Matt (00:01.272)
Hello and welcome to the Latter Day Lens podcast. And a special welcome to all of our international listeners. I don't know if you know this, Sean, but our global reach is growing. We now have as many listeners in Australia as we do in Logan, Utah. So this is not a Utah podcast anymore.

Shawn (00:20.242)
Haha!

I don't think it ever has been. I think we really have been, yeah.

Matt (00:26.466)
Yeah, it's always been. Yeah, but but but for some reason the international people have found us so we welcome you. We're happy to have you with us. Keep telling your friends about the podcast. I'm sure you're trying to understand what's happening in the United States of America just like we are. So today we have.

Shawn (00:43.306)
And I'm sure you don't all have the luxury of a best friend who is a political scientist to navigate through these times and issues. Well, we do. I do, at least. Yeah, that's right.

Matt (00:57.644)
That's why we're here to help help people out and we have a special guest with us today. Her name is Melanie Every time I say your name Melanie. I say it like this Melanie Melanie

Melanie (01:11.803)
But yeah, hi everyone, I'm Melanie, you've heard me here before and I'm here again.

Matt (01:18.21)
Yeah, it's good to have you. Okay, so we're gonna open the mailbag. There were a number of things in the mailbag. Some of them were a little bit long, so I chose the shortest possible thing in the mailbag. So one listener wrote, Sean, what makes you think that due process always requires a jury trial? People have the choice to go to a jury trial, but often they don't choose it. Did Trump ask for a jury trial and have it denied? If so, then he was denied the right to due process. If he declined a jury trial,

then that was also his right and due process was followed.

Shawn (01:51.434)
Well, I didn't actually say that because there wasn't a jury trial, that wasn't the due process that he deserved. So here's examples of due process, at least in my research. You should have the right to counsel, the right to a neutral tribunal, the right to notice. I didn't question anything. The right to notice, how about this one? The right to present a case? He did not have that right because it didn't go to trial.

Matt (02:07.17)
He had all of those. Are you seriously going to question that, Sean?

Matt (02:16.245)
Yeah, he had that right.

Matt (02:20.652)
Did you know, Sean, before you get indicted, the prosecution presents their evidence and the defense can present whatever evidence that they want? And he was still indicted.

Shawn (02:28.842)
Well, that would be, I don't think the defense can present in a, all right, all right, you're spouting stuff off that I didn't look up. So we're to have to go back and look that up.

Matt (02:33.336)
Sure they can.

I'm sorry. Yes, Trump had plenty of opportunities to present a defense.

Shawn (02:42.1)
So you're saying at what point did he have that? Right.

Matt (02:45.87)
all along the way, but specifically at the point when they indicted him, before he was indicted.

Shawn (02:47.86)
No, no.

Shawn (02:51.828)
But hang on, but it didn't go to a, there was just a report. There was just a special report. There's one guy and a team of his and his team members going to try and discover whether or not there's enough evidence or enough, what? okay.

Matt (02:57.718)
No.

Melanie (02:58.459)
Thank

Matt (03:04.694)
No, no that's not what happened. No, no, the special report was they released for the public all of the evidence that they had against Trump. But there was all, what happened? The prosecution, the US government.

Shawn (03:16.81)
Who did? Who did release that?

Shawn (03:22.602)
Okay. So what's the point? What's the point? What's the point of a special report then?

Matt (03:23.51)
Okay, so it's the equivalent of this.

Because when Donald Trump is president, they were afraid that as president he would make it so that that information was not publicly available, that he would classify the information because the president can do that, that he would destroy that information because the president can do that. He's already, well, I'm not going to go into all of that stuff, but the fear was that he would destroy that evidence. So they released the evidence before he became president so that everybody could see the evidence against him.

Shawn (03:56.894)
So you're saying that what I'm not defending him, by the way, again, if the law was broken, I think he should be punished. I don't think a president should should save him from that. What I'm saying is, go ahead, go ahead.

Matt (04:07.234)
Well, yeah. So are you familiar with the Brian Kohlberger trial in Idaho?

Shawn (04:14.42)
What did you just say to me?

Matt (04:15.882)
Okay, all right. So, okay, so this would be like two or three years ago, a guy named Brian Kohlberger allegedly murdered four University of Idaho students. And, and they found evidence connecting him to the crime and they are

Shawn (04:40.948)
Four years.

Shawn (04:45.236)
So it's been four years, hang on, before Matt's audio comes back, you're saying that it's been four years that this guy's been sitting in prison waiting to get his day in court so that the prosecution can provide its evidence and so that his defense can defend it. And for four years this dude's been sitting in jail.

Melanie (04:48.699)
you

Melanie (05:06.563)
I do think that's the case he's making.

Shawn (05:09.95)
That's not due. How is that due? I don't know. Melanie, is that due process?

Melanie (05:14.079)
see, I'm not the scholar here, but I don't know. I think the question is, is he sitting in jail because he's stuck in this appeals process? Is he like holding it up somehow, or are they just waiting for an attorney?

Shawn (05:25.034)
Oh, okay. That's a great point because that would be due process, right? So Matt, you saying, Matt's back, are you saying that this guy was put in jail, he's been sitting there for four years and is waiting for his chance to answer the prosecution's evidence against him?

Matt (05:43.096)
He's waiting for the trial to happen, right? And so you have, because he wants evidence thrown out of court. He says,

Shawn (05:45.874)
Why though? Why has it been four years?

Shawn (05:50.994)
he's going, Melanie nailed it then. He's going through, he's appealing the process. So that's due process, yeah.

Matt (05:54.38)
Yeah. And so, right, so Trump was in that process when he was elected president. And so it never went to trial because he was elected president. So he was...

Shawn (06:03.146)
But that's my only point. don't defend the reason it didn't go to trial. If he broke the law, he should have gone to trial. He should have defended himself and been found guilty if he was guilty. My point is, why jump to any conclusion? I can't jump to a conclusion if he didn't get his due process. I don't agree with the reason he didn't get his due process, but he didn't get his due process.

Matt (06:18.637)
If you're

Matt (06:22.254)
You're just saying that didn't go all the way to the end of the trial. It stopped in the middle.

Shawn (06:25.854)
That's the only, I mean, that's the only system we have is in order to pass judgment on these kinds of things is to go through due process, go to trial.

Matt (06:31.894)
Okay, but if this guy in Idaho, let's say that he dies and we never find out whether or not he never goes to trial because he dies or something happens and the prosecutor says, let's release all the evidence we had on this guy and let people come to their own conclusions. That's fine. We can do that, right? We could look at all of that evidence and come to our own conclusions.

Shawn (06:51.146)
Okay, that's good. I like that. Okay. That's your saying, that's the Trump situation. The report is simply, here's what would have been revealed had this gone to trial, had he been given a chance to defend himself, this is what he would have been defending against. Make your own decisions. That's what it's for. Okay, that's not due process, but that's fine to do.

Matt (06:55.863)
Okay.

Matt (07:07.256)
Yes, that's right. Yeah.

Okay. All right, Melanie, you're up with a thought provoker this week.

