Matt (00:00.195)
defend defend it Sean tell him why tell him why you're right about college tell these college students why they're wrong

Shawn (00:02.653)
Okay. Well, the first, well, the first, I'm not telling them they're wrong. I'm asking, I'm digging deeper because they're, you know.

Melanie (00:07.206)
You know Sean if you make a good enough point I will drop out like I'm this close

Jacob (00:10.934)
We're used to this.

Shawn (00:14.111)
Okay, well the question is this then, this is your first real world, other than your mission, time to be away from home and start life and do some adulting and figure all that out. And of course, what better opportunity for an LDS person than to go to Provo BYU? It's like a magical experience. So is that why it's worth it? Or is it like, no, I am learning so much and my brain and my...

my I'm becoming such a better citizen of the United States. Like what, is it? Be honest.

Jacob (00:50.126)
say it's definitely, don't know, first of I don't know how magical of an experience it is, I think that I would obviously lean to the first one, right? It's the social aspect, it's the all-around just experience of being in this community, but I think that like generally speaking, it's a holistic education that I wouldn't get anywhere else for as cheap as I can get it, right? Like I'm taking 17 credits of science and business, which I think is as the world keeps evolving is like,

Matt (00:53.114)
You

Shawn (00:53.797)
hahahahah

Jacob (01:19.66)
the best two categories, I think, to learn about. And I think it's hard to learn it anywhere else at an efficient rate.

Shawn (01:23.316)
What?

Shawn (01:26.697)
Now, only what are you?

Melanie (01:28.614)
also think there's something about universities that create a unique community, right? Like part of the reason the community in Provo is so like, however you want to describe it, is because you have all of these people who are choosing to have a college education, right? And I'm like here in my major, and as I meet other people in my major, I'm meeting people who see the world like in the same way I do or in different ways than I do. But like, because we all chose to come to a university, we have this common identity and this way of seeing the world.

that's really hard to find other places.

Shawn (02:00.893)
Matt, I would say those two answers definitely support my side over your side. They're definitely saying not that the education side is the most valuable thing. They're saying that this is a social experience that builds community, builds character, right?

Matt (02:06.369)
Really? Really?

Melanie (02:19.225)
I'll time in with something else though. Like I was in a meeting on Friday and a professor was there and I was joking about dropping out as I do. That can be your takeaway from this podcast that I joke about dropping out a lot. And the professor was like, well, you're almost there so you may as well just get a degree because with a degree you'll be paid a lot more than you make without a degree. Even if I just go manage McDonald's, I'll make more with a physics degree managing a McDonald's than I'll make without a physics degree managing McDonald's.

Matt (02:19.749)
There are two things... Okay.

Matt (02:39.78)
Right. You will.

Shawn (02:40.559)
I don't know that he's right in that.

Shawn (02:47.387)
I don't know that it's true, actually.

Matt (02:47.611)
There are two things, Sean, two things you get from a college degree. One, social networks. You build connections with people that are gonna be the leaders of the future. And so that's an important component. Like you can get an MBA from any online MBA program, but if you get a Harvard MBA, then the other people who are doing the Harvard MBA with you are gonna be running the industries, the corporations of the future. And when they need somebody to be on their board of trustees, they're gonna say,

Sean, my pal from Harvard MBA school. So that's super valuable. And you can't get that in any other way. The other thing you get is feedback from experts. So I can turn on YouTube and I can consume information, but I'm not going to get any feedback about the things that I create any sort of guidance as to like, is what I'm doing actually contributing something new? Am I, am I creating something that's valuable or am I just regurgitating garbage? And you get feedback from people who know the field to do in college.

That's why it's worth it.

Shawn (03:45.215)
I mean, I would say as valuable as those things are, you're putting way too much weight in saying without those, you can't have the same results. You can, you can build community in different ways. Many, people I know have done that. You can build community in the workplace. You could build networking in the workplace. man, know most of the people.

Matt (04:04.355)
Of course you can network in the workplace. Of course I have friends for my banking days, but I'm trapped in banking. I can't get outside of banking. If my whole network is banking, then I'm stuck there and I can't do other things. I want a broader network.

Shawn (04:14.488)
Yeah, but the way you talked about your banking days, no one's stuck in the banking world.

Jacob (04:18.606)
You

Melanie (04:19.907)
you

Matt (04:21.083)
No, no, like, well, like my friends. Oh, go ahead, Jacob.

Jacob (04:21.368)
I think if I were to try and tie these together, think that college provides a very smooth, albeit expensive outlet for a lot of things that I think if you tried to do on your own, you could do such as build a networking community and find people like you and find people you want to work with. Or if you're starting your own business, you just have to put in the grit and the long hours to connect and reach out. that's probably a lot more digitally and social media and Zoom and don't know, maybe podcasts.

But I think that college allows for you to do it physically in place and we're all young and you can see each other in 30 years and connect that way. I just think besides BYU, right? Cause it's kind of an Easter egg of a, of a setup, but I think that it provides that smooth outlet to grow and connect.

Shawn (05:06.429)
Matt and would never, and Jacob, I would never say that college isn't valuable or worth it. just, my point Matt is the mentality that it is absolutely necessary and it is the greatest thing that will ever happen to you and it is the only way. That's the mentality that prevails that is wrong.

Matt (05:25.027)
All right. Well, I would push back on that Sean and say, this is what you say about missionary work, right? Missionary works the only way missionary works. So valuable missionary work. So magical. can get to those same outcomes without being a missionary.

Melanie (05:38.167)
See, Sean, the problem is you're trying to tell my dad that he has an intellectual superiority complex. And while it may be true, he doesn't want to believe it.

Matt (05:43.547)
I'm just saying like, Sean, where did Russell Nelson serve his mission? Where did Henry B. Eyring serve his mission? We'll go through the first presidency. Where did they serve their missions? None of them served missions. So you can become president of the church in the first presidency without serving a mission. It's just that missionary work is just such a great way to get to those outcomes, right?

Shawn (05:44.201)
Hmm.

Ha

Shawn (05:58.303)
Yeah.

Shawn (06:03.241)
Sure.

Shawn (06:08.447)
that's my. Yeah, you make, you're making my point, Matt. It's not necessary, but it is good. It's a good path. It is. Unless people are so convinced that I don't know what I'm to do in life, but the natural thing to go into is college and they start accruing debt. And by the end of their degree that they may or may not use, they've got all this debt because they've been sold a bill of goods that this is my only path. That's a problem.

Jacob (06:09.134)
Come with a lot of debt though. Just kidding.

Matt (06:10.914)
okay.

Matt (06:37.037)
I agree that's a problem. also agree it's a problem if somebody thinks that an online degree will get them the same thing that an in-person degree will get them. So my pushback is like people say online is a less expensive better way to do it and I just say you get what you pay for a lot of times. BYU is inexpensive because it's subsidized heavily by the church. A BYU education is very very expensive but like 80 % of the cost is paid for by tithing payers or by donors to the university for which we're all very grateful.

Jacob (06:38.402)
That is from.

Shawn (06:43.615)
dang, interesting.

Melanie (07:06.766)
Amen.

Matt (07:07.085)
But if you're trying to find a not subsidized cheap path to university degree, you're going to get garbage.

Shawn (07:14.311)
Interesting. Yeah, that's a good point. Like I'm pushing my kids to college and BYU for the social experiencing and the networking experiences. You're right. I don't see the value in an online experience at all.

Jacob (07:27.724)
And it's funny because I feel like I take half of my classes, not online, but like half of them are like I go to lecture and I can see the slides on my computer and the way they present the info is just to follow the slides. And so sometimes I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if this format is super helpful for my time per se. Like I could skip class and I get the exact same amount of out of it.

Shawn (07:38.878)
Wow.

Shawn (07:45.417)
But Jacob, but Jacob, you not sitting sandwiched between two pretty cute LDS girls at the same time that you're just looking at your screen?

Jacob (07:51.137)
You

Matt (07:52.187)
You

Jacob (07:54.068)
Not in, this is true, like there's those options, right? Not in nutrition, I'll have you know.

Shawn (08:00.947)
Hahaha

Melanie (08:02.179)
Wait, wait, you're saying the nutrition girls aren't cute?

Shawn (08:04.607)
Jacob (08:05.71)
They're just 18, Melanie. Respect. I don't know if you can keep that apart, but I'm just kidding. Just kidding. But it's a, it's a, you like, have to take it from a major, but I'm taking it kind of late in the lineup. But I just, think also if you wanted to dig a little deeper, I think it would be how info is presented, right? If you're going to go to Harvard or let's say maybe somewhere, maybe Harvard is an exception, but somewhere BYU tier that is more expensive.

