Matt (00:01.445)
Hello everybody and welcome to the RM Podcast with your hosts, Sean and Matt. And today we have a special guest. Our special guest today is Levi. Levi, do you want to introduce yourself or do you want to let me do it?

Levi (00:17.61)
Why don't you do it? Yeah, tell them what you know. We'll see how right you get it.

Matt (00:18.715)
Yeah.

So listen, the RM podcast has a couple of premises. First, you have to be a return missionary from our mission. Levi checks that box. He served in our mission, not with me, but he served with Sean and Sam. The other thing you have to have is you have to have a deep and abiding love for the other hosts of the podcast. Levi has that because he, yeah, because even though Levi and I never served as companions,

Levi (00:44.75)
Check, check and check and check.

Matt (00:50.489)
He loves me so much and I love him so much. And so this is what.

Levi (00:56.612)
I mean, I don't know how personal you guys get, but I do legitimately love you both. I have warm affection for both of you guys,

Matt (01:00.379)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (01:03.651)
Well, that was the weakest expression of what the reality is. I can honestly say that the two men in front of me, I love deeply, like my heroes, like the two who have shaped and changed my life, the two men who are the truest disciples of Christ I've ever seen. No, I'm going on and on and on.

Matt (01:13.135)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Alright, Sean, this is getting gross.

Levi (01:22.02)
It's an arms race now.

Matt (01:26.339)
Okay, so that's why Levi gets to join us. So Sean and I talked, we were like, you know, Sam's gonna be away for a little bit. Should we get another person to join us as a guest host? And I said, Sean, we are so good, we don't need anybody. But then I was like, but then Levi, like, we really, really like him. And I think he likes us too. And he's an RM. And sometimes his perspectives are a little unorthodox, a little bit like Sean. Like sometimes Levi can say things that'll just make you go a little bit crazy. So I thought, let's try it. We're gonna do this.

Shawn (01:28.732)
You

Matt (01:55.747)
It actually took a bit more persuasion than I thought Levi. You weren't as anxious to ju-

Shawn (01:58.211)
Wait a minute, a minute, wait whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The description of Levi and Sean is there's some unorthodox thoughts. Now this is Matt looking in a mirror explaining what the podcast is like. Why don't we look at the comments of our listeners? Let's ask them who has the unorthodox thoughts, Matt.

Matt (02:04.869)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt (02:15.053)
Well, so this is another problem we have, Sean, is that your family sends in too many comments. And so we can't trust like what the, yeah. So Levi wasn't actually as excited to, I thought I'm gonna call Levi. He's gonna say, yes, yes, yes, let me on. It took a little bit of cajoling, right Levi? You're like a reluctant participant.

Levi (02:37.849)
Yeah, well, I mean, I love to listen, right? I listen every week. I find it fascinating. liked, yeah. But yeah, it took me a little while, yeah.

Matt (02:44.919)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's okay. You're gonna get used to this real fast. You're gonna love it, Levi. And we're gonna love having you with us. Okay, so we're gonna go to the mailbag. So one listener writes, I have to disagree that Joe Biden's pardoning of his son is on the same level as Ford pardoning Nixon. Okay, I have to pause here for a second. I did not say that it was the same. I said the Ford pardoning Nixon was worse, but okay. Most historians don't see it nearly as dire as you do.

And rather than setting a precedent, actually makes it possible to hit the reset button. Pause again, historians. That's all I have to say about that. Biden's pardon is simply what it is. A very personal choice for a guy that just can't get the emotional energy up to care about the precedent, the pardon he's offering is setting. I don't know. This isn't a question, right? But any reaction to this?

Shawn (03:40.175)
There's a theme today in the questions and Matt's usually really good at kind of lining up some themes when we talk about it. And one of the themes is mistrusting government or do we trust government? And it's things like this that makes me and many of us, it's things like this Biden pardoning his son that make us look at politicians or at government or at political parties and go, I don't trust you people. You make decisions based on what's good for you. It's self-interest.

Matt (03:50.843)
Yeah.

Shawn (04:09.015)
You speak as though you're choosing to do things that are best for the country and then it's so blatantly and obviously not.

Matt (04:16.155)
Do feel bad disagreeing with historians, Sean? I mean, after all, they are historians. I don't know. I just don't know if you feel.

Shawn (04:20.783)
Are you going to make me choose between political scientists and historians?

Shawn (04:28.089)
I'd like to hear the opinion of, all through all these years, I can't even explain or describe what Levi does for profession. He's so smart and it's so, I don't even get it. So I'd like to hear an opinion of a scientist, programmer, whatever you are.

Matt (04:38.128)
Yeah.

Matt (04:42.157)
intelligent person yeah no Levi's a physicist Levi's a physicist like yeah

Levi (04:42.976)
whatever he is. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I trained as a physicist. I write software now. And I'm starting to disappoint. I have no strong opinions on this. Like I, Matt was very convincing last week and said, you know, I agree that it is kind of weird that it's this blanket pardon. I think that's kind of a strange one.

Shawn (04:49.443)
Yeah, no, trained as it. Yeah, see, that's the confusion, yeah.

Matt (05:00.123)
Yes.

Levi (05:06.948)
but I don't know. I would have done the same. think, I mean, I think we all agreed last time it's my kid, right? I sort of think I would have said, and also, I don't know that most of the people criticizing Biden have a leg to stand on. I don't think most of them have any principles at all. And so they, you know, for them to say, start rattling, shaking their finger, like, like Joe Biden's done something. I don't know. Outrageous. just don't.

Matt (05:10.265)
Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Matt (05:31.981)
Okay, so this whole idea of pushing the reset button, Mitt Romney argued that Biden should pardon Trump as a way to set the reset button. I don't even know what that means. But do think that he should do that, Sean? Should Biden pardon Trump to reset things?

Shawn (05:46.127)
No, first of all, that would have zero effect. Trump is the president, he's in his 80s, right? Almost 80. I don't think there's gonna be, the man is the most influential, unfortunately, politician of our time, right? Like I was listening to a podcast today that said, there are some people born today that when they turn 18 can vote for the first time, the central political figure in their entire existence will be Donald Trump. Like he has power.

Like this guy's not gonna, he doesn't need a pardon at this point. So no, I don't think that you should continue to play the game of, I don't know. It's all upsetting to me, so I don't think so.

Matt (06:18.143)
I see.

Matt (06:25.179)
I'm not comfortable with pushing the reset button in any circumstance. If my computer freezes, I don't push the reset button. I just let it to stay there. I would never push a reset button. So I reject the promise of the question. Okay, the next thing, another listener writes in and says, I agree the moral and ethical thing to do in a nonviolent protest is to face the music. However, that only works under certain systems. Gandhi,

Levi (06:33.485)
You

Matt (06:54.575)
would not have lasted very long in Nazi Germany, regardless of how inspired and noble his actions. He would have simply been isolated and locked up and never heard from again. It is only the openness of the British system that enabled and empowered Gandhi.

Shawn (07:08.387)
What an amazing point. Levi, was that you? Did you write that in? Usually all the smart comments are you.

Matt (07:11.94)
Now I'll leave I didn't write that.

Levi (07:12.92)
No! I wish!

Matt (07:15.579)
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Shawn (07:16.719)
Do you agree with that, Matt? Hang on, on, hang on, Matt. So you think it's immoral to behave like civil disobedience in right now Russia that's completely unfair, unjust, or in Saudi Arabia. You think civil disobedience is immoral?

Matt (07:33.499)
You have to face the music, right? This is why so many people leave those countries because 100%, if you're in Nazi Germany and you engage in nonviolent protest, you're gonna go to a concentration camp. And it's true, might, it's immoral if you're trying to avoid the consequence of your actions. So that's why I say it doesn't.

Shawn (07:47.981)
Yeah, but is it immoral? But is it immoral?

Shawn (07:55.111)
even if that means saving innocent Jewish men and women in Nazi Germany, even if means that.

Matt (08:04.603)
I don't know how it could mean that right if we go back to the Bonhoeffer example.

Shawn (08:07.535)
If it's against the law for me to hide innocent Jewish family in my home, it's against the law. That's civil disobedience. I would do it, but you're saying that's immoral.

Matt (08:17.623)
You do it. You hide them in your, yeah. Well then, when they catch you, when they, no, that's not immoral. When they catch you, you're gonna face the same fate that on fronk those people faced, right? The moral thing to do is the right thing to do and you don't worry about the consequences of your choices.

Shawn (08:29.699)
Yeah, gotcha.

Shawn (08:34.627)
Gotcha.