Melanie (07:12.731)
you

Okay, yes I am. So funny story, I have the BBC News app on my phone and the breaking news notifications I get from BBC are my only source of news these days because I have too much in my life to regularly check the apps. And this past week I was sitting in the library doing my physics homework and this notification pops up and it's like Thailand recently legalized gay marriage and naturally because I wanted a distraction from my homework

Shawn (07:27.466)
You

Melanie (07:43.331)
I shared this news with my friends who were doing homework with me. And one of them looked over and was like, thanks for sharing that Mel. And I was like, no problem. And so then it got me thinking, like, why is it that we as Western powers are invested in whether Thailand has legalized gay marriage? Right? Why does that show up on my phone as breaking news? And so my question that I'm posing for you guys this week.

is what is our responsibility as global powers to monitor these things that we see as human rights issues in other countries? And do we have a responsibility to do that? And if so, where does our responsibility reach?

Matt (08:22.596)
Okay, so today is the 80th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp. I don't know if you knew that, but yeah, so that's a timely question, Melanie, right? So the question could be rephrased as, should we have gone into Auschwitz and liberated all those people? And so your question is, where is the line, right? Because I think we would all agree that it was good that we liberated

Shawn (08:31.614)
Whoa.

Matt (08:52.12)
people from concentration camps and during an end of the Holocaust. But same sex marriage, is that maybe too much imposing our values? I always come down on the line on the side of human rights. If a government is violating human rights, we have to step in. But if they're not, then we can let them do what they want to do.

Melanie (09:14.021)
But then what do you define as a human right?

Matt (09:16.696)
Healthcare is a human right.

Shawn (09:18.738)
hahahahah

Matt (09:20.976)
I heard Bernie Sanders say that the other day, healthcare is a human right?

Melanie (09:25.275)
See, like, personally feel like steak and shrimp is a human right, right?

Matt (09:28.516)
You don't even like shrimp. would not. If you, but you don't. Well, I think in our founding documents, we say that life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights. So then I think that's what people end up arguing about is what is a human right? What do you say, Sean?

Shawn (09:30.698)
You

Shawn (09:55.05)
Well, first question, Matt, what is the principle behind, I think we should go to the extent of even get involved militarily with these governments in the name of protecting human rights? So what's the scriptural principle or the religious principle behind, yeah, we should intervene when human rights are being violated?

Matt (10:03.588)
100%. 100%.

Matt (10:08.963)
Yes.

Matt (10:16.844)
It's that scripture you always share in the Doctrine and Covenants. That governments should be should be held up as long as they are protecting human rights. I think that's what it says. Isn't that what it says,

Shawn (10:29.694)
Property ownership was number one. No, that was number three. It was one of them. It was one of them.

Matt (10:31.114)
no no no okay now i've got to find it now i've got to find it there's no way it was property ownership hold on

Shawn (10:37.264)
It is, it's three things. It's liberty, justice, and property.

Matt (10:40.804)
Oh my goodness. What section is this? 135? 134? Here, 134. Doctrine and Covenants, section 134. It says, we believe that no government can exist in peace except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life. You said it was first. It wasn't first.

Shawn (10:46.25)
You need me to find it?

Melanie (11:05.755)
you

Shawn (11:06.026)
So, right, the extra, so free agency, free will, right? That's the right to speak, to say what you want and not be censored. Then the freedom of property.

Matt (11:16.992)
In verse four, verse four is the freedom of religion, that we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, and that we should...

Shawn (11:28.978)
let's keep, hang on, just a mental note. Let's keep that in mind for when we get to Matt's final question about Elon Musk and the IDF. That's a good one. So we'll refer back.

Matt (11:37.822)
okay. It says, it says that people should be honored in their station as rulers and magistrates. And we should, they deserve our deference. But it's like as long as they are. Here we go. It says, all men owe respect and deference as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror. Human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's the doctrine and confidence. Yeah.

Melanie (12:10.043)
Okay, hold up. I feel like you skipped over the most important part of verse four, where it straight up says, believe that religion is instituted of God and that men are amenable to him, yada, yada, yada, for the exercise of it unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others. I feel like that's a very intriguing thought.

Matt (12:28.462)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (12:29.29)
Hmm.

Matt (12:32.814)
By the way, it also says slavery is wrong in that same section. Yeah. Well, so that's, to me, that's the doctrinal principle that...

Shawn (12:32.874)
Very.

Melanie (12:35.833)
We like that one.

Shawn (12:41.886)
Very good, you brought a scripture, I love that. Okay, I can get behind that, especially the property part, Matt. No, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. I can get behind that. I thought, Melanie, that this discussion was gonna go towards like globalism versus domestic policy or nationalism versus globalism. Like when is it the right time or is it ever the right time for our government to

Matt (12:50.917)
I know, of course.

Melanie (12:52.134)
you

Shawn (13:11.348)
get involved globally and is their purpose and reason behind that? Is that the...

Melanie (13:14.905)
Right, see, because I feel like there are two doctrinal principles kind of standing in conflict here, right? Where we have the idea that government exists for the good of the people, for the good of the governed, right? And then you also have this idea that we're supposed to teach men correct principles and let them govern themselves, right? So us here in the United States, we have our government and we can think that it should run however we think it should run. But then if we look at these other foreign countries, right?

Do we have the responsibility to impose upon them what we believe government should be and to preserve what we see as human rights? Or are we simply supposed to teach them by example and then let them govern themselves? That's the question I really want to dig into.

Shawn (13:59.562)
Wow, yeah, you're going into philosophy there, right? I mean, there's a lot of angles we could take it, right? Like I look at it from, like if we looked at it from a religious, the restored gospel lens, right? There's this scripture I found, ran across it in D &C 103. It says, Verily I say to you, I have decreed that your brethren which have been scattered shall return to the lands of their inheritances and shall build upon the wastes places of Zion.

I've been fascinated with this idea that the chosen, God's chosen people, right, Israel have been scattered. And we know, this is just a theory, Matt, you're good with wild theories. We know that certain tribes have been given promised lands, right? I'm assuming it's the, it's Joseph, Manasseh, and Ephraim who've been promised an inheritance in the Americas. I assume that it's the tribe of Judah who is receiving land, right? Inheritance over there in the, in the Middle East.

Why is it not possible that they will try Matt? your favorite tribe? Your favorite one? Is it Dan? Who's to say the tribe of Dan's land of inheritance isn't in Thailand? So should we as

Matt (14:58.712)
Dan. Yeah.

Melanie (14:59.813)
You

Matt (15:05.508)
Well, because they were given specific land, Sean. They were given land in the Jerusalem area, the Kingdom of Israel. Yeah. Well, actually, that's why Dan's my favorite because he was a...

Shawn (15:11.526)
Dan was? My bad.

My bad for not knowing which land Dan gets. My bad.

Matt (15:20.696)
Well, no, I'm saying that the scattering of the tribes of Israel was them leaving the Middle East and going all over the earth, but they're supposed to come back again to those places.

Shawn (15:32.884)
But the promised land, or sorry, the promised inherited land, I think of Ephraim and Manasseh or Joseph's line, isn't that the Americans? Doesn't the Book of Mormon talk about how...

Matt (15:36.983)
It's in Jerusalem.

Matt (15:43.064)
No, they had land. Ephraim and Manasseh had land in Jerusalem.

Shawn (15:47.228)
Okay, okay, so I just have it wrong. So it's not that, so you're saying that there's no evidence that outside of basically Jerusalem or the Middle East, there's no promised inherited lands to the tribes of Israel. Okay, well then that blows up my theory. Okay, well then Thailand perhaps is a less beloved place to the Lord. And maybe that doesn't matter if we get involved globally. I was gonna make the point that if, if,

Matt (15:59.566)
correct.

