Matt (00:01.007)
Hi everybody and welcome back to another exciting episode of the RM slash Latter-day Lens podcast with Sean and Matt. And we have with us today a special guest. His name is Mark. We're gonna get to Mark in just a second because I wanna introduce him a little bit, talk to him a little bit more. But first, Sean and I will just kind of start. So Sean, in the mail bag, one listener who actually represents many of our listeners wrote in and said,

Marc Hallacker (00:27.233)
You

Matt (00:29.891)
You said it was Sam's last episode on the title of the episode, but you didn't explain why. We love Sam. Well, we do too, right Sean? I love Sam so much, yes.

Shawn (00:39.023)
Do we? Do we love Sam? I don't know. Do we? I do too. I do too. I love Sam so, much.

Matt (00:45.677)
Yeah. I'm sad to have him gone. how do we explain Sam's departure from the podcast, Sean?

Shawn (00:52.271)
Well, I would say Sam is one of the wittiest, smartest, most amazing men I know. And we have deep, deep bond from our, our mission experience. So many stories from the MTC and on, but I think the demands of capitalism, the demands of his professional life are taking him away from us, I think is what's happening, right?

Marc Hallacker (01:05.773)
You

Matt (01:14.263)
Yeah, I think so you were telling me this one Sean about podcasts that like 90 % of podcasts end after around 100 episodes. Is that right?

Shawn (01:22.495)
The statistics show that if you stick with it two to three years, it can really, really launch, but 90 % of them bail out before, yeah, before, uh-huh. Yeah.

Matt (01:31.975)
but I hit that point. I think it's just because life is tough. Like if we had started this podcast before the pandemic, I know that once the pandemic hit, I would have quit because my life was just, it was just in a place where I couldn't possibly have set aside time to do a podcast.

Shawn (01:42.85)
You

Shawn (01:49.647)
slash slash you're a quitter.

Matt (01:52.335)
I don't know. don't know. It's just sometimes there's things in your life that are super important and a podcast. If I guess if it's your only source of revenue in life, then yeah, you got to do the podcast, right? But if you have other demands in life, sometimes you just have to put that stuff first and then the podcast, you know, you just can't do it anymore.

Marc Hallacker (02:00.171)
.

Shawn (02:10.681)
Yeah. Yeah. I think his professional life is demanding and is taking him away from us. think someday we'll convert him back.

Matt (02:20.419)
Yeah, yeah, Sam, we told you before there's always a seat for you at the podcast if you decide to come back and if things settle down, we'd always be happy to have you back. But that means we're going to change the name back from the RM podcast, right? Because for a lot of listeners, they say, this is the RM like about missionaries who are companions on a mission. And it won't be like that anymore, Sean, because we were but Mark who's with us wasn't didn't serve a mission with us.

Marc Hallacker (02:29.387)
.

Shawn (02:43.055)
Well, we were mission companions.

Marc Hallacker (02:44.786)
You

Matt (02:48.947)
And Melanie who joined us, she didn't serve a mission with us. So we'll have other people on from time to time that didn't serve missions with us. So we can't have that be our brand what we do.

Shawn (02:57.241)
Well, I'm going to read back, back when we originally had this idea and we discussed what is it, what is it? I'm going to read real quick kind of our first notes. said, we were talking about, look, there are a bunch of people out there who, who really do want to reinforce the LDS worldview about current events and about what's happening in the news and about politics. And they want it without hate. They want it without anger and they want it without contention. And so we kind of decided, well, you know what? We called it the latter day lens because

We wanted real LDS perspectives on these current events who prioritize, I think we talked about it, prioritizes faith in Christ over doctrines, over politicians, doctrines of like men, doctrines of politics, right? That was kind of our goal, Matt, right?

Matt (03:44.237)
Yeah, yeah, I think that often people connect politics with religion in ways that maybe the two aren't intended to be connected with each other and you feel like you have to agree, like if somebody comes to church with you and you don't agree with them about politics, you think that maybe like sometimes it just impacts a person's faith in the church and in the Lord Jesus Christ. And so I think the priority for us is to say, let's talk about current events, let's talk about what's going on.

let's do it in a way that builds faith rather than tears down faith and sometimes we all agree on things and sometimes we don't all agree on things which

Marc Hallacker (04:19.936)
.

Shawn (04:23.117)
And that's okay, right? Because we all share a common faith and we're all trying our hardest to understand what God intends, how God, what is the lens through which God intends us to look? Which is why he gives us scripture, it's why he gives us prophets, right? They guide us and they help us to know. So yeah, I loved Matt in the beginning that the, I don't, whenever I slip into or see my friends look through, look at life's current events through the lens of the Republican Party. No dig on Mark.

Marc Hallacker (04:48.807)
wait.

Shawn (04:51.919)
or the democrat party no dig on that

Matt (04:52.911)
Mark for sure doesn't Mark for sure does not do that. And I don't do that. He's here. He's just no so this is exactly why I want to have Mark on the podcast because Mark is one of the most faithful members of the church I've ever met. I met Mark when he was a student at BYU-Idaho in political science, but that was maybe like 10 years ago or something like that. I don't know. I don't want to like date Mark but

Shawn (04:56.035)
Good, I was just getting you to perk up Mark, I just wanted to make sure you're still listening to us.

Matt (05:19.875)
but like I've seen him consistently. Mark, yeah, go ahead, Mark.

Marc Hallacker (05:23.782)
Well, you're married, so you definitely don't want to...

Matt (05:25.487)
That's right. So Mark consistently puts faith over all other things in his life and yet he sees current events through a very different perspective than I do. And so I think that it's perfect to have Mark join us as a host on the podcast because he and I see things and politics differently. We see current events differently, but both of us share the same faith. And in fact, Mark was just telling me about the guy that baptized him. Mark tell

Tell us real fast, how is it that you became a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Marc Hallacker (06:00.486)
I was baptized.