Levi (08:35.576)
I liked what Matt said last week and I'm just sorry that Sam wasn't there to bring up Thomas Mann. No, sorry, who was it? The man for all seasons, who's that guy? That Sam wasn't talking about, right? Who also said, man for all seasons, who is that guy? Thomas Moore, Thomas Moore. Anyway, Sam, let's shout out to Sam out there, Thomas Moore's biggest fan, who also said, you know, look, what you're doing is not right. I stand up for right and I got killed for it.

Matt (08:43.208)
yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah, and for else.

Matt (08:49.833)
there you go Thomas More.

Matt (08:55.277)
you

Levi (09:03.18)
I did think, as Matt was talking last week, as I thought, so what if I were an abolitionist? Would I say to slaves that you should, look, I mean, it's an unjust system, but you should accept this dehumanizing system. And you should allow the system to tell you that you're less of a person and accept the consequences. And I wasn't very comfortable with that. Maybe there are some places where I would say, no, disobey that law and don't face the consequences. That might be one.

Matt (09:32.345)
Really?

Levi (09:33.998)
Yeah, I would say. Like you would really turn to a slave and say, look, it's not a just system, but you need to just accept the constraints that this system puts on you.

Matt (09:41.381)
No.

That was Abraham Lincoln's argument, right? In the Lyceum address. And I would disagree with that. would say if it's an unjust immoral system, then as a slave you should, can you non-violently protest as a slave? You can refuse your labor, you can refuse to work, but they're gonna whip you, they're gonna beat you. it's taking that punishment helps to overthrow the system. At least in the, what this listener is saying is that,

Gandhi, if he had done that in Nazi Germany, it wouldn't have changed anything. He would just ended up like dead, right? And I would say if it's an immoral law and you're trying to change it, you can just disobey, but know that it's going to end up in your death and it might not change anything for the time being, but at least you do what you feel is right.

Levi (10:30.04)
Yeah, there's a writer named Antonio Gramci who was a prisoner in fascist Italy, right? That's now actually quite influential, right? He wrote prison notebooks that talked about, anyway, talked about a lot of really important things, sort of rotted in jail. He was like an anarcho-communist, but, and in his lifetime didn't get much done, but has been really influential to people since then. So, yeah.

Matt (10:54.595)
Yeah. Okay. Well, hey listeners, if you want to talk, want us to talk more about that, go ahead and send us a message. We'll be happy to respond. Okay. Sean, you're up with the thought provoker this week. You go first.

Shawn (11:06.433)
Alrighty, this starts the theme, man. This is gonna start the theme. Hey, real quick before we start, pause here.

Matt (11:14.093)
Yeah, hold on.

Shawn (11:16.175)
Levi, there's a lovely song being picked up in our audio. Do you hear it?

Matt (11:17.787)
Ha!

Levi (11:23.405)
Sorry, let me get him.

Shawn (11:28.749)
I it.

Matt (11:28.845)
Yeah, I was just, I was just gonna mute Levi while you were talking.

Shawn (11:32.975)
So obviously that's.

Matt (11:36.155)
Omar, just so you know, cut this stuff out. We don't want this in the podcast.

Shawn (11:39.737)
Yeah, Omar. It's fine, Omar, to hear the singing a little bit in that last little segment, but when I said pause, pause it and let's pick it back up.

Matt (11:48.751)
Yeah, that's right.

Levi (11:51.172)
I should have noticed that. Sorry, you guys.

Matt (11:52.731)
No, you're okay.

Shawn (11:54.095)
That'll be a cool signature piece. You always come with this amazing singing in the background. I love it.

Matt (11:58.011)
Hahaha

Levi (11:59.364)
There you go, with my late motif.

Shawn (12:01.581)
Yeah. Okay, Omar, we're going to pick a buck up right now. Okay. So during a Senate permanent subcommittee on investigations, senior executives from all the airlines, American Airlines, United, Delta, Spirit and Frontier, there were questions about their companies increasing fees on customers. this Josh Hawley, who's made it. Yeah. Who's made a name for himself. He made headlines for, well, doing a lot of things, making a lot of

Matt (12:22.447)
Yes, Senator from Missouri.

Levi (12:28.076)
running away.

Shawn (12:31.855)
Yeah, we'll see. For attacking the CEOs of Frontier and Spirit about their new policy or their policy of carry-on baggage fees. So they argue, the CEOs argue that 50 % of their customers do not have a carry-on bag and that their model allows them to offer fares at a lower price on these customers. And Senator Hawley did not like that. He did not like that. question is this, is this something the US Senate should be concerned about or is it something that should be left to private companies?

Matt (12:54.52)
No.

Matt (13:02.105)
Yeah. So this is where I'm going to come down on the side of private companies and the government should stay out of this. Don't you think? Don't you think? Like the government has no business.

Shawn (13:07.117)
Yes! Yes!

Levi (13:10.756)
I also agree this topic does get me fired up. I have a long term beef with Rick Steves. One way beef, right? I know I love Rick Steves generally too. Right? But Rick Steves, I once heard he was talking about something he was giving travel tips and he says, you know, don't check bags, just put stuff in the in the bin in case they lose it, you'll have your stuff right with you. And I'm like, no, dummies.

Matt (13:19.483)
what? Are you kidding me? I love Rick Steves. I have all of his shows.

Levi (13:40.226)
Like I'm here just trying to get onto this flight and you're loading a dead yak into the overhead compartment. Check your bags. Leave your bags. you know, put them in the bottom of the plane. They'll be there when you get there. Anyway, I don't care if the government gets involved, but check your bags, people's listeners. Check your bags.

Shawn (13:40.655)
You

Matt (13:41.519)
You

Shawn (13:46.851)
Yeah

Matt (13:48.155)
You

You

Shawn (13:59.863)
just a prior you don't have a philosophy on this you just get annoyed by people putting stuff over your head

Matt (14:01.401)
Hahaha

Levi (14:04.288)
No, no, no, politically I don't care.

Matt (14:07.813)
So one time I was flying out of Ukraine, was flying from Tel Aviv to Ukraine. And so Ukrainian airlines, they were walking the lines measuring carry-on bags. And if they were too big, I had to pay 80 euros for my carry-on bag because it was too big. And it sounds like Frontier is doing the same kind of thing where you get to the gate, your carry-on's a little bit too big, and then they charge you a whole bunch of money for the bag. And so...

This is a senator trying to defend his customers, his constituents saying, hey, you guys are treating people unfairly, maybe accusing them of discrimination or something like that, but you kind of know, yeah.

Shawn (14:43.823)
So Matt, so you who loves government intervention, why aren't you on the side of the consumer here? Don't you know, hang on, don't you know that the American people are kind of dumb and they need papa, what's his name, Holly, to take care of us. They need regulation, we need interventions. This is usually the voice that I'm hearing from you.

Matt (15:04.825)
Yeah, well this one, the harm that's being done isn't that big of a harm, right? And if you're being asked to pay a little bit of money for a carry-on bag, they disclose it in advance, they're not hiding anything. Everybody knows what they're getting when they purchase a ticket on Frontier or Spirit, right? You know that it's cheaper, also United, if you buy the United, whatever their fare is that's cheap. You know that you're gonna get a cheap seat that's uncomfortable and you're gonna have to have a big fight if you wanna carry bags with you. It'll cost a lot of money or it'll be inconvenient or whatever.

Shawn (15:33.615)
Well, I thought for sure you'd take the opposite stance, but does it make you at all happy, Matt, to know that I despise this Senator Hawley, this Republican? Despise him for this. This is big government overreach. This is a knucklehead politician going, well, yeah, especially for something so insignificant, for him to waste time getting all passionate about yelling at a bunch of senators.

Matt (15:33.839)
People know that in advance.

Matt (15:43.333)
Are you serious? Sean, Sean.

Levi (15:49.86)
for this?

Matt (15:58.02)
Yeah.

Shawn (16:01.891)
I mean, a bunch of CEOs about some stupid thing. It's this idea that I am government and I must metal in the lives of $50 bags. Like it's so pathetic to me. So yeah, I think it's an absolute horrible, horrible thing.

Matt (16:02.68)
Wow.

Matt (16:17.667)
In four years when Josh Hawley is Vance, what's the vice president's name right now? JD Vance. When JD Vance chooses Josh Hawley for his VP in four years, I'm gonna play back this tape of Sean saying how he hates Josh Hawley so that everyone can remember Sean does not like Josh Hawley.

Levi (16:22.478)
Shady Vance.

Shawn (16:22.543)
Shut up.

Levi (16:31.802)
yeah.

Shawn (16:34.575)
Hey, I'm trying to show I'm not partisan. I argue that the two of you, my two beloved friends, are a bit more partisan than I am. I don't like JD Vance. I think JD Vance is too much of like, let's use the government to... Why is that a surprise? He is that way. He's not like a libertarian.

Matt (16:47.419)
Wow.