Shawn (16:12.712)
I don't know, man. think perhaps the scattering of Israel isn't gather them back into their, back to Jerusalem. I think the stakes of Zion are being set in the various places across the globe for the purpose to gather them there, right? And then, so the point, my point would be Melanie, I want our government to be involved globally, set those relations well so that we can get missionary work into those. That veers it off into a totally different topic, Melanie. So maybe that's not the way you wanted it.

Matt (16:24.856)
to gather them there.

Melanie (16:40.249)
No, I think that's a really good point though, right? We're told to gather Zion where we live, so it's maybe not a political responsibility to go out and care about human rights, but it is a religious responsibility to foster a place where the gospel can flourish.

Matt (16:54.306)
Yeah, I'll give you the points for that, Mellie. You get the points. You don't want the points for that?

Shawn (16:54.515)
yeah?

Melanie (16:55.705)
Maybe? come on. These feel like cheap points.

Matt (17:01.979)
Shawn (17:02.122)
Melanie, you know better than most. I think I do too, that Matt doesn't know how to give valuable quality points. It's always backhanded.

Matt (17:08.548)
I give it Sean you're giving her the points to right see

Melanie (17:10.916)
You're right.

Shawn (17:15.292)
I'm definitely giving you the points because I love how you ask questions. So far, I've been privy of you asking like six or seven questions. And so far, I just love the motive behind every single one of them. You get the points. I think it's great.

Matt (17:26.788)
Okay, all right, Sean, you're up next.

Melanie (17:26.885)
Thank you, thank you.

Shawn (17:30.984)
All right, man. My question is, my wife says a boring one. no, it's a good one. It's a good one. It's a good one. So the US State Department has issued a halt to nearly all existing foreign assistance and paused new aid with exceptions to Israel and Egypt. If the US government is going to cede its role in helping support democracies and people in need around the world, then what should good people do is the question.

Matt (17:35.876)
my heavens, my heavens.

Melanie (17:36.811)
you

Matt (18:00.228)
How could your wife think that's a boring question, Sean? We should scold her.

Shawn (18:02.398)
She didn't, she didn't, she didn't. No, she literally didn't, actually.

Matt (18:05.944)
Well, so we've talked about this before that if the United States is no longer going to be the light on the hill and the beacon of freedom and all of that stuff that other places are going to fill that void. And I don't think people understand the gravity of, of the United States saying we are no longer providing foreign assistance, right? Like there are Afghans who are still leaving that country who helped us back in the day that no longer have the, are not going to be able to leave Afghanistan. And there are

Shawn (18:33.93)
Okay, but I've got a lot of questions for you, because I know your stance is we must be involved, otherwise other parties will come in and influence it in the way we don't want to, right? So let me ask you this, Matt. We're talking about charity. Would you agree that foreign aid or aid in any way, whether it's domestic or foreign, is charity, at least by name? Why not?

Matt (18:35.96)
Do I go ahead?

Matt (18:41.294)
Yeah!

Matt (18:46.297)
Yes.

Matt (18:54.198)
No, no, it's soft, it's soft power. It's carrots and sticks.

Shawn (18:59.006)
So it's political aid or it's charity for the sake of political strategy.

Matt (19:07.716)
So some of it you could say is just like humanitarian goodness, right? In that sense, some of the humanitarian stuff maybe is altruism.

Shawn (19:14.952)
Altruism, altruism. But hang on, on. You don't think even the humanitarian stuff is for political strategy. You even said like a little while ago that China has, you're on some cruise in some island like the 53rd of the year and.

Matt (19:23.809)
Not all of it, no.

Matt (19:28.612)
Yeah, yeah. And they're sending kids to college. Like 53rd. Yeah.

Melanie (19:32.027)
Sounds like a reasonable estimate.

Shawn (19:34.026)
But you think that was altruistic or do you think that was political strategy?

Matt (19:39.096)
Soft power, yeah, I call that soft power.

Shawn (19:41.78)
So give me one example of an altruistic form of charitable aid that the US government has given.

Matt (19:47.694)
There are countries where malaria is rampant and we have access to drugs that can cure malaria and we just give them those drugs.

Shawn (19:55.966)
And that's not for political strategy or gain. That is literally for altruistic reasons.

Matt (19:58.596)
I mean, so one could I mean, probably everything you do good could be for some kind of reciprocity. But when a country is so weak, and when a country has so little influence on the global stage, it's hard to argue that you're doing something for them for political reasons. But at the same time, like if you're a homeless person on the street, and a really wealthy person gives you $20, you're going to feel have kinder feelings towards that person, right?

But that doesn't mean that that's the reason why they gave you that $20. And so there are things where we're doing like AIDS prevention. Some of it is like, it ultimately helps us too, right? Because if you stop the spread of AIDS globally, you can stop the spread of AIDS in the United States. But some of it is just altruistic.

Shawn (20:43.922)
Okay, so you're gonna be consistent in your stance on this. You hate that Donald Trump has pulled back all aid. You believe that we should be, okay, so let me ask you this though. Don't you think, okay, so the reason I ask about is aid charity. Sometimes it's altruistic and sometimes it's for political strategy. And Melanie, before you teach us everything about this, I just wanna nail Matt on this real quick. So I struggled with, okay, in what situation is,

Matt (20:51.331)
Yes.

Shawn (21:10.562)
Is it okay then for my money that my government is using to be used as aid in the name of political strategy? Or would I prefer that it's just, charity should be charity, right? It's the true love of Christ. It never faileth if it is from true intentions. And so I kind of went back and forth and thought, charity, it's not charity. Don't call it charity, I guess you're not, but is it really aid if it's literally the self-interest is for us to position ourselves?

So let me ask you this. We know now we've been exposed to Donald Trump enough to know that he uses all of these things, taxes, tariffs, relations, aid as negotiating tactics to get leverage of power over his enemies. Didn't it just happen this week? it Cuba wasn't letting Columbia wasn't, wasn't letting, refugee migrants and the US was trying to fly them. they said, no, no, no, no, no. Trump says, all right.

Matt (21:57.806)
Columbia, Columbia.

Matt (22:02.732)
migrants back into their deported

Shawn (22:09.128)
big tariffs and they say, no, we'll let him in. No problem. No big deal. Right.

Matt (22:12.804)
That's hype, Sean, that's not reality. That's just hype. No, it didn't work. No, it didn't work. Columbia's not letting those people back in.

Shawn (22:15.924)
What do mean it worked? It worked for him. What do mean?

Shawn (22:22.674)
That's not what the news reports say.

Matt (22:24.428)
Right, that's what I'm saying. It's all hype.

Shawn (22:27.667)
you're saying that they're all wrong and they're not going to let him back in?

Matt (22:30.648)
Right, did you see what the president of Colombia posted on Twitter? I think it was Twitter. He's not letting him in.

Shawn (22:32.468)
What?

I didn't. All I saw was a bunch of news articles that said they're not letting me in. And then within five or six hours there.

Melanie (22:38.309)
Thank

Matt (22:40.876)
Right.

Melanie (22:41.101)
Wait, Sean, you're telling me you don't follow the president of Columbia on Twitter?

Matt (22:44.58)
What I'm saying to you Sean is like that thing what you're saying that Trump uses these things as tools is hype. It doesn't actually work out that way.

