December 20, 2023; The Fall of Giuliani & the Fall of the GOP, Abortion in Texas, The Invisible Hand, Bureaucrats vs Billionaires

Matt (00:01.427)
Welcome to another exciting episode of The Latter Day Lens. We've got some fun stuff in the mail back today. So the first one is a little bit spiritual. So let me think. Where we talk, oh, Sean shared a verse last time about the hearts of men will fail them. And.

shawn (00:19.209)
Yeah, and I kind of have always interpreted that as, just because of what precedes the verse, it talks about how the calamities and the scary things that will be happening preceding the coming of Christ, that I see signs today of people's hearts failing them as far as confidence or anxiety, being scared. But yeah, this listener takes a different stance.

Sam (00:19.589)
Oh.

Matt (00:43.507)
Yeah, so there's a talk from Elder Holland in October of 2009. So they said that they immediately thought of that talk. This is what Elder Holland says, there is one kind of latter day destruction that has always sounded to me more personal than public, more individual than collective, a warning, perhaps more applicable inside the church than outside it. The savior warned that in the last days, even those of the covenant, the very elect could be deceived by the enemy of truth.

If we think of this as a form of spiritual destruction, it may cast light on another latter-day prophecy. Think of the heart as the figurative center of our faith, the poetic location of our loyalties and our values, then consider Jesus' declaration that in the last days, men's hearts shall fail them." So does that mean that he's saying that verse could mean being deceived?

shawn (01:38.893)
I think it does. And I love it. I love the thought process. I think there's not a, I don't know if there's a right or wrong in this, but I do think that it has there ever not been a time on this earth where men's hearts have not, if the interpretation of men's hearts, failing them is in fact regarding faith, right. And being deceived, then has there ever been a time on the earth that hasn't been the case? I don't think so.

Sam (01:43.222)
Thanks for watching.

Matt (02:00.715)
But I think that there are prophecies that in the last days there would be more dis more deception, right? Or maybe more temptation. Like the, if the very elect could be deceived, then maybe there's more of that happening in the last days. More misinformation, maybe.

shawn (02:15.745)
But do we sometimes get a little fixated on us now and think that everything is about us now, whereas, for example, a lot of the references to like the, you know, the drought of the word or the, that could be talking about the great apostasy, for example. But I don't know, maybe it is, maybe it is. I mean, do you guys think that today more elect are failing and being deceived than 100 years ago and during the time of Christ?

Matt (02:43.039)
Well, I'm going to go with the first thing where you said, do we maybe think too much about us? I don't think I think too much about us. I just think too much about me and myself. Yeah. There's probably a tendency where we, we make everything about us. There's probably that tendency, but there are prophecies that there would be more destruction, more wickedness, more. So, um,

shawn (02:51.381)
Hehe

Sam (02:52.398)
Hehehe

shawn (03:03.645)
Yeah, that's true.

Sam (03:05.578)
When you talk about that, I think of the song that it says, you think this song is about you. What is that song? Who sings that song? You probably think this song is about you. Oh no, no. You're so vain. That's exactly right. That's the scriptural verse I'm dropping here. No, it's a 90s song.

shawn (03:12.961)
Taylor Swift. It must be Taylor Swift.

Matt (03:13.407)
Uh, you're so vain, you're so vain, I bet you think this song is about you.

shawn (03:18.837)
that must be Taylor Swift. Is that Taylor Swift?

Matt (03:24.891)
Yeah, I can't believe Sean doesn't know that song. Don't you remember that song playing in the reenac, like the bazaar outside of your apartment in Ukraine, like nonstop? It was, yeah. Yeah.

shawn (03:25.263)
Oh. Ha ha ha.

Thank you.

shawn (03:34.437)
No doubt was playing. I don't think of anything.

Sam (03:37.038)
It's written by Carly Simon it looks like. So it was the 1990s. Might even be 80s. So yeah.

shawn (03:39.021)
Oh, what? That's 80s. Oh, 90s.

Matt (03:39.943)
Yeah.

Matt (03:44.127)
That's actually my theme song. Like I do think everything's about me and I am probably that thing. Well.

shawn (03:50.525)
But I think the listener's answer is the best, right? He brought in D&C, or she brought in D&C 636, look unto me in every thought, doubt not, fear not. And I love what comes after that in 37, behold the wounds which pierced my side, and also the prints of the nails in my hands and feet. Be faithful, keep my commandments, ye shall inherit the kingdom of God. Remember Christ always is the answer in the anecdote to the interpretation either way, right? If man's heart's failing them means I have anxiety and I'm worried, okay, then think of the Savior.

and turn to Him and that will be solved. Or if it means being deceived, okay, think of the Savior. Remember Him always and that'll be solved. So I like their answer.