Matt (16:51.247)
I know. Well, I just remember, I remember our episode after the VP debate, you were like, I love that JD Vance.

Shawn (16:57.119)
I said that. Never said that. You fool.

Levi (16:57.614)
The JD Vance.

Matt (16:59.483)
You're like, if JD Vance were a woman, I would want to go out with him, something like that. Okay, well, Sean, Sean, I'm going to give you the points because you said something bad about Josh Hawley and that makes me feel good inside.

Levi (17:03.636)
yeah.

Shawn (17:04.271)
You're projecting.

Shawn (17:13.303)
Yeah, I thought that it would. I thought it would. Levi, Levi, you like Matt's opinion? You're too indifferent about it. He just points you, you gotta give someone points.

Matt (17:15.343)
Yeah. Okay, I'm up. yeah, leave.

Levi (17:18.433)
Yeah, I that!

Levi (17:23.202)
Yeah, mean, I points to Sean. I like the topic. I like that we're, you know, I even like that, you know, I think Matt and I got to come to the defense of certain consumers, right? Just not the consumers Josh Hawley wants to stand up. But we're like, I'm for the consumers that show up in their pajamas. Yeah, I'm showing up for those guys. You're getting me through TSA faster. Yeah.

Matt (17:35.035)
You

Wait, I remember now.

Shawn (17:42.948)
Let me be.

Matt (17:46.457)
I remember now, I want to give Levi the points because he's telling people to check their bags and I like that point a lot. I hate people. I hate people that put, I hate when people bring all of that luggage onto a plane.

Shawn (17:52.239)
Hang on, I'm not gonna let you, I'm not.

Shawn (17:58.959)
I'm going to remind you that you said you hate people who do. Levi, okay, Levi, this is your first visit to the podcast. I'm not going to let you off the hook that much. Are you really not willing to consider the idea that some politician who has given all this power is going to waste everyone's time by yelling at some private companies and saying, you let people know, they've disclosed it, right? It's an open policy that if you want a cheap flight, you don't have to, you

Matt (18:01.691)
I hate wind people.

Shawn (18:28.652)
Bring that bag if you'd like to pay a little more you can bring it back like it's totally open and out in the clear There's no deception here, and he's wasted everyone's time yelling at this guy. Don't you think this government overreach? Don't you think that's a politician?

Levi (18:38.126)
Well, everyone watching C-Span on that particular... I just, yeah, I mean, he's wasting C-Span's time. C-Span's got nothing but time. But, but I just, yeah.

Matt (18:40.923)
Which is which is a lot of people hey come

Shawn (18:47.695)
But as Matt says, as Matt says, this man's a public servant. This man is working for us. And this is the thing he's spending his time doing.

Matt (18:56.869)
Yeah, that's good.

Levi (18:57.088)
Yeah, I mean, he's going to go back and make some fundraising calls. So yeah, he's interrupting his fundraising time, I just think I'm going to get very excited about him. Like, yeah, so he took an hour to yell at some CEOs.

Matt (19:01.411)
Yeah. Right. He posted it on his-

He put it on his own YouTube channel. He's really proud of the way he went after those airline CEOs. I like when people punch down. Punching down makes me feel happy inside. But there are so many Americans that are like, somebody needs to stick up for those airline CEOs. Why is he attacking them? They're just good people. Okay.

Shawn (19:10.327)
Yeah.

Shawn (19:14.681)
Yeah he is. yeah he is.

Shawn (19:30.351)
here we go. Here we go. Now you're revealing it. You see, you're indifferent.

Levi (19:30.616)
Yeah, who will think of the billionaires, am I right?

Levi (19:38.514)
yeah, my lefty side comes out. I usually like people being mad at CEOs. I'm in favor of scolding CEOs, generally.

Shawn (19:43.919)
I see where it's at now. Okay, now makes sense. Now it makes sense. Okay.

Matt (19:48.825)
All right, so my topic is a little shift of gears. So I have a close friend. He's not a citizen of the United States. About a year ago, he was diagnosed with congenital heart failure and he spent months in a Texas hospital getting the care he needed. He spent more months with this like carry around thing that would pump the blood in his heart for him. And then from September until now, he's been sitting in a hospital in Salt Lake City waiting for a heart and then they got a heart and they

put in the heart and so now he's had this heart transplant. He doesn't have medical insurance. He doesn't have any way to pay for this. And the care that he has received blows my mind. Like the fact that they could get a heart from another person, put it in him, save his life, like all the things they've done is phenomenal. I don't know how many, like what percent of the world population would have access to that kind of medical care, but I imagine it's really, really small.

And so this is why I think that, and when it comes to those costs, my guess is the hospital is just gonna eat those costs. They're not gonna be able to collect a small fraction of the money from this person. Maybe it's charity, maybe it's something, I'm not sure, but I think that this is one of the reasons why the United States healthcare system is thought of so highly, because we can like provide top rate healthcare to individuals who otherwise would have no access to it. On the other hand,

We pay way more for our routine medical expenses than do people in other countries. I'm always told that socialized medicine means you're gonna have to wait for care. Well, guess what? I have to wait for routine medical care in the United States all the time. When I needed a sleep study, I had to wait over a year to get access to a doctor to get that sleep study. Yeah.

Shawn (21:32.207)
Quick, quick clarity, Matt. Are you, is your insurance government or is your insurance private? Okay. And you, and you still waited three months to get your sleep apnea test. A year. Interesting. Okay. Okay. Keep going.

Matt (21:36.731)
I have private insurance. Yeah, I private insurance. A year, I waited a year for a sleep test. And then same thing, like most people I know, if they have any kind of thing beyond a primary care physician, they're waiting like a year out just to get the tests to see what's going on. And once they get those tests, the price that they pay out of pocket, even with insurance, is so high compared to other systems. So my question is, is it worth it?

Does the overall extravagance of the US medical system and these long wait times and the difficulty of getting basic care justify the enormous good we're able to do in the US healthcare system?

Shawn (22:15.929)
What a great way to frame the question. That's an interesting angle to have this debate. It's a great question. You want to try it? You want to hit it, Levi?

Levi (22:17.304)
Mmm.

Levi (22:23.908)
Well, yeah, maybe I'll start with so I had, I used to live in United Kingdom, right, and socialized health care there. And I had my appendix out, right. And so in the project with the, the procedure was seamless, right? I met with a guy and he said, yes, probably appendicitis. I can send you to the hospital now, they'll just probably keep you and not feed you until they take it out or you can go home and then drive to the hospital whenever you want.

went home and then, you know, the next day was feeling it again and drove to the hospital and they whipped that thing out. And then on the way out, they said, now it sounds like you're an American citizen. Yeah. Okay. Well, how long you been here? I said, well, just four months. And they said, no, I've got this concerned look on their face. Like, how are we going to tell this guy he owes out of pocket for this? I said, well, I work for a UK based company and pay taxes that way. And they're like, that's great. Then have a good day. And that was all I didn't pay.

A copay, I just walked right out the door. It was amazing. It was fantastic, right? And so I like that about the NHS, right? The NHS, also, actually, my company provided private health insurance for us, and I never felt an occasion to use it, right? We could always show up whenever we needed to, and maybe that was unique to the place that we lived, but we always seem to be able to get in on time. It felt a lot like American healthcare, but I never had a heart transplant, right? That's very different.

Matt (23:22.647)
No, nothing. Wow.

Levi (23:53.278)
And I think that what Matt's story shows us is that, mean, we kind of have socialized healthcare in the United States already. I mean, to a large extent, we just don't do it deliberately, right? I mean, the United States government pays more per person for healthcare, just the government, not even considering private contributions. Pays about the same amount per person as the Canadian government pays per person, right? Only they all get free healthcare and we're still paying, right?

Shawn (24:04.409)
Yeah.

Shawn (24:20.025)
Yeah. Yeah.

Levi (24:22.36)
So yeah, we are paying a lot more. Man, is it worth it? It is an enormous good that we're doing, but boy is it expensive. I mean, I like that Matt's friend got his heart, but.

Matt (24:34.041)
Yeah, he's alive thanks to our system. And for sure, if he had not been here, in fact, if he had not been in Texas at the exact moment that he was in Texas, like he would not be alive, right? And the reason he came to Utah is because they said, you're gonna get world-class treatment in Utah when you actually need the heart transplant. Don't go to Mississippi, don't go. Like the Texas doctor said to him, you need to find your way to Utah, because this is where the doctors are.

Levi (24:38.296)
Yeah.

Matt (25:03.909)
that'll be able to provide you that care. So like world-class care that he's getting, just happened to be in Utah. Yeah, but he would be dead. Any other country, I can't say any other country, but most other situations in his life and he would be dead. So is that worth it, Sean? Because we're paying for it, right? Levi makes it clear, we're paying for it.

