Matt (00:00.952)
Hello listener and everybody else and welcome to the RM podcast. It's so great to have you with us today. This is a really exciting week for us at the RM podcast because Sam is celebrating a milestone birthday. I'm not sure which milestone it is. He hasn't really revealed that to us, but based on his behavior this week, there's some special birthday that happened this week that's so special that he's not with us this week. So it's just Sean.

and I this week for the podcast. And Sam, we wish you all the best. We know that you never listen to the podcast, but if you happen to tune in this week, we wish you a happy birthday. We hope everything is going well. We hope you're having a great time. And we hope that you'll join us again someday for this podcast. What do you say, Sean?

Shawn (00:48.696)
Yeah, think we're gonna have to represent him here a little bit sometimes. I'll start. You introduced the podcast to our listener and anyone else. So Sam would have called you out and said, wait a minute, what are you saying? We have one listener today? Jeez.

Matt (00:54.743)
Okay.

Matt (00:59.694)
Ha

I said listeners to our listeners and everyone else, everyone else. I wanna welcome people who watch us on our YouTube channel. I wanna welcome people who are with us in spirit like Sam this week. But no, it's not. I think I said listeners. Did I not say listeners? It surprises me, Sean. I'm telling you, like, it surprises me the places I go where people say, hey, I love your podcast because

Shawn (01:08.746)
you said listeners. Okay, okay.

Shawn (01:21.412)
Ha

Matt (01:30.892)
we don't advertise the podcast. So like in my mind, this is like a secret, like it's a secret society, a secret, I mean, it's a, a very well-kept secret with the number of listeners we have, but it does surprise me the people that are like, hey, I listened to your podcast. And I'm like, wait, how do you even know that it's me? Because I've.

Shawn (01:48.152)
mean, at one point you did tell me, I just want a venue to be able to be myself and to be able to say the things I truly wanna say and to talk about my topics and I don't care if anyone listens. Yeah, so I think in your mind, this is just a fun thing for us to get together and talk. I don't know that you think that anyone's listening, but there are.

Matt (01:56.568)
Yeah.

Matt (02:06.062)
I mean, I that they are listening, but I don't know how they figured out who I am, but maybe, I don't know. This listener that writes in, maybe this gives kind of a clue to it. So this listener said, hi RM Podcast, as one of your listeners who also listens to This Week in Mormons, I think it's really important for Sam and Sean to know that over on Twim, Matt said that he voted in this last election. So I, and all your other listeners, would like to know.

To which podcast is Matt lying?

Shawn (02:37.284)
I know the answer to that. You said you voted the down ticket and just didn't vote for president. So you did vote, just not the presidential.

Matt (02:40.608)
Yeah, tell him, Sean, tell him.

Matt (02:45.452)
Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. I do believe in voting in local elections. I don't believe in voting in elections where you're again, local elections, it's debatable whether your vote actually matters there either, but it matters a little bit more, right? And so a hundred percent, I vote in local elections. I vote in statewide races. I just don't vote in the national stuff.

Shawn (03:09.942)
Is this, so Sam will just come at you hard. I'm gonna come at you softly. Did you develop this philosophy through some political scientist and their theories, or is this like, this is like Matt sitting in his bedroom listening to you two going, you know what, voting is stupid. I don't think I'm gonna do it. I know. Yeah, where did it come from?

Matt (03:18.999)
Yeah!

Matt (03:29.678)
The first thing every political scientist will tell you is how little your vote matters. But yeah, I teach a college core.

Shawn (03:35.613)
Wait, wait, wait, wait. First principles of political science are your vote doesn't matter. What?

Matt (03:41.558)
Your vote doesn't matter. Yeah, that's right. Listen, if you want to have power in American politics, you have to know where the power is and where the power is not. And so you have to start by letting people know that their vote doesn't matter. I think I'm trying to think who said this. I saw this on a news broadcast recently. it was Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton said this. He was on the Stephen Colbert, like late night show. And he said, if you're a voter,

You have power one day a year on election day and every other day you've got no power at all. And then he was trying to like build up the audience and make him feel like like what they did mattered. But this is a former president of the United States that understands that they care about the voters one day a year. And then after that they don't care because that's not where the power is.

Shawn (04:32.612)
But isn't that message a little opposite from what you're saying? He is saying that it does matter on that one day. The rest of the time, okay, you're saying political scientists say that there are other more important things to get involved in in order to influence the power. But sounds like, but Bill Clinton was saying that one day a year you do have some power.

Matt (04:37.685)
I mean, he's just saying...

Matt (04:45.014)
Yes. Yes, that's right. Well, that's because he's a politician, right? And he wants people to get out and vote. Like, so,

Shawn (04:57.06)
is this the snobby political scientist looking down on politicians? When I first knew that you became a political scientist, I thought we clustered all those people together, but now I've learned that, no, no, no, you scientists, political scientists, separate it, and you think, you got it all.

Matt (05:02.337)
No, no, no, no, no.

Matt (05:13.292)
No, it's that voting is the currency of, voting is the currency of politics, right? So it's the money that you're spreading. So they're always gonna tell you like, we need your vote, but they don't need it enough to actually listen to you, right? Where have you seen like anybody since the 2024 election say, I'm here to listen, I'm here to listen, tell me what you think. No, they say, you spoke loud and clear on election day and we're hearing your message.

But what is the message? It's whatever they want the message to be. There's no way.

Shawn (05:45.412)
But wasn't okay, but hold on. But when, when Donald Trump did not win his second term in office, that was a lot of people's votes counting because the message that the people gave was we're done with you, man. We're sick of you. And now a couple of weeks ago, the opposite message was, well, now we're sick of Biden. So we're going to bring this guy back in. Are you saying that those votes it's, it's just down to who did the better campaign, who did the better messaging? The votes aren't actually the things.

It's not actually the will of the people voting these things. It's just who better did a better marketing campaign. Are you serious?

Matt (06:14.978)
That's right. That's right. That's right. If you act, no, Sean, it's not marketing. If you ask the question, who won the 2024 election and you count non-voters in that population, then none of the above was the winner in 2024. was, okay. So we had, let's say we had like 50 % voter turnout, right? Okay. So you go state by state and say,

Shawn (06:32.686)
What do you mean you can't, non-voters? What?

Shawn (06:40.696)
Yeah.

Matt (06:44.65)
of all of the people, let's say the swing state of Pennsylvania, of all the people that live in the swing state of Pennsylvania, how many votes did Trump get? How many votes did Kamala Harris get? And how many people chose not to vote at all and stayed home? And guess who wins? Who wins is nobody, right? None of the above.

Shawn (06:58.68)
Okay, you're getting into your political science gobbledygook. Why would it matter those people who don't vote? We're not talking about them.

Matt (07:09.23)
It's, you just told me the will of the people. So, assume we talk about the will.

Shawn (07:13.15)
For those who choose, now I'm gonna really represent Sam, it's only the will of the people who choose to engage to express their will in the vote.