Matt (06:01.931)
Hahaha

Marc Hallacker (06:04.207)
I was working at a grocery store in Florida and became friends with a fellow named Dennis and I tried to save him from the Mormons and then he baptized me.

Shawn (06:12.845)
Wow. Wow. How long ago, Mark? How old were you?

Matt (06:14.636)
Yeah. Mark.

Marc Hallacker (06:17.894)
I was 20 so I was back in ought 7 and met the missionaries Tuesday, got baptized Saturday and my first time at church got confirmed.

Shawn (06:25.475)
Wow, holy moly. How was, yeah. I can't wait to go deeper into that story, man.

Matt (06:26.56)
Awesome. Yeah.

I know. But seriously, yeah, and like, ever since I've known him, like, because Mark served a mission. And ever since I've known him, like Mark is just faithful. He, he believes in the Book of Mormon almost as much as you do, Sean, almost as much. Hey, hey, Mark, this is a test. Have you ever heard of a man named Gazalem in the Book of Mormon?

Marc Hallacker (06:55.012)
I have prepared the stones for my servant Gazelum.

Matt (06:58.18)
See

Shawn (06:59.017)
my goodness, Mark. You and Madda, the two of you who have that memorized, I had to like remember and study it and bring up those words. You know gazalem or gazalem in the stone? So I bring, you know, it's funny, Mark, is we, a couple of topics have come up about how in politics or just in life, in secular life, the scriptures frame it as,

Marc Hallacker (07:09.634)
Okay, so

Matt (07:10.734)
Yeah.

Shawn (07:24.781)
When people do things in the dark, do the secret works in the dark, and then that manifests itself, that causes problems, and the Lord really doesn't like that in scripture. And so the purpose of Gazalim Stone was to reveal to this, I don't know if he was just a prophet or if he was a king or what he was, but it would reveal to him these secret works. Wow, you know that that is.

Matt (07:46.947)
Yeah, Mark's familiar with that story. Okay, well, Mark, welcome to the podcast. We hope you'll feel free to share your thoughts and say the things that you think. And listeners, we hope you like Mark as much as I do. Okay, so here's our first topic. So the Salt Lake Tribune has a story out this week about why a sizable number of faculty members at BYU are afraid. In the article and on the podcast, the Tribune discusses this topic with former faculty members

Shawn (07:50.393)
That's amazing.

Matt (08:16.471)
and only cites anonymous current faculty member sources. My question is, should faithful Latter-day Saints be concerned about BYU faculty members' possible fear about policies that require them to agree with church policies? Now, listen, I'm a faculty member at BYU-Idaho, and I don't know if I shared this, but I interviewed at BYU in October. So I'm familiar with what that process is like, but...

Shawn (08:31.663)
You

Shawn (08:40.665)
Yes.

Matt (08:44.547)
I'll share my thoughts at the after you guys go first, but.

Shawn (08:47.247)
There's not many things that would make me happier than Matt, you teaching at BYU Provo. That would be just pure joy to me. Our time at BYU Provo, we lived at the Glenwood and it was like a magic time. We met our wives, my kids go to BYU. You teaching there is just, the thought is pure joy.

Matt (08:57.933)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (09:06.007)
I mean, but I met Mark at BYU-Idaho. BYU-Idaho is a pretty great place. Well, so tell me from you guys' perspective, is this something that you do you think that it's good that BYU faculty members are scared? Or do you think?

Marc Hallacker (09:10.526)
I used to be.

Shawn (09:11.747)
hahahaha

Shawn (09:21.497)
Do you want to go first, Mark, or do want me to go?

Marc Hallacker (09:24.074)
Sure, I'd be happy to. I think it's fantastic. You have section 135, verse 7 talks about, innocent blood of Joseph and Hiram is a broad seal affixed to Mormonism that cannot be rejected by any court on earth. So, with that being the case, why would there be professors at a school that comes from that church who teach against that church or have a problem

swearing fealty to that jerk.

Matt (09:55.159)
Yeah, yeah, I understand that. Is that what you think, Sean?

Shawn (09:58.051)
I mean, that's kind of common sense, right? anyone applying to BU knows that it's owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They know that it's a private school. They know that there are standards. But, you know, honestly, I think the criticism is fine, right? Like this is really in the LDS World News, this Salt Lake Tribune. What's her name, Matt? Peggy, Pam? Peggy Fletcher Stack, right? And it's known that the source, you know, Salt Lake Tribune is very,

Matt (10:21.305)
Peggy Fletcher Stack.

Shawn (10:27.671)
very much so anti-religion, anti-church, isn't it? It always has been kind

Matt (10:32.143)
It was founded that way. I don't know that it's still that way It's hard to find an audience if you're anti if you're a Salt Lake Tribune. You can't be too anti in Utah

Shawn (10:35.502)
I mean, they...

Shawn (10:40.267)
Now they make their living on being the counter voice to the church, don't they?

Matt (10:43.586)
okay.

Marc Hallacker (10:44.902)
Yeah, they're pretty anti-still.

Shawn (10:47.087)
Yeah, but the way I say it, Matt, BYU is like the latter day lens, right? They say, let's look at the world, not through the lens of what secular leadership or any other group or political party or manmade group says. Let's try to teach the students to look through the lens of the gospel of Jesus Christ and make sense of the world through that lens, right?

Matt (10:47.255)
Okay. Well.

Matt (11:13.657)
So there's, yeah.

Shawn (11:14.819)
And because it's a private school, they can do that. However, there are laws, right? There are anti, like if you're looking to hire someone, there's anti-discrimination laws, right, that are based.

