about them.

Shawn (37:37.413)
Hey mark have you ever looked at the chart of the past like 20 presidents and their wealth as they before they entered office compared to their wealth during their their tenure

Matt (37:37.449)
Hahaha

Marc (37:47.945)
I've seen it. It's, it's something. It's very Pelosi.

Shawn (37:50.693)
You know who the top four, the largest increases of wealth are? They would be by far, and I'm talking like 30 times past the other guys, John F. Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama. Barack Obama increased I think 5,300 % his wealth during his presidency. So Matt, look, these people,

Marc (37:57.217)
Shawn (38:17.093)
work the way they did, got to the top, of course they're gonna benefit and they're gonna make money. Does it make me sick that politicians call themselves public servants and all the while they're empowering themselves and making themselves rich? Bothers the heck out of me. Bothers me when Congress does it, bothers me when presidents do it. But it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. Now, are you just as upset about Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and John F. Kennedy?

Matt (38:42.958)
To me, it matters how your wealth increases. Don't you think it matters? Like if you, if you say to this is a case that I just read a couple days ago that that Donald Trump said to some law firms, have to do legal work for me for free, or I'm going to take this legal, like I'm going to make an executive order that or I'm not going to let you have any government work. Right? So if you're using your office,

Shawn (38:46.757)
convenient.

Matt (39:11.918)
to coerce people or to compel people to give you money, then I think that that's corruption and that that's bad. I don't know how Kennedy or Clinton or Obama got their money, but if they did that, then of course I'm opposed to that. I think that's a terrible thing to do. But if I'm president of the United States and let's say a book publisher comes to me and they say, we're gonna give you $50 million to write a book.

Marc (39:28.639)
What?

Matt (39:38.648)
then I say, okay, that's not using my office, So this is another, like Amazon just signed a deal, a $40 million deal with Melania Trump to make an Amazon documentary about her life. I have no problem with that. I don't see that as corruption because she's not using her office as first lady to say, hey, you have to do this, right? But if it's like Mark said that,

give me a million dollars and you won't be on my bad list anymore and I won't take legal action against you or I won't put executive orders into place that harm your company. To me that's wrong.

Shawn (40:16.709)
Yeah, got it. Okay.

Marc (40:20.283)
I think we have a good example in the past though of what president should do. John Quincy Adams. Do know what he did after he was president? I'm sure you do, Brother Miles.

Matt (40:20.429)
Alright.

Matt (40:29.26)
Yeah. What did he do, Mark?

Marc (40:32.081)
He went and became a member of the House of Representatives and just served there peacefully.

Matt (40:37.42)
Yeah, or Taft became a Supreme Court justice.

Marc (40:40.849)
well let's not bring up taft he ruined everything with wilson coming in and the whole thing

Matt (40:45.454)
Or we could say Ronald Reagan who just got Alzheimer's and ate jelly beans until he died.

Shawn (40:51.333)
Hahaha

Marc (40:52.871)
That's the way it should be. Joe Biden did that a bit too early, but yeah.

Matt (40:55.374)
All right, well here's the big question. The big question for this week comes from David, our fearless co-host from time to time. He found this story about a guy named Lucia Scoville. Have you guys ever been to Nauvoo, to the Scoville Bankery in Nauvoo? No.

Shawn (41:11.93)
No, I haven't.

Marc (41:12.859)
Yes, but that I have no idea.

Matt (41:15.886)
Oh, okay. Well, this guy is somehow associated with the Scoville Bakery in Nauvoo. But when he was in New Orleans in 1849, he served as an agent for Mormon immigrants. During a time of financial hardship, he supported poor Mormon converts that were arriving in New Orleans. And he tells this story of receiving what he interpreted as divine guidance directing him to purchase a specific lottery ticket numbered 9998. And after this prompting,

he located a French bookstore owner who sold him a lottery ticket, despite Scoville noting that selling lottery tickets was against the law in Louisiana at that time. So the lottery ticket was for the Havana lottery, which the French merchant had been selling tickets for for 20 years. When Scoville checked the results on March 12th, he discovered his ticket had won a prize of $250, which he collected from the Bank of New Orleans.

Shawn (41:52.899)
Yeah.

Matt (42:11.168)
Scoville interpreted this lottery win as divine providence stating it confirmed that God's word can be relied on and that the Lord would open the way whereby means would come into my hands during times of need. So the question is this, it seems to me that brother Scoville broke the law of the land and the law of God while purchasing this lottery ticket, yet he sees this as an act of divine providence. So my question is, does God prompt us to do things that violate the laws of the land and or his commandments? And if so,

How can we be sure we're following God and not being deceived by Satan?