Matt (07:19.438)
okay. That's why I opt out of these kinds of elections, right? Because Sam has said this in the past, that when you participate in an election, you're endorsing. It's like sustaining or something like that. And I'm part of the American people that says, I think that the national political scene does not represent me at all. And the best thing that I can do to send a message, you don't represent me.

Shawn (07:26.208)
Because you don't want to.

Matt (07:46.528)
is to opt out of that vote and to not participate because I'm part of the now majority of Americans who say none of the above. I don't want this person. I don't want that person.

Shawn (07:54.66)
So what is a re so you have voted for presidents in the past, correct? Why? Why did you do it back then?

Matt (07:59.928)
Sure I have, yeah.

I didn't vote for a major party candidate. I didn't vote for a Democrat or a Republican. I would write in somebody because I would say this person represents my views. I would vote for the person that I thought best represented my perspective. But I've learned that that's a waste of time. That spending your time voting for writing in some name or voting for some third party candidate that better represents your views.

Shawn (08:08.066)
No, no, no, but why, why though?

Matt (08:31.286)
is a complete and total waste of time. And so it's a better reflection of my views to say, none of the above. I don't like that person or that person. I'm not voting for either of them.

Shawn (08:37.188)
So who is it, so who actually has the power to then elect a president? Who actually has the power? If it's not you, if it's not me, because our votes don't matter, who actually has that power?

Matt (08:50.126)
It would be 538 electoral college voters.

Shawn (08:53.24)
Yeah, but those electoral college voters are simply going to act based on the cumulative number of votes. Yeah, but that's what they do. But they've always done that, always. when have they not?

Matt (08:57.654)
No, they're not. They don't have to do that. They're not bound by that. They have not always done that. Look at the 1960 election. You can even go back to the 2016 election. They don't do that. And there's nothing in the constitution that binds them to do that. voting, 1960 election, JFK won the state of Alabama. The electoral college voters from the state of Alabama voted third party, George Wallace.

Shawn (09:14.18)
What do you mean? Give me an example of when they didn't do that.

What happened? Okay.

Shawn (09:25.891)
What?

Matt (09:27.042)
Yeah, happens all the time, Sean. Because they can, because they're Electoral College voters. That's the way our system works.

Shawn (09:28.354)
Why would they do that?

Shawn (09:33.816)
And there was no backlash and why did he become president anyway?

Matt (09:38.796)
because he had enough of the other states in order to become president of the United States. He didn't need those people.

Shawn (09:44.162)
Okay, if, they're clearly, okay, so that's the answer then. Those Electoral College representatives were trying to send a message knowing that it wouldn't affect the presidency, right?

Matt (09:48.864)
you 500 500 okay okay okay but what about all of those people in the state of alabama that voted for kennedy and their vote didn't even matter at all not even a little bit because the electoral

Shawn (10:02.257)
So why does it, so you named two examples, it doesn't happen very often, right?

Matt (10:06.284)
It happens all the time, Sean. You can go to Wikipedia and look at every presidential election and it'll show you in each election who of the electoral college did not vote for the candidate of the major party. It happens all the time. And sometimes it has a really big effect on the outcome of the presidency.

Shawn (10:09.624)
Okay. Okay.

Shawn (10:20.814)
Well, no, no, no, no. I don't care who the candidate is of the major party. I'm talking about the candidate that got the most popular votes or got more votes.

Matt (10:27.714)
Well, okay, so if you're gonna talk about that, it's not even until 1828 that the popular vote of a state had any influence on the electoral college voters. Right, so you're all the way up to Andrew Jackson, right? Andrew Jackson is the first president who was elected based on a popular vote choosing electoral college voters for the presidency.

Shawn (10:35.812)
Interesting.

Okay, okay.

Shawn (10:50.51)
So before 1828, what was the purpose and function of popular votes versus the Electoral College?

Matt (10:57.632)
No, there was no there was no function of it. State legislators chose who they wanted to have in the electoral college. Yeah.

Shawn (11:04.484)
Interesting. Okay. All right. Well, we're probably boring our audience, but that's fascinating. Okay. I'll do more research, in the end, but clearly in today's society, we have been either then according to you brainwashed or somehow convinced that voting is the most important thing you can possibly do and that it plays a huge role in picking who we want as our leaders. But you're saying that's garbage. That's not even true.

Matt (11:08.086)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want to bore everybody. Yeah, so I'm just saying I'm just saying like

Matt (11:33.262)
It's not true, especially not in a presidential race. Speaking of which, we just got a text message from a fan who says, and I'm just going to read it because it's related to what we're talking about. It says, he says, I love how we're saying he even won the popular vote as if this 1.5 % victory, the first for a Republican in 20 years indicates some sweeping cultural shift.

Shawn (11:57.636)
I wouldn't rub it. Who's saying it's a cultural, I guess everyone is saying it's a cultural shift, that's there. look, the winner gets to say that. Biden said that during, I remember during the midterm, you know, there was expected to be this red wave and nothing happened. And every Democrat came out and said, well, we've got a mandate now. This was an overwhelming mandate.

Matt (11:58.828)
Right?

Matt (12:07.022)
But the point is...

Matt (12:23.246)
But the point is this, Sean, the last time that a Republican won the popular vote in the presidency is 2004. Yeah, so that's the point, right? So if the popular vote doesn't even matter for the outcome of the presidential election, why would somebody waste their time participating in that? All you're doing is endorsing a system that further disenfranchises people, right? Because your vote doesn't actually matter in the presidency.

Shawn (12:28.462)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah.

Shawn (12:49.988)
But in 2020, hang on, but in 2024, if Pennsylvania, if the popular vote in each of those counties went Kamala Harris and the electoral representatives, college representatives instead went ahead and gave their votes to Trump, there would be some sort of a crazy huge backlash. There's no way that society would allow that to happen, right?

Matt (13:15.586)
What are they going to do about it? It would go to the Supreme.

Shawn (13:17.604)
They'll use the media to show that this is destroying democracy and sure.

Matt (13:21.482)
Sean, this is the...

This is the 2000 election all over again, right? In 2000, Al Gore won the popular vote in Florida. George W. Bush was not winning. The recount happens and Al Gore is still ahead. And the state, as the state says, we're gonna count all of these votes until we can make sure that Florida chooses the right electoral college voters to make sure that the will of the people of Florida is heard.

Shawn (13:34.562)
Right.

Matt (13:54.07)
and the US Supreme Court shut him down and said, no, it's too important. You don't have the authority to go and recount your votes. We need to know who the winner is. And so then the Supreme Court decided George W. Bush won Florida.

Shawn (14:04.164)
Have we ever done an episode where we just explain and talk about electoral college and why and how? I don't know, we're boring everyone, so let's move on, but maybe we need to do a section where we actually dive deep into that.