Matt (11:24.889)
They can get around those because of their mission statement. Yeah. They're allowed to ask questions in their hiring process, in the ecclesiastical side. like faculty members can, but they're allowed to say, they're allowed by federal law to like, to say, if you have a certain position on this issue, we will choose not to hire you. And it doesn't violate federal law because of their mission as a church school.

Shawn (11:29.806)
what I mean.

Shawn (11:49.159)
So I think as I understand the law, as long as they don't say we're not hiring you because of the religion you belong to, then it's okay.

Matt (11:56.825)
They, but they, no they actually can do that at BYU and BYU-Idaho. They actually can do that.

Shawn (12:02.489)
So what I read on their page, not on their page, what I read was they openly state that they prefer to hire individuals that are active members of the LDS church and hold valid temple recommends. And while it's not ideal, BYU can still hire individuals who are not members of the church, but they would be expected to adhere to the university's religious standards. But the legal restriction would be they cannot discriminate based on religion, meaning they can't deny employment solely because someone's not LDS.

Marc Hallacker (12:04.193)
Okay.

Matt (12:20.621)
Yeah.

Matt (12:29.881)
Well, so there's two aspects of this that I wonder what you guys think about this. Okay, so the first aspect of this is as a person who's already a faculty member of a church university in the most recent general conference Dieter, what is it? F. Uchtdorf Dieter F. Uchtdorf. Yeah. He said that as part of our faith journey, there are going to be times that we encounter things that cause us to doubt and it's okay to have times of doubt.

Marc Hallacker (12:46.401)
Peter.

Shawn (12:46.493)
F

Matt (12:59.361)
And we should just struggle through that because he says something like, faith isn't faith unless it's challenged in some ways. So when you face challenges to your faith, that can actually help strengthen your faith. So then there has to be space for a member of the church who's a faculty member at one of the church schools to have a crisis of faith and to emerge stronger on the other end. So one of the fears faculty members have is if I have this crisis of faith,

I'm leaving it out of the classroom, let's say, right? I'm not gonna share it with my students, that would be inappropriate. But can I have a crisis of faith, share that with my bishop, and still remain a faculty member at BYU? It's frightening for some people to know that a bishop could, like if I lose my temple recommend, I have two weeks to get it back or I'm fired. Right, so for some people that says, they say, I should have space to have these crises of faith in my personal life without worrying about losing my job.

Shawn (13:57.69)
Before you get to your second point, can I ask you question about that?

Matt (14:00.557)
Yeah, this is the, I want to talk about this one first and then we'll talk about the other one.

Shawn (14:03.929)
So from what I've been studying and reading, there's really this, Mark, I love it when Matt, he rubs his eyes like a two year old and he just rubbed his eye. I love it.

Marc Hallacker (14:05.658)
You

Matt (14:12.367)
I just have something in my eye.

Shawn (14:16.271)
Really, as I've studied this, Matt, right now, this current article is really only about one thing. It's about the marriage, family and gender. It's real.

Matt (14:26.095)
That's just because that's just because that's how she chose to frame the article. I've I know people at BYU and BYU Idaho. They're not afraid of that. Although there is, I understand why people would be afraid on that particular issue, but broadly the fear is because because the church, I know this for a fact, church headquarters has now software that scrapes my social media that looks at everything I do online and they collect all of that information.

Shawn (14:53.251)
And is that out of, so what do you think is the motive there? they going, Matt Miles has a lot of influence over a lot of LDS kids, and a lot of LDS kids are finding their way, and what we want is for our university to expand faith in Jesus Christ and the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. So if Matt shows evidence of believing in or preaching other things, then we have to red flag that, is that what that is?

Matt (15:19.733)
Nobody knows nobody. They have never told us that they're doing that. I just happen to have like on all of my social media stuff, I have ways of tracking who's going there and what they're doing. And so I just happen to know that the church headquarters, I don't know who church headquarters regularly looks at my profile stuff and scrapes all of my public persona and collects that data on me.

Shawn (15:40.655)
Okay, so some people are gonna look at that and feel like, that's weird and creepy, but I'm gonna defend that. Look, if I publish stuff, I publish to the public content, then why wouldn't I as an employer or as a family member, right? We do it all the time. We scrape everyone's content to see what's going on in their life. Is there anything wrong with doing that? I don't think there is. If I don't want people to look at my public content, then I won't publish anything, right? I won't publish that which I don't want people to scrape.

Marc Hallacker (16:11.528)
I'd say the little wiggle room of sorts on both sides because what's the biggest core of BYU and what makes church schools different is what Brigham Young said is don't even teach arithmetic without the spirit.

Matt (16:11.727)
But yeah, go ahead, Mark.

Marc Hallacker (16:25.547)
Could you be having a faith crisis but you do still have the spirit? Well, God bless, get on it. And any secular job, you get on there and complain about my job, my boss, this, that, the other. Well, let there be ramifications, why not? But, you know, if you're just trying to negotiate the faith but you still have the spirit, eh, I have no qualms.

Matt (16:48.057)
So how do you know though, right? How do you know if the person is actually teaching by the Spirit through their faith? So that's, I think that's the fear. The fear is who's making those decisions and why don't they tell us? Like, I agree with you, Mark. Like, as long as you can still teach by the Spirit, that's fine, but we need to know how we would be judged by that. Who decides and how do they decide? And if it's...

Marc Hallacker (17:11.326)
If you're communism, then you don't have the spirit.

Matt (17:16.441)
You and I both know that's not true. We've I've heard you teach communism with the spirit. Okay, so then here's the other side is it makes it very hard to hire faithful members of the church who are also awesome in their field, because the experience I had in the interview process alone at BYU was multiple days.