Melanie (08:07.653)
okay.

Jacob (08:33.176)
But I think that if they go to class and it's just a presentation with the slides that you already have on your computer, I think that also could cause some friction. And I'm paying for an education that it feels like I could do, maybe not on my own, but it feels like I just bought a giant textbook that's like different classes, but no one's actually gonna teach me. Now granted, I can go ask my teacher questions after class, and that's where the college part of it is helpful. But I think sometimes I have often thought like,

three of my classes I could skip and I could get the same like maybe 90 % I would say of the same info. So I think it's kind of interesting on that line on that front. But then I go to O chem and it's like, I don't understand anything until you maybe step me through it, right? Like I need to know organic chemistry and I there's no other way I could learn it.

Matt (09:03.259)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (09:05.609)
Yeah, interesting. Really interesting.

Melanie (09:11.049)
Shawn (09:15.571)
I watched a YouTube video yesterday and okay, and I just got the whole thing.

Jacob (09:19.566)
Chad's prep. If anybody... Chad's prep's great. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah.

Matt (09:21.787)
Tell us a little bit about the Krebs cycle, Sean. Tell us a little bit about that. We'd love to hear what you heard on YouTube about the Krebs cycle. All right, go ahead.

Melanie (09:29.955)
No, think like, or sorry, I just wanna like put in a quick plug for like in-person college, because I also have the experience where I go to lecture and I get nothing. And like the majority of my friends are in the exact same boat. But these professors that we work with, we go to lecture, we get nothing from them in lecture, but then we like meet with them outside of class, or we work in their research groups, or we TA for them. And we have these opportunities to network with geniuses. And so like,

Matt (09:57.232)
Mm-hmm.

Melanie (09:58.214)
If I was just looking at the lecture notes and learning from a slide online, I wouldn't have the opportunity to get to know these people who have undergrads from Princeton, who have these connections, who are working with NASA. so like, there's more to college than just the lecture, I think.

Matt (10:13.613)
I agree. Okay, another listener wrote in and said, Hey guys, I love the show. People talk about redundancy in government like it's wasteful, but it's actually about accountability and transparency. Our manuals are exhaustive and often publicly available. Our elected bosses are erratic and they might call our commissioner in to testify about what we did two years ago and they'll want to see receipts. We have annual mandatory trainings that often feel tedious and repetitive, but that's how things like ethics and protecting against disclosure are drilled into us.

Jacob (10:13.934)
That's a good point.

Matt (10:43.321)
I wonder if these core values of government will survive Doge. Sean, you're a big Doge fan, aren't you worried that Doge is going to get rid of all the good stuff in government?

Shawn (10:53.023)
The main thing that Doge is attacking Matt is federal government, like top-down federal government. this listener is talking about local.

Matt (10:56.827)
Sure, person is a federal government? No, this is federal government employee.

Shawn (11:03.623)
Okay. We're both talking out of our back of our heads because we don't know or do we know? Do you know that that's a federal, it's a definitely a federal government employee. I do think that as I talk to local government, it feels different to me and there's still waste. There's still bureaucracy, but I don't know. Maybe there's a different mentality between the big federal government and the local government. But if this person is federal, then maybe I'm wrong.

Matt (11:08.099)
No, we know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (11:29.573)
But wouldn't you say it's true Sean that private industry has the luxury of not having to worry about equality, equity, delivering services in a manner that are consistent with like the values of the elected officials and all that stuff. You get to just produce a product and please your customer and you don't have to worry about keeping society the way that it ought to be. And federal employees don't have that luxury. And so it might be more expensive.

to provide public services because you're trying to reach people or help people that are not very accessible and you're trying to do it in a way that doesn't disadvantage any marginalized groups in society. And a small business owner doesn't have to worry about that kind of thing.

Shawn (12:15.261)
I mean, I'll maintain that the best way to rise every level of society from the poor to the unfortunate to the wealthy is a free market. It's not government solution. A free market is going to answer the needs of what people need and want. And if it's valuable enough that I can offer them something that, you know, like products for the blind, there are apps out there, there are products out there. Government doesn't solve that, but I can, I can have my friend who's, who's blind.

use a phone because of a product that a company created. There was value there and they're happy to pay for that. If they do a bad job, yeah, there's a huge risk. They will go out of business and they will lose their money and their investment.

Matt (12:58.021)
But government doesn't have to, government's not tasked with producing something of value. They're tasked with implementing laws that elected officials put out there, right? So, well, I don't think it would be useful if it was louder than what I said.

Shawn (13:06.732)
Can you say that again really loud, Matt?

Melanie (13:09.123)
you

Jacob (13:11.214)
Thanks

Shawn (13:12.595)
I think it would be really useful for the whole world to hear you say, the government creates no value. Go ahead and say that again.

Melanie (13:18.361)
Hey, hey, he's not saying it doesn't... Yeah, just... There's a difference between it not being their obligation and it not being a side effect of what they do.

Matt (13:18.597)
That's... I said that's not their task. Go ahead, Melanie.

Shawn (13:21.983)
Ha

Matt (13:29.593)
Yeah, an elected, an elected official says everybody should have access to everything that happens in our meetings. There should be public notes and public, like everything that your government does should be transparent and available to everybody, right? That's a mandate that a government has to do because somebody passed that law. And so you have to figure out what's the most efficient way to do that. So

Shawn (13:30.153)
Explain that difference. Okay, go ahead and explain.

Melanie (13:31.747)
I'm

Shawn (13:53.951)
So I think it's smart for someone to audit that and go, that bureaucratic process of this mandatory law required meeting and the millions of notes and shit, like all of that bureaucracy probably is a waste of time in many cases. And so I don't mind an audit like Doge coming through and saying, wow, all of the mandatory laws that are being kept are absolutely useless or antiquated, so let's destroy them. That's okay.

Matt (14:21.517)
I love that you call Doge an audit when Elon Musk is out there with a chainsaw bragging about how he's like getting rid of government as if that's some kind of an audit.

Shawn (14:29.375)
It's an audit. That's the whole point. They're looking at waste and they're going to audit it. And if it's wasteful, they cut it.

Matt (14:35.707)
Do you know who they f-

Melanie (14:37.273)
See, I just think like my thoughts on Doge are a government is supposed to be for the good of the people, right? Like it's a social contract. We all want this government to like keep us safe and to protect us, right? And maybe our government isn't doing it in the most efficient way possible, but I'd rather that we audit it and check it out in a way that will preserve the wellbeing of the people the government is supposed to protect. Like I'm down to pay a couple dollars more for a little bit longer if it means that

Shawn (14:43.614)
Yeah.

Matt (15:01.915)
Hmm.

Melanie (15:06.477)
My friends who are graduating are guaranteed jobs after they graduate. like, bro, I am seeing physics majors care about politics. Exactly. My friends who are gonna have diplomas. yeah, yeah. I can't guarantee I'll answer well, but I'll try.

Jacob (15:14.102)
friends that are not me but my friends that will graduate get jobs.

Matt (15:17.165)
Yeah.

Shawn (15:21.439)
Okay. So can I ask you a question and Melanie about that? Okay. You always answer well. So my son is on a mission and when he gets back and is going to go to BYU, we engaged in, I don't know if I should admit this, Matt, but we engaged in assisting him in filling out some content to qualify for some grants and some scholarships. And so we worked hard, worked hard and we submitted and just three days ago we get a letter from BYU that says,

Matt (15:26.555)
if

Matt (15:42.957)
Yeah, that's fine.

Shawn (15:51.953)
him all of the grant stuff is on hold because we have no clue what's going to happen with the Department of Education because of the pauses and what Doge is doing. So we're sorry, but we can't answer you about any sort of financial assistance. Melanie, did my government fail to protect me there was if I am taking advantage. no, hang on now. If I'm taking advantage of

Matt (16:05.712)
Mm-hmm.

Melanie (16:12.941)
Yes!

Shawn (16:18.527)
Again, if you look at the intent of government, it's not to provide me with scholarships for school. it's not right. Like the purpose of government is to protect our rights and our freedoms. It's to make sure we have a just system.

Matt (16:25.657)
Of course it is!

Melanie (16:31.621)
See, here's my counter story. I was talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago and my friend was like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to pay rent this month because my FAFSA money isn't coming through. And I would rather say I want my friend to be guaranteed housing because of their FAFSA money. Like it's okay if people are playing the system if it means that the people who aren't playing the system get what they need. And I think, in the process of time, we can find a way to weed out the people who are playing the system.

but I don't think it should come at the cost of the people who aren't.