Shawn (22:45.182)
hahahaha

Shawn (22:55.754)
I know you're saying those words, but I've read five articles now that said that it did work. Why would I believe them over you? Or you over them? Okay, as you're looking it up though, my really kind of question is this. We know this is how Trump positions himself. There's no way that he's pulling back all this aid just for the sake of domestic investment of our money. He's absolutely pulling it back.

Matt (23:04.964)
Hold on, I'm Googling it right now.

Shawn (23:24.49)
to scare everyone around the world into a position of his leverage power in negotiations. Don't you think? The aid is going back, but only as a tool for him to use as leverage in negotiations, for sure. What do you think, Melanie? No?

Matt (23:35.48)
No.

Matt (23:39.064)
No, I don't think that that's true.

Melanie (23:42.181)
Do you think he's gonna reallocate the aid? Like say, we have all of these funds now and I'm just gonna give it to whoever makes me happiest.

Shawn (23:49.064)
I think he's going to go to the countries who were getting the aid and he's going to negotiate with them more terms based on what he wants. Hey, Mexico, you're going to have to start enforcing your borders of people coming in. If not, no more aid. Okay, we'll do a better job. All right, then you get some aid. I think he is going to do that. I think that's the only purpose.

Matt (24:09.412)
Sean, you're right. Columbia sent some planes to pick up those migrants.

Shawn (24:14.099)
you fact, you fact.

Matt (24:14.744)
Yeah. No, I was remembering something from earlier. This happened like six hours ago. So yeah, yeah. Sean's following the news closer than I am on this particular thing. But no, think Sean, the reality, I do agree that Trump uses the threats to try to get what he wants. I don't think that's what's happening in the case of foreign aid. I think that Trump legitimately has an America first agenda.

Melanie (24:14.767)
The five articles won.

Shawn (24:25.044)
Yes, yeah, just happened.

Melanie (24:30.0)
you

Matt (24:44.16)
And he believes that foreign aid is a waste of our money. And so he's cutting foreign aid because he thinks that it's not a good use of American money.

Shawn (24:52.402)
I just got to look at the go ahead.

Melanie (24:52.421)
So if you think that he's cutting it because it's not a good use of American money, then why is he keeping it for Israel and nobody else?

Matt (24:59.256)
because his donors are big supporters of Israel, because Trump is very pro-Israel, because Trump, right, because that's, that he doesn't think that that one is a waste of our money. But he thinks that everything else, he doesn't know enough about what's happening on the global stage to really have an opinion about all of these things, right? He just broadly, he campaigned on this, that he was gonna cut all foreign aid, not as a negotiating tactic, but as a way to say, let's,

Melanie (25:02.925)
I'm

Matt (25:27.384)
get American money back into Americans' pockets.

Shawn (25:29.674)
But he's never said, it's for the tariffs and all this other stuff is for negotiating tactics, but it is clearly revealed that these are all his negotiating tactics. He is at heart a business person. These are all negotiating tactics, period. Melanie, you think so or no? No.

Matt (25:43.812)
But in the meantime...

Matt (25:47.936)
In the meantime, suffers. In the meantime, our allies around the world suffer. In the meantime, our promises aren't kept.

Shawn (25:53.01)
Yeah, I agree. But don't you think? But the moment all this aid got pulled back, I also saw a headline today that said, Zalinski and Trump are going to meet at the table to start talking.

Matt (26:02.35)
Well, of course they are. What are you supposed to do if you're President Zelensky? He has no power in this situation. He's going to say and do anything that Trump wants him to say and do.

Shawn (26:09.194)
Yeah, I know, but he's

Yeah, because he held because he's holding back the stupid aid. And now he really is going to do a Trump want so he's using it as a negotiating tactic.

Matt (26:14.948)
Okay, then, that a responsible thing to do, Sean?

Shawn (26:22.142)
So that's my whole point in the question is, don't, aid to me, whether it's aid domestically in the form of,

Matt (26:33.206)
I think it was $500 billion that Trump said that they're going to spend on OpenAI, the chat GPT company. They're putting $500 billion grant to a private company in the United States.

Shawn (26:40.852)
That's not aid, that's investment.

Shawn (26:46.14)
I see you're saying you're saying he's taken the aid in order to invest it not to give aid domestically but to invest it domestically.

Matt (26:52.74)
But the United States doesn't invest. So it's USAID, right? We're taking $500 billion and we're giving it to OpenAI, a private company.

Melanie (26:59.821)
As a voting college student, can I say I'd rather my money goes to Ukraine than OpenAI?

Matt (27:04.1)
Right, right.

Shawn (27:04.682)
Yes. Announce it. Announce it loud and clear. Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie (27:08.763)
kind of start a petition.

Matt (27:11.788)
I think the one point that I want to make on this is I believe, I agree with you, Sean, that private individuals, private organizations do a better job of distributing aid than governments do, generally. Generally. But, but, but it's also true that even the LDS charities, when they wanted to do good in countries,

Shawn (27:25.8)
What? Wait, what just happened? What the heck just happened?

Melanie (27:27.035)
Ooh!

Did he just say something pro-private organizations?

Matt (27:40.58)
where they didn't have a foothold, used the US government's pipeline, right? They use the distribution channels that the United States government has set up. And if you combine private aid with US government aid, it has a synergistic effect where it all goes further. So we have a lot of partnerships with the US government, USAID, USAID, right? And private organizations that allow for more good to be done because private groups are working with the United States government.

And ending that is bad for everybody.

Shawn (28:13.642)
So I'm gonna give the points to Matt because I think you're absolutely right. And Melanie, you agree that foreign aid should continue to be given in our interest and for charitable reasons. Do you agree with that Melanie or no? You do. So we all agree with that, Matt, you get the points. You also get the points because you admitted for the first time the truth that government sucks at giving aid and charity. Those were your words. But you also get the

Melanie (28:25.027)
yeah, 100%.

Melanie (28:29.529)
you

Matt (28:35.428)
did not say that. I did not say that. okay. Okay, I'll take the points. Yeah.

Melanie (28:40.655)
Well, I really want to give Sean some points for knowing a source that my dad didn't. So my points go to Sean.

Matt (28:44.366)
Hahaha

Sean's like, what are you talking about? Like every single news station says this. And I said, what is Sean talking about? Sean's talking about recent news.

Melanie (28:51.611)
you

Shawn (28:55.082)
But Matt, one place I'm gonna disagree with you is I don't think Trump is like, his end game here is to withhold aid. Sure, he's gonna divert a lot of that money for his campaign domestically, but I do think for sure the aid will go back in the form of negotiated leverage and that aid is going back. It's going back for sure.

Matt (29:15.556)
You hope, you hope, Sean. So many things you tell me that Trump's planning to do, Trump's gonna do. I say, when are we gonna see this, Sean? He said that he was gonna end that war in Ukraine in 24 hours. He just didn't tell us.

Shawn (29:28.51)
That discussion between you and I has never happened. I don't so many times tell you that Trump is going to do stuff. That's not true.

Matt (29:33.782)
I told you that if Trump became president, Ukraine would lose the war. you said, no, that's not going to happen. Trump's not going to... Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (29:39.956)
Did you really make that claim?

What do you, how do you, there's a tangent, but what do mean, let's bring that up at a later time, because I don't know what you mean by lose the war, but.

Matt (29:47.628)
Yeah, yeah, some other time. Yeah, that's okay. Okay, so my topic is this. A woman in Utah. Yeah, yeah.