Matt (14:09.888)
I don't think so. I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So anyhow, all I'm saying is Sam talks about how grand it is that he votes, because all he did is vote for president and nothing else. And I'm just saying I have the opposite perspective of that. Vote for everything where your vote counts. Vote in the one thing where your vote doesn't matter at all. Why would you waste your time voting in that election? That's all I'm saying.

Shawn (14:31.982)
Part of me says, stop going after Sam, he's not here represented. And part of me says, go after him dude, because the weenie isn't here.

Matt (14:36.814)
That's right. Happy birthday, Sam. Okay, Sean, you're up first with the Thought Provoker this week.

Shawn (14:40.046)
Hahaha

All right, so this is something that you and I have discussed. it's kind of a, well, we'll see. Okay, so, Angel Studios. Do you know who Angel Studios is?

Matt (14:53.068)
Yeah, yeah, they did the Tim Ballard movie and they do. So part of it is they edit films right that you can like stream on their service, but then they have a movie studio where they create their own content. So what was it? Sound of Freedom was their big one. I think they also did the the unicorn pooping rainbows for the squatty potty like that was one of their things that they did. The squatty potty ads.

Shawn (15:14.468)
But is this the same studio that The Chosen?

Matt (15:20.43)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think they did. Yeah.

Shawn (15:22.692)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay. So they're releasing a biopic on German theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer next week. yeah. Of course, every biopic takes artistic license and fictionalizes elements that are not true to make it a compelling narrative, always. Yeah, which is really annoying. But according to Christianity Today, which is your favorite publication, right?

Matt (15:29.715)
That was good. You sounded like a German.

Matt (15:40.47)
Always.

Matt (15:47.048)
Hahaha

Shawn (15:48.726)
One of the things they change in the movie is Bonhoeffer shift from using religion to using politics as a tool against the Nazis. For example, it talks about how Bonhoeffer decided to join that whole internal like double agent assassination effort to assassinate Hitler, but that's not true. That didn't happen.

Matt (16:11.138)
Right, well it's debated, right? People, yeah.

Shawn (16:14.626)
Well, that's what the Nazis accused him of. I mean, at least all the studying I've done shows no evidence that he was part of that. Instead, his message was, what is true Christianity and how does a true Christian react to what's happening in Nazi Germany? And it was fascinating because he fled the country because he was going to get arrested and he was going to get killed. And then I think it was three weeks later, he decided, you know what, what am I doing? A true Christian, true faith in Christ means

Matt (16:17.421)
Yes.

Shawn (16:43.158)
you go and you sacrifice for what's true. And so he returned to Germany, which ultimately led to him being put into concentration camps and then hung. But his message was, yeah, mean, his message was, anyway, the question is this, why would Angel Studios choose, I mean, is the obvious answer just money, make a more compelling movie? Why would they choose a narrative where this priest who's really respected and revered as a Christian,

who was not violent, was anti-violence, but was using his free speech to preach the message of Christ and to love those who are weak, to love everyone, to love the Jews, love, like, did not judge. Like, he was really vocal about it, which led to his death. So why would they change the narrative in this movie instead of focusing on what he actually did?

Matt (17:32.781)
Yeah.

So they changed it from him like being committed to nonviolence and religion to him being committed to maybe political solutions and like assassinate, assassinating Hitler.

Shawn (17:47.042)
Yeah, I mean, that's, guess the, did, he, it is documented that he played a double agent, right? When he came back, he came to like a brother-in-law who's in the government and says, Hey, help me here or I'm dead. And he says, yeah, let's put you a part of the, some government. And then he was a double agent secretly trying to, basically he was helping Jews escape. was helping, underground messages to preach Christianity and anti Nazi stuff.

but he was not violent and he was not pushing for that.

Matt (18:20.77)
Yeah, I think it's because that's what sells, right? It's way easier to sell a story of a double agent who's trying to assassinate Hitler than it is to sell a nonviolent priest who wants to use Christianity to fight fascism.

Shawn (18:33.636)
Such money, just money.

Matt (18:35.107)
Don't you think?

Did you ever see the show silence? It's like about these Jesuit priests that go to Japan and they preach. huh. That show was so awesome in my opinion, because it makes you, it was.

Shawn (18:40.216)
Uh-uh.

Yes.

Shawn (18:47.884)
Was it true?

Shawn (18:51.724)
Okay, okay, hang on, then let me ask you about that. You're saying, first you said, well, it's a better story that makes money. Now you're saying a little different. You're saying, when you tell a motivational, powerful story, it moves me, whether it's fictional or not.

Matt (18:57.825)
Yeah.

Matt (19:07.212)
No, what I'm saying is that that movie I don't think was successful. I don't think it made money. I mean, I'm saying that the movie Silence, the message is stick to your faith, or it's just a question of faith, right? Some people stick to their faith and they watch people die and they say, I'm never gonna deny Christ and I'm gonna do the right thing. And then it's juxtaposed with another person who said, look, I just denied Christ because I was gonna save people's lives. And so it's always this question of,

Shawn (19:12.191)
and it was more accurate than, I see what you're saying.

Matt (19:36.93)
faith, right? Like, but, I don't think that that show does well because people, I don't think enjoy a movie about the struggles of faith as much as they enjoy the struggles of politics and espionage and trying to kill Hitler.

Shawn (19:51.214)
So that movie, what was it called? But would you have enjoyed that movie if you learned that it wasn't true? Would you still be like, was so motivational, it so faith promoting?

Matt (19:53.186)
Silence?

Matt (20:02.924)
I always do this in biopics or biop. I always Google what really happened. And then in the end I'm disappointed. I'm like, wait, my favorite part of this is not true. And it makes me like it much less. Yeah. Do you remember that musical, The Greatest Showman? you hate The Greatest Showman, huh? It's got Hugh Grant and it's all about P.T. Barnum and the circus.

Shawn (20:10.532)
Not even true. Yeah.

Shawn (20:26.436)
Shut up right now, dude. Don't talk about musicals like that. Okay, what about it?

Matt (20:31.244)
I spent half of that movie Googling the true story of P.T. Barnum, because I was like, wait a minute, none of this is true. And.

Shawn (20:37.366)
Did you also watch that dumb musical, what's the one with all the founding fathers? Yeah, did you watch that one? Did you Google all that to see if all that was true?

Matt (20:45.546)
Hamilton. Hamilton.

Well, I already, I already knew that. That one I already knew. Hey, listen, Hamilton is closer. No, actually it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (20:59.108)
Okay, so maybe this is a bigger picture question of if there's a whole money machine that has talent to make these movies to motivate us, take something like Schindler's List. I never Googled Schindler's List to see how much of that was accurate or not accurate. The most powerful and moving scene was the end when Schindler starts to freak out about not being able to save someone else and he has that pen and he says, could have sold and saved so many other people.

Matt (21:12.065)
Yeah.

Right, right.

Matt (21:19.917)
Yeah.

Matt (21:25.582)
Mm-hmm.