Matt (17:05.179)
We have a system, Sean, called a separation of powers, right? Where Congress passed a law and allocated money to provide financial aid for students who need financial aid to go to college. So to say that it's an audit when somebody comes in and cuts off that financial aid that was passed by law, that's not an audit. That's a violation of federal law.

Shawn (17:26.687)
It's not a law that says that you must, the Department of Education must fund, and you know, no, it's a program that, no, we were looking into it. Yeah, we looked into it because we're like, okay, do we have a right to this money where we could respond to BYU and say, we have a legal right to this money and you can't deny it? No, we don't, we don't have a legal right.

Matt (17:31.695)
Yes, it is a law. Yeah.

Melanie (17:37.967)
Yeah.

Matt (17:47.163)
the program was created by law. So yes, there is a law that created the program and set the parameters and all of that stuff. And.

Shawn (17:51.795)
Yeah, but-

Shawn (17:56.243)
So you think that we could take them to court and we could win that money?

Matt (17:59.417)
Not only, yeah, and lots of people are doing that right now. With virtually everything Doach has done so far, you can read the news almost every day and see things where judges have intervened. And it said, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't do that. And by the way, Sean, if it really wasn't audit, do you know who the first people to get fired were when the Trump administration came in? The inspectors general. There are inspectors general over every agency of government whose job is to audit government and make sure that there's no waste and corruption.

Shawn (18:03.327)
You

Shawn (18:11.807)
That's overstated. That's overstated, Matt.

Matt (18:27.865)
And the first thing they did was fire all of those people. So if it really is an audit, why do you fire the people whose job it is to do those audits? Why wouldn't you just say to them, hey, we have some new guidelines of how you would like you to conduct the audit. You don't fire the auditors if your purpose is to audit things.

Shawn (18:47.111)
I think the swamp is deep Matt and there's clear clear obvious and maybe there's clear fraud and waste and so if they're not doing a good job, yeah, you got to get rid of them first.

Matt (18:49.211)
You

Melanie (18:49.249)
Maybe the auditors weren't doing a good enough job.

Matt (18:58.191)
Well, this would be a great segue into the next topic because there's no longer an inspector general to audit these programs in the treasury and commerce department. President Trump, before he was elected president in his second term, started a company called DJT and it owns Truth Social and it does not make very much money. In fact, they have debts or their annual revenue is in the negative hundreds of millions every year.

But recently they announced that they're going to expand in the cryptocurrency sector via a newly established TruthFi brand. It is developing ETFs that utilize crypto.com's infrastructure and feature cryptocurrency portfolio with Bitcoin and Kronos. So Donald Trump's company is now going to be a place, a platform where you can purchase cryptocurrency. Meanwhile, President Trump as president signed an executive order creating a strategic Bitcoin reserve.

using forfeited treasury Bitcoin held as long-term assets and directing the treasury and commerce departments to seek cost-free ways to add more cryptocurrency to the reserves. My question is, this appears to me to be a conflict of interest. Is it corruption? Sean, would we call this corruption?

Shawn (20:17.715)
I think Jacob and Millie, you guys should pipe in here because I'm going to come at Matt pretty hard with this one.

Matt (20:22.83)
You

Jacob (20:23.31)
So I think if you take the standalone division that President Trump created, it sounds in principle to be a good idea. I think if you move forward, right, that's kind of the way the money's working. And Bitcoin's kind of, it seems untouchable. Like it hasn't been, it's one of the most safe ones, blah, blah, blah. And it seems like the only way they gain more crypto is from, seems like forfeited and like donated Bitcoin.

So that feels like a safe place. And I think that's maybe not a horrible idea to have a chunk of the pie, so to speak, in that section. I can't really speak to the private business, but how are those related again, Matt? You can go to his company and buy?

Matt (21:05.733)
So if you want to buy Bitcoin, you have to find a marketplace to purchase Bitcoin. And now Trump's company is going to be one of these marketplaces where you could purchase cryptocurrency, right? So it's not hard to envision the president directing the treasury department to purchase Bitcoin through his own platform, in which case his company is going to get all of the fees associated with each transaction when Bitcoin is purchased.

Jacob (21:10.988)
Mm-hmm.

Jacob (21:27.191)
Mmm.

Jacob (21:35.362)
Yeah, that does feel like you hope like that feels like there could be some overstepping and like breach of professional to private. But yeah, I would abide by the fact that I think the concept seems like it's already created the government group that holds those bitcoins in reserve. I think that's a good idea. I don't know about hopefully the broker is himself in that in that acquiring a Bitcoin.

Melanie (21:56.165)
.

Matt (21:56.347)
You

Matt (22:00.037)
What do say, Melanie?

Melanie (22:01.549)
I'm not gonna lie, I see the word Bitcoin and my eyes glaze over.

Matt (22:05.69)
Hahaha

Shawn (22:05.811)
Matt (22:08.763)
Did you know my sister is going on a cruise, a 14 day cruise, financed completely by a little bit of Bitcoin she sold. She bought Bitcoin when it was cheap and she's just held onto it for a long time and now she just sells a little bit of it when she wants to fund big vacations. Yeah.

Shawn (22:24.105)
That's awesome.

Jacob (22:25.356)
I know people who've quit their jobs and life pretty much retired at 40 because they had enough Bitcoin to sell it all for millions. So it's like, yeah.

Shawn (22:31.56)
You

Matt (22:33.747)
Mm-hmm Yeah, I purchased It's called bear instead. Yeah, I was looking at Bitcoin Early early on and it was I was like, wait a minute. It's $15 for one Bitcoin. That's ridiculous I'll wait till it's a dollar for a Bitcoin and then I'll buy but now it's like forty thousand dollars for one Bitcoin So that was a bad and but I chose the wrong investment in that case All right, Sean

Melanie (22:39.717)
you

Shawn (22:56.435)
Maybe that maybe that banker education didn't help you out so much,

Jacob (23:00.012)
Hahaha

Matt (23:00.205)
I didn't, I know. If only I had gone to school and not tried to learn through hard knocks.

Shawn (23:05.722)
Jacob (23:05.985)
Thank

Melanie (23:06.393)
You're telling me that the bank you worked at in the 90s wasn't ahead of the Bitcoin curve.

Matt (23:10.715)
Alright Sean, Mr. I hate corruption in government, why don't you tell me why this isn't corruption?

Jacob (23:11.261)
Thank

Shawn (23:16.319)
Sure. Okay. Let's, okay. Question one, Matt, would you say that in, in, in the basis of your question goes to the heart of what would you say that Donald Trump now would have an insider advantage when it comes to, you would, you would. And the idea that this politician would have an insider advantage that could, could potentially attract, like if there, if this little carrot is dangled now and good smart people are like,

Matt (23:29.807)
Yes. Yes, of course.

Shawn (23:46.025)
Well, if I can have an insider advantage and maybe I'll go into politics. Is that a good thing or a thing, man? Based on what you've what?

Matt (23:52.331)
I have no problem with that. I have no problem with somebody being in politics and having inside information. That's fine. That's not ill. It's not it's not illegal to know things other people don't know. It's illegal to use that information before everyone else can use that information.

Shawn (23:59.495)
Insider advantages, right?

Shawn (24:10.527)
So did you know that 33 out of 100 congressional members last year beat the stock market by 300 % or something like that?

Matt (24:19.716)
Wait!

Wait, so you're going to tell me that they committed, that they were corrupt and so this isn't corrupt?

Shawn (24:26.961)
No, I'm going to say, I'm definitely not defending this. My answer is it's absolutely stupid and corrupt, but you got to be consistent. You can't defend the fact that Nancy Pelosi beat the stock market by 120 had 122 % return. Whereas the average return is about 15%. But before you're saying no, no politicians need incentive to profit. That way good people are like talented people are incentivized to be in politics.

But you can't play it both ways just because your favorite politicians are doing it and your non-favorite ones aren't. You have to be consistent across the board. If it's corruption, it's corruption. If insider advantages are bad, then do it across the board.

Matt (25:08.345)
Wouldn't you say this is different than an insider advantage? Wouldn't you say that the person who is the head of the executive branch that can tell the treasury department which platform to use to purchase cryptocurrencies, that that's not an insider advantage, that's a person using their government position to direct the government to use its resources to profit your own private corporation. That's the definition of corruption. That's not insider trading.

Shawn (25:11.282)
Not at all.