Levi (25:08.708)
It's your Utah.

Shawn (25:10.921)
Hehehehehe

Shawn (25:20.431)
Gosh, for sure, No, it's fascinating the way you asked the question. I think there's two issues that have gone through my head in the last little while. The first issue is, and I'm glad Levi brought up Britain, the NHS system. Because the result of that, I'm sure changes and anecdotally, you had a great experience. I was easily able to find lots and lots of very negative experiences in that situation.

Some of the statistics, the recent statistics are very interesting. Like for example, in a situation where doctors, they don't make much money in England. That's what I studied. There's not like average, maybe $60,000. And so what's happened is there's not really a demand for doctors. And right now it's a problem because there's like 2.9 doctors per thousand people compared to the EU average, 3.7. That's a big difference. And then you compare it to America and it's like triple.

Levi (25:59.256)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (26:14.053)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (26:17.729)
And so the problem

Matt (26:18.171)
We're like six doctors per thousand people? huh.

Shawn (26:21.071)
Yeah, I think that's what I found. Yeah. So, and so that's a problem, right? Because you, you, you now have longer, you are having what a lot of people say is long wait times, not as qualified doctors because there's no drive, there's no incentive. And so there are issues. so, but, but really I the main category that I would describe this debate in is it's, it is forced charity, really charity. Like if we're trying to create a society in a community where,

We are charitable people blessing each other. Is forced charity really going to do it in the long run? Like again, I agree with Levi. In the short term, your buddy got his heart. I think it's beautiful and that's awesome. like, okay, 3rd Nephi 17.5. This is one of my favorite scriptures. I'm going read it for you. So listen up, okay? So it says, came to pass that when Jesus had spoken, his eyes, or he cast his eyes around about again on the multitude and beheld they were in tears.

Matt (27:06.958)
Okay. Okay.

Shawn (27:16.333)
and it looks steadfastly upon him as if they would ask him to tarry longer with them. And he said to them, behold, my bowels are moved with compassion towards you. Have you any that are sick among you? Bring them hither. Have you any that are lame, blind, halt, maimed, leprous, or that are withered and are deaf, and that are afflicted in any manner? Bring them hither and I will heal them for I have compassion upon you. My bowels are filled with mercy." I love that so much because what it teaches me is that I have to go look at Matt's friend who's struggling and suffering.

And a true society, a good Christian society is going to, our, our bowels will be filled with mercy and love and we will bend over backwards to help this man. But that's not exactly what happened in our system. It was forced to charity, right? No one chose to give charity to him and save him. And so I don't know if that's the better system in the long run to make our society. We all did. Yeah, but we didn't choose that. We didn't, weren't sure Levi, you can't say that you were charitable and you helped Matt's friend. You did, you chose that.

Levi (28:03.586)
Or all of us did.

Matt (28:05.839)
Right. Well, because...

Levi (28:10.88)
Matt and I did.

Matt (28:12.347)
Listen, when I say the hospital is going to eat those costs, what that really means is that the hospital is not going to charge this patient for all of that care and they're going to pass those costs on to other consumers that can afford to pay. So we're all paying for it, but we're just paying for it in higher.

Levi (28:15.075)
You

Shawn (28:27.887)
That's right. No, I know that, you're not choosing to pay for it. It's not your charitable hearts that have helped and blessed this man. It's not. It's a society that says, I'm going to take the money from you guys, me and you and Levi, and we're going to put it for this man who can't afford it. It's a good thing, I think. Yeah, I think it's amazing. But it's not like that's going to affect society towards a more Christian and loving and kind society because it's forced charity. No one had compassion on the man.

Matt (28:35.727)
Well... Okay...

Shawn (28:57.849)
They did it, doctors did it because legally they have to do it. And the system, they know they're gonna get paid no matter what, right? So they did it.

Matt (29:03.589)
Well, but it's been this way in the United States since before insurance companies, right? When there was a family doctor that would travel from town to town, taking care of people that were sick. If there was somebody in a community that needed care and couldn't pay for it, the doctor would choose not to charge that person, but somebody else who could pay would get charged a little bit more for their procedure.

Shawn (29:21.167)
Okay, I don't know if what you're saying has happened for many. I have no idea. I do know, for example, my...

Matt (29:26.425)
Have you have you watched Little House on the Prairie Sean? Little House on the Prairie? That's exactly how Doc behaved.

Shawn (29:29.935)
Okay, but I do know, so my grandma was in a car accident, very bad car accident, the damage to her heart was so much that she needed immediate surgery. And the surgeon that happened to be available at the time was our prophet. And this was many, many years ago. He wasn't the prophet at the time, obviously, President Nelson. And so he did immediate surgery and it turns out that because of his very expert, like he's the only one that could have fixed her and saved her.

Levi (29:31.67)
or call the midwife.

Shawn (29:58.755)
And afterwards, my grandpa who couldn't afford it went to him and said, I don't know what to do. I can't afford this. And he frankly forgave him the debt and it was incredible. that's, that's no, that's not how we do it. That's true kind charity where the person providing the service offers the charity in a situation of your friend. Those doctors are getting paid their salaries no matter what. And that's forced charity. So I'm just saying.

Matt (30:07.385)
Yeah. Yeah, this is how we do it.

Matt (30:22.491)
Levi (30:23.012)
Sorry, did Russell Nelson forgive all the OR assistance and all the everything? Did he waive all the costs or just his own?

Matt (30:30.555)
Everybody who was right. Don't you think?

Shawn (30:37.065)
All the assistants got paid their salaries. I'm sure he forgave what he could forgive. All the other people who worked for the hospital or worked for, they got paid. No, no, but.

Matt (30:40.057)
Yeah, well done.

Levi (30:44.846)
But not by Russell Nelson. Yeah. Okay.

Matt (30:47.973)
Don't you think he, don't you think he passed the debt on? Like he, he frankly forgave that debt and then charged you, charged other people more.

Shawn (30:52.919)
Wait, the stance you're both gonna take in this story is, well, President Nelson's really not that charitable. He got his salary too, is that the stance you're taking? Profits aren't charitable either, is that your stance?

Matt (31:02.223)
But I'm just saying like, I'm saying President Nelson is a product of the system. And when we say we're gonna have an expensive healthcare system, we're gonna, yeah, there you go. And I'm okay. If we wanna say we're gonna keep the US healthcare system as it is, that a lot of those, like that we're gonna pay more than everybody else in exchange for having this sort of like miraculous, really good stuff we can do, I'm okay with that.

Shawn (31:09.305)
Ha ha ha ha!

Levi (31:12.494)
that he worked with in a charitable system, Go ahead.

Matt (31:32.389)
But I don't think we should poo poo on other countries that say, you know what, we're gonna just try and at the best price possible, provide the most care for the most people. And if you have a heart transplant, go to the United States. Hopefully it happens to you at the right place or the right time.

Shawn (31:46.959)
Okay, well first of all, if I ever hear you say poo poo again, I will punch you in the face. Second of all...

Matt (31:50.555)
I'm sorry, Sean. What's the hip word to say? What should I have said there, Sean?

Shawn (31:57.207)
I'm not telling you, you're not worthy to know. But the second point would be, I love the way you frame the question because it does make me, it made me face a choice, right? Our system is what it is. And never before until you asked the question, did I go, all right, am I gladly overpaying for my day-to-day healthcare knowing that that could charitably be going to other people? And it forced me to go, well, maybe I can make a choice to be charitable in this situation.

If I support this system, don't complain about it, maybe I have a choice and I love that that man got his heart transplant. So maybe there's a way to do it. So I thank you for giving me this broadened perspective. That was pretty cool. Points to Matt.

Matt (32:37.349)
Well, I was going to give you points, Sean, because you said it better than I did. So I'll give you points for making me sound so good.

Levi (32:41.156)
It was well done. It is an amazing question that I feel like we mostly dodged it, right? Because there's a question buried in there and it is, okay, so we pay a lot for the healthcare of a few people, but there are a lot of people that go without care. I mean, in the United States, yes, but globally, certainly, right? And certainly, but those are choices we make and they are hard moral choices. Do we pay millions and millions of dollars to save Matt's friend?

Or do we pay millions and millions of dollars to save entire villages and countries in Africa? Like there are some trade-offs there, and then I feel like we maybe dodge some of those.

Matt (33:23.259)
Well now you're making me feel bad Levi. Now you're making me feel bad. Because I'm choosing to save my friend over the millions of people I don't know.

Levi (33:27.83)
No, no, no, I feel I actually also looked up the the list of countries by physicians. Cuba is at the top, followed by Sweden. Bulgaria is in there. The United States comes in at 40 right between below North Korea and above New Zealand.

Shawn (33:30.191)
You

Matt (33:49.197)
Number of doctors per person.