Shawn (17:23.087)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (17:41.615)
And I'm more used to this because I'm a BYU Idaho and BYU Idaho has been doing it like this for a long time. But I had to interview not just with the faculty members in the department. I had to also present my research to the department. I had to do a separate teaching presentation to the department. Then I had to interview with the Dean of the college, which is an unusual, a vice president, which is an unusual, but I also had to interview with the president of BYU and a general authority. And all of that stuff.

takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of, and if you're in like, if you're just generally like an active member of the church who's interviewing for a job at other schools, it's not as onerous a process. And so what it does is it, makes it so that people who are faithful members of the church and are also really good scholars are not as interested in working at BYU because they say, it's really hard to get a job and it's not for sure I can keep the job because what if something happens down the road?

And so, so then that does like affect like your BYU is going to drop in its academic ranking. It's not going to be thought of as as good of a school because you're not going to be hiring the best members of the church that you possibly could.

Shawn (18:53.487)
Is that anecdotal or do you really think that the interview process turns off high quality professors who are faithful in the church?

Marc Hallacker (18:53.616)
Right.

Okay.

Matt (19:03.471)
Well, I know what it was like for myself and I'm already at a church school and I didn't love it. And I know, and I have really good friends who are very active in the church who do not want to go to BYU in part because of the interview process, but in part because some of that other stuff.

Shawn (19:07.181)
Yeah. Well, but let me.

Shawn (19:18.787)
But couldn't you also argue the opposite? Right? The scriptures say the mysteries of God are unfolded to those who diligently seek Him. And that process you just described seems like a very diligent, I mean, they're being very diligent to try and qualify Matt Miles to see if he is the type of professor who's not only gonna teach, which you are very expert in and you are such a good teacher in, but you're also a faithful member and you're gonna build the faith of kids. To me,

Matt (19:31.641)
Sure.

Marc Hallacker (19:34.026)
Okay.

Shawn (19:48.235)
I like that it's such a diligent process that they're weeding out or they're qualifying so many good professors. I hope they're being diligent. I'd rather they're diligent.

Matt (19:57.487)
But you're... Go ahead, Mark.

Marc Hallacker (19:59.39)
But well, and we could be looking at the very foundation of what is teaching. Is it just, I've done all this research, so let me just do a brain dump at you, or at least let me teach you how to research. Because then, as long as we have good researchers, we don't need the best, brightest scholar per se, we just need a good researcher who knows how to teach how to research by the spirit, and let the students become the experts in the best of the best. BYU falls, let them fall, they fell anyway.

Matt (20:26.233)
But in sports, right in athletics, they certainly want to recruit the best and the brightest. And, and there are sometimes, I don't know, it seems like in a lot of, it seems like in some ways you want BYU to be the flagship university that's that represents the church as like the best that we can be. And, and in some ways this approach risks that. And I, mean, if you guys are fine with it.

Shawn (20:48.739)
I don't know, Matt. I mean, you have obviously the real-time experience, but what you described encourages me that they're trying to find the best of the best.

Matt (20:57.209)
But I know really good scholars who are really faithful members of the church who are not applying to BYU.

Shawn (21:04.235)
Why, because it's gonna be a harder process? Come on, you wimps. What's wrong with you in academia, Matt? What's wrong with you guys? Go do the hard thing, man. Come on, go start a business and you'll realize how easy it is to interview five times. Come on. Geez, how good are you if you can't even handle a couple interviews?

Marc Hallacker (21:08.208)
And

Matt (21:23.265)
Well, and here's the other part of it. Like you need to know that the institution has your back because once you're at a church school, everything you do becomes like fodder for people out there who want to complain. So I don't know if I've told you this before, but I was running a survey in April about for my book that's coming out about religion and politics. And somebody who was taking the survey was like, Hey, a professor at BYU Idaho shouldn't be asking me these questions. And so they wrote to the president of my university.

complaining about what I was doing. And then, you know, thankfully the president of the university had my back and said, hey, leave him alone. What he's doing is just fine. But people aren't sure that that's always going to be the response, depending on the question, depending on the situation, there's fear that like, what if I put a pride flag up in my yard? What is the university going to do to me as a response to that? Or like,

Shawn (22:14.799)
Hang on, but why, okay, go ahead Mark.

Marc Hallacker (22:14.836)
R-

Well, as they're saying, they could rain hellfire down if you put the pride flag, but that's not so much the university as much as the angels, so.

Matt (22:20.684)
You

But you look right like I have close family members who are transgender. I have close friends who are gay and if I choose to hang a pride flag to let them know that I love and support them, it's not a statement about church policy, but some people might see it that way and they might write a letter to a president of a university who also sees it that way and then suddenly my job is in danger because I was doing something to try to support my friends.

Shawn (22:23.951)
Hahaha

Matt (22:51.801)
You don't want to lose people, right?

Shawn (22:53.282)
Yeah, no, I see what you're saying. there's also, like, so we were just, we live in California, but we were just driving through Provo a couple days ago. And we were looking for housing for my son, who's gonna be back from his mission. And it was fascinating to me to look at the symbols that kids are putting up to preach who they are and what they believe in. I saw all kinds of stuff from just sports focused to religion focused.

I didn't see any the, I didn't see any pride flags, I didn't see any political statements. you mean no one's there?

Matt (23:23.127)
Well, it's because it's not June right now, Sean. Wait till June.

Marc Hallacker (23:24.293)
Yes.

Matt (23:28.973)
No, June is Pride Month. So you hang up your flag in June.

Shawn (23:31.317)
well, my.

Marc Hallacker (23:33.801)
In June it looks like a unicorn vomited all over Utah County.

Matt (23:37.283)
Yeah

Shawn (23:37.667)
Does it? I've never seen that. Does it really?

but only for one month.

Matt (23:44.419)
Well, cause it's pride month, right? So that's when you, if you don't want to like cause fights with your ward.