Shawn (25:31.231)
That's horrible. that's awful. That's awful. I'm not saying that's not awful, but the same Congress, the 33 out of a hundred congressional members who do pretty much the same thing. They're using their insider advantage position and knowledge in order to profit gross amounts of money. It's the same thing. It's mad. It's the same intention. It's the same.

Melanie (25:52.806)
have a question. So my eyes did glaze over. I'm just trying to clarify what's going on. But I think like what you're talking about, Sean, with the insider trading, it's like if someone was like, I know that the bird flu is coming. So I'm going to buy a crap ton of eggs before all the chickens die and the eggs get really expensive. Right? And I feel like what

Shawn (26:12.329)
Or I know that Mike, know that, or like Nancy Pelosi, I know that Microsoft is about to be written up on a ton of lawsuits, go invest two weeks before it happens. And she made millions and millions off of that, that type of thing. Yeah.

Melanie (26:25.441)
Yeah. And I feel like what Trump's doing, I don't know if this is accurate, but it's like Trump is giving the chickens bird flu so his eggs become more valuable. Is this accurate?

Matt (26:34.053)
what a great analogy. Yes. That's right.

Shawn (26:35.359)
So he's smarter. What you're saying is he's smarter in his corruption than the congressional members. So it should be worse.

Matt (26:42.275)
He's not smarter. He's not smarter. It is worse. It is worse to create the bird flu to create an egg shortage.

Melanie (26:48.739)
I'm not making a point, I'm just making sure my bird flu analogy was solid.

Shawn (26:53.587)
Would you, it's a great analogy, Melanie. Would you def.

Matt (26:53.829)
Here's another interest. Do you know which automaker is going to be least affected by the tariffs that Trump's putting into place on auto manufacturers? Just try to guess which one will be least affected? Tesla. Tesla. Tesla. Yeah, Ford's gonna be affected. GM's gonna be affected. All of the US automakers are gonna have to raise the prices on new cars by two to $4,000. Do you know who won't have to? Tesla.

Jacob (27:04.308)
least affected for f- ooo ooo

Shawn (27:16.895)
Matt, I agree with you, that's awful and it's corruption. But my issue is that in the past, you have no problem with insider trading in Congress benefiting from that. I just am saying, let's be consistent. I think both are awful. Both should be rooted out of government. King Mosiah, we do?

Matt (27:32.333)
Okay

Matt (27:36.183)
Okay, okay, so we agree.

We agree that this is corruption.

Shawn (27:42.047)
Do you? Yeah, but I'm begging you to. Yes, we do agree. Absolutely. But I'm begging you to be consistent with your accusations.

Jacob (27:44.014)
you

Matt (27:48.333)
I don't know the Nancy Pelosi story. I don't know the details of the story. I have no problem with a member of Congress owning stock and making money on that stock. I have no way of knowing that.

Shawn (27:53.609)
maybe.

Shawn (27:57.695)
102, Matt, how much did you? Okay, then we'll do a separate question in a separate episode and I'll ask you those questions. But how about this? How about this, Jacob, what do you think of, what do you think? Is it better to have these? Because what I've learned from Matt in the past is we need, in order to attract the right kinds of politicians, you need those politicians to be incentivized by profiting and making money. But what about King Mosiah? What about King Mosiah who says, what'd he say in 212?

Matt (28:04.155)
Yeah, we can do it diff- Right. I-

Shawn (28:26.803)
So I you, I've been suffered some of my days in your service, even to this time, and have not sought gold nor silver nor any manner of riches. I've labored with my own hands that I might serve you. Is that not really truly a public servant? Whereas I think Matt, you preach a lot that public servants like Nancy Pelosi or like Donald Trump are actually public servants, no? I'm trying to bring it.

Matt (28:48.867)
You create these weird scenarios. Like, why do I have to defend Nancy Pelosi? I get to defend-

Jacob (28:50.19)
you

Melanie (28:51.269)
Let Jacob answer the question

Jacob (28:53.676)
I'm going to assist Sean in making Matt the bad guy here. think, I think, I'm going to back, just kidding. I think obviously that in principle, it would be the public servants serve for the good of serving. And then they're benefited by making the world a better place. and there's probably, like I look at the church, right? It's like the apostles and the president, like sure, there's a stipend, but like, or stipend, but they, they don't make that much money. They just need enough to live.

Matt (29:03.184)
Yeah.

Jacob (29:20.258)
And I think that they obviously benefit the most from serving. And I think obviously the church to the government of the United States is a little bit of a different story. But I think that the ability to serve should be the greatest reward that you get. And obviously service is a little bit of a two-edged sword, whereas you give, you don't get a lot back. And I think if you give too much, it could be detrimental to your personal health or life. And I think that maybe that's where the compensation is attractive. It is a little tough when...

the rich get richer and the poor maybe get poorer in that aspect where people who are in above places kind of make seems like makes more money or at least have more info and more power to wheel and deal. But I do think that the other than the say the day in accounting, it's like the people that you invest in are the best intangible asset you'll ever have. And so I think as we keep the people up that are good at their jobs and can help keep the world or I guess our country spinning.

I think that as long as they, it's just, it's tough to like, I think it was the corruption hopefully minimizes with the people that we, we like, and we keep up there, stay the same. I think that would be what I would, yeah.

Shawn (30:26.855)
So let me ask you this, Jacob. So Republican Congressman Mark Green, a Republican, right? From Tennessee. He made 122 % return on his investments in guess what sector? The energy sector. You know, we'll guess what kind of committees he was on. So are you saying that it...

Matt (30:47.429)
But Sean, that's your that's not causality. Sean, I'm what I'm saying is, let's take like Joe Blow citizen who decides to go to every single committee meeting that Mark Green Republican goes to. He might actually get some information by attending all of these public meetings. That's the exact same as Mark Green got. And so we don't know that it's insider trading, it's possible that all that was publicly available information, but people don't spend the time monitoring the

the energy sector the way that a member of Congress does. That's what I'm saying. My sister made a bunch of cash on Bitcoin, right? It doesn't mean she had insider trading. It just means she made a different choice than I made with the same information that was out there for everybody to consume.

Shawn (31:21.491)
That is your answer.

Shawn (31:33.311)
So you're saying that every citizen has the same kind of opportunities that a member of Congress has who's on the... what's an optimist? Okay. That's an opti...

Jacob (31:33.771)
I think so.

Matt (31:39.259)
No, I'm saying it's, I'm saying it's possible that they do. So just because they made money, I'm just saying you're assuming ill intent. And I'm and I'm not assuming ill intent with Trump in this case, I'm just showing you what he did. That's all I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying, is this eruption based on this? All right, we got

Shawn (31:58.471)
You're not assuming, you what the Trump? I wanna hear you say that. I wanna hear you say that. I wanna hear you say, okay, on the face this looks corrupt what Trump is doing, but I think he's a good guy and a moral man and I won't assume that he's gonna do anything bad. okay.

Matt (32:11.013)
Well, no, no, I won't say that. I'm just saying I'm in this particular case. Okay. Let's move on to the next topic. So, I dunno, maybe four or five years ago, I wanted to know my ancestry DNA stuff. And so I gave my data to, and my, did the cheek swab and then they collected my DNA and then they gave me all my DNA information and I applied it, uploaded it to another database where they send me every week. They send me like genetic stuff about me based on studies that have been done. Well,

Shawn (32:16.959)
Hahaha

Matt (32:41.111)
The most famous of these was 23andMe, but now they're going bankrupt. And so in bankruptcy, the most valuable asset that 23andMe has is this database full of genetic information from people who gave them their DNA in exchange for information about health or ancestry or things like that. it raises questions. so now that's the most valuable asset that could go up for auction.

in the bankruptcy proceedings and anybody could purchase that database of all this genetic information. So it raises concerns about this data being auctioned off to the highest bidder. So my question is, do companies have a moral obligation to delete genetic information when they go out of business? Is it ethical to sell a database of genetic information as an asset or is that something that should be off limits?

Shawn (33:34.375)
Easy answer. Easy answer. It depends 100 % on whether or not, Matt, you gave them consent to take your data and sell it. So when you signed up with that, and I'm sure most of us do not read all the fine print and all the things we agreed to, but in there, if there's a line that says, agree that if you sell the company, you can sell my data, then it's absolutely 100 % ethical and moral because you entered into a free exchange and gave them the ability to do it.

Matt (33:36.164)
Okay.