Levi (33:50.296)
So doctors per capita. Yeah, doctors per per 10,000 people. Cuba's top. that's, mean, Cuba famously trains doctors and ships them all over Latin America.

Matt (33:54.331)
Cuba is number one? That's crazy. Wow.

Shawn (34:03.213)
Liva is doctors per thousand the same as doctors per capita? Is that the same?

Matt (34:03.61)
okay.

Matt (34:07.705)
Yeah, yeah, that's the same.

Levi (34:08.964)
sorry, yeah, this actually was doctors per 10,000 people. Yeah, so USS, yeah, 3.6 or something, yeah.

Shawn (34:12.835)
Gotcha.

Interesting.

Matt (34:15.651)
Well, so maybe Bulgaria famously trains doctors and sends them all over Europe. Why does Bulgaria have so many? All right. All right.

Levi (34:22.412)
I don't know. There's some smart Bulgarians out there. Yeah.

Shawn (34:26.671)
Now look out, so who was stopping this? Cuba? Well, what did they pay doctors in Cuba? I'm gonna look it up.

Matt (34:31.381)
Nothing, Sean. They don't make a lot of money in Cuba.

Levi (34:33.474)
Yeah, very little. But I also think they don't pay for school, right? Cuban doctors are trained for free. So

Matt (34:37.187)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (34:39.404)
Also, they do pay them.

Matt (34:41.529)
Well, sure, every doctor makes some money. Yeah, of course they.

Shawn (34:45.081)
They make, come on, they make 50 per month, $50 per month. That's what the internet says, so.

Matt (34:50.203)
Cuban doctors make food. Okay. All right, Levi, you're up with your topic.

Shawn (34:54.639)
All right.

Levi (34:55.928)
Yikes, I hope not. Hey, look at this. is my first ever, first, what do we call this again? This is the Thought Maker, the Thought Provoker.

Shawn (34:59.513)
Now Levi, no pressure, but, yeah, and no pressure here, Levi, but you haven't earned any points yet, so let's step it up here, huh?

Matt (35:03.087)
The thought provoker, the thought provoker.

Levi (35:09.332)
man, I'm way behind. Let's check the board, you guys. It looks like going into going into final jeopardy, you're way behind. All right. Here goes. It's almost a political axiom in America that government does things inefficiently. The evidence that's usually given is some isolated example of a quarter million dollar grant to study the mating habits of hermit crabs or some nonsense. But of course, private companies are wasting money as well.

Matt (35:09.901)
You

Shawn (35:23.022)
Mm-hmm.

Levi (35:36.536)
Right? So my question here is, can we do a better analysis of this? What is the evidence that government is less effective than like a similar non-governmental organization? And if so, can we measure how inefficient is it like 10 % less efficient? it, you know, what's our measurement there? And then, you know, buried in there is how are we defining efficiency? Right? So what are your thoughts?

Shawn (35:54.639)
boy.

Shawn (35:59.747)
I feel like, I feel like Matt can just, I feel like Matt can just shut up and sit down because this is clearly towards me, right? Matt's gonna, yeah. Okay.

Matt (36:04.931)
Yeah, I can tell you the answer. Sean has met some government workers and they're all imbeciles. That's how we know.

Shawn (36:09.519)
Well, if we're going to analyze, mean, first let's get into it before we get to like the principles behind it. If you really are looking for examples, all right, how about San Francisco, right? They get a almost $2 million budget to build a 50 square foot bathroom. I got links in the show notes we can give you. A volunteer.

Levi (36:30.146)
Yeah, this is what I'm talking about, these isolated examples. Okay, I mean...

Shawn (36:33.263)
How many do you want? I literally have copied and pasted 30 here. How is it isolated if it takes me five minutes to find 30 of them?

Matt (36:33.829)
Bye.

Yes, Levi.

Levi (36:39.652)
Yeah, yeah. Well, because it won't add up. I'm guaranteeing you we have a $6 trillion federal budget and you're not going to make 1 % of that. You won't find it.

Matt (36:43.715)
Yeah, there's a lot of.

Shawn (36:50.927)
Okay, then let's go to the principle of it then. you don't want, you, did ask, hang on, hang on, you did ask the question. Give me some examples. Yeah.

Levi (36:56.93)
Yeah, yeah.

Levi (37:00.748)
No, it's true. I should have let the ants, yeah. Go.

Matt (37:03.323)
Hey Sean, listen, I've been in San Francisco and needed to use a bathroom and $2 million for a 50 foot bathroom sounds like a good price to me. I think that that's not a waste.

Shawn (37:12.239)
But that's per character coming from you. here's what happened in this. So three years goes by, $2 million budget, nothing's happening. Everyone starts making fun of it, complaining and mocking it. And so what happens is the pressure mounts so highly that the very Democrat Republican, I mean, Governor Newsom, he puts

Levi (37:14.259)
Hahaha

Matt (37:35.93)
Gavin Newsom?

Shawn (37:37.251)
Gavin Newsom puts pressure on them and says, Hey, this is too much. Even Gavin Newsom says, this is a joke that you've got a $2 million budget for a 50 square foot bathroom. Fix it. So what happens is a private company, a general contractor comes in and says, Hey, we can do this in a few months for $200,000. Pulls the trigger, gets the bathroom up. What do mean stop? I've got show notes here. Do you like, do you know who the guardian is, Matt? Do you trust the guardian? okay.

Matt (37:55.195)
Stop. I don't believe this story. I don't believe it.

yeah, I trust the Guardian.

Shawn (38:04.215)
Okay, well then you can read the article that goes all into detail here. Okay, so let me, so let me, all right, go ahead.

Matt (38:07.547)
Okay, but now I'm going to ask you for the details. Why was it $2 million and why did it end up being $200,000?

Shawn (38:17.039)
because the government who decided to not get bids and they decided to trust whatever buddy contractor they had to tell them what is this gonna cost us? And of course, come on, I've bid government contracts before. It's a pathetic process.

Matt (38:24.016)
got it. Okay.

Matt (38:32.151)
Okay, so you're saying the word in political science, we would call this cronyism. You're saying because of cronyism, they're passing federal or government money onto their friends. And because they're or contractors or whatever, right, or donors or supporters or whatever.

Shawn (38:43.439)
I don't know, it didn't get.

Or just they were inept and they didn't know, I don't know what it cost to build a bathroom, probably two million. All right, let's put a two million budget on it. Just inappropriately unqualified.

Matt (38:57.723)
But there are going to be bids on this, right? Or you're saying they didn't do a bidding process.

Shawn (39:02.287)
No, they did. Well, they did, but they awarded someone. Naturally, they go, so here's how government does it. All right, people, we have a $2 million bid contract, request for proposals, and contractors are going, what, for a 50 square foot, okay, I'll bid it for 2 million. There you go.

Matt (39:16.251)
you're saying the government told them in advance, we have a $2 million budget for this project. And so everybody bids it at 2 million because they know what that's what the budget is.

Shawn (39:25.069)
And that is your ineffective government taking sacred tax money and wasting it. Like, come on Levi, don't say, and the reason it's appropriate to answer your question and show you 15 examples here is because we're talking millions and millions of dollars. And the principle behind it is this, we consider tithing that 10%, a very sacred number, because the people faithfully labor and they put their sweat and tears and then they,

Matt (39:28.985)
Got it.

Matt (39:32.504)
Okay.

Shawn (39:54.233)
Sacrifice that well, think I think taxes could be that Considered the same just a little bit right like I know people who I mean I work hard you both work hard So my taxes are very sacred money Are you if you could if you and Matt's friend who got the heart transplant could save 15 to 20 percent in taxes and get the exact same Services that the government could provide is that not a righteous thing? Is that not a great thing for our community in our society? How can you trivialize?

millions and billions of dollars being wasted inefficiently when Matt's buddy could pay out of pocket, could provide for his family with a heart transplant.

Levi (40:23.382)
you

Matt (40:26.457)
Okay.

Matt (40:31.451)
So I think what I think my response to that Sean is that what Levi is calling an isolated incident, you're saying it's not isolated because it happens all the time. But the re.

Levi (40:32.792)
Bye.

Shawn (40:40.279)
All the time I've got hundreds of hundreds of examples here, easily found.

Levi (40:43.022)
That certainly is an isolated incident. That's why it's, yeah. Okay, go ahead.

Matt (40:43.931)
But cronyism.

Shawn (40:46.925)
It's not, the reason it's not isolated is because the process, again, we can go example over example, the process of government bidding.

Levi (40:53.216)
If it's not isolated, why is it in the news?

Matt (40:56.633)
Yeah, so.

Shawn (40:57.103)
It's an example of how the government in California, for example, again, I can go down the list if you want.

Levi (41:03.172)
Do you think that that's like an example that's right in the middle of efficiency or do you think that's more inefficient or you think that status quo?