Shawn (21:28.344)
Did that actually happen? That was so powerful. So really, yeah, I mean, the question is, what's the obligation of these filmmakers who are making these inspirational, beautiful, amazing things to be accurate? What is their obligation? maybe...

Matt (21:29.726)
No. No, that didn't happen.

Matt (21:45.422)
Okay, well so then here's another one Sean, because I just watched this one yesterday. Have you heard of the show, Am I Racist? The Matt Walsh? Okay, I watched the whole thing. And I was like, just because I was curious, right?

Shawn (21:53.132)
Yes, you watched that? Why? That seems like something you would absolutely hate, but go ahead. Wow, you watched it? Matt Walsh, that's the Daily Wire, Ben Shapiro's Daily Wire studio production company who made that and matched. Okay, okay, tell me, okay, interesting.

Matt (22:05.036)
I watched the whole thing.

Matt (22:15.052)
Okay, so then I have a bigger problem with creating something that's supposed to be a documentary that does the same thing, right? So if you wanna fictionalize a story, a biography of a person who lived 100 years ago, and everybody knows it's based on a true story, I'm okay with that more than I am when you create a documentary that's clearly so highly fictionalized, like, am I racist? Does that make, yeah.

Shawn (22:40.066)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Matt (22:42.028)
I feel like if you're making a documentary, you have an obligation to be intellectually honest. If you're making a movie, a fictionalized movie, you don't have as much an obligation.

Shawn (22:48.356)
Well, did you see his first documentary, which was way more, yeah, he wasn't hiding behind a character like he was in Am I Racist? Did you see his first one called What is a Woman? Go watch that one. That one's.

Matt (23:02.454)
No, no, I didn't see that one. He, he alludes to it in, I racist? Right? He says, he says something about that. made a different movie.

Shawn (23:09.056)
I haven't seen him, my racist, for the exact reason you're saying, it bothers me that he's going undercover and basically scamming these people to try and get real information out. Whereas in the first one he made, which is what is a woman, he was just himself interviewing people, which was more fascinating.

Matt (23:13.41)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Matt (23:25.23)
okay. All right. Well, I'm to give you points Sean, cause it's a good question. I like the discussion and I don't know. What am I going to give myself points? What's the point of points when there's only two of us.

Shawn (23:33.26)
Yeah, mean, you're the only person I know in this world who gets excited about giving yourself points. go ahead if you want, but I did want to share one quote that he, so Dietrich Bonhoeffer, did write a couple of books and one quote is pretty fascinating. He says, silence in the face of evil is itself evil. God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak, not to act is to act.

Matt (23:39.342)
You

Matt (23:43.309)
I really do.

Matt (23:57.038)
Ooh.

Shawn (24:01.356)
So to represent our friend Sam here who's ditched us, Matt, he's just calling you evil. You didn't vote. Not to vote is to vote. Not to vote is to vote.

Matt (24:08.3)
I didn't, hey, listen, no. You can't twist it up like that. Not to vote is to speak. I will agree with that. And it sends the message I want to send by not voting in that election. Yeah. And same thing with, look, you can promote peace by not acting, right? You can be, you can be actively resisting, actively passive, like actively not doing something. And it sends a message.

Shawn (24:21.618)
Nice comeback. Good one.

Matt (24:35.246)
You don't have to actually be like doing something in order to send the message you want to send.

Shawn (24:39.076)
Okay, good comeback, good answer. Okay, I'm gonna do one more thing in the absence of Sam, because I know he won't listen to this. So in the absence of Sam monologuing about stuff, I'm gonna ask one more kind of tangent on this question. Another quote from him is this, faith is only real when there is obedience. Now that's, when I heard him, see, yeah, your face just made a weird face, because that's an interesting, that's a very interesting claim, right? I remember in college reading the Puritan Dilemma.

Matt (25:00.014)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Shawn (25:09.248)
about the, I think it was like a group of kind of what became Protestants, come to the colonies and there is this huge battle between, a minute, obedience is the evidence of your faith. And so if you're not being obedient, you're not faithful. And they would judge them and they would shun them. And it was this, it was a kind of a nasty time. So it sounds like he's kind of, faith is only real when there is obedience. Isn't that a crazy hard statement to get around? I either love it or I hate it.

Matt (25:37.292)
I think that there's, I think there's truth in it, right? Faith without works is dead. If you have faith in God, if you have faith in Christ, you're going to obey them because that's a manifestation of your faith, right? That's the works that you do to show your faith. But obedience, right? There's, there's nuance in how you obey. And so that's where I think it gets dangerous. That's, that's what makes me cringe a little bit is cause it's like who decides what you have to obey, who decides what that looks like.

I'm comfortable with that being God. I'm comfortable with that being Jesus. I'm not comfortable with that being anybody else. And so that's-

Shawn (26:13.154)
Right, because on the other hand, faith is only real when there is obedience. That suggests to me, well, you better obey everything. If you don't obey everything, then you're not a faithful person. But if I could obey everything, I don't need faith, right? Christ talked about all through scripture, there's the law of works and there's the law of faith. And the law of works, Paul would say this all the time, the law of works.

Matt (26:23.17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (26:35.576)
huh.

Shawn (26:39.216)
is no good for you. That's a law of death. If you rely on your own obedience and keeping all the commandments all the time, then you're dead. You're dead because that's the opposite of faith. So I'm torn on this statement.

Matt (26:52.174)
But if you love me, keep my commandments, right? So obedience is also a show of our love for the Savior. So it's, yeah, so it's all in the nuance. It's all in the gray area there of like how you apply that in your life. I'll give you points for that, Sean. That was really good. I like that. Okay, here's my topic. Okay, so while I was in a cruise in the Caribbean, we visited seven or eight islands. I can't remember. One of them was Puerto Rico, which is a US territory.

Shawn (27:05.592)
Yeah, okay. All right, thanks for going on the tangent. Yeah, good.

Matt (27:21.602)
We visited some Dutch territories. We visited some independent islands, independent states. The one that's most interesting to me is Dominica. Listener, if you ever have a chance to go to the island of Dominica, not Dominican Republic, Dominica, take advantage of that. You will absolutely love that place. There was, my son and I, there were three different waterfalls that were at least 100 feet tall and they would empty into a freshwater pool.

Shawn (27:38.744)
You

Matt (27:50.048)
and we could go swim in those pools underneath the waterfall all alone. Like there's nobody there. It's like it's everything you want in a tropical location, but there's nobody there. It's not full of tourists and things like that. So if you could, I know I'm doing this for Dominique, but anyhow, so we, hired a cab driver for the day to take us around the Island and show us things. And so, I, the guy has lived there for,

Shawn (27:55.566)
That's cool.

Shawn (28:01.252)
Well, now that you've told all of our listeners, it's done.

Matt (28:17.966)
I think he said he was 34 years old, but he's lived there his whole life. So we got talking about all kinds of things. And what I found out was that so Hurricane Maria in 2017 was devastating for Puerto Rico. And we've put a lot of our money into rebuilding Puerto Rico after this hurricane came through. Well, it also hit Dominica and it destroyed 85 % of what there was in Dominica.