Matt (33:45.795)
Okay, but-

Matt (34:03.445)
But there's some things we say you can't sell, right? If you have, if you're giving birth and you have this baby, right, that dies at birth or something like that, you can't take that fetus or that embryo or those stem cells. You can't just take that and sell that to whoever you want to sell it to. We have laws regulating that because we say you can't harvest human organs. You can't sell human organs. There's laws regulating something. So there's some things that we say, this is an important enough class of stuff that should not be able to be sold. And I wonder,

Shawn (34:32.255)
So your question is, your question is like, okay, for 23andMe reveals your ancestry down your paternal lines, your maternal lines. Your question is, should it be illegal to resell that information? That's your question? I don't see why. What do you think, Jacobin, though?

Matt (34:43.727)
Yeah, yeah. Should have been...

Jacob (34:50.134)
As I was thinking about this, it's interesting, right? Like I think I trust 23, if I were to do it, haven't been in it, but I think I trust 23 and me, seems like to contain it, but I don't know as they continue to sell it and my genetic info seems to just get traded company to company if it needs to be sold as an asset. I think my trust would go down and I think I would be maybe more suspicious as it changed hands.

I, the analogy I was thinking about as I was prepping for this was, was Google, right? Like they tell you they're very good at privacy. At least they make it seem like we've got you covered. We tell you all the time if like hacks are come in or just like security breaches, or we let you know every time when you're agreeing to something that we're going to share your info with this company and you click continue. And I do this every day. feels like as a college student. But I think that 23andMe maybe could have been a little bit better upfront of being of

Melanie (35:32.741)
you

Jacob (35:39.224)
helping the people understand that this is possibility that could happen and letting you know that that could be a thing. I think maybe the unethicalness could be burying it in the TOS of the thing that you do when you sign up. I think that that should be an obvious on the front page as you sign up like this could happen. And I think if it came more to the front lines, then I don't think this would be a topic of conversation. I think people would just understand that that's happening.

Matt (36:04.773)
Have you guys heard of Henrietta Lacks? You probably haven't, but there's a book out there about Henrietta Lacks. Tell us about him. Tell Melanie tell us about Henrietta Lacks. Do you know?

Shawn (36:07.487)
I have your baseball card Matt

Melanie (36:08.229)
you

Melanie (36:13.181)
my gosh. She's the woman who was like, she went to the doctor in like the seventies or eighties, right? And she had like cancer cells or something and they harvested the cells without telling her. And they've been alive for like forever and made all of these groundbreaking advances in research because of these cells that were harvested from Henrietta Lacks and she never received any benefit, right? Or something like that.

Matt (36:19.919)
Mm-hmm.

Jacob (36:24.783)
I have.

Matt (36:34.843)
Yeah, she's no longer alive, but her cells still live on and, those cells have been the source of like fabulous wealth and discoveries. But her family doesn't get any of the profit, Sean. Her family doesn't benefit at all from that because somebody else owns her cells. Well, of course, you can only see if there's a law, right? So there's no law at the time saying you can't take somebody's cells and use them. So what I'm saying

Shawn (36:42.175)
Hmm. Hmm.

Shawn (36:48.265)
Have they sued for it? Have they sued for it?

Shawn (36:58.013)
Hmm. So you're questioning whether or not there should be laws that would, you know.

Matt (37:02.201)
the protect your genetic information.

Jacob (37:04.718)
Or at least maybe you maintain partial ownership even as you give it out to be used. Maybe you can reclaim that. I think if she, I think she would have been totally fine, right? To donate herself for cancer research. I feel like I would be that if I had it, but I think that she should have been allowed to at least maintain like majority ownership of that deal. So speak.

Shawn (37:24.447)
But I think the answer here is consent, right? The law should protect your consent. You should have a clear choice to let yourselves be used or not. And if there's consent, then it's okay.

Matt (37:24.933)
Yeah.

Matt (37:36.389)
But Sean, but Sean and capitalism, idea of consent is that you're relatively fully informed about what you're consenting to and people do not understand the value of their genetic information. Early on with social media, people didn't understand the value of their behavior online and how much.

how that data would become more important for advertising than other things, right? So when you're assigning your consent form and saying, sure, you can use my genetic information, but you don't understand the value of what you're giving away, then that's not true consent. Because if it becomes more valuable over time, you should have the right to say, go ahead.

Melanie (38:10.149)
kinda wanna take...

Melanie (38:15.173)
Or yeah, I just like, I want to present a slightly different viewpoint. I don't necessarily know if I believe it, but I feel like we're all like, this is horrible. Don't use people's information against them. But I think if people

Shawn (38:20.767)
do it.

Shawn (38:25.139)
That's such a miles thing to say. I've got a viewpoint that I know I'm sure I believe in, but I'm going to present it. I like it.

Matt (38:29.755)
Ha

Melanie (38:31.115)
Why would you know what you believe when you could just present viewpoints for the sake of presenting viewpoints? Because I think if people decide that I don't want to know how much my genetic information is worth, if they aren't willing to put in the work to know its value, then should they really reap the benefits of its value? And if you have these people who are acquiring these databases and saying, I want to do stuff with this database. I see an opportunity to gain information here, and I'm willing to put in the work to gain the information.

Shawn (38:36.349)
I love it.

Matt (38:47.739)
Which you don't know because the tech-

Melanie (39:00.249)
then it's only fair that they receive their rewards, right? Like cycling back to Henrietta Lacks, she could not have done with her cancer cells what these immoral researchers probably did with their cancer cells, right? She didn't have the opportunity. And so if you have people who see an opportunity and take it, then should they not receive the rewards of the work that they did?

Matt (39:03.513)
So you're saying...

Matt (39:12.09)
researchers.

Matt (39:18.757)
Right?

Matt (39:25.999)
should they not compensate the person who gave them the information that they needed in order to make those discoveries? I'm not saying you can't have the genetic information to do research. I'm saying you can't say we've created value with other people's genetic information. In fact, this database is now more valuable than our entire company and we've created value using their genetic information and we're going to be the only ones to profit from that. And they have no...

Melanie (39:52.751)
but you're gonna compensate someone for sending in a cheek swab.

Matt (39:57.145)
You should. Yeah. They paid you a hundred. I had to pay a hundred dollars to get my DNA back from them. Right. So I actually paid them and then they did as part of their service. Well, we're going to keep that information. We'll share it with you, but we're going to keep that information. They shouldn't. I'm just saying like, it's not, it's not a fair exchange. If I don't understand the value of what I'm giving to you, there should be.

Shawn (39:58.397)
Hahaha!

Melanie (39:59.625)
Should you?

Shawn (40:18.537)
That's a good point, Matt. It's a great point, I think I don't, know, Adam and Eve in the right, in the day God created them, gave them their knowledge. And with that knowledge came agency. gave man agency. I don't, I don't know that you, I like your point, but I don't think you can say just because I didn't understand the value, but the potential future value of what I chose to freely give up means that there's some wrongdoing there.

I think it's all about disclosure. you're the 23andMe fine print said, Matt, you're choosing of your own free will and choice to give us the ability to resell this data for the good of man or for our own profit. And if you choose to agree to that, that's your agency that you use just because you didn't choose to read through it or do the research to decide, well, could I profit from this? don't think they're liable for that.

Matt (41:11.291)
Okay. All right. Topic number three, general conference is coming up this weekend. So, uh, let's say, let's talk conference predictions. guys have predictions for conference expectations. Sean, will you, will you break your normal trend and actually watch general conference this time?

Shawn (41:27.999)
I always watch it, just not maybe live because it's too early, but I watch it.

Matt (41:32.891)
You

Jacob (41:33.502)
Sean, you're not a live watcher?

Shawn (41:35.391)
No, the afternoon I watch the afternoon.

Matt (41:35.607)
Sean does not watch it live. I sometimes will text him during, I'll watch him during, I'll talk, text him during general conference and he'll be like, huh, what? I'm just waking Sean. Sean's like an owl. He has a very odd schedule. Yeah. Or I'll be sitting in the priesthood session and he'll be texting me about a basketball game or something. I know Sean's going to watch the final four instead of the Saturday evening session of conference.

Shawn (41:48.575)
That's right.

Shawn (41:58.825)
BYU's out, I don't care, BYU's gone.

Melanie (41:59.302)
Wait, wait, I'd forgotten that I had to make this decision.

Matt (42:03.387)
You don't apparently you can be like Sean and you can just watch it whenever you want to watch it and that's just fine

Shawn (42:03.647)
Melanie (42:08.353)
Split screen, right? Split screen basketball and general conference.

Jacob (42:11.99)
YouTube TV. Yep. That's an investment you could. Yep. It's multi view. That's yeah.