Shawn (42:45.007)
That's a fun topic. don't know if this is the direction you want to go with this, Matt, but good, good. Because this idea of discernment, right? The scriptures are pretty clear that the spirit of God is discernible. Like the scriptures are abundant with how do we discern? How do we know when something is from God and when something is from myself or from other influences? It's really

Matt (42:50.968)
Wherever you go is fine with me.

Shawn (43:13.283)
really talks about it a lot, right? It talks about how the things of God no man knoweth except but by the Spirit of God, right? In the D &C it talks about, when you're a missionary, your job is to do what? You're ordained to go out and preach the gospel by the Spirit of God. And then it goes on for like 10 verses that says, if it's not from God, it's some other way, it's some other spirit, and you're not supposed to do it that way. So over and over again throughout scripture, there are hints and clues and guidance about

How do we discern what is true and what is not true? I had a friend who came to me one day and was like, we're moving, we're moving all of a sudden, we're moving to Utah. We're like, oh, why are you moving? But he said, because I've been contemplating moving, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life. And then one day I was praying and I was driving along the freeway and there's a billboard. And the moment I end my prayer, I look up and there's a billboard that said Utah on it. And that way I knew. And so he moved to Utah and like six months later he moves back.

what are doing back? it didn't work out. And I thought, well, so how do you know that that billboard message was an answer to your prayer from God, or was it just coincidence and you interpreted it to be from God? Well, the answer is clear. It's super, super clear. Was the Holy Ghost involved in that revelation? I don't think God works, there's no evidence in scripture that says that God works by coincidence, or God works by prosperity proof, right? Like I want to...

Matt (44:12.472)
Mm.

Marc (44:31.943)
.

Matt (44:37.024)
Well, well, okay. After Judas dies in the New Testament and they have to choose a new apostle, how do they decide who's the new apostle? They drew, you can, what is it Mark, how did they decide?

Shawn (44:38.179)
Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead, please. Yeah, debate it.

Shawn (44:49.295)
the decide.

Marc (44:53.062)
I believe they drew lots, which kind of meant that they voted.

Matt (44:54.99)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that seems like chance, right Mark?

Marc (45:00.63)
No.

Shawn (45:02.277)
Like, if they did that without the involvement of the Holy Ghost, then I probably, yeah, it's by chance and shame on them. But we don't know if they were confirmed upon that Holy. I mean, the evidence that we show.

Matt (45:14.156)
Wait wait, Markle, tell us Mark, what does it mean?

Marc (45:17.238)
Well, contextually it would have been seen the way we see the current Council of the Twelve and the First Presidency operate. It's not necessarily President Nelson sits them all down and says, okay, we're putting caffeine in BYU's soda banks. yes, yes, well, yes sir. He might bring the idea, but they all have to agree together so they may have voted several times possibly like the conclave we're about to see in Rome with the Church of Satan, I mean with the Catholic Church.

Holy Apostolic Roman Catholic Church.

Matt (45:50.99)
So when they draw lots, that's them casting votes?

Marc (45:54.39)
Basically, but again, it's for them contextually and culturally it would have been more akin to getting revelation and being moved upon by the spirit.

Matt (46:05.143)
Okay, alright.

Shawn (46:05.765)
Plus, man, would say, preceding that scripture, there are pages and pages and pages of evidence of all of those apostles learning from the Savior how to receive truth through revelation. There's constant stories about how Peter learned to discern between, remember Christ asked him, who do they say that I am? Some say you're John the Baptist, some say you're this, well, who do you say I am? And Peter says, you're the son of God. And he says,

Matt (46:20.984)
Okay.

Shawn (46:33.689)
Blessed are our son Bar-Jona, for flesh and blood haven't revealed it you, but my Father in heaven." In other words, Peter knows that Christ is the Savior because of the Holy Ghost and Christ teaches us, see, he's learning how to spiritually discern.

Matt (46:47.798)
Yeah, but here's my question. So Sean, what I hear you saying is that we can be guided by the Holy Ghost to violate the laws of the land and commandments.

Shawn (46:58.949)
I'm saying if this guy in the story you if Scoville said I I was called of God to break these laws to enter this lottery to make money It's a simple question of well Did he or did he not receive revelation from God? Did he not receive the Spirit the Holy Ghost and that that's the answer if he claims he did that's none of my business I can believe him or not. That's none of my business But if he didn't and he's simply violating principle by saying well, I didn't feel anything or experience anything I didn't

Matt (47:21.453)
Yeah.