But because they're an independent nation and because they're not part of any of our alliances, the United States didn't do anything to help them. We didn't help rebuild them. I think also there's like this America first agenda in the United States that's like, Hey, we take care of our own and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. So what happened? China, the Chinese government has stepped in and they've rebuilt government buildings. They're building hospitals there. They're building a brand new international airport in Dominica. I found out that

Every year the Chinese government chooses 150 of the best students on this island and pays for them to go to college anywhere in the world. All they have to pay is the airfare from Dominica to the place that they're gonna go to school and all their tuition is covered, all their housing is covered, all their books, all by the Chinese government. And so what happens is like when I talk to them, hey, what do you think about China? Guess what? Dominica loves China.

Shawn (29:21.357)
Wow.

Shawn (29:30.53)
Wow. Wow.

Matt (29:40.216)
And when I ask them about the United States, they're like, well, you know, we like the tourists that come on cruise ships, but we don't really have strong feelings about the United States. Right? So there was a time when global power was you put your army in someplace, you put a base in someplace, and then you control that territory. But more and more, there's this thing called soft power, where you buy influence and you make people love you you make people have kind feelings for you by giving them things that they need when they need things. And so,

What's happening in Dominica is that China is gaining influence in our sphere of influence. Like normally China doesn't have much power in the Caribbean Sea or in North and South America, but we're allowing them to build soft power in places like Dominica and other places in the Caribbean because of our unwillingness to help out those nations. And so my question is, is it wise for the United States to pursue this America first international relations strategy?

Or should we be doing more to help these countries to push back against Chinese influence in those regions?

Shawn (30:46.116)
Dude, that's a, it's such a, this is where you're dang political science. It's so complicated. It's so hard. Cause there's so many different angles to this. Like what one angle would be, look at some of our leaders in the past and what they've preached about Matthew 5 14. You know, Matthew 5 14, ready on the count of three, Matt, on the same time, let's preach it. One, two, three. Ye are a light of the world. I'll read it.

Matt (30:56.024)
Yeah.

Matt (31:09.178)
Unto the world?

Shawn (31:12.194)
Ye are a light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Who quoted that? What of your favorite presidents would quote that?

Matt (31:27.97)
Well, Ronald Reagan, but before that, John Winthrop, right? That goes all the way back to the founding of our nation. Yeah. Yeah, city on a hill. That was his big idea.

Shawn (31:32.44)
Does it really? I didn't know John Winthrop did that. So do you remember what he meant by it? Because we know what Ronald Reagan meant by it. Ronald Reagan meant get involved internationally so that we can, I guess, offer to the world the principles of freedom and democracy and justice, right? What did Winthrop mean?

Matt (31:52.556)
Yeah. Yeah. We show, we show the world. John Winthrop was like, we are a nation founded by God and it's our job to show people what you can accomplish if you live life the way that God intends you to live life and you're the beacon on the hill and you show people like what can be done.

Shawn (32:11.606)
In his, in his, obviously, John Winthrop was a Christian. believe he was Catholic, right? Yeah. he was Protestant. Yeah.

Matt (32:15.052)
Yeah. I think he was a Protestant. I think he was a Puritan. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so then that's the idea, right? Is that so Ronald Reagan takes that further and then he says, we're going to help other nations build this kind of society in their own countries.

Shawn (32:30.402)
Okay, but, but now let me give you the statistics that I just Googled about what are the countries and how much money does the US and this is so this is during the the the Biden administration, right? So we can't play politics here and like, well, the Republicans have this motive and the Democrats have this motive. Here are the top six countries. So the money 16 billion has gone to Ukraine. Almost 4 billion to Israel. Guess now that's obvious. Now guess who the next countries are just guess Matt.

Matt (32:48.184)
Okay.

Matt (32:53.614)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (33:01.774)
I'm gonna guess it's European nations.

Shawn (33:05.486)
Good guess, 100 % wrong. I would have guessed the same thing. The next is Ethiopia, then Jordan, then Egypt, then Afghanistan. I didn't know that. But that's clearly not us trying to be a light on a hill. All six of those are clearly strategic partnerships, military.

Matt (33:09.919)
Africa

Matt (33:15.148)
Yeah, the Middle East. Yeah.

Matt (33:25.238)
Military, well, it's because the military is expensive, right? And we've stopped giving foreign aid. Listen, I know that people like to complain about the southern border and all the people that are like coming across the southern border. Do you know how you could stop the border crisis? You could help those people have better countries that they live in and then they wouldn't come here. Venezuela is a mess and people don't wanna leave their homes in Venezuela. They'd love to stay there. So if you put a little bit of money into building up Venezuela,

then the people don't leave there. Same thing with like El Salvador, Honduras, those people don't want to leave their countries and come here.

Shawn (33:59.748)
Okay, what do you mean specifically put a little money into Venezuela? What do you mean by that? I get a small, beautiful island that you just visited and I get coming in and just having charity money and just saying, hey, we're gonna support you as a PR move so that our country looks good. But that doesn't work in Venezuela. You'd have to really, really influence Venezuela, i.e. a coup? Like what? What do you mean invest in Venezuela?

Matt (34:27.02)
No, no, you don't have to fund a coup in Venezuela. So this is our problem, right? If there's a government in power that we don't like the government in power, we pull away because we say they're going to do things we don't like. Let's, do the sort of thing where we say, let's not give them any money. Let's not give them any aid. Let's pull back all of our support and we'll see if we can help the people rise up and overthrow that regime. And then once that regime is gone, we'll come back in and we'll help you out again. And I'm saying there are people in Venezuela that are

Shawn (34:42.027)
isolate them.

Matt (34:55.426)
that love democracy, that love freedom, and you can give money to those organizations and help them. Like just really simple groups that help feed the homeless and help people find housing. You can help those groups in Venezuelan society. If you have a government in Venezuela that's stealing all that money and taking it away so that homelessness becomes a huge problem, then give money to the organizations that are trying to fight homelessness in Venezuela. And then those homeless people don't try to come to the US.

Shawn (35:20.996)
So you really do believe in what John Winthrop and Ronald Reagan preached, which is America should be that city on a hill holding the candle up and there should be charitable motives behind what we do. Let's help the world and that goodwill and that good example, that Christ-like example is what will influence them to be allies with America. That's what your motive is.

Matt (35:47.906)
That's right. It solves so many of our problems if we spend our resources doing good around the world. And if you think about it, Sean, there's never been a nation in the history of the world that has the kind of wealth accumulated in it that we do in the United States. And rather than spending that money on the things we spend it on oftentimes, we could spend it on other countries, helping them build prosperity in their own countries. And then we would solve our problems in our nation as well.