Shawn (29:54.12)
Hold on, hold on real quick. Let me just point out maybe a little bit Melanie, just as a voice of warning, your father who does not know how to give a genuine compliment, it's usually backhanded, your compliment to me in points was a little bit fatherly, a little bit, a little bit. You gave me points.

Melanie (30:10.043)
No! No, you can't do this to me. You can't tell me that.

Matt (30:10.244)
Melanie.

Sean is a libertarian. Sean is a libertarian snowflake.

Shawn (30:22.026)
Hahaha!

Melanie (30:22.447)
John, I promise those points were genuine. I promise.

Matt (30:25.624)
haha

Shawn (30:25.886)
Were they genuine? Okay. I thought you were just enjoying seeing your dad have to repent and fact check himself. Okay. All right. I'll take it. Sorry, Melanie.

Matt (30:33.176)
That's a good reason to give you points. That's a good reason to point that out.

Melanie (30:37.275)
Can I just genuinely be proud of you for making my dad repent? Okay.

Matt (30:40.868)
Hahaha

Shawn (30:41.522)
OK, that's true. OK, that's good.

Matt (30:44.172)
Okay, all right. So there was a woman in Utah who took issue with a transgender woman living in her daughter's dorm room and serving as the resident assistant. She said she felt blindsided by the school for not alerting her about her daughter's new suite mate. She went public and now the Utah legislature is considering writing a law that prohibits transgender people from living in dorms that do not match. Prohibits transgender people from living in dorms

that do not match their biological identity, even if it matches their gender identity. So my question is, what is the morally appropriate thing to do in this situation? Melanie, you get to go first, because you're a college student, and maybe you have a transgender roommate in your apartment. And I would like to know now so that I know how to respond.

Melanie (31:33.061)
So.

I think my first opinion is that this college student's mother shouldn't be getting involved. This isn't the mother's case to be taking to the courts because the mother isn't living in a room with someone who's transgender. It's like, it's none of her business. Why does she care? So that's my first take. And also I think people should be able to live in a place that matches their gender identity.

Shawn (31:43.636)
Wow, interesting.

Matt (31:46.626)
Yeah.

Shawn (31:52.08)
Interesting stance, okay, keep going.

Melanie (32:01.657)
because I feel much safer around someone who's allowed to be honest about who they are and what they feel than I do living with someone who is living a lie.

Matt (32:11.788)
Mmm, yeah.

Shawn (32:13.418)
Say that last part again. So, say that last part again.

Melanie (32:18.267)
I would much rather live around someone who's free to be honest about who they are and what they feel than someone who's forced to live a lie.

Shawn (32:24.756)
yeah, I see, I see, I see. Wow, those are takes from Melanie I did not expect.

Matt (32:31.15)
Here's, I asked my son about this. have a son, he's a senior in high school. And I said, I asked him how he would feel about if he found out that one of his roommates was transgender. And he was like, I wouldn't care at all. And then I was like, well, would you feel uncomfortable living with like changing your clothes and all of that stuff with a transgender roommate? And he's like, as he thought about it, he's like, yeah, I guess that would make me a little bit uncomfortable. And I said, okay, you get to choose one of these two scenarios.

Melanie (32:31.301)
Mm.

Matt (32:59.736)
You could either have a transgender roommate who's a bookworm and stays home all the time and isn't very social, or you could have a non-transgender roommate who has a girl in your dorm regularly making out with her all the time. Which would you rather have? And guess what he said, Sean? A transgender roommate, because he thinks it's gross when people are making out in front of other people. That makes him uncomfortable.

Melanie (33:04.951)
you

Shawn (33:25.79)
That's interesting.

Matt (33:26.69)
Yeah, I just think this younger generation is different about transgender stuff. They just don't care. And our generation, Sean, we do care. And I understand why this woman felt upset, but she definitely did the wrong thing going public about this, posting it on social media. The appropriate thing to do if you're mad is you talk to whoever at the dorms and say, can my daughter move to a different suite where the person's not transgender?

Shawn (33:51.35)
I thought that's what she did. I thought it came public because there was some third party ex-cop total creep that was barraging this poor transgender girl with hate stuff. And so she took it public.

Matt (34:05.028)
That happened after the mother went public. The mother went public on social media complaining about it. And so then the, okay, yeah. Yeah, so what do you think, Sean? What should you do as a parent in that situation?

Shawn (34:09.412)
OK.

I didn't, I didn't read that part. Okay.

Shawn (34:20.554)
Well, the question isn't what should the parent do? It's just what morally is the right move in the whole situation, right? Okay. So first of all, I would say this. Look, I'm going to just assume that the motive behind the mother, the daughter, and do we know the name of, we don't know her name.

Matt (34:23.536)
yeah. yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

Matt (34:36.792)
The name of the RA is out there, but I didn't put it in the story. Yeah.

Shawn (34:39.882)
We'll just call her the RA. I'm just gonna assume that the motive, they're all trying to be happy. They're all trying to live their lives. There's nothing really, what's the word, malicious here, nefarious here. I'm gonna just assume that they all have the good intentions. They are just trying to do the right thing and be happy. I have compassion for all the parties concerned. Melanie, how many kids do you have now?

Matt (34:49.186)
Nefarious.

Melanie (35:02.152)
ooh, that's a low blow, Sean.

Shawn (35:03.622)
None. sorry. No, what I mean is, when you have your children, I wonder if you will think differently about this from the perspective of the mother, like the idea of sending your child off for the first time into this world, and finding out that your daughter is sleeping next to who was a biological man. That's a little scary for a parent. That's a little bit scary for a parent.

Matt (35:05.676)
Melanie has no children.

Matt (35:30.02)
But if it's not scary for the college student, why is it scary for the parent?

Melanie (35:33.733)
I guess do we know if it was scary for the college student? Because I imagine if she's talking to her mother about it, she is probably scared.

Shawn (35:33.802)
Well, the college student.

Matt (35:36.516)
Right.

Shawn (35:37.418)
I'm

Matt (35:40.363)
I don't know. People say things to their parents.

Shawn (35:41.95)
Well, I'm just saying, but Matt, I'm saying first off, the perspective of the parent, I think when you have kids, you'll have, don't know, I'm assuming you'll maybe think differently, maybe not. But from the perspective of...

Matt (35:50.796)
I, Sean, I have kids and I don't care at all. I wouldn't care even one little bit.

Shawn (35:56.169)
You wouldn't.

Melanie (35:56.269)
Well, well, counterpoint. How did you react when I told you I was considering living in a house full of dudes?

Matt (36:02.372)
First of all, never said like you shouldn't, right? We had a long conversation where I said, here's the pros, here's the cons, and I trust you to prayerfully make the right decision. Isn't that what I said?

Shawn (36:03.866)
this is sweet.

Melanie (36:15.339)
That is, you handled it very well. But was that your initial reaction or did you have to control yourself for a minute?

Matt (36:22.18)
Listen, I trust you, Melanie. So if you make a decision to live in a house full of guys, then I trust that you're doing what is best for you. I just trust you, that's all. So I wouldn't have any like, I did tell you that guys have hormones and if they see you coming out of the shower, there's gonna be a hormonal reaction. I do think I told you about that sort of stuff, but like, I don't care what you choose. I trust you is what I'm saying.

Melanie (36:24.763)
Thank

Shawn (36:49.855)
watching this.

Matt (36:50.82)
Is that not how you felt I responded Melanie when you said that?

Melanie (36:54.721)
No, I just think if you imagine how you felt in that situation and then imagined if I had told you, hey, this college randomly assigned me to a house full of guys, you probably would have been mad.