Shawn (41:08.367)
Status quo. Status quo. Status quo. I do think it's status quo. Based on, based on, just do some research. Do some research.

Levi (41:14.7)
I'm really surprised to hear that. I've heard about this story a dozen times from different sources, and it's always the same story. You don't think maybe that's an unusual example?

Matt (41:23.395)
about this bathroom?

Shawn (41:28.961)
No, I don't because I was easily able to find it in two minutes amongst a hundred other examples and these are quick.

Levi (41:34.308)
That's because it is an unusual example, right? That's why you can find it. It's because it's unusual.

Shawn (41:39.033)
So you need me to find one that you haven't heard of? you want me to find one you haven't heard of? I got one. You got another one? How about, how about.

Matt (41:42.651)
No, think the point is that you're, so on the one hand, you're saying Levi's making too broad a generalization because he's ignoring all of these really, because I can find 30 stories like that are this way. But what I'm saying is you're generalizing in the other way. You're taking this thing that we call cronyism and you're saying that all of government behaves like this. it's,

Levi (41:44.996)
No, sure.

Shawn (42:00.079)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Levi (42:01.433)
Yeah.

Shawn (42:05.261)
No, I'm not saying, Matt, you jump to the conclusion that I'm saying is cronyism. That's one reason out of many. Another reason is inexperience. Another reason is, you know what the main reason is, now let's go to the principles.

Matt (42:10.985)
okay.

Levi (42:16.246)
In experience, that's surprising.

Shawn (42:18.657)
Well, let's go to principle Milton Friedman nailed it. I know you guys love Milton Friedman Let's all say this all raise our hands and say at the same time. We love Milton Friedman ready one two three go

Matt (42:22.331)
I do love Milton Friedman.

Matt (42:27.481)
Wait.

Levi (42:27.886)
We pledge allegiance to the Milt.

Matt (42:33.271)
monetary history of the United States tell me more

Levi (42:36.484)
Ha ha ha!

Shawn (42:36.759)
All right, here's the principle, right? Principle one, government solution is usually a problem. You don't want to argue this one, I'll skip that one. All right, fine. The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. And that's what we just talked about. Okay, principle number two, nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program and solution. It is absolutely true. You tell me if you think.

Matt (42:49.537)
I want to hear him though, Sean, I want to hear him.

Matt (42:57.796)
Uh-huh.

Shawn (43:06.455)
that government agencies are self-perpetuating. The mechanisms are in place. Okay, true. So whether it's needed or not, it is self-preserving and they will grow. Yeah, but companies, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And then the last one, which is the most important one is the four ways to spend money principle. If Levi earns a dollar and he needs to spend it on his family, he's gonna be very, very wise and very take his time and he's gonna spend that dollar wisely.

Matt (43:10.619)
True. True.

okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Levi (43:15.042)
As our companies. So as our companies.

Yeah.

Shawn (43:34.049)
If I give Levi a dollar and he's gonna spend on his family, he's gonna be a loser. Levi, if I give you Matt's dollar and say, hey man, I didn't even have to sacrifice to give this to you and you're gonna spend it on someone else, you're gonna be a lot looser. And I agree with this principle, it's absolutely true. And in the worst scenario, you've got government, which is spending other people's money on other people. And you're gonna spend it on principle way less wise. All right, what do think of that?

Levi (44:00.728)
Yeah. Well, I, yeah, Matt, what response to that? What do you think? Are you ready for me?

Matt (44:07.547)
My response is really really quick. I think that it's situational. I think there are times when the government is much more efficient than small business or the private sector. There's times the private sector is better and I think that you can find examples that go both ways. And so it all just depends on the very specific scenario that we're talking about. I don't think there is such thing as private is better, government is better. It's just very situational.

Shawn (44:33.337)
Wow. I mean, expected.

Levi (44:35.288)
I mean, I think I'm in line with Matt, right? And I think that the thing that we don't do in this discussion is we say, here's an example of, you like I read several of these, right? Where they'd say, such and such a dinner by, you know, of government employees cost this amount. And I think, boy, I work for a big company and I've been in some really wasteful dinners and parties. Private companies waste a lot of money too, right?

And I think that we never ever consider the waste that happens in business generally. We want to compare government to some fictional perfect way to solve a problem. And private companies are not that private companies have all kinds of waste in them. And I think we just never compare. Right.

Shawn (45:20.889)
Well, let's talk about that for a second. I don't think you can compare as closely as you want to because there's a huge difference. Again, if I own a company and I choose that I'm going to spend a lot of money on an extravagant meal for my employees, whether that's wasteful or not, it's my money, it's my property. And we know from scripture, hang on, we know from scripture that personal property is a sacred principle. I can read you the DNCs if you want.

Matt (45:48.505)
Yeah.

Shawn (45:49.697)
I will in fact. Whereas, hey, but whereas government wasted, it's not theirs. No, it's not theirs. It's, yeah, it's yours. It's yours in its mind. No, they have no way not mom, not on principle. No way. It doesn't.

Matt (45:50.893)
No, Sean, this is where you-

It's theirs too, Sean. It's theirs. You pay your taxes to the government and it's theirs. They get to do what they want with it. No.

On principle, it's the social contract.

Levi (46:09.998)
But let's go back to the sacredness of property though, right? So that scripture was written when slaves were legitimate property. Is that, slaves legitimate property, Sean?

Shawn (46:13.25)
Alright!

Shawn (46:19.809)
No, let's read it and then I'll answer that directly. So, D &C 134, verse 2, no government can exist in peace except such laws are framed and held in violators will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property and the protection of life. Now, to answer your question directly there, how can you have free exercise of conscience if you're a slave? So clearly, clearly it's anti-principle and it's against scripture to have a human being be a slave and also be a property. Obviously not. So obviously that's unprincipled.

Matt (46:48.475)
How can the government protect property if it has no revenue? How can the government protect rights if it has no revenue? In order to have taxes, when you pay your taxes, it's no longer your money, Sean. You don't get to go to the grocery store and you give them money for the bananas and then you're like, but I'm gonna tell you how to spend that money that I paid you for the bananas. It's not yours anymore.

Shawn (46:54.393)
I'm not against taxes.

Yeah.

Shawn (47:08.075)
Milton, I'm saying Milton Friedman nailed it. If I'm a company owner and it's my dollar, I'm gonna be more wise spending that dollar than is if I'm a government agency going, sweet, I got a $2 million budget, sweet, let's build a 50 square foot bathroom, go, because they don't care.

Matt (47:19.395)
I know... I know...

Matt (47:26.363)
I know it's hard to hear, but Milton Friedman was wrong about that. If you take a government agency and give them $2 million, or you take a wing of some corporation and give them $2 million, they think of it exactly the same. There's no difference in how they think about it.

Shawn (47:31.799)
No, he's right! He's absolutely right!

Shawn (47:43.555)
No, they don't. Says two people who have never owned a business. I'm gonna speak for Sam now. Two people who are not capitalists, who are socialists, who have never owned a business. You're dead wrong. I've been in both places. I've worked for companies, and I've also worked for the church, and I've also worked on my own. And you're dead wrong.

Levi (47:44.418)
Yeah, yeah they do. Yeah they do. well, yeah, yeah, that was fine.

Matt (47:53.243)
you

Levi (47:57.996)
You

Matt (48:02.723)
Okay, alright.

Levi (48:03.46)
Can, but can we just, let me just punctuate this point. So, Dock and Covenants 137 was written in 1835. And at that time, in many places in the United States, slaves were thought of as legal property. So, when they said property here, you know that there were slave owners that thought, great, only the all legitimate governments respect my property. That is these people that I own. So, my point here is,

This is saying we need laws around property, but maybe those laws don't respect all of the property that people can envision, right? That maybe there's a difference between the company you built from the ground up and the company that the Waltons inherited from their daddy, right? Those aren't the same, those aren't morally the same kind of property, right?

Shawn (48:53.451)
Okay, it's a great point, but you'd have to show me, and thank you for bringing scripture, you'd have to show me additional scripture that doesn't arbitrarily apply property to this or that. For example, D &C 134.2 is very specific. The three principles that are sacred are one, well it says individual, the free exercise of conscious is a principle.

Levi (49:12.452)
I would disagree. It's not specific at all about what it means by property.

Shawn (49:20.823)
clearly you can't have an individual who doesn't, that's a principle to protect. So that clearly delineates between property and an individual who is granted the freedom to exercise their conscience. Clearly that's anti-slavery, clearly. So I got a nice link there. I'm not gonna arbitrarily say no, but just because someone calls a person property, that...

Matt (49:45.401)
Like the US government.