Shawn (36:03.086)
Sorry, you-

Shawn (36:16.056)
But if you look at the list that I just read, how charitable is the US when it comes to Ukraine, Israel, Ethiopia, Jordan, Egypt and Afghanistan? Is that charitable or is that

Matt (36:27.278)
Well, that's because you're looking at military dollars, right? It's because we've had over the last eight years an America first agenda where we're trying to isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. taking the...

Shawn (36:38.328)
That's what I mean. That's what I'm asking you. Do you think that the reason for that is because we are isolationist and not trying to be that light on the Hill or that city on the Hill? Or do you feel like those are charitable? I feel like, I feel like even under the Democratic, like the Republicans are kind of poised as this like, or painted as this America first, but the Democrats, this is, this is spending under the Democrats.

Matt (36:47.064)
Yes.

Matt (36:54.412)
Yeah, look they

America first.

Sure, they are too. Sure, Democrats are America first as well, right? There are just as many Democrats that say, don't give our money to foreign countries. And I'm saying Americans fundamentally misunderstand the good that comes from giving our money to other countries, giving our money to other nations. Listen, everybody under, like you know as well as anybody, Sean, the money that comes from tourism, the money that comes from safe cities and tropical locations and things like that. if the United States were to,

Shawn (37:15.556)
Okay, interesting.

Matt (37:28.984)
help these countries be safer, then they're gonna love the tourism dollars that go their way. But also Americans who work in the tourism industry are gonna love the money that they make with a bigger tourism industry.

Shawn (37:39.012)
But yeah, but now we're crossing, now I'm to represent Sam here because now we're crossing over into that line of, of government, Matt's belief that government will solve everything. Let's make government big. Let's grow government so that they can go and save the world and save every citizen. Or Sam would come in here and say, no, no, man, commerce is well, I won't represent his point, but

Matt (37:43.511)
Okay.

Matt (37:49.848)
Listen.

Matt (38:02.2)
Well, let's just say this, let's just take the money that the United States is spending in contracts to Boeing and Tesla or SpaceX for rocket ships and all of that stuff. There's so much money. And I know that Sam, we're going to attack him because he's not here. I know that he says all the great things that come from the space program. I'm telling you, you take that money and you've put it into Goodwill and other countries, and you're going to get a bigger return on your investment than you are from a space program. But we could pick on other things too, where the government wastes money.

Shawn (38:11.138)
hahahaha

Shawn (38:28.74)
Will you compromise? you support fullheartedly Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency? let's, no, no, no, and let's cut, cut, cut. If you will support that, I will agree that we should be giving charitable money to all the countries across the world so that we can have good relations. You good with that? Do you agree?

Matt (38:38.242)
I'll stop, I'll stop.

Matt (38:49.214)
I am always in favor of government efficiency. I am always a proponent of government efficiency. Elon Musk is the wrong person to do it. He destroyed Twitter. killed, he took a thriving company with lots of employees and he destroyed it. And I don't want Elon Musk to destroy our federal government because he doesn't know how to manage things.

Shawn (38:55.236)
So you support Elon Musk. Hang on, why?

Shawn (39:06.276)
Okay, let's... Yeah, but...

Matt, the reason he did that was a good righteous reason. He did it because of the amount of censorship that was happening in Twitter and he decided there needs to be a platform for free speech. So he comes in and he says, where are the ideological employees? And he says, where's the waste? And he cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Well, guess what? They're becoming profitable again, Matt. you can't argue that they are. They are.

Matt (39:16.695)
It was a pad?

Matt (39:22.278)
huh.

Matt (39:25.678)
Uh-huh.

Matt (39:36.078)
Profitable. They're becoming profitable again. They already were profitable. He didn't fix anything.

Shawn (39:42.06)
Yeah, I know, but they're, but they were profitable under the guise of censorship. They were pandering to a certain audience.

Matt (39:47.978)
Listen, if you, if you, you telling me that Elon Musk today could sell Twitter for half of what he paid for it when he bought it? No way.

Shawn (39:56.196)
No, no, no, but it is building back up. I read an article two days ago that the advertisers who bailed on him are coming back. And so it's turning. No, is. No, it's not.

Matt (40:02.966)
Listen.

That's irrelevant, Sean. That's irrelevant. Listen, I don't want him to take our federal government and reduce its worth in half and then someday say, but people are coming back again. Things are getting better again. He took something great and he destroyed it. I don't need him doing that in the federal government.

Shawn (40:17.604)
See, well, we have fundamental differences there. I want so badly for him to chop the government into half because it's a bloated government. It's too big. It spends too much money and it's wasteful. And so I'm wanting to cut it in half.

Matt (40:33.102)
But Sean, have an office called the Government Accountability Office. Every single year, they will tell you where you can save money in the federal government. And they've been doing this for 70 years at least. I don't need Elon Musk to come in and tell me how to save. Government Accountability Office, GAO. Yeah, we've had, like, Elon Musk isn't gonna do anything that nobody's thought of before. His thought was slavery, right?

Shawn (40:47.052)
What's it called? Hang on, what's it called?

Okay.

Shawn (40:58.734)
it's not true. No, no, no. He is gonna... No, no, no. So the Argentinian... Your hero, your current hero is the Argentinian president named Javier. Javier, what's his name? Javier. Yeah, it's good. They actually have gotten out of debt. All right, well, good. We'll save that for another topic, because that'll be fun.

Matt (41:00.982)
His idea was work for me 80 hours a week for free. I'm pretty sure that Elon Musk said that.

Matt (41:11.298)
Have you seen what's happening there?

Have you seen what's happened to Argentina since he took over? No, it's not. my goodness, Sean. Okay, well, yeah, we'll have to talk about that some other time. Okay, so here's the big question. So David Brooks has a column in the Atlantic that's getting a lot of attention this week, but there's, this is also something that scholars have noted that in the last decade, educational attainment has become the new dividing line in American politics. So,

Voters who have a college degree are more likely to vote Democrat and voters with college degree or less, less than a college degree tend to vote Republican.

Shawn (41:54.724)
Okay, when you started off this podcast saying that you're ready to come at me, this is what you meant. This is the one you wanted to come at me on.

Matt (41:59.744)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I really want your perspective on this. Okay, and so this education divide seems to affect more than just how people are voting in elections. It seems like there's this new sort of, in political science, we would call it a cleavage, but there's this new sort of division that's happening in America between the crowd that does not have a college degree and the crowd that has a college degree or more. And there's like this distrust between the two groups.

But then there's also this sense that I hear from a lot of parents that will say, I don't want my kid to go to college because they're going to turn liberal. And I think by that, mean they're going to vote Democrat. And as a professor, my perspective is we're not turning anybody liberal. We're just educating them. And then when they see the way things really are, then that influences the way they vote. But, but you, but you, yeah. And so I'm like, so

Shawn (42:48.132)
boy, boy you are just feeding, okay.

Matt (42:55.19)
This is one of the reasons I think why fewer people are choosing college degrees. At the same time, President Nelson says education is a religious obligation. So my question is, would it be good for the United States to put less of a focus on helping people obtain a college degree?