Matt (42:14.075)
When we when we were living in Kansas, because KU is in the Final Four almost every year, especially back then. It was it you had to go to the chapel to watch priesthood session. And it was so funny because you'd be sitting in the chapel for priesthood session and all these people on their phones or with earbuds in listening to the Final Four in the middle of the priesthood session of General Conference. It's a real challenge for people that

Melanie (42:21.805)
He's rubbing salt in the wound.

Shawn (42:38.633)
Ha

Matt (42:43.323)
are supporting a basketball team during general conference.

Jacob (42:47.682)
Listen, if BYU was in the final four, that would be a tough bargain. I think I'd be multi-viewing.

Shawn (42:47.711)
But maybe Matt, maybe Matt, I, yeah, if they're in the top four, yeah, that'd be different.

Matt (42:51.323)
You

Matt (42:55.835)
Do think next year, when BYU is in the Final Four, the church will be like, we need to reschedule General Conference.

Shawn (43:00.959)
You

Melanie (43:01.176)
you

Jacob (43:02.774)
Yeah, I was going to say they would probably be playing on probably Sunday, I would guess, right? If they have to abide by that Final Four schedule. perfect. Yeah, you might have to bump it to the next weekend, probably. They would lose a lot of viewership. That's what I'm saying. Like there wouldn't be a lot of people in the conference building, but a lot more people in San Antonio, where they ever they have it, if we do go there. Yeah, for sure.

Matt (43:09.059)
The final four goes Saturday, Monday. So it's always during the Saturday evening session. that...

Matt (43:25.144)
You

Melanie (43:26.053)
I just think that's the real reason we lost this time around. God was like, my people aren't ready to make this decision yet, so I'm not gonna give them the opportunity.

Shawn (43:31.303)
Hehehehehe

Matt (43:31.675)
It's a moment of preparation for next year so people can consider what they're going to do. Do you think that, do you think there will be general conference talks more about political things like last general conference that felt like there was very little political stuff. Do you think it'll be more political this time?

Melanie (43:39.726)
Yeah.

Shawn (43:53.183)
I think so at all.

Jacob (43:55.064)
think besides President Oaks, think everyone pretty much stays away from those topics.

Matt (43:58.853)
What about like immigration?

Shawn (44:01.511)
I don't think so. I don't think they'll be talking about it at all.

Matt (44:04.503)
Not at all. Refugees like President Ukdor or Elder Ukdor had a little thing on social media where he talked about being a refugee. don't think Elder Kieran, don't think Elder Kieran is going to talk immigration and refugees?

Shawn (44:07.167)
don't think so.

Jacob (44:12.268)
It was really good.

Shawn (44:13.501)
I don't know.

Shawn (44:17.299)
Matt, I don't know if you knew this, many people in the church are Republicans. I don't know, do know that?

Melanie (44:22.499)
you

Matt (44:23.704)
Yes, I'm a Republican, John.

Shawn (44:25.011)
And there's potentially, they're potentially, and many of them are potentially kind of satisfied with what's going on with this administration. So I don't think that there's a big, you know, I don't think many members are having a big problem with what's going on. So I don't think that there's a pressure for them to speak to it. I don't think they will. I could be wrong.

Matt (44:32.143)
huh.

Matt (44:43.845)
I think, don't you think members of our church are upset about the way immigration is being handled right now? Like they might be happy with the, with changes to the border or whatever, but did you see Christie Noam's photo off that she did in front of like the prisoners in El Salvador?

Shawn (45:00.391)
I did see something about that. Yeah, pretty, pretty gross.

Matt (45:02.211)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. just, I would just imagine that there are members of the church that aren't happy with the way some of the immigrants are being treated in the ways that they're deported and things like that. So I don't know. That's just a question.

Shawn (45:12.393)
But again, but you don't think that again, most members are Republicans and kind of toe that party line. You don't think most of them are kind of happy with what's going on. I'm not saying it's right, but don't you think they are?

Matt (45:23.515)
I don't know. guess maybe did. Okay. I'll ask another. Did you hear about the mother of five who was deported to Laos and she does she has five children in Minnesota that she was like separated from her family and all she did like she was here legally. Did you guys lose me? Okay. She was here legally, but like two years ago she had like this marijuana possession charge.

Melanie (45:42.338)
No.

Matt (45:51.065)
And her lawyer was like, yeah, you should just plead guilty to this. So she served two years in jail, released from jail. And now the Trump administration is like, anybody with a criminal record is going to be deported, whether you're here legally or not. She was here legally, but they deported her to Laos and kicked her out, like separated her from her family.

Shawn (46:08.307)
Matt, are you hijacking your question about general conference with your...

Melanie (46:11.269)
Hahaha

Matt (46:12.443)
No, no, I'm just saying, when you say like, a lot of members of the church are happy, I just think I don't know that members of the church are happy about that, but maybe they are. don't know.

Shawn (46:21.075)
Yeah, I don't know about that specifically. I don't know. Yeah.

Matt (46:24.107)
okay. All right. Okay, what do you think they're gonna announce temple? go ahead Melanie. Go ahead.

Melanie (46:27.213)
Wait, wait. It looks like Jacob's wanted to say something.

Jacob (46:31.086)
Oh, I was just like, to me that story twinges the heartstrings a little bit, right? we can find stories where like there's just no winner in that scenario. I mean, maybe the US government, but it doesn't feel like those five kids are the mom or even the lawyer, frankly, won in that scenario. And I just, think if we like going in general commerce, think general commerce is very, I mean, we've had how many? 180, 90, what would all this be? Semi-annuals.

Matt (46:35.835)
Yeah.

Melanie (46:58.341)
Is it 193?

Matt (47:00.41)
190 1830 will be 200 so this would be 195

Melanie (47:04.069)
195.

Jacob (47:04.142)
Okay, so we've had 195 of these. We're pretty good at teaching correct principles and hoping people govern themselves with those, right? I think we've pretty much based our church on that principle in some aspect. And so I would assume that I think as general authorities and officers address things of that order that I would hope people listen in. And I think as far as obviously members of the church listening in, hopefully adopt the mentality that there should be some humanity involved in every case of deportation.

Melanie (47:07.289)
Mm-hmm.

Jacob (47:30.99)
I don't know if that's necessarily gonna be how they address it, but I think that that should be reinforced. Maybe they talk about it in at least some aspect of children of God are all cherished and valued. But I would hope that that is talked about. I think it needs to be talked about more.

Matt (47:46.821)
What were you gonna say Melanie?

Melanie (47:49.149)
Nothing. You guys, you and Sean just like to go off and I'm like, I've been in Jacob's shoes. It's scary.

Matt (47:50.381)
Okay, you just want you just want me to not

Shawn (47:50.579)
No, no.

Jacob (47:52.076)
She's just my peer in here, so we're working together. It's two-man game.

Matt (47:54.806)
You

Okay, so do you think there will be any new temple announcements? I think there will probably be 20 because there have been 20 in the past, but any any places you think that they'll announce temples?

Jacob (48:09.294)
places.

Shawn (48:10.719)
Africa

Melanie (48:11.245)
You know, I hate to be that person, but I'd be down for another one in Utah Valley.

Matt (48:11.714)
Oklahoma?

Jacob (48:15.744)
We need another one.

Matt (48:15.861)
Stop. Are you kidding me? Where like Springville?

Shawn (48:16.073)
No, Melody.

Matt? Matt?

Melanie (48:20.517)
I'm just saying, I was trying to make an appointment to do baptisms this morning. The closest temple with an open baptisms appointment is like 45 minutes away.

Matt (48:29.627)
Jacob (48:29.964)
I think Vineyard can use a temple.

Shawn (48:30.111)
Yeah. Yeah. The interesting thing about that, Matt, so we, here in San Diego, our temple has been under construction for the last two years. And so we have to travel up about an hour and a half to Orange County to go to the temple. And at the same moment we're in, I'm in a stake where it's just big and crowded here in North, North San Diego. And we split our stake and we got this news that we're getting a new stake center just this week, but just this week, just this week, we got word that.

Matt (48:53.965)
Wow.

Shawn (48:58.399)
You're not growing fast enough in Southern California, so we can't afford to build you a steak center. So you're gonna continue to drive your 25 minutes to this other steak. And part of me goes, come on, like you, Melanie, like serve us, like bring the church to us, let us serve better. And the other part of me says, yeah, if we're not growing the church, then we don't get the resources, right? So I mean, they're focusing their temple builds where there's demand.