Matt (37:06.052)
This is what I will say on this topic. When I was at the University of Kansas, I had friends that were undergraduates that were living in the dorms and I had gone to BYU. So BYU has approved housing, like behavior in the dorms was very regulated. And when I saw the kinds of behaviors that were happening in the dorms at University of Kansas, I said, this is why I want my kids to go to a church school so that I never have to worry about these kinds of things, right? Because

I'm not worried so much about a transgender kid being in my kids dorm room, but I am concerned like people having intercourse in the bed next to my kid as they're trying to sleep. And that stuff happens all the time at college. So like if I have to choose like what is worse, kids having intercourse in the dorms or a transgender person, like to me, I'm more concerned when

Shawn (38:00.262)
That's not the situation here. That's a good point, but that's not the situation here.

Matt (38:05.29)
Sean, you really think that's not happening in the dorms at Utah State University?

Shawn (38:10.076)
I'm saying the topic, the instance that we're discussing, that's not the situation whatsoever.

Matt (38:16.046)
Right, so I'm just trying to explain why I'm not worried about a transgender roommate in a dorm.

Shawn (38:20.074)
So what do you think of this though? My opinion is that from the perspective of the RA, it was a huge mistake not to at least disclose to give, no beforehand, beforehand to be able to do. That's not what I read.

Matt (38:33.208)
she did. She disclosed. Everybody knew. Yeah they didn't hide anything. When you are applying-

Shawn (38:41.93)
Hold on, hold on, hold hold on, hold on. You're saying that the RA went in day one or before this new roommate was had and says, hey, by the way, I'm transgender. I was born a biological male and you're gonna be my roommate. I wanted to disclose that so that you had a choice to live next to myself in this situation or not.

Matt (38:54.168)
I don't know if she...

Matt (39:04.676)
I don't know if she specifically disclosed it to that student, but I do know that the dorms knew that she was transgender and they hired her as transgender. And on the application, when you're applying to live at a dorm at Utah State University, they ask that specific question, would you be bothered by having a transgender roommate? So you can say, yes, I would. And then they will never put you in an apartment with a transgender roommate.

Shawn (39:12.222)
That's my point. Okay, that's my.

Matt (39:32.322)
And so at some point this student or her parents said, don't care.

Shawn (39:37.778)
I don't think you know that you can't state that. I mean, we'd have to really find that out because what the way it was reported in what I read was they didn't know and there was no disclosure. And that's the only mistake. That's the only mistake here, I think in my plan. And it was a huge mistake because it doesn't bode well for any any movement when it makes it look sneaky. It makes it it's unfair. Like if if if the girl

Matt (39:39.192)
No, that's what happens. That's how it is.

Matt (39:44.514)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt (39:58.68)
No, I agree.

Matt (40:04.772)
Do you know what I think happened, Sean? I think that the daughter didn't care, but didn't wanna tell her mother that. And then the mother found out and the mother was upset because they don't do that with students. They don't assign you a transgender roommate unless you've indicated that you're okay with that. They wouldn't do it. It puts people in a bad situation.

Shawn (40:12.062)
How do you know that? How do you know that?

How the crap do you know that?

Shawn (40:29.234)
I don't think those facts are out. I don't think that we can claim that that did or didn't happen. What I read was when they found out is when the mom got involved and that was the problem. And all I'm saying is, I agree with you. Look, if two adults want to decide to live in a dorm room with each other, I don't care. They choose to do so. Yeah, Melanie, if you wanna live with a bunch of guys, by the way, did you do that or did you not do that?

Matt (40:32.525)
No, I know that's

Melanie (40:52.347)
I decided not to.

Matt (40:54.18)
Not yet, not yet.

Shawn (40:56.754)
Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. it doesn't, yeah, but it doesn't matter. You're like, Matt said, we trust you and you're an adult. And if you feel like that's best for your life, do it. The problem is if you didn't, if you, if you were moved, if you were a boy moving into an apartment full of girls and were claiming to be a girl and didn't disclose and then just dropped on everyone, Hey, by the way, by the way, that's problematic. That doesn't bode well for the movement. Right.

Melanie (40:58.649)
Dad's holding out hope.

Shawn (41:25.251)
I think that was the biggest issue here. You have to disclose these kinds of things in order to not get into trouble, I think.

Matt (41:31.172)
Okay, I'm gonna give Melanie the points because for whatever reason she decided to admit to the world that she's considering living in a Threes company situation. She's risking, she's, do know what Threes company is, Melanie?

Melanie (41:35.925)
You

Shawn (41:39.498)
Does she know what the... Do you know what 3's company is? Matt, how would she know what 3's company is?

Melanie (41:39.899)
I

No, I don't.

Matt (41:47.94)
Love you singing the song. Come and knock on our door.

Melanie (41:52.313)
Hehehehehe

Shawn (41:52.918)
It was an old 80s or 70s TV show where two girls were living with a guy and he had to pretend he was gay to not violate their policy at the apartment. And these were adults.

Matt (42:03.192)
The landlord would pop by every so often and he'd be like, yeah, anyhow, he's always trying to investigate.

Melanie (42:08.077)
Yeah, yeah, so the modern equivalent if you want to be hip with the kids, it's called New Girl.

Matt (42:11.754)
Mm-hmm. yeah, I've seen... Okay. Points to Melanie for admitting that she was considering a new girl living situation. We're gonna...

Shawn (42:12.04)
Yeah. OK, good, good, good, good. OK.

Melanie (42:15.621)
where you have a girl living in an apartment full of guys. Yeah.

Shawn (42:19.032)
really?

Melanie (42:24.261)
Come on. Dad, have you ever given serious points?

Matt (42:29.048)
That's it, I think.

Shawn (42:29.835)
Amen. Amen.

Matt (42:32.502)
I actually really want to give myself the points on this one, but I... Okay, we're going to move to the big question. Sean's all geared up for this one.

Shawn (42:35.654)
Now that's the authentic side. the authentic Matt's coming out. When he gives points to himself, it's heartfelt.

Melanie (42:36.219)
There we go.

Shawn (42:48.746)
Shut up, man. You just think you can pick topics. They have the word Elon Musk in it and you think I'm going to take a side. You don't know me.

Melanie (42:53.595)
you

Matt (42:54.764)
I know how much you love Elon Musk. Listener, you can't see this, but Sean's back wall, there's a painting of Elon Musk, and then there's a bookshelf with a single book. It's the biography of Elon Musk. Sean is to Elon.

Shawn (43:02.664)
is not a

Shawn (43:06.676)
Okay, as untrue as that is, there is literally in Matt's office a bust of Lenin.

Matt (43:14.018)
yeah, that's true. And Marks.

Melanie (43:14.479)
You know, Sean, that was my thing. I was gonna bring that up. I guess I can bring up like the Soviet flag instead.

Shawn (43:17.404)
Okay, okay, sorry.

Matt (43:22.826)
yeah, that's right. Elon Musk is to Sean as the space program is to Sam. That's all I'm trying to... Okay. Elon Musk made a surprise appearance during Germany's AFD. AFD is a political party that stands for Alternative für Deutschland, election campaign event in Eastern Germany on Saturday.

Shawn (43:22.858)
Yeah, he marks it.

Shawn (43:28.52)
Not at all, not at all. You wish, cause you think it'll spur a debate. Well, get to the question and let's see if it does.