Because the church is clearly investing in it, right? The church is clearly spends, I think it's the number three, number two budget item in the church is these church education programs. They put a lot of money into church education.

Shawn (43:15.982)
Well, first let me, yeah.

Shawn (43:26.948)
Okay, so first, there's no one that would ever say, well, a fool would say, no, we should not focus on education. The church, our government, our society should absolutely always focus on education. It should be absolutely at the forefront. It's a value that we agree is a religious value. Here's the problem, here's the problem. you, great example, you said, you said,

Matt (43:47.246)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shawn (43:55.114)
Someone wants to educate themselves. So they have to come to me and I will show them the way that things really are. And when they learn the way that things really are, they will change their views, they will be educated. This is the big problem, is that people in education think that they are experts. That with this expert category that I live in, I have a monopoly on all truth. And the only way to get an education is for me the expert

Matt (44:06.55)
Yes.

Matt (44:19.53)
No!

Shawn (44:25.198)
to teach the fools about what is real and what is true. The idea that the university system has a monopoly on education to me is a huge mistake. It's a huge problem. And the universities have taken a huge advantage of that and they're really, you can raise prices. Are you kidding me?

Matt (44:41.688)
So.

Raise prices. So.

So what you're saying is you think that when I say, when I say we should get an education, you're upset that I suggest that education means a college degree and you can actually get an education in another way. Yeah.

Shawn (44:59.192)
Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, 100%. Obviously there are some degrees that make a lot of sense, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, social science, social sciences. No, no, I wouldn't agree with any of those, no. Why would I need a degree in art or in music, for example, if, yeah, sure, it depends on what you're going for, for sure. But no, don't, I've played in a band most of my life.

Matt (45:07.019)
Political science, art, music, humanities.

Matt (45:15.692)
Really? Like-

Matt (45:23.106)
Well, cause you know, you know the... Right.

A college degree? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Shawn (45:31.97)
And it brings me great joy. And I would say, so my wife got her degree in music and she's a musical theory genius and is a musician way above what I could be. Not, I don't think, and she may differ from me. Well, I'll get the feedback, but not because of the education she got, but because of who she is and how much time and effort she put into studying and learning. But I'd suggest she's learned more outside of her degree in music because of her pursuits than not.

Matt (45:43.054)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (45:54.104)
Yeah.

Matt (45:58.958)
But the degree teaches her how to learn. The degree teaches her the theory of it. helps you to organize information into a space that makes sense, that allows you to innovate. You build on the past and innovate on the future. it's true. Like someone like, let's say, cause like we're going to talk music and I don't know what that will, so you're going to laugh at me a little bit, like Nirvana can come out with their power chords and they can make hits and they can sell a lot of music.

Shawn (46:04.195)
No.

Shawn (46:23.875)
Hahaha

Matt (46:27.096)
But they're not innovative, they're not doing anything, they're not building.

Shawn (46:29.026)
Yeah, but okay, let me respond. But you could never teach Kurt Cobain's ability to create a melody that is both unique and poppy. Like the melodies that he created, he didn't learn that. He got no education to teach him that. And no educator could really learn that. That has to come from his own pursuits and passions.

Matt (46:43.758)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (46:48.832)
Right. Right.

Matt (46:54.19)
But if he had an education, he could have done it better. That's what I'm saying.

Shawn (46:59.778)
No, I don't know, I totally disagree, 100 % disagree. Just because he has bachelor's degrees from some college doesn't mean that he would have made better music.

Matt (47:02.336)
I think the problem is that

Matt (47:09.59)
No, no, no, no. So that's what I'm saying. So you guys think that we as educators look down on when we say these people are not educated, you think that we're saying that with some derision or disdain, like somehow we're better than them. No, no.

Shawn (47:14.862)
No.

Shawn (47:22.254)
Well, first I don't like that you would categorize, put people in boxes and say, are those of us who are educators and those who are, like the idea that there's this, like the nature of the question you asked, I don't like these polls when they say, okay, there's a divide happening. These people vote this way, these people vote this way. I don't think that's gonna be, I can't be 100 % accurate. That is, that's pretty, that's simplification.

Matt (47:29.059)
You

Matt (47:46.434)
But you can see it, you can see it in, let's just say in the policies, right? There were a lot of people that thought that Joe Biden was gonna solidify the young vote forever by forgiving student debts. And what he didn't anticipate was a lot of people thought that because the young voters, if you forgive their student debts, then they're grateful to you forever. Well, sure.

Shawn (48:00.216)
Who thought that? No one? Okay. Go ahead.

Shawn (48:07.716)
subribe. There was no substance behind that. They were bribing people to vote for him. There's no substance. Anyway, go ahead. Duh.

Matt (48:14.094)
But it didn't work, right? Because there's this other group of young people, especially I think since the pandemic, have like, they've been very cognizant of like this choice. They're very intentional about opting out of higher education. And when Joe Biden says, I'm gonna forgive student debt, it makes these people really, really angry. Like, how dare you forgive their debt? Like there's this, I think there's this divide that goes beyond just degree, not degree. Like there's these people that,

are really anti-education, really anti-degrees.

Shawn (48:46.148)
No, they're not. There's nobody anti-education. Okay, here's what it feels like to me, Matt. You tell me if this analogy works. If I came to you, let's say our government came to you and says, hey, we're gonna modify capitalism. And what we're gonna do is this. We are going to say that there's a certain type of business that you can buy, that the citizens of the US can buy from. because if you buy from them, then there's trust, there's quality, but there's a certain type of business that you shouldn't buy from.

because it's just not as good a quality, it doesn't have as good a regulations. For example, a mom and pop shop in your local, like don't go to those restaurants. You will only go to restaurants that are on a list that we approve, that is controlled. Don't go to your local stores or your local restaurants or your local, no, because they're not qualified. So it's the same thing there, Matt. So if someone came to you and says you can only, in order to really get true quality or goods,

you can only shop at these stores. You would be like, that's ridiculous, that is so stupid, I love that my, so it's the same thing, the university system is trying to create for themselves a qualification that is not real, it doesn't exist. I can get an education in so many other ways. Don't tell me how I'm gonna get my education.

Matt (49:47.894)
No, I agree. Yeah.

Matt (50:00.184)
Sure.

So then the statistics that are out there that say a person with a college degree will earn a million dollars in their life more than a person without a college degree, or a person with a college degree is gonna have a life expectancy three years longer than a person without a college degree. No, those stats are out there. Those stats, well, mean, we show them to every high school senior who's trying to decide should I go to college or not? We say,

Shawn (50:17.816)
Here say, show me those stats. Here say, show me. Where are they? Show me, name one.

Matt (50:29.782)
Of course you should go to college because you're gonna make more money. Sure, sure, sure.

Shawn (50:31.268)
Do you show the references? Do you show the references or do you say those statements? Show me the references before I would even engage in that discussion.