Matt (49:19.717)
It is-

Matt (49:24.867)
It is interesting how Melanie was complaining about 45 minutes away and some people celebrate when a temple becomes 45 minutes away from where they live. Yeah.

Melanie (49:28.921)
Hey.

Shawn (49:32.595)
Hahaha!

Melanie (49:34.551)
You know, it's your fault for moving me to Rexburg, okay? I've spent, 15 years with the closest temple being a five minute drive?

Shawn (49:38.055)
Yeah, spoiled her. You spoiled her, Matt.

Shawn (49:44.669)
Nice.

Matt (49:45.327)
There are people that want to rig the Idaho temple. I just can't see it happening.

Melanie (49:47.765)
they just announced Rexburg North.

Jacob (49:50.126)
So that's true. That was big, big for the people of Rexburg. When I first moved to St. George, we had obviously the one temple. And I think somehow it shocked us all when in like 2017, it was announced that we'd have another temple, which I can now buy two for my house. And it's a blessing. Second most pretty temple in Utah in my opinion, but not biased. But I think that as I reflect on the growth that's occurred in Washington County, like Washington fields where I live,

Matt (49:51.959)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Jacob (50:19.04)
It was a necessary purchase, right? Obviously, Sean, you mentioned like that there was demand and it was high. Like one temple for all of St. George is the fastest, one of the third fastest growing cities for like the past seven, eight years. It's kind of crazy. And I think that that can be applied to mostly Utah as a state. Like I think that's where we keep building them as people keep moving here. But as far as like other places in the world that I think the church is either a growing or there's demand as far as population of members. I can't think of many other places in the U S where.

It sounds like maybe San Diego could use blues, but I don't know.

Matt (50:51.393)
Man, those San Diego people stopped doing missionary work long ago.

Shawn (50:55.679)
I mean, Africa seems to be growing very quickly, right? So that could be some announcements for there. Matt, one other thing I'm excited to see is... Go ahead.

Jacob (50:56.11)
I took a skit from.

Melanie (51:03.683)
Wait.

Jacob (51:05.79)
I was just going to say, do you think that there's places like where they did in Mexico City where they just put temples and then you go to the temples, right? Where they build for in like the outskirts. Do think there's anywhere else in the world that they will do that as like hubs where people can go?

Matt (51:21.123)
I mean, I would say New York City or Chicago are large enough for that, but I don't think there are enough members of the church to justify that in those places. But I could see like, yeah, or Philippines. There's a lot of growth in the Philippines, but I just don't think there are cities large enough in those places to do it. But what were you going to say, Sean?

Jacob (51:28.718)
Do you think in Africa per se, like they do that? Yeah.

Shawn (51:41.087)
The other thing to look forward to with general conference is Elder Holland. So in the past few years, his health has been really, really bad. I've noticed in the last six months, he's become way more active. He's more present. He's on social media more, he's traveling more, and he's got this like vibrance back into him and he even speaks about it like, like, I don't know why, but God has given me a little extra boost here. So I really miss the Elder Holland.

sermons in general conference. So I really hope we get we get more of that like vibrant elder hall and back.

Matt (52:12.101)
Do you think President Nelson's message will be pre-recorded? Yeah.

Shawn (52:15.571)
Yeah, probably.

Jacob (52:17.28)
Is he recovered? Like, what do we know about his state status? Right. Yeah.

Shawn (52:20.211)
He's old.

Matt (52:20.387)
I don't know. Yeah, we don't see them in public very often. Do you think that they will unannounce the Russia temple? I keep saying that at some point, are they going to just admit this is never going to happen?

Melanie (52:25.829)
you

Jacob (52:27.566)
Shawn (52:27.603)
Hahaha!

Jacob (52:31.918)
Where did they?

Melanie (52:32.365)
You know, I have a friend who's convinced that the Russia temple has been built and operating in secret for a couple years now.

Matt (52:39.759)
Ha ha!

Jacob (52:39.948)
That's a pro conspiracy theory if I've ever heard one dude. That's crazy. Yeah.

Shawn (52:40.179)
Wow.

Melanie (52:42.075)
you

Matt (52:43.683)
Is this person a student at BYU?

Melanie (52:45.537)
Yes. They are not in the Russian department.

Jacob (52:49.916)
RM from Russia? Bias?

Matt (52:51.195)
How about this? We announced a temple in Far West in 1838 and we laid the cornerstones and never built it. Do think they'll ever say we're going to finally finish the Far West temple that's in the Doctrine and Covenants that says to start building a temple?

Shawn (52:51.751)
you

Shawn (53:05.951)
You're talking about, is it far west or independence?

Matt (53:09.157)
Far West. Independence, they announced the spot of the Independence temple, but Far West, actually laid the cornerstones. You can go to Far West and see the cornerstones there, but the temple's not there.

Jacob (53:09.486)
Far West.

Shawn (53:18.943)
Is there no demand there? There's nobody lives there, right?

Melanie (53:21.815)
You

Matt (53:23.021)
Nobody lives there. But like, is that a reason to not build a temple? Just because nobody's there.

Jacob (53:24.288)
Yeah, it's not a great populous place.

Shawn (53:27.551)
hahahaha

Jacob (53:28.491)
Yeah.

Matt (53:31.225)
Alright, we're gonna end on a con- Go ahead.

Jacob (53:31.694)
I think if they announce a far west temple, I think that would cause a lot of inner church ramifications of mass. I think pilgrimages are moving there. I think that would be interesting, at least maybe for people who don't think about it in a holistic way of, that's a sign of the second coming. It feels like at least when we're supposed to gather to Zion.

Shawn (53:41.471)
People moving? Really?

Matt (53:58.714)
Yeah.

Jacob (53:58.734)
That's close enough. Right. It feels like that would be really interesting. And they put one in Springfield, which caused enough chatter as it was in Illinois. And it was like an hour or so away from there. I think that was wild.

Matt (54:05.775)
Right.

Matt (54:09.335)
Nauvoo. Yeah. Speaking of bad investment ideas, I was going to build storage units out there in Adam on Diamond and then just send emails to people saying you have been invited to store your things in Adam on Diamond in preparation for future events. But I couldn't figure out how to do that and keep I think I would lose my

Shawn (54:09.407)
Ha

Melanie (54:10.053)
you

Melanie (54:27.139)
Why is this a bad investment idea? This is a great investment idea.

Jacob (54:30.242)
Yeah, I'm going to switch my major to entrepreneurship and go with that.

Matt (54:36.891)
All right, we're going to end on a contentious topic because everybody's talking about the signal leak. So for listeners who don't know, senior officials in the Trump administration were using the encrypted messaging app Signal to discuss sensitive military planning, specifically concerning potential strikes in Yemen. The action violated federal law. And if any other person had been caught doing this, they would have been terminated and faced federal charges. So I have two questions. First, do you think this is the only time this has happened in the Trump administration?

Melanie (54:39.663)
Ooh, fabulous.

Melanie (55:05.349)
you

Matt (55:06.777)
And second, does this show that Trump appointed incompetent people into positions of power?

Shawn (55:11.657)
Matt, I love that you've started or you've ended with the big question being, are government employees incompetent? I like that this is the side you're taking. In the context of the last couple of weeks of episodes, we've been talking about whether or not government employees are incompetent. And I see that, Matt, you now have bought in.

Melanie (55:17.189)
you

Matt (55:27.011)
I'm saying not at government employees, Trump appointees. Those are different, No, no, no. The secretary of defense hosted a news program on Fox News on the weekends. And somebody said, let's put him in charge of the secretary of defense, right? To me, that's not a politician. That's like immediate personality given a whole lot of power.

Shawn (55:30.495)
Yeah, politicians. All right, politicians.

Melanie (55:34.373)
Thank

Shawn (55:48.061)
I'm just happy, Matt, that you're pointing out the incompetence of politicians and government employees, which he is both.

Matt (55:50.127)
you

Matt (55:53.561)
So you're, okay, so you are saying that this was incompetence, this shows incompetence?

Shawn (55:58.321)
Of course it shows incompetence. What do you mean? How could it not? This absolutely does. if, you know, based on your question, if a law is broken, punish someone. If not, move on, because they all make mistakes. They're all levels of incompetence and competence. I don't think that we can nitpick on our favorite politicians or party and get mad and start pointing fingers. Yeah, if they did something wrong, punish them. If it is incompetent, yeah, go ahead.