Shawn (47:28.377)
really involve the Holy Ghost, it just logically makes sense to me that I'm a good person trying to do the will of God and all of a sudden, you know, I've got this money from breaking the law, it's providence. That's not principle, there's no where that teaches that.

Marc (47:36.639)
You

Matt (47:39.16)
So.

So there was this time, Sean, where I was in the temple and while I was praying in the temple, I felt really strongly like I should buy a lottery ticket for one of these like mega millions. I think the jackpot was up to like a billion dollars. And I was like, that's super weird. I've never bought a lottery ticket in my life, but this is 100 % true. Yeah.

Shawn (47:58.829)
Is this a real story?

Marc (48:01.361)
And I know the ending because you still work at BYU-Idaho, right?

Shawn (48:05.603)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Matt (48:06.87)
That's right. I'm a billionaire and I work, take, I'm like Donald Trump. take no salary. Just kidding. That's not the end of the story. So after the session, my wife's like, so how was the session? I was like, great. I feel like I need to go buy a lottery ticket. So we went, we drove from the temple down to the Maverick and bought a lottery ticket and our like church clothes. It's the only time I ever bought a lottery ticket. And to this day, I don't know why I felt like I should buy a lottery ticket that day.

Shawn (48:28.835)
You

Matt (48:34.68)
But I did, because I felt like I should.

Shawn (48:38.125)
Listen, I've always loved about you Matt. I've known you for so many years and I always have loved that that you are Sensitive to the Holy Ghost you do your best to understand and discern. Okay, I'm experiencing something here you follow the guidance of the prophets in the scriptures and Look, I won't speak to it. I have no idea what you experienced or felt or why And it's none of my business if you claim it then then that's between you and your God

Marc (48:51.195)
In here.

Matt (49:06.541)
So the challenge, Sean, is this, because I have a close friend that was excommunicated for apostasy. And I was talking to this friend of mine and they were telling me, they said, the challenge is that everything I felt as a missionary, everything I've ever felt in church, everything I felt when I was saying my prayers, I had that exact same feeling guiding me to these other things that I did that now the church is telling me that that was apostasy.

Now the church is telling me that that wasn't revelation from God. And he's like, how am I supposed to know the difference when everything that I've ever known to be the Holy Ghost is suddenly not the Holy Ghost?

Shawn (49:47.369)
That's a great topic. I've had multiple friends tell me, oh Sean, I've left the church but I won't tell you why I'm leaving. Oh come on man, tell me. No, because if I tell you it's gonna ruin your faith. No, go ahead and tell me. And the exact same thing that you just said is what they said. Well, for the first time I prayed and said, God, the church is not true and I felt the Holy Ghost confirm that. But everything.

Matt (50:10.126)
But this wasn't a person saying the church is not true. This was just a person like trying to find guidance in their life. They were making decisions about what they should be doing and they felt like that God was telling them to do and think certain things. And they're like, I'm just following. And so that's like, if we say, well, sometimes God will persuade, will motivate you, well, sometimes God will tell you to violate the law or sometimes God will tell you to violate commandments.

Shawn (50:26.285)
I mean, the

Matt (50:36.834)
then it gets really hard because for me, that's where I say, okay, if God's telling me to like violate the law or break his commandments, that's where I start saying, wait a minute, maybe this isn't really from God. But if we acknowledge as a church that sometimes that does happen, then how do you, like, what is your guard rail that lets you know like you've gone too far?

Marc (50:50.422)
.

Shawn (50:56.703)
So that I mean, I admit that this so the scriptures are abundant with the Holy Ghost is discernible and it goes to great lengths to try and describe it Still small voice burning in the bosom a mighty rushing wind like like and these are inadequate words, right because they're mortal

Matt (51:12.302)
Shaking your bones, it says in the scriptures, causes you to fall down.

Shawn (51:15.009)
Right, these, right, Joseph Smith, when describing when he saw God the Father and heard the Father's voice in Jesus Christ, that wasn't what convinced him of the truth of it, it was what he'd said. He said, their brightness and glory defied all description. Well, why did it defy description? Because he's a mortal person trying to what he was experiencing in a spiritual way. And that's why all those words are inadequate to really express what they were. But the point of scripture is it's trying.

to use mortal words to express what it is to discern the Holy Ghost. I admit it's difficult, it's not easy, and that's why the scriptures say, diligently seek, constantly ask and knock to grow your ability to understand revelation and to feel the Spirit and recognize it and discern it. Remember when the MTC, who's your favorite teacher in MTC? Let's say it all at same time. No, hang on. Let's say it the same time. One, two, three, Sister Wrencher.

Matt (52:03.086)
Brother Bond.