Shawn (23:47.791)
Okay, but why did I see all kinds of other religious symbols up, not in a designated month that someone's supposed to celebrate those symbols, yet it showed a lot of kids and people using symbols and using, I don't know, flags or whatever to make a statement. Is it not a kind of a clear way to show yourself? Look, the reason I said in the beginning that...

This issue is mainly over marriage, family, and genders because I think that's what it is. That's the one issue that many people are having.

Matt (24:20.375)
No, it's... I don't think that that's... It changes is what I'm saying, right? 20 years ago it was communism. You have the wrong position on communism, you could get in trouble. Like it changes. Race...

Shawn (24:32.539)
But what I'm but what I'm saying, but today's trendy or important social topic is that, and honestly, Matt, I've looked at a lot of the interviews of people who have responded to this, old professors, people who are anti, some who are not, and honestly, what they're all saying is this. Once I learned that the church was going to put their foot in the sand and really go in on family, and the gender issues, I had to leave, I had to leave.

And that's like, okay, yeah, the church is clear where they stand on that today. And it is a sensitive social issue, but I heard at least five interviews of ex-Boe professor saying, that's the reason I left. And that's free market there, right? That's okay. You can, you don't like it, leave.

Marc Hallacker (25:16.266)
Well.

Matt (25:18.605)
Yeah, or not get hired, I guess. Go ahead, Mark.

Marc Hallacker (25:21.904)
And then there's the other side of things, because if we're so worried about the faculty, let's also remember the students, because I have a friend, his sister, one of the most faithful you could imagine in every way, not quite Molly Mormon, but the better version of it, whatever you want to call it. But she was solid. She goes to BYU and the professors inculcate her with feminism, feminism, feminism, and she starts finding issues with the church because, feminism and the patriarchy and liberation.

Now she doesn't wear garments. Her marriage is okay, but it used to be solid. It was in the temple. And now it's like, she doesn't really go to the temple with me, but we're still married. And a lot of it goes back to those professors.

Matt (26:04.333)
You think it was the BYU professors that drove her away from the church?

Marc Hallacker (26:07.997)
I would say they were a large factor because it's one of my BYU-Idaho experiences. I don't accept communism, but I had a professor who was like, communism is great. I'm a Marxist. I was like, well, if it's a BYU-Idaho professor, it must be fine. It wasn't Brother Miles. Don't worry. could name who, but we already talked about it earlier. it's that authority. just go, well, sure, because that's what happens with Monica Lewinsky.

Shawn (26:27.257)
Ha ha!

Matt (26:30.799)
Yeah.

Marc Hallacker (26:37.506)
you're in charge, I guess. Okay.

Matt (26:40.163)
Yeah, no, it's true. do. I do have to think a lot about what I say in classes and how I frame things because you're right, Mark. There is a higher bar there, right? Like students take what you say as a faculty member with greater authority than they might have a faculty member at a different school.

Shawn (26:59.225)
So I think I'm gonna give Mark the points, because it's his first topic. He brought in two scriptures. He's definitely saying, look, well, I won't put the words in your mouth. Maybe I'll give me a quarter of a point, because I'm saying that I like that strict process. I like to know that the church is really paying attention to who's teaching my kids at the religious institution. And let's face it, that's the only reason I want my kids to go there, is because it is a religious institution. That's the paradigm through which I want my kids to learn about math and science and

Matt (27:04.431)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (27:10.223)
You

Shawn (27:28.79)
social issues and political science.

Marc Hallacker (27:31.268)
Allahumma'ar.

Matt (27:31.343)
But don't you... but don't you guys also want people who know their fields to teach that stuff too?

Shawn (27:38.509)
Yeah, but I know you're not saying that BYU professors don't know their fields. I know you're not saying that. You're a BYU professor and you love and you're the best political scientist I know, Matt, the nerdiest and best that I know.

Marc Hallacker (27:38.608)
No,

Matt (27:43.639)
It's a risk. No, I know.

Matt (27:49.231)
Alright. Well, then I'll give you the point, Sean, because you were so nice to me. Makes me feel good inside. Okay, next topic. this Gallup conducted a survey in December of 2024. They asked Americans to make predictions for their expectations for 2025. So Republicans are overwhelmingly positive at what they think is going to happen in 2025. Except for political cooperation.

Shawn (27:54.479)
Okay. Okay.

Matt (28:17.359)
They think that the economy is going to be better. They think that foreign relations are going to be better. They think there's going to be more peace on earth. Everything is going to be awesome in 2025. you're a Republican Democrats, shockingly are the exact opposite of that. They think things are going to be terrible. They might be like 50 50 on the economy or something like that. So my question is this on issues about which we know so little like economy and crime rates and international affairs.

How should members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints determine their level of optimism about the future? If you're not gonna do it through this partisan lens, then how do you decide, like, are things gonna get better or are they not gonna get better?

Marc Hallacker (28:51.462)
you

Shawn (29:01.401)
Well, I'll jump on that real quick. I think if you live by the lens of your political party, you will always be a pessimist and sad and heartbroken half the time.

Matt (29:13.359)
when your party loses.

Shawn (29:15.149)
Yes, I mean, that's ridiculous life. That's a ridiculous way to look at the world. And that's part of the message that I want to preach a lot is don't attach yourself to this manmade profit driven party and put your hope in the men and women who lead those parties. Number one, those doctrines change all the time. Those theories and philosophies change. Look at the Republican Party today compared to 15 years ago, right? It's not the same at all.

Matt (29:40.399)
They're not the same.

Shawn (29:42.861)
Those who had hope in their 15 year old Republican party, how can you possibly even, there's no consistency in it today. That's why I love the idea that if you put your hope in the lens of the gospel of Jesus Christ, let the scriptures define how you look at everything. I mean, that's the goal here is I want it, I want God through scripture and prophets to inform my view on everything. And then there's eternal optimism.