Shawn (49:46.799)
Yeah, like the US government. That's clearly unprincipled. The scripture here is clear about that. If you can find me other scriptures that say this defines property and this doesn't define property, then I'd go with you. I would 100 % go with you.

Levi (49:46.946)
Yeah. Yeah.

Levi (49:59.822)
Yeah. Well, but so what if somebody came and said, well, I don't think that inherited property is really legitimate property.

Matt (50:00.078)
Okay, alright.

Shawn (50:07.311)
Show me scripture. That's the nice thing about this fun podcast is I get to just go.

Levi (50:11.94)
Well, no, that's fine. That's fine. But don't bring up Doctrine and Covenants 137 in defense of that particular kind of property because Doctrine and Covenants 134 doesn't address any particular property. It just says that your legitimate government should have some principle of property, right?

Shawn (50:30.017)
All right, well, let's read verse 11. I mean, it goes even further and says, such laws will exist to protect the same, but we believe that all men are justified in even defending themselves, their friends and their property. the law, and no, this is the point. The principle, the both principles in 134 are saying slavery is evil and wicked, and it violates the principle of free exercise of conscience. And so this is clearly saying that

Levi (50:45.198)
but not their slaves.

Shawn (50:58.947)
There's a type of property that you, the government, currently call property that isn't property because it violates the free exercise of conscience. So I can clearly look at that.

Matt (51:07.259)
okay, Sean, but I'm gonna make you a plantation owner at the year that that revelation was received. And it says that you are justified morally in defending or fighting to protect your property. And the US Constitution says that your slaves are your property. So it's not a huge leap to go from that to the Civil War, where I say, I'm now I'm fight to defend my right to have slaves.

Levi (51:08.994)
Yeah.

Shawn (51:20.271)
But I-

Yeah, but just-

Shawn (51:27.319)
just right.

Right, but you can also, and I agree, but it doesn't make it right that the government is justifying it and making it law. That doesn't make it morally right. Like we have the luxury of scripture, and when we read things like government above property should protect the free exercise of conscience, that means that any individual who's labeled a slave has the right of free exercise of conscience. So I know on principle, scriptural principle, that slavery is an evil and I can fight against it.

Matt (51:58.245)
I'm gonna give you the points, Sean. You get all of my points.

Shawn (52:01.347)
Hahaha

Levi (52:01.508)
I mean, yeah, mean, that was this was you. You were in the hot seat and you did a great job. You you. You did great.

Matt (52:08.795)
Sean, Levi, can't compliment like that. All you can say is, give you the points. You can't say why, because sometimes it feels backhanded to Sean. You have to just...

Shawn (52:17.775)
No, just when it comes to, no, Liv, I don't know if you've noticed this over the years, but Matt is, he does not know how to give a compliment that doesn't sound backhanded. It's impossible.

Levi (52:18.743)
Okay, alright.

Levi (52:28.47)
Matt, don't mean to, I love you very much. I agree with Sean on this point that I think we should have a workshop and we should teach Matt to say, Sean, I think that was a really good point that made me think a lot. And just, you know, just, yeah.

Matt (52:33.019)
You

Shawn (52:35.267)
Ha

Matt (52:46.843)
I feel like that's exactly what I say. And Sean's like, not good enough, not good enough. But okay. I'm gonna take this feedback and become a better person. I'm gonna be a better person. Okay, the big question. We're gonna move to gambling. First of all, I just have to know this before I ask the question. I have to know your position on this. Is gambling against the commandments? Is it a moral wrong? Is gambling a morally wrong thing to do?

Levi (52:51.027)
okay, yeah.

Shawn (52:52.973)
You'll try. You'll try the rest of your life. And I love it about you that you'll fail at that.

Shawn (53:16.227)
Levi first.

Matt (53:16.375)
I say yes. I vote yes.

Shawn (53:18.991)
Are you good?

Levi (53:19.51)
I'm in the Yes Camp as well.

Matt (53:21.441)
Okay, Sean.

Shawn (53:21.583)
Before I answer, do you have prophetic or scriptural backup for that or you just, it's a gut feel?

Matt (53:27.661)
No, you just have to answer, Sean. We're gonna get to the big question. In order to frame this, I just need to know. So are you not certain, Sean, about gambling, if it's morally wrong?

Levi (53:28.164)
I should have researched it.

Shawn (53:38.479)
Well, I know the church has a policy on it. I just don't know the scripture principle. Well, I'm gonna base it on what I feel God has revealed to us. I'm gonna say.

Matt (53:40.451)
No, you. You, you, you. Do you s-

Matt (53:48.272)
President Hinckley in general conference said gambling is wrong.

Shawn (53:51.811)
Well, the policy says it's motivated by a desire to get something for nothing. The desire is spiritually destructive. It leads participants away from the Savior's teachings. So I guess I'll go with this morally wrong. Sorry, morally wrong, morally wrong. I apologize, morally wrong. Yeah, sorry.

Matt (54:00.123)
This is the longest, this is the longest. Okay, okay. So gambling is growing like gangbusters in the United States right now. There's a, can't even, FanDuel and all these like, there's all these sports betting websites. You can go online and you can play slot machines and you can play online poker and lotteries and all that stuff. So a recent study showed that people are moving money out of their investment accounts into gambling accounts.

One gambling addiction therapist says that people are gambling in the shower while driving before they get out of bed in the morning because there's no guard rails and people are getting addicted to gambling. So the big question, should the government put more guard rails to prevent this addictive behavior?

Shawn (54:41.507)
Matt, I always love when you pull data from sources who know things like people are gambling in their showers. What the heck?

Matt (54:48.463)
Well, this is a therapist. Like he's talking about, he has clients that come to him for help with their gambling addictions and they're like, I'm gambling in the shower. I'm gambling when I drive. can't, I can't stop. And I have friends anecdotally, I have friends that legitimately are gambling all the time. Like I see my kids on Instagram and I say, you're addicted to social media. I see these other friends gambling. I'm like, you guys are addicted to gambling. You cannot stop. They're placing profits on everything. Like they can't stop.

Shawn (54:53.999)
Okay, Gotcha, gotcha.

Shawn (55:12.281)
So can I throw something back in your face real quick? Because your question is, should the government put guardrails up? But here's the irony in that. Local and state governments have collected $35 billion from state sanctioned gambling. So you're suggesting that government is the solution to help people not gamble, yet government is a huge part of the problem they are enabling and promoting and earning.

Matt (55:22.66)
Yeah.

Matt (55:30.744)
Right.

Shawn (55:41.73)
Off of gambling.

Matt (55:41.923)
Right, right. think that what the government is doing is morally wrong right now. They're saying

Shawn (55:46.617)
So your question isn't let's have them start regulating and put up guardrails. You should point a finger at them and say, stop being the purpose that gambling is so abundant. Stop engaging in the profit business of gambling.

Matt (56:00.101)
Well, guardrails can look like a lot of things. So I think that the governments, they frequently do this. They're doing it with marijuana as well. They say, look, we can make money off of this. Instead of raising taxes, we can tax this industry and only certain people are gonna pay taxes, but they're gonna pay a lot of taxes and we can bring in revenue, right? Or I think, well, states can pass whatever laws they wanna pass, right?

Levi (56:01.644)
I say that yes.

Shawn (56:21.261)
But is that constitutional, Matt?

Shawn (56:26.191)
But I mean, if any of those go to whatever, would the Constitution support those things?

Matt (56:32.603)
prohibiting gambling of course right the state of Utah prohibits a lottery the state of Utah prohibits all kinds of gambling

Shawn (56:34.755)
Well, Pri-

Shawn (56:39.799)
Okay, so it is up to the states. Because there was a court case in the Supreme Court that did say that gaming in the US, it's constitutional to allow states to make that decision. Okay.

Matt (56:51.555)
Right, right now states have the right, but Congress has the authority to regulate commerce between states. So the US government could, if they wanted to, decide to regulate gambling or to make it illegal and try to supersede state laws.

Shawn (57:08.879)
So yeah, just for clarity, so in 2018, the Supreme Court declared a federal ban on sports gambling to be unconstitutional, Murphy versus National Collegiate, so the NCAA. And that's when it surged in the states. Gotcha.

Matt (57:18.841)
And that's why, that's why it's, yeah, right. Yeah. But we could, we could still take him. Yeah. Well, you could still, you could still fight. That's right. But the question is, Sean, should they, should governments say, look, this is, this is bad for people. Like, like last time we talked about how the government should force corporations to put warning labels on things so that consumers can make choices.

Levi (57:24.28)
that was a federal law that was struck down. So a state can still pass its own law.

Shawn (57:48.419)
Yeah.

Matt (57:48.613)
That's so far different than saying, as a government, we're gonna choose to profit off of behavior that we know leads to negative things in people's lives. you don't like the government taxing people, I don't like the government profiting off of addictive behavior that people might engage in.