Sister of Rentshaw.

Shawn (52:09.823)
One day as you were goofing off and not paying attention and I was like nerdily like just so into it. We were reading something and she stopped us mid sentence and she goes, wait, everyone close your eyes. I'm going to read that again in 3 Nephi 11. She read it again and then she said, do you guys feel that? She says, that's the Holy Ghost. And for the first time in my life, I went, my goodness, I do feel that. And I've felt that a thousand times before in my life. I just didn't recognize it or discern it.

She guided me and that changed my life. What? What do you have a weird face on? Okay. So I obviously we have to learn to discern it. And look, your friend who claims to have received the Holy Ghost to tell him to do things that would lead him to apostasy, that logically doesn't make any sense to me. I've never heard that happen before. I've never seen it happen before. Luckily, there's only one person who judges that person's situation and that's the Savior Jesus Christ. I don't have to judge that person's situation. I can just love them and say, I don't understand that.

Matt (52:41.868)
No, I don't have a weird face.

Shawn (53:07.449)
The Spirit has never led me to sin or to do something that would lead me apostate. So I don't understand it. But I think we have to diligently seek to discern the Holy Ghost and the scriptures are the way for us to do that.

Matt (53:19.128)
What do you say, Mark?

Marc (53:20.905)
Well, I've been listening and thinking because my first thought was, well, Nephi, I was constrained of the spirit to cut this drunk guy's head off. Well, then I thought back and said, well, no, that would be within the confines of the law of the land if they were not apostate and if they truly were reading the law because Laban had threatened their lives and stole them. So it was kind of right at this point to legally go ahead and kill him. it's still probably not hold up in court.

especially today.

Matt (53:52.27)
Well, then we have different laws today. Yeah. Well, what do you use as guardrails, Mark, to sort of be like, well, wait a minute, maybe this isn't God.

Marc (53:54.271)
Right. Unfortunate.

Marc (54:03.657)
I think orthodoxy is not a bad starting point. Know the doctrine of the church through and through. Read the handbook well enough. Know that buying lottery tickets and gambling and so on is not approved of the church. Start there and then let that be a highway to build your eye having a stroke. No, words are hard. Let that be the building blocks. then can you what Nephi says? Nephi simply says,

Shawn (54:26.265)
Ha ha ha ha.

Matt (54:29.612)
Yeah.

Marc (54:33.032)
Towards the end of his second book, he just says, now I can tell you guys are trying to figure out what to do once you've been baptized. And I'm kind of annoyed because I told you, you'd get the spirit and talk with the tongue of angels. So do that. And then he talks for a few seconds and he says, now I just, I can tell you guys are still not getting this and it's starting to tick me off. You will simply follow the spirit. That's what you do afterwards. And then he does it the third time. He's like, boy, I do not know if you, do you not know how to listen?

Follow the Spirit. That's it. And if you don't get it this time, it's because you do not ask, seek, knock, so you're not brought into the light. So I think that's all we can do is hold to the Orthodox views and practices of the Church as a starting point, and then just get the Spirit.

Matt (55:19.566)
Do you think that there's an element of like Lucia Scoville, he doesn't tell this story to say to people and so now I know that gambling is okay and now I know that you can like break the law and buy lottery tickets, right? He's just sharing a personal experience of something that was meaningful and happened to him. Do you think there is a difference of like maybe the Holy Ghost would inspire you to do something in a particular situation but maybe it's not something you go around telling everybody else. Now I know the truth of this doctrine.

Marc (55:48.721)
That's a good question and a good way to think about it. And I think without being in the exact situation, it's hard to have an answer to that. I know one missionary that was one of the missionaries that taught me and to help me into the church. But reconnected with him a few years later in Rexburg. And then we were talking and he tells me how the spirit told him to do some cocaine once, it would lead to a missionary opportunity. And then he saw my incredulous look and said,

If you pray, the spirit will let you know that what I've told you is true. I just like, I'm not even going to pray about that. isn't, it's not going to tell you to do cocaine yet, Jack wagon. Get out of my couch.

Shawn (56:26.966)
Yeah, quite a

Shawn (56:30.934)
Ha ha!

Matt (56:31.574)
All right. Yeah, that's a good story. I like that. Hey, you guys, this has been good discussion. I appreciate this.

Marc (56:37.638)
We agreed on some things even things eat booty judge

Matt (56:39.788)
Yeah.

Matt (56:44.59)
Hey, thanks for the conversation. Listener, thanks for joining us. If you have any comments, feel free to text us or send a message to us. We'll happily read it next episode. Talk to you again next week.