Matt (30:06.415)
Mm hmm. But how did so I want to know then are you optimistic about 2025 Sean? Are the scriptures telling you it's going to be a good year? Things will go well in Ukraine. Things are going to go well with the economy.

Shawn (30:20.729)
Give me one topic and I can tell you. Because I'm not going to base it on who's the president or what party is involved. Give me one topic and I'll say.

Matt (30:22.562)
Okay, you

Matt (30:26.935)
Okay, but let's go conflict in the Middle East. Is that gonna get better?

Shawn (30:33.103)
There's like you say, there's no crystal ball. I'm not going to base my optimism on Donald Trump's going to save the Middle East. No, absolutely not. Because, because, no, that was a, that was a good one to start with because Joe Biden was actually an advocate for the Middle East conflict, or at least for the Jewish state, right? Which seems to be a good thing because that Jewish state is a form of a democracy or at least looks at human rights in a different way. Right? So I can be.

Matt (30:40.975)
Okay, the economy.

Matt (31:01.038)
Yeah.

Shawn (31:02.317)
No, Mark, you don't think so?

Marc Hallacker (31:04.204)
It's up and down.

Matt (31:06.071)
Yeah. Yeah, my, my scriptures point me to conflict. And then I say, the second coming doesn't come without a whole bunch of like everybody hating Israel and big war in Jerusalem. So that doesn't lead me to any optimism about the Middle East, the, the latter day lens. I don't know. I look at that and say, doesn't it say in the scriptures that all nations are going to fight against Israel and they're going to be two prophets that die in the streets and stuff like that. It's like, so. All right, Mark.

Shawn (31:28.93)
It does.

Marc Hallacker (31:30.977)
Well, I have the answer actually. This is President Nelson just three months ago. He was talking about the general conference messages. them as a litmus test of what is true and what is not for the next six months. And then he himself says, the best is yet to come, my dear brothers and sisters, because the Savior's coming again, exclamation point. The best is yet to come because the Lord is hastening his work. The best is yet to come as we fully turn our hearts and our lives to Jesus Christ. And I, I...

Shawn (31:34.393)
Yes.

Marc Hallacker (32:00.853)
This is just me. would add in because Donald Trump won the best he had to come.

Matt (32:04.175)
You

Shawn (32:07.538)
Hahaha

Matt (32:09.391)
I liked the first part of that a lot, Mark. I was like, hey, way to quote from President Nelson. But Donald Trump part gives me no confidence at all. There's no like, but okay.

Shawn (32:11.801)
Yeah.

Shawn (32:20.717)
I'm gonna jump with Matt on that. I'm gonna agree with Matt on that side, Mark. And if you do, if...

Matt (32:23.673)
But I missed that from President Nelson. So President Nelson says we should be optimistic about the next six months.

Marc Hallacker (32:23.965)
A of A lot of optimism.

Shawn (32:26.959)
Ha ha ha ha.

Marc Hallacker (32:34.612)
Well, he just said that the conference messages are our litmus test. And then later just said the test is yet to come or a different quote from general conference. Cause I came ready. This is from elder. I'm not that ready. turns out elder eggbo, as we focus on Christ and follow his prophet, we too will be led to Christ and the joy of his gospel. So

Matt (32:40.963)
Okay.

Matt (32:55.576)
Yeah.

Shawn (32:56.217)
See, that's the latter day lens and that's it's right. Matt, do you agree with my original statement that if you are looking at the world through, if you're letting your political party define how you look at a world, you're setting yourself up for being disappointed at least half the time. Is that not true?

Matt (33:11.043)
No, I think that's true. But I think that you can be informed about what's happening in the world and make your decision not based on partisanship, right? So.

Shawn (33:19.033)
But do you think most people, this poll is, this is the one poll I think I agree with, I believe in. They don't look at the world beyond partisanship.

Matt (33:24.44)
Yeah, they

You

Matt (33:31.856)
Most people who consume news regularly tend to be leaning one way or the other. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (33:37.369)
There you go, there you go. So the answer to your question is there's no way around being very, very pessimistic and upset and angry if your worldview doctrine is Democrat party, Democrat leadership.

Matt (33:52.803)
Yeah, I'm just trying to think about how I put that into practice in a practical way, right? Because if most people who are consuming news are on one side or the other, that means that their natural inclination when they see something happening in the world is going to be to see it through some kind of a partisan lens. So that means you have to take effort to say, wait a minute, what are the leaders of the church telling me about this in order to see it in a different way?

Marc Hallacker (33:53.78)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (34:11.405)
matters.

Shawn (34:15.823)
here we go. Here we go. You don't think, and you don't trust people to put in the effort. That's right.

Matt (34:22.563)
No, I just think I don't know how to do that. Like.

Shawn (34:24.93)
What do mean, you're the best I've ever seen at looking at two sides of something without being influenced by all the chirping and the preaching. You are so good at looking at both sides. That's what I love about you.

Matt (34:37.753)
That part I can do. I don't know how to do it the way that Mark said, where I look at it through the lens of general conference. That's the part I've-

Marc Hallacker (34:43.941)
It turns out

Shawn (34:44.109)
Yes, you do. Go ahead, Mark.

Marc Hallacker (34:47.741)
That's all. Just turn the news off, get your news off of the memes, and you're done. It's fine.

Shawn (34:52.783)
Go hide in a room?

Matt (34:55.567)
You know, this is this is so true about Mark. Mark is good at making memes and good at finding memes. And it used to be that I would look at Mark's social media and the memes he was posting and I would get so angry because I would be like, does he not know what this meme is implying? And then I'd be like, let's have this discussion. And Mark's just like, calm down. It's just a stupid meme. And I'm like, no, there are important implications in the pictures that you put in that meme.