Matt (50:37.484)
Well, it's in, it's in the Atlantic Arnold article that David Brooks has. I have a link to it for listeners that are interested, but, I actually think.

Shawn (50:42.18)
Well, you can't bring those stats out unless we have verified them with references.

Matt (50:48.312)
But I actually think that even if those stats are true, which they are, but it also doesn't tell you, it also doesn't tell you anything, right? Cause don't you think it matters where you get your degree? Don't you think it matters what you get your degree in? And so those stats where you just sort of lump people into those categories like that, I don't think it actually, it's not actually an education that's giving you a million dollars more over the course of your lifetime. It's probably, no, that's what I'm trying to say. I think that people without a college degree feel like,

Shawn (51:10.084)
Well, I'm glad you can see that. I'm glad you can see that. It surprised me.

Matt (51:17.698)
People who are way educated look down on them in ways that we don't look down on them.

Shawn (51:22.904)
Well, this is a perfect discussion, right? Because I don't have a college degree and you do and you are in education and I'm opposite. I'm an entrepreneur who...

Matt (51:27.532)
Yeah. Yeah. And you, you hate my expertise sometimes. No, you hate, you hate my hubris.

Shawn (51:33.9)
No, no, no, I don't. don't. I love your expertise. Absolutely love it. That's why I praise you all the time. I joke with him, I love it. What I don't like is the attitude. And I'm not saying you have this attitude. What I don't like is the attitude of, okay, hubris is a good word. I don't like the attitude of there's one way to get an education. There's those of us who are experts who know the truth.

Matt (51:48.142)
huh.

Shawn (52:03.052)
and those of you who are not, who don't know the truth. And so you need us. You need us to teach you the truth. There's a class of educators. I don't like that at all.

Matt (52:13.802)
I know you don't, but you're exactly the same way, Sean. When I start telling you about branding, you're like, shut up. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm like, no, no, no. Like I watched this YouTube video and I found this influencer and these are the things they talked about. And sometimes you'll even say to me, you found out about that word. Way to go, Matt. Like congratulations. You finally figured out that I'd.

Shawn (52:17.156)
What do mean?

Shawn (52:35.684)
I'll never show that to you.

Matt (52:39.774)
Whether or not you say it, know that you feel it inside. You're like, bravo, bravo. You know what we could do, Matt? You could just listen to me. You could just rely on my expertise and stop wasting your time trying to understand a world that I've already figured out.

Shawn (52:51.556)
Here's where you're dead wrong. I know for a fact that you could learn just as much or more about marketing and branding than I do without me. There's the difference. Educators think there's no way for anyone to succeed in life or to make a million dollars or to get an education without me, without my university, without my experience. And that arrogance and pride bleeds over into the students. Like they preach things that aren't, yeah, I mean everyone's gonna have their own spin or their own.

Matt (53:01.326)
Mmm.

Matt (53:15.608)
Mmm.

Shawn (53:20.718)
values or what they believe is true. And with that kind of arrogance, they are preaching it to kids and kids leave going, wow, the statement that you made represents it. People will come to me and we will show things how they really are. And when they learn how they really are, they will leave educated.

Matt (53:29.966)
Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Matt (53:38.254)
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Well, but there are things that like it takes a really long time to learn certain things and you need someone to guide you, right? Like, no, you do. Like it's really hard. Listen, the book that I wrote about religion and politics is written at a really high PhD level. And I could, if I'm there with you to walk you through that book, you're going to understand it way differently than if you just pick it up and read it on your own. So I'm not saying you can't.

Shawn (53:46.572)
No, you do not.

Shawn (53:55.48)
Right. It's a, yeah.

Shawn (54:03.449)
I okay, I agree because you're focusing on a very niche and specialized topic that you put a lot of research in. But guess what, Matt, I don't know if this will hurt you or be painful.

Matt (54:11.725)
Yeah.

Matt (54:16.546)
It won't hurt me.

Shawn (54:19.076)
Sam, even Sam could put as much time and effort into doing it. Maybe it would take a little longer, maybe it would take a little different approach, but the outcome is going to be actually just as fascinating. He doesn't need your degree or someone's degree in order to figure out a way to analyze a subject and write a book about it.

Matt (54:30.637)
Okay.

Matt (54:39.214)
No, that's true. That's true. No, so I'm not trying to say like we're the, we're the only ones, we're the gatekeepers and we're the only ones with this special knowledge. I'm just saying like we have that special knowledge. And so people should just like say, you know what? I can learn from that. But I, you know what I honestly think Sean? I think too many people in this world have decided I need a degree. I'm going to get a degree. And they cheat themselves by trying to find the easiest, cheapest, fastest way to get a degree. And then when they're, and then when they're done, they say,

Shawn (55:05.314)
because they believe, yeah.

Matt (55:08.214)
I didn't get anything from that. That was a total waste of my time. And I say, that's because it's about the effort that you put into it. You're only going to get out of something what you put into it. And so if you're trying to

Shawn (55:17.892)
But isn't that also, but I love what you're saying and I totally agree, but isn't that also in the essence of your question of shouldn't the US government really promote higher education and getting your degree? If you ask the question differently and said shouldn't they promote education and the various ways that people learn and the various ways one can get an education, then I totally agree. But to promote and prop up the university and degree system, no way, because what you just said.

Someone gets a degree, yeah, I agree. So many people walk away with that paper and that title to no value. I'm telling you, Matt, I have had so many interns. I've tried so many interns. And the education that they got in my field is so pathetic. I'm not kidding, Matt, so pathetic that it's embarrassing. Like they're not learning real world things. They're just getting a degree that doesn't matter. So prop that up, no way.

Matt (55:46.008)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (56:05.154)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shawn (56:15.724)
I disagree. Don't prop it up.

Matt (56:17.486)
Sean, that gets to be the last word because I agree with you, by the way. I actually don't think the government should be trying to help people get a college degree. I think that we should be helping people get educated. And I think we should do, I don't know why we got rid of shop class. I don't know why we got rid of all these vocational programs in schools. I don't know why high school got rid of all of these other things that help people develop into a human being. And they focus so much on math and English and science scores, things that don't necessarily help people develop the way that

Shawn (56:31.566)
Bye!

Matt (56:46.658)
they might choose to develop. So I don't know. I think we should focus more on education broadly than on degrees and very specific kinds of achievement.

Shawn (56:56.108)
I love it. And to just be nice and add on top of that, I have learned more from you about political science than anyone on this planet. So you are an expert and I do agree with experts who are humble and kind and good and who, but you just in that statement said your degree doesn't matter, your education does.

Matt (57:19.822)
Yes, I agree with that 100%. Hey, good job, Sean. Hey Sam, wish you could have joined with us. This week you're just gonna be a listener like everybody else. Your opinion on this week's episode matters as much as your vote did in the 2024 presidential election. Hey everybody else, talk to you next week.

Shawn (57:21.782)
I love it. Okay, good.