Shawn (57:59.737)
Ha

Shawn (58:04.833)
Look, if the question was a little differently, if the question was, should government not profit off of gambling? The answer is absolutely yes. Like that's clear, no brainer. I don't know who supports that. But if the question was just,

Matt (58:14.543)
Well, they're going to tax. going to, you're going to tax winnings, right? So that's profiting. If you tax, like the only way to have it the other way, Sean, is to say the government won't even tax it. They won't, right? Right. If you're taxing it.

Shawn (58:24.927)
yeah, but they're engaging in a more, but they're engaging in profiting in a more direct way as well. They're actually running state lotteries and collecting a hundred percent of the money and the taxed earnings. they're, you know what I mean? So if it was a question of should they be out of that, my answer is, heck yes, of course. If the, but if the question was, Hey, can a private company, open up a casino, right? We've got a lot of native American land over here and they're allowed to do casinos. And so there's people flocking to these.

Matt (58:32.89)
Yes.

Matt (58:50.779)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (58:54.799)
You're asking is it should that be illegal? that what your question is or is it just immoral?

Matt (58:58.361)
Yeah, should a state say, we're not having that in our state. I know that this is your land, but we're not gonna, we're gonna put guardrails up, right? There's things you could do other than saying it's completely illegal. You could put other restrictions on the behavior that would put guardrails up. You could force them to turn the app off every so often. You can make the app glitchy so they don't like doing it so much. There's a lot of things. Guardrails, I'm about guardrails.

Shawn (59:12.749)
What is?

Shawn (59:18.447)
What are you talking about? Geez, authoritarian government. my gosh. Man, Sam would be punching you in the face. right, Levi, what do you think? What do you think?

Levi (59:29.612)
Well, no, but I mean, it is a tricky one, right? But but it does do so much harm, right? You I mean, I'm sure you talked to this therapist and he says, Yeah, the government needs to step in because these people this is out of control. This is ruining lots of people's lives. It does seem really authoritarian, like I don't know exactly how to do it. But but yeah, can I shut down the websites the same way pornography websites get shut down? I don't know if is Utah shutting down porn websites now? Can we do the same thing with

Matt (59:44.986)
Yes.

Matt (59:57.979)
I'm not in Utah, I don't know.

Levi (59:59.5)
with a B win or whatever.

Shawn (01:00:02.211)
No, I think they just.

Matt (01:00:05.211)
Do you know why I think it'll never happen is because do know who's profiting the most off it right now is the NFL. And those NFL owners are watching the value of their teams just skyrocket since this, since I'm serious. Like the people.

Shawn (01:00:15.407)
Stop it. You can't deflect the blame off of the government and always blame all private commerce as the problem for everything. Government is equally complicit here, equally as problematic here.

Matt (01:00:27.801)
Listen.

Matt (01:00:31.395)
I, but we all listen to sports radio and watch sports programming, right? And you can see the shift in what sports programming has done since 2018, where every single show, it used to be fantasy football or whatever. Now every show is what's the line, who are you taking? Or there's some kind of person telling you how to bet. We're talking about profits. Like it's all becoming so intertwined in society that what I'm saying is that unless the government does something to push the brakes on this,

Shawn (01:00:36.025)
Yeah.

Shawn (01:00:41.422)
Yeah, yeah.

Shawn (01:00:50.745)
Okay.

Matt (01:00:59.833)
It will just become a part of who we are as a society and you won't be able to do anything to stop.

Shawn (01:01:02.511)
Okay, but Levi, do you want to live in a society where a government says to you, you cannot put your money into a slot machine? And Levi, you cannot worship as many hours on a Sunday. I don't know. Do you want a government? You want a society that is telling you how you can and can't spend your time, your money? Or is it better that God allows us free agency and we just need to make sure that no one is, like it's a free choice for someone to go in a casino and gamble their entire life savings away.

It's not wise, it's very harmful, but it's a choice that they have, right? Why is it not? What?

Matt (01:01:35.962)
Come on! We can't let people do that, Sean. Think of all of the lives that get destroyed.

Shawn (01:01:39.375)
What do mean we can't let, how would you stop someone from doing that, Matt?

Matt (01:01:44.155)
Shut down the casino if there's no slot machine. Make the app glitchy. Charge some kind of fee that's so high that the...

Shawn (01:01:45.645)
Okay. And if they, and if it's, and if it's happening underground, what if it's happening underground?

Okay, they get on a VPN and they can't affect the app. It's secret. It's going through China. No, no, no, it's good.

Matt (01:01:56.379)
I think I can shut down VP. I'm not good at tech.

Levi (01:01:58.53)
What if I had a license to gamble? What if you had to have a license to gamble? I've often thought about this for alcohol, is I thought you have a driver's license, you should have an alcohol license, right? And so that way, this would be a nice way that you could say, give to an accountability partner, you could say, hey, I'm going to hand you this gambling license. I can't gamble until you hand me this back. And don't hand me this back until you've made sure that I can handle this or whatever. What about that? We can license it.

Matt (01:02:24.515)
I like it. It's like a temple recommend for evil things in society. You have to earn your gambling license back. I like this idea. I think it's a good idea. Yeah.

Levi (01:02:30.148)
An anti-teporecment. But no, but then like, you know.

Shawn (01:02:35.023)
You

Shawn (01:02:41.305)
So there's a government.

Levi (01:02:41.57)
Right, just one more hurdle that you'd have to go through. So then you could freeze that in a huge block of ice in your freezer. And then you'd have to, you know, like they tell you to do with a, yeah, or hand it to your wife and say, babe, I can't handle this. Here's this license. Yeah.

Matt (01:02:50.671)
Or your wife could take it away or?

Matt (01:02:58.819)
Or you're getting a divorce and she says, all I want is his gambling license.

Shawn (01:03:02.159)
But how far do you go with that Levi? Because what if all the studies come out and show that too many hours in front of a computer screen are extremely bad for us? Like we're extremely bad. And so now you need a license to be on your computer for more than six hours. And you're like, but my livelihood is in front of a computer screen all day. Like how far do you want government to be deciding what's good for us and bad for us?

Levi (01:03:02.7)
I was like, my god.

Levi (01:03:26.328)
But I just don't, I don't think slippery slope arguments are the way to decide things. I think we as a society can make sensible choices and we can say, yeah, gambling's not the same as playing on an iPad. I don't think that if we outlaw gambling, there's nothing to stop us from outlawing going to church. We're fine. We're the thing that'll stop it. We'll say, no, we're not gonna take it that far.

Matt (01:03:52.411)
Sean, here's your Book of Mormon scripture. Jerom chapter one verse five. And now behold, 200 years had passed away and the people of Nephi had waxed strong in the land. They observed to keep the laws of Moses and the Sabbath day holy unto the Lord, and they profaned not, neither did they blaspheme, and the laws of the land were exceedingly strict. Exceedingly strict. Sean, there's your slippery slope. We want exceedingly strict Book of Mormon law.

Shawn (01:03:53.999)
Yes. All right, Matt.

Shawn (01:04:15.414)
OK.

Shawn (01:04:21.933)
Nice.

Matt (01:04:22.907)
That's where you end it. When everybody's, they're not profaning, they're not blaspheming, they're keeping the law of Moses and the Sabbath day holy. Once we're all doing that, then we can talk about easing up a little bit. And maybe you can participate in something like a sip of alcohol.

Shawn (01:04:29.401)
Hahaha!

Shawn (01:04:36.655)
that's... that. What a good argument, Matt!

Levi (01:04:40.004)
You

Let's not put Matt in charge.

Matt (01:04:43.451)
Levi, it's no fun when you join because if I do a scripture, I win Sean every time. You're not persuaded with the scripture, Levi. It's too hard. Levi needs more than a scripture.

Levi (01:04:56.42)
You

Shawn (01:04:57.527)
I give him points for at least trying to be informed by Scripture. Yeah, I give him points for that, even though it's… That's so funny,

Levi (01:05:02.989)
You

Matt (01:05:03.099)
Hey, listen, Sam likes us to rate our episodes sometimes at the end. This episode was outstanding, you guys. This was really, really good. Yeah, good job, you guys.

Levi (01:05:08.132)
Hmm

Outstanding, if I do say so myself. What could have been the difference, do you think?

Matt (01:05:19.016)
you

Hey, listener, we hope you'll join us again next week. If you have any comments, feel free to write them in. Levi, think, is gonna be with us next week. So if you have some very specific questions for a physicist who does software or something like that, Levi is your man. But also comment on anything from the episode. It'd be good to hear from you. Okay, talk to you all again next week.

Shawn (01:05:43.876)
Nice.

Matt (01:05:43.963)
Okay, one of these is stop. there's stop.