And he just laughs and laughs and look how people are so mad about this meme.

Marc Hallacker (35:29.36)
Yeah, I'd do that.

Shawn (35:31.087)
hahahaha

Matt (35:34.563)
Well, Mark, definitely getting the points on that one because yeah, you came prepared.

Shawn (35:41.487)
Those are good scriptures, Mark. Thank you for bringing those. Matt, I'm actually gonna give you the points because honestly, you do exude, the question that you asked is rooted in the problem of people not being able to get beyond what their leaders or their parties are teaching them. And I love that you have taught me, really have, my wife has too. It is so exciting and fun to take in all the information or look at an issue or a topic like the ones you said, know, Middle East issues or the economy or, you know, whatever.

and being able to look at both sides of things and then, honestly, you're great at using scripture or the principles that govern and go, this is how I wanna judge this topic. You're great at that.

Marc Hallacker (36:22.011)
And what were we told in general conference about doom scrolling?

Matt (36:23.203)
Well, these are the topics we talk about on the podcast, but when I'm doom scrolling the news, I'm not doing a very good job at that.

Shawn (36:33.736)
Hahaha

Matt (36:34.425)
Do more doom scrolling?

Marc Hallacker (36:36.242)
Mmm, almost.

Shawn (36:38.007)
I like that Mark feels comfortable just like point a finger at Matt's face and just say, judge you. judge you. Good. I deserve it too. I deserve it.

Matt (36:43.023)
Ha ha ha ha.

Marc Hallacker (36:43.181)
hey, I'm on your way soon.

Matt (36:49.377)
Okay, so this big question is going to take a little bit of time to get through, but it's worth it in the end. Okay. So when, Trump is sworn in as president on January 20th, he's going to be the first president in us history to enter office as a convicted felon in many States. This means that he will not have the right to vote, the right to own a gun, the right to travel abroad or to serve on a jury. Wait, wait, wait.

Shawn (37:12.963)
Yeah. Defend that Mark.

Marc Hallacker (37:16.978)
I'm sorry.

Matt (37:17.871)
We've got to get through the question. In many states, felons are not able to work for law enforcement as childcare professionals, a teacher in the armed forces. Felons aren't eligible for public housing or food stamps or social security or other federal and state grants. According to federal law, the person who is now commander in chief of the armed forces would not be eligible to serve in the armed forces. A majority of Americans decided in this last election

that felony convictions should not stop a person from being president of the United States. In this case, many voters decided to not hold Trump's felony convictions against him. So the question is, shouldn't every felon have the same right in other areas of their lives? Is it morally wrong to deny felons their constitutionally protected rights? Shouldn't everybody have the chance to have their case looked at on an individual basis and not just have rights denied based on a felony conviction?

Shawn (38:13.465)
So Mark, know you're gonna, Matt, if you notice, Matt sometimes frames a question and then, or frames a topic, gives a lot of background, and you think the question's going one way, and then when he asks the question, he just completely goes the other way. And that's fine, it's interesting, it makes things interesting. And I know, Mark, since you're the Trump supporter, I think, you're gonna maybe dive in on that. So before, maybe not, okay. But before that, let me just give my, I try to be true to Matt's question. So here's the answer, I think, to your question.

Matt (38:32.303)
Cheers.

Shawn (38:42.947)
You know how, you know how Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy are creating a new department in the government? Doge. It sounds like Matt, you're suggesting a new, instead of a department of justice, a justice department, a charity department. Is that kind of what you're suggesting? That's what it sounds like. You're saying that Trump, the Trump's gotten charity in this, what is it called? An unconditional discharge.

Matt (38:48.771)
Yes, Doge.

Marc Hallacker (38:49.319)
But let's

Matt (38:58.959)
Hahaha

Matt (39:11.716)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (39:11.789)
And you're saying, shouldn't everybody, like, it sounds like you're almost promoting that and saying, that's a good thing. Why don't we let everyone, let this Mercy, your charity department, let everyone have the opportunity for unconditional discharges on their felonies so that they can go back to living a normal life. Isn't that what you're saying?

Matt (39:28.793)
Well, no, that's not what happened with Trump's sentencing, right? Trump's still a convicted felon. He's just not going to go to jail. But when he's not president of the United

Shawn (39:35.287)
Yeah, but it was a very loose, what is it? Unconditional discharge means no consequence.

Matt (39:39.768)
Sure.

Matt (39:44.025)
Sure, no sure, but he's still a convicted felon. So he still can't buy a gun. You have a president of the United States who cannot legally own a gun. Well, what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is like, we're going to let him be president of the United States, even though he wouldn't even be eligible to be a member of the armed forces. So my question is, shouldn't then shouldn't the armed forces say if we can have a felon lead us.

Shawn (39:51.119)
Who cares? Do you think he cares about that? He doesn't care?

Shawn (40:04.247)
Right? your question is not. Let's, let's.

Matt (40:12.569)
then maybe you could be a member of the armed forces and have a felony conviction. Let's stop there. Go ahead Mark.

Marc Hallacker (40:15.758)
I love it by saying hell yeah, so there's that

Matt (40:23.257)
So what are you saying, Mark?

Marc Hallacker (40:24.713)
I don't know. No, I, your favorite, section 134 verse 8. We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense, that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, in all respects, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men. So, which of those does what Trump did fall under? Did he rob anybody? Steal from anybody? Did he murder anybody?

Peace!

Matt (40:54.775)
He broke federal election laws and lied about it.

Marc Hallacker (40:57.971)
But who's the victim really? I don't care. They all lie. They're all politicians. They all lie. There's no victim. I don't care.

Matt (40:59.801)
The American people.