Matt (56:22.147)
I have a friend who worked for the National Security Agency before he started working at BYU-Idaho as a professor. He said that if he had just been on this Telegram chat where classified information was shared, not only would he have been fired, his entire career path would have been over. Like everything he prepared his whole life to do would have been done and he would have had to find something totally different to do for his job. So no doubt that what they did is a fireable offense.

but I don't think that there's gonna be any accountability for it.

Shawn (56:54.879)
Yeah, but that's government. That's government. That's my argument about government. There's very little accountability. There's loyalty to a party and you're protected and doing dumb things. For example, in 2021, 13 US servicemen were killed and 45 were wounded. And we lost 70 billion in military equipment in Afghanistan. There's no objective analysis of that.

Matt (57:20.463)
Yes.

Shawn (57:24.927)
moment in history that would say that that was well done. No one got fired, right? But you can say that it was incompetence, but the...

Matt (57:26.597)
situation.

Right.

Matt (57:32.889)
I would say if Joe Biden got fired eventually, that kind of played heavily into people's thinking about Joe Biden after that. It fundamentally changed the way people thought he had, he had great approval ratings until that. And then after that his approval ratings tanked. So I would say, yeah, it had a big effect on what people thought about Joe Biden as a president.

Shawn (57:38.48)
OK.

Shawn (57:46.633)
Is that right?

Shawn (57:51.495)
Yeah, but Joe Biden protected all of his guys within his party. No one who was so incompetent in that got fired. So I'm just saying that, yes, of course, it's terrible that they don't. They should. But that's the nature of government, Matt.

Matt (57:54.979)
Yeah, yeah,

Matt (58:03.579)
Do you think, and you're saying this is not the first time this happened. Do you think other people have done this in the Trump administration?

Shawn (58:12.265)
Then what? I don't know.

Matt (58:13.799)
leaked classified information on the only reason we know about this particular one is because they accidentally added a journalist. Don't you think they've also accidentally added other people at other times in the past? Yeah, it's crazy. And one of the people on the chat was in Russia at the time, like, I've spent a little bit of time in Russia, they're super good at hacking information on people's phones when you're in Russia. It's like, why would you do this like in a foreign country? Anyhow?

Jacob (58:24.254)
accidentally added a journalist feels really incompetent.

Melanie (58:37.797)
hahahaha

Matt (58:42.809)
Alright, I guess everybody agrees this was incompetent. Anybody want to defend it? okay. Alright.

Melanie (58:46.831)
I think so.

Shawn (58:48.871)
It's too bad that Sam isn't here because Sam would be the defender, right? He would find some angle to defend this.

Matt (58:52.158)
You

Melanie (58:52.397)
Well, maybe there was an intentional mole. Maybe they just like really wanted this news to get out for some reason. And it's just like a political strategy we can't grasp yet.

Matt (58:56.763)
Matt (59:00.443)
you

Jacob (59:04.514)
Was the whole point to plan things without approval as efficiency? Do we know the whole motive behind the whole scenario?

Matt (59:11.663)
They thought it was a secure chat. so the whole, there's something called a skiff that you have to go to in order to access classified information. And so it was just laziness. They didn't want to get off of their phones and go use the secure app and the secure location. So yeah, they were just discussing a mission.

Jacob (59:22.126)
Mm.

Shawn (59:27.241)
Right. Matt, it change your mind at all that the mission they were discussing was a successful mission? Do you just chalk it up as, these guys made a mistake and lesson learned, move along because the end result wasn't affected? Or do you look at this as a fuel for you to rile against this administration that you hate?

Matt (59:34.863)
No, no.

Matt (59:44.258)
It's because

No, no, it's because I have a son who's in the army, right? So the idea that a member of the armed services could be on their way to an attack and that the enemy would somehow know that information so that they could kill them. Like I'm so happy that this was a successful mission, but that success has nothing to do with the decision at the top, right? To discuss this in an unsecure way.

Shawn (01:00:10.271)
Do you look at, whether you like the administration or not, this is your government. Do you look at it as, you know what, I want to root for success. I don't want to play politics and say, I want these guys to fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, and bad things to happen so that it's an administration that gets out of the way. That's the attitude I had during the Biden administration. I didn't like them. I don't like what they did. I didn't like anything they did. But I was never like, good, hope bad things happen so that they get voted out.

I wanted them to succeed. So do you look at this in that light or do you go, nope, this is good. This is good because this eventually will be the downfall of the Trump administration.

Matt (01:00:40.036)
Right.

Matt (01:00:48.461)
No, I don't care about the downfall of the Trump administration. think that I think I said this before, when we were talking about the people Trump was appointing to these positions, that Trump was appointing incompetent people to run the government. And I, and I agree with you, Sean. This is 100 % evidence that he chose incompetent people to run the government. If anybody had any kind of in like, if Pete Hesgoth had any kind of experience or qualifications to prepare him for this job, it never would have happened.

Shawn (01:01:01.961)
Do think this is evidence of that?

Hahaha

Matt (01:01:18.307)
And you can say the same of all the other principals who were on that Signal Chat.

Shawn (01:01:21.951)
So then again, my question is, did you go, okay, this guy who's never been in government just learned a very hard but valuable lesson. Great, that's the experience he needs. Now go for it. Instead of going, you're incompetent, this is a stupid administration. Do you instead go, all right, go take this lesson and be better?

Matt (01:01:38.861)
My hope is that, we have what? 100 million Republicans out there? My hope is that the Senate Republicans who confirmed these people will demand that we replace them with better people. It's not hard to find, it's not like it's hard to find a Republican aligned person who would be qualified to run the Department of Defense or a Secretary of National Intelligence. Not like these people are hard to find. Of course he should lose his job. He should lose his job. What's that?

Shawn (01:01:50.431)
Melanie (01:01:57.975)
you

Shawn (01:02:00.755)
So you feel like he should lose his job? You feel like he should be? Did you feel?

Jacob (01:02:05.294)
He did his job bad. I just said he did his job bad. Seems like a good call.

Matt (01:02:09.123)
Yeah, that's right. You can replace him with with at least a hundred million other people that would have the same ideology and would do a better job.

Shawn (01:02:09.895)
No, but let me hit, but.

Shawn (01:02:14.303)
Okay, but hang on though, hang on, I'll play the Sam side here. Why didn't I hear you screaming like this about Lloyd Austin, who was the...

Melanie (01:02:18.882)
you

Matt (01:02:22.829)
You heard me screaming. You heard me screaming like this about each one of these people before they got confirmed in the Senate. I don't say it about Lloyd Austin did not do this.

Shawn (01:02:28.637)
No, no. Lloyd Austin was the secretary. Was it? No, no, no, but he was the secretary of defense that ended up getting 13 servicemen killed, losing 70 billion dollars in military equipment in Afghanistan. He was the secretary of defense at the time. And I don't hear Democrats go and this guy should be removed or Republicans even saying.

Matt (01:02:44.549)
Okay, so it's one thing to say I don't think that Lloyd Austin handled the withdrawal of Afghanistan in an appropriate way. That's a matter of opinion. on those things, sort of, Sean, Sean, maybe we lost more people in Vietnam than we should have. Maybe we lost more people in the Gulf War than we should have. Like those are things that are unknowable. What I know is Pete has got

Shawn (01:02:56.895)
13, 13 Americans died, 45, 170 Afghan civilians.

Matt (01:03:11.873)
violated federal law and everybody can see the evidence. I don't care. Everybody sees the evidence.

Shawn (01:03:13.648)
No one died.

Melanie (01:03:16.045)
And like, if we look at, we can look at Afghanistan and say that was a bad strategic decision, right? Like, I don't know the situation very well, but I think we can say that. And we can look at Pete Hesgeth and say, adding a journalist to this chat because you couldn't look at the contact all the way is a really bad strategic decision. And if we know he's making those in terms of group chats about military strikes.

Shawn (01:03:16.584)
Okay.

Go ahead, Melanie.

Melanie (01:03:43.161)
Do we really want him in charge of the Afganistans of our future?

Matt (01:03:47.579)
There you go. That's a great final word. Points to everybody except for me today. I wasn't on my A game, but good job, you guys. It was really great having you with us. Hey, listener.

Jacob (01:03:48.706)
Melanie gets the points.

Shawn (01:03:51.359)
Good.

Shawn (01:03:58.143)
You're not Matt. You are always on your A game in my in my view. You're always on your A game and deserve points.

Matt (01:04:08.091)
Well, thank you, Sean. I appreciate that. And that's such a happy way to end the podcast. Listener, we're glad you joined us this week. We hope you'll join us again next week. Have a great day. Good job, you guys.

Melanie (01:04:12.644)
You