Matt (43:48.992)
speaking publicly in support of the far right party for the second time in as many weeks. For listeners who may not know, the AFD is the new Nazi party in Germany. And if you listen to his speech, he says in that speech that we need to move on from the past and not worry about what the Nazis may have done or may not have done and it's time to move on and start new things in Germany. So my question is, how should Americans feel

about having a foreigner who supports elements of the Nazi agenda working in an unelected, non-appointed position in the US White House. Should we feel good about that?

Shawn (44:28.2)
Okay, so first off, first off, haven't you, haven't you, if not you liberals learned that by calling people Nazis, it backfires. Don't you see this? The Democrats, the Democrats, the Democrats called Trump a Nazi and the whole world went, that's ridiculous. And they voted for Trump. Putin calls the Ukrainians a Nazi, Nazis. And everyone looks back and goes, this dude's nuts. This is crazy. And now you're doing the same thing. Why do you liberals do that?

Matt (44:30.381)
Yes.

Matt (44:37.358)
the AFD is the Nazi party. are the Nazi... Sean.

my goodness. my goodness.

Matt (44:54.18)
They are the Nazi party. That's what they stand for. Everything about them is a rebirth of the former Nazi party. And they're popular in the regions where the Nazis were popular. So sure.

Shawn (44:57.993)
So.

Shawn (45:01.864)
So because you.

So because you framed the question as you did, and I'm mad at you for this, I naturally have to go do like tons of research on this stupid group to find out actually where they stand. So I guarantee I did more research than you. So I'll tell you what I found. I'll tell you what I found.

Matt (45:14.052)
the AFD. You should be... Oh, okay. Okay. The AFD is probably going to win the next German election in a couple of weeks and the world should be afraid of that possibility. So tell us more about the AFD, the future leaders of Germany. Sean, tell us more.

Shawn (45:30.44)
Well, you could tell us what you found.

Melanie (45:33.595)
Okay.

Shawn (45:35.914)
All right, here's what I found. Here's what I found. There is definitely two very, very sketchy problematic elements of their agenda. And there's 15 that aren't so bad. They're actually quite.

Matt (45:49.316)
That's weird. Were the Nazis the same way? Yes, the Nazis were exactly the same way. You know...

Shawn (45:56.4)
so that qualifies that qualifies like if that's the qualification to be called a Nazi, then every political party is a Nazi because go ahead, Melody.

Matt (46:02.412)
You know the Nazis

Melanie (46:02.585)
Okay, so Sean, how sketchy are these two very sketchy parts of their platform?

Matt (46:05.705)
Tell us the sketchy stuff.

Shawn (46:06.812)
Super sketchy, super sketchy. The first part is they literally like really blatantly no hiding it or saying Islam not allowed. Islam not allowed. The religion of Islam is not allowed. Now it's okay to have Muslim members of our society, but no building of mosques, no Muslim religious leadership can be in our communities.

So it's really, really a strike on freedom of religion. So that in and of itself kills them. go ahead, Melody.

Melanie (46:43.045)
Like that doesn't parallel Nazism to you?

Shawn (46:46.066)
It does that purse does. Yeah. That part does. That part does. That part does. The second problematic part, which is definitely Naziistic is that they don't, they have this weird agenda about the German culture, the German born culture and any multiculturalism is bad. And it has to be German, German, German. Now they don't specifically call it any other cultures, but that's a pretty bad stance. Yeah.

Matt (46:47.012)
Okay.

Melanie (46:47.419)
Okay, glad we're on the same page there.

Matt (47:11.652)
Neither did... Yeah, that's right.

Melanie (47:14.612)
So to make sure we're on the same page, Democrats use the label Nazi a little too much, but in this case it's accurate.

Shawn (47:16.36)
Hahaha.

Shawn (47:22.809)
Well, but these two items out of the 20 are the two problematic ones. you've got 18 other ones that aren't bad. They're not. They're actually good policies. But these two, I agree. These two.

Matt (47:33.549)
Okay, I'm gonna pause you, Sean.

Melanie (47:33.733)
But like, do think they're winning because of the 18 or because of the two?

Matt (47:37.229)
Sean, I'm going to pause you here and I'm going to put you in Elon Musk's spot and knowing what you know about the AFD, they say to you, hey, Sean, come and talk at our rally. What do you say to them?

Shawn (47:41.758)
Yeah.

Shawn (47:48.769)
No, heck no. You say,

Matt (47:49.78)
so Elon Musk, maybe maybe he didn't do as much research as you did before he went and spoke to their rally. Or, or if you listen to what he said, and then that I saw on Inside Edition, that's my favorite news source Inside Edition, they talked to Elon Musk's father, and he's like, Elon Musk was 100 % right and everything that he said at that rally, which was

Melanie (47:50.075)
you

Shawn (47:56.33)
I hope that's the case because what are you doing? I agree.

Melanie (47:57.56)
Thank

Shawn (48:12.702)
Yeah, but hang on though. the things that he said were simply, think, I've got it here. I think there's too much focus on past guilt in Germany. And we need to move beyond that. Children should not feel guilty for the sins of their parents or their great-great-grandparents. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

Matt (48:25.794)
No. Yes there is if you're talking to the Nazis. Yes there is something wrong with that.

Shawn (48:28.999)
What?

No, he's not. He's not talking to the Nazis. He doesn't. I don't think he believes they're Nazis. He's talking to the German people and saying,

Matt (48:35.812)
He's talking to the AFD, Sean. You just told me the two problematic positions the party has. You don't speak to a party that says we don't want Muslims and the German race is superior to all other races and say, enough with this Nazi guilt.

Shawn (48:45.159)
Hahaha

Shawn (48:56.456)
Okay, all right, I'm with you. I don't know that it doesn't do well to just say this is the Nazi party because they don't, I know what you're going to say. Okay, but these two elements, sure. think Elon Musk is an idiot for doing that. Absolutely 100%.

Matt (49:00.42)
footless.

Matt (49:14.072)
Okay, but the big question is, should he have a spot in the White House? He's not an American, he's not a member of our country. Do we want him in the White House? So we're gonna cut all foreign aid. We're not gonna give you guys aid, but we will send Elon Musk around the world to speak at rallies. When he's done with your rally, he's gonna come back to the White House to help us figure out government efficiency. Is that really the kind of person we want in the White House, in an unelected, unappointed position?

where it's just earshot of Donald Trump.

Shawn (49:44.968)
I mean, it's the same question that every administration gets asked. They put people in place that half the people don't like. In a position of Doge, where he's literally just going like as a businessman to try and find waste and eliminate waste, totally fine with that. As an advocate for all these other topics and doing this with Jeremy, no, what an idiot. Like, why would he do this? It seems so stupid, but I don't care that he's in for Doge.

Matt (50:10.436)
What you say, Melanie?

Melanie (50:15.835)
I'm not gonna lie, I didn't know Elon Musk wasn't an American citizen. So.

Matt (50:20.036)
He might be American citizen, but he's from South Africa. Another country with a check. Yeah, that's right. They don't have any history of racism in South apartheid. It was good for everybody. Why would we worry about somebody, a white man from South Africa running around the world talking about, don't be bothered by the sins of your past. That's right. We want a South African, a white South African telling the world about how it's not our fault what our forefathers did.

Shawn (50:23.74)
What does that matter,

Melanie (50:24.891)
Yeah, dad, are you anti-south Africans?