Matt (41:07.055)
So you're saying if I'm convicted of a felony and there's no victim, then the laws shouldn't apply to me.

Okay. Well, I just think like

Marc Hallacker (41:17.3)
Probably. I'd... I'd... ...tell in laws about, well, now you don't get to vote or do this or that. I think those should be more for a violent felony or drug felony, a felony that actually... actually hurt somebody, because, oh, I moved some money around and I didn't tell you.

Matt (41:32.055)
All right, well now I'm gonna come at you, Mark. So coming into the country as an undocumented immigrant is a misdemeanor, right? That's not even as much as 34 felonies. So who does it hurt if a person comes into our country illegally? It hurts nobody, it doesn't hurt anybody. And yet we're still talking about like, they all committed crimes, coming in here, we gotta kick them out. So come.

Marc Hallacker (41:34.099)
Bring it on.

Marc Hallacker (41:45.884)
Everybody.

Marc Hallacker (41:54.727)
not your best arguments, you're bringing weak arguments, excuse me. There's not a lot of good arguments.

Shawn (42:02.531)
hahahaha

Marc Hallacker (42:05.52)
I-

Matt (42:05.539)
Well, yeah, my position is if you are, we need to get rid of these laws that say if you're a felon, you cannot blank, blank, blank, whatever the things are. If, if America has decided that a felon can be president of the United States, then we should say there should be no laws that say a felon cannot whatever.

Shawn (42:28.495)
that's your statement. That's interesting. So you just think that...

Matt (42:30.819)
Yeah.

Shawn (42:34.755)
there should be whatever punishment is a fix, whatever the jury or the judge defines as the punishment, but that no rights should be removed. interesting.

Matt (42:43.609)
That's right. You can serve on a jury. You can vote. You can own a gun. You could be a teacher. You could be a

Shawn (42:47.737)
Dude, you know what you're doing right now? Les Miserables. That's what you're doing. Jean Valjean, know, steals a loaf of bread, goes to prison, tries to escape, gets all these years, and now he has to wear that scarlet whatever, right? He's got the yellow piece of paper that just says, look, I'm a convict, you gotta show everybody. And so he has to decide, am I going to live the rest of my life as convict 24601, or do I change my identity?

Marc Hallacker (42:53.71)
Matt (42:53.933)
That's right. That's right.

Shawn (43:16.131)
being born of God and I gotta go live a different life so that I can get all the rights that God gives me once I repent. And you're saying you've paid the price with your punishment, back to citizenship, back to, there should be no stigma.

Matt (43:23.117)
Yeah, I-

Matt (43:30.435)
Yeah, I'm saying that Mark made the judgment that he doesn't care that Trump is a felon and decided that whatever aspects of Trump made it worth his vote, even though he's a convicted felon, and everybody should have that same right. That if I apply for a job as a police officer, it shouldn't matter. They shouldn't be saying, well, you can't because you're a felon. They should just be, you can, you tell them that you're a felon and then they can take that into consideration as they're making the decision. But there shouldn't be something there that says you can't possibly have this job because you're a felon.

Shawn (43:56.751)
And you

Shawn (44:00.249)
Do you have this stance for political reasons or for like principled reasons?

Matt (44:05.571)
This is for principled reasons. No, not charity. Well, first of all, it's the, again, for my principle is that individuals have rights. And if an individual has a right, the government cannot take away those rights. And if we create, if the government creates a class of citizens and says, you're a felon, therefore you don't have these rights, then you don't have those rights at all.

Shawn (44:06.713)
So charity.

What?

Shawn (44:31.023)
Go ahead, Mark.

Marc Hallacker (44:31.375)
Well, here's my thought on that because the so God gives us the freedoms of life liberty and property Government is there to protect those things. But if you place yourself outside of society and government through your crimes Well, then yeah, I see that we might limit and say well, we're gonna protect our group of people You're not part of the group anymore. So find your God-given rights in Saudi Arabia or Australia or somewhere outside of the law most

Shawn (44:57.549)
Mark, what would you say to whatever sentence though, to the crime that you've committed, once you've fulfilled that punishment, it is done, right? Isn't that justice? That's justice.

Marc Hallacker (45:10.574)
I'm actually with you. that's, to me the thing would be, again if it's a violent felony or drug felony, well maybe let's say it'll be a little debate or something. But if it's just, oh I moved some money around, whoopsie daisy. you did your time, God bless.

Shawn (45:25.711)
Let's say it's manslaughter. Like, you know, someone got drunk and killed someone.

Marc Hallacker (45:28.908)
Eh, who's done my answer? well that's

Matt (45:29.551)
Let's just say I came in the country illegally.

Well, that's so I think we all agree on this, right? Like people should be able to have their case or whatever looked at on an individual basis, right? Like I can understand if you're applying to be a rape counselor and you have a felony conviction for rape, then they could say, you know what, that disqualifies you. But Mark seems to think if all it is is moving money around, then maybe you should still be able to have that job, right? As a rape counselor or whatever. Yeah.

Marc Hallacker (46:00.59)
Yeah, that's, yeah, I agree.

Matt (46:06.691)
Look at this. You see this, everybody? Mark, Sean, and I disagree about so many things on politics, but we came together. And what brought us together? The gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what brought us together. Hey, you guys, thanks so much. This has been a great episode. Mark, thanks for joining us. It's been good having you. Thanks for coming so prepared. That's very different from Sean. Sean doesn't usually come prepared.

Shawn (46:17.977)
Nice.

Marc Hallacker (46:23.632)
thanks. Yeah.

Matt (46:31.565)
So it's good for you to set an example and remind us of how we should be behaving on our podcast. Hey, listener, thanks for joining us. It's been good to have you with us this week and we'll talk to you again next week.

Shawn (46:34.116)
Ha

Marc Hallacker (46:36.854)
Come back.