Melanie (50:38.363)
Thank

Shawn (50:40.074)
Let's see.

Melanie (50:48.781)
Yeah, I don't know. I feel like the question really shouldn't be whether Elon Musk as a non-Native American should be in the White House. I don't give a crap if the people in the White House are Native Americans or Native US citizens or not. But I do think we should take issue with the fact that someone from our country is going overseas and saying we should move on from the Holocaust. Because I think even as citizens of the United States, we shouldn't move on from and forget the Holocaust.

Shawn (50:55.626)
Ha

Matt (50:59.074)
are US citizens.

Shawn (51:02.857)
Really?

Matt (51:10.318)
Mm-hmm.

Melanie (51:18.457)
I think it's an important thing to remember.

Matt (51:18.55)
Okay. I appreciate that the Germans remember it. I appreciate that they kept the concentration camps as memorials to tell future generations and warn them about what could happen. And I do think it's a bad message to say, don't worry about that. Don't feel guilt about that. Cause I wish we would feel more guilt about the things that we supported in the past, our ancestors.

Shawn (51:41.562)
I've heard him talk about the Holocaust and Jews in the past and I don't know that by saying you as German people need to stop beating yourself up and move on and look forward is the same as saying forget the Holocaust. I don't know that that's what he's saying and by the way he is a US citizen, has been since 2002. I don't know if that's the same thing.

Melanie (52:01.421)
Okay. Hey, he and I are citizenship buddies.

Matt (52:04.42)
That's right. You don't find it problematic, Sean, that the first area Elon Musk finds to cut waste in the federal government is diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. You don't think that's at all problematic that he says, where is the waste in government? it's people who are hired for diversity reasons. That's the waste in government.

Shawn (52:06.11)
hahahaha

Shawn (52:21.075)
I don't... I don't at all. I don't at all.

I don't at all and here's why. I have a very close friend who worked in that, he worked in a department whose job was to interview the people within the DEA departments of the government to take down both sides of any case that gets brought.

And it was so embarrassingly wasteful. All of it, all of it. Like, for example, for example, uh, for two years, I got to hear, we go to the gym and I got to hear story after story after story after story. And it was embarrassing. It was embarrassing, Matt. Like, like what that department allowed by its nature was, for example, one person was suing the government because they didn't provide a mobile fridge in her.

Matt (52:55.588)
It can't all be that way.

Shawn (53:19.53)
office that she could tote around with her so that she could eat when she gets lightheaded or gets like it like the religious waste and this this case goes on for years and years and years absolutely wasteful so no I have no problem getting rid of that wasn't what happened no one fired her she was suing over the no no

Matt (53:31.586)
And so you're gonna fire her? You're gonna fire her?

Matt (53:37.166)
Well, that's what they did. Right. What I'm saying is that one of the first things they did was everybody who was hired under the diversity, equity and inclusion program, they put them all on.

Shawn (53:50.034)
Matt, you realize that DEI is one of the reasons that the American people fired Biden and brought Trump in to get rid of that. That's the reason the American people wanted him in office.

Matt (53:59.556)
Okay, but-

But that's not wasteful spending. That's government waste, right? I understand that there are Americans that don't like DEI, but that doesn't mean that you say, we're going to fire all of you when you don't even know if they're doing a good job or a bad job.

Shawn (54:07.466)
It is hugely good.

Shawn (54:17.138)
If the department itself is unwanted by the American people, then it's wasteful. So that's why it's not wasteful.

Matt (54:21.452)
No, no, the department, was no department, right? Every under the Biden administration, he said, when you're hiring new people, we would like you to consider enhancing diversity, equity, and inclusion in the federal government. And what, what Trump said was everybody who was hired with that kind of, like since that policy went into place, you're all on administrative leave and you're all going to be potentially fired. So that's.

Shawn (54:49.236)
Yeah, the Office of Diversity and Inclusion spread out across parts of the US government. That's one of the things that the American people said, that's not fair, it's racist, it doesn't make sense, and it's wasteful. more than half of the US country disagrees with you.

Matt (54:56.708)
Yeah.

Matt (55:02.468)
But it's not racist.

Okay, so if it was racist to hire them for that reason, it's gotta be racist to fire them for that reason.

Shawn (55:18.056)
Well, two wrongs sometimes make a right is what you say.

Matt (55:19.812)
Sean, that's so awesome. I really want that to be the last word of the podcast. That is so good. I just think it looks bad when you have an individual like Elon Musk so close in the White House supporting initiatives that look pretty racist. Like as a country, I think we can do better than that. Yeah.

Shawn (55:25.574)
No!

Shawn (55:39.754)
It looks really bad. It does look really bad. Yeah, I don't know what the heck's he thinking. But you know what, again, as a rolling in whatever Trump's administration in Doge, that makes sense to me. I like that. But yeah, what are you doing? But I don't know, man. Look at the rest of his life. I don't expect him to be a beacon in all these areas of life. I don't expect him to be a wise person, especially socially. He's very kind of socially...

Matt (56:01.688)
then he shouldn't

Matt (56:08.196)
then we shouldn't have them in government, that's all I'm saying. Just because a person's good at business doesn't mean they're good at everything they do. Look at-

Shawn (56:14.314)
But when your job in government is to eliminate waste, that's a government, that's a business kind of that you want a business person to do that and it's great.

Matt (56:17.784)
He, it's not, you don't, you don't Sean. I'm telling you right now what he's doing is not good. It's not the people, whatever they call the deep state, what they've done so far is fire all of the people who would be more loyal to the Trump administration. Those are the people that are leaving and the people that are going to be left are the union workers who have contracts. They're going to dig in their heels and all they're going to be left with is the deep state.

Shawn (56:46.088)
Melody, do you agree with Matt or do you think that cutting efficiency and having someone focused on eliminating a lot of waste, like millions and millions of dollars of waste in departments that maybe are legacy departments? By the way, that was one thing that Milton Friedman would always say is any government entity is self-preserving. So whether it's needed or not, that's my job. I'm going to make sure that this government agency persists and persists because I get paid, that's my job.

So there's no such thing as an altruistic government agency that's gonna go, okay, we did our job, we're not needed anymore, see you later. So it is this bloated government.

Melanie (57:23.673)
do think it's indicative that one of the first steps that was taken to reduce waste was to fire people who are traditionally discriminated against. I think there are probably a lot of other places they could have looked to eliminate waste first. And the fact that this was the first one, I don't know, smells kind of fishy to me, but I think so.

Shawn (57:43.902)
The DEI stuff?

Matt (57:47.746)
like that. Okay, Melanie, you get to have the last word.

Melanie (57:50.709)
No, please don't give me the last word.

Shawn (57:52.372)
No!

Matt (57:53.028)
You already had the last word that was it and listeners, thank you so much for joining us Melanie's gonna be a regular guest on our show

Shawn (58:01.618)
Yes!

Melanie (58:02.573)
Unless you guys don't want me here. You can just like, send it into the mail bag. Be like, Melanie sucks.

Shawn (58:04.596)
We want you here. No, we know exactly what our listeners are gonna say. We love Melanie. We need that voice. Get her a better mic. That's what they're gonna say.

Melanie (58:13.116)
ouch.

Matt (58:13.632)
that's true. Yeah, we can get her a better mic. That's fine. Melanie's new at this. Hey everybody, thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you again next week. Have a great day.

Shawn (58:18.442)
We'll get you a better mic.

Melanie (58:18.447)
We can do that.