Sam (04:25.614)
That is an awesome point, Sean. Matt, I'm excited. I'm anxious to get to our second piece of mail here because it has to do with a comment I made last week and people are back at taking a shot at me. So let's do this one.

shawn (04:37.359)
Hehehehehehe

Matt (04:38.931)
Okay, another listener writes, Sam asked, why should we hate someone just because they make a lot of money? Isn't it just as silly to admire someone because they make a lot of money? We admire people who are admirable and we're discovering that virtue and wealth are just not well correlated. The myth of the meritocracy is dying. Also, if Sam thinks that we don't admire people who make lots of money, he's not paying very close attention.

Sam (04:44.598)
We shouldn't.

Matt (05:06.111)
We have entire magazines and websites dedicated to worshiping people with money. If Elon Musk were poor, no one would ever listen to him. Not on any topic ever.

shawn (05:16.825)
Hehehe

Sam (05:17.698)
So I love an old movie way back when where it says, never accept the premise of the question. And this question itself is so littered with prejudice towards that viewpoint, it's fun. So first of all, it wasn't me that says we should or shouldn't admire someone based on money. The comment was made that because of the disparity in pay, people are more critical of CEOs and we shouldn't look up to them. And I simply said, that's fact right now

Matt (05:18.374)
Hahaha

Matt (05:23.237)
Hahaha

Sam (05:47.486)
not only do people not look up to people that make a lot of money. We also talked about people not looking up to people that have higher education, that have had any high level of success in life. There's a prejudice against success. And there's also just sort of a, I don't know if it's, you know, people are jealous of success, but there, but there's, there's not a desire to emulate success and repeat success. And that's where I have an issue. So I think money almost has nothing to do with it.

education for those that are high education has little to do with it. It's just people wanting to emulate others that have followed a path and been successful in it. So.

Matt (06:27.927)
Do you think that it's Elon Musk's money that makes people listen to him?

Sam (06:31.946)
I think Elon Musk has a huge megaphone in the world. And there are other people at times that have had a similar megaphone. It's his money. It's his success. Look, Elon Musk isn't extraordinarily successful on his own. Like he took some very big bets that paid off extremely well. And now he's emboldened by the success of those bets and his comment at that press forum the other day about Twitter, about Twitter not needing advertisers was both bold.

shawn (06:33.249)
Thank you.

Sam (07:01.762)
gently reckless for a privately held company, but also was very true. He said, look, they will kill Twitter if they pull their advertising. And I want people to know that there's a cause and an effect. So I think he's very bold. Um, but his success isn't guaranteed forever. You know, he, he could still fail. So.

Matt (07:20.711)
I think people like Elon Musk because of what he says. The wealth gives him maybe some credibility, right? Like if somebody were like, you're a moron, you're an idiot, you're a conspiracy theory peddler, he can say, I'm also the richest person in the world. And that gives him some credibility, right? But I do think that people that like Elon Musk, it's his message that they like. It's not his money that makes them like him. Don't you think?

Sam (07:47.638)
Yeah, I think that's possibly true. I think, you know, you look at Warren Buffett. I mean, there's, I've been to Omaha, Nebraska. It's a small Midwestern city that is built on what that man has done to succeed. And people want to emulate that. They gather there annually for their investor report and meetings surrounding that. And they want to replicate what he's done. I think that's smart. You know, it's interesting, this question, cause it has come up two or three times.

Matt (07:52.372)
Yeah.

Matt (08:02.303)
Yeah.

Sam (08:16.706)
When I read this, Matt, you send this out in advance. I actually went back and looked and thought, what is it that makes people admirable, right? And there's actually lists that get created every single year, one by Forbes, another by Time and Newsweek, Inc. Magazine does one, I think Gallup does one. And it's interesting, there's a lot of business people there, there's politicians there, there's religious leaders. And as I was looking at the list,

It strikes me that people who are admired probably have some common traits, but the people that make a businessman or what makes a businessman admirable may differ from what makes a religious leader admirable or a politician admirable. And maybe at some point in some future episode, we could talk about what are the character traits that make someone worthy of our admiration. But I also think it's not absolute.

Matt (09:02.346)
Yeah.

Sam (09:13.57)
There are business people that will make mistakes. We've talked about celebrities that have been worthy of admiration. They've done stupid things and they remove that. So it's not a forever, but there are lessons we can learn from successful people if we're humble enough to learn the lessons. If we have so much ego that we refuse to learn from them because of their money or their hubris or the way they talk, then that's on us, right? And we'll probably be less successful as a result, I think.

Matt (09:19.135)
Yeah.

shawn (09:42.786)
You're just saying don't judge people, right? Get to know the contents and don't judge them, kind of what you're saying.

Sam (09:47.566)
I think my thought in life is be curious about what leads other people to have success.

shawn (09:53.673)
And don't be dazzled by their money, their fame, their politics.

Sam (09:57.418)
No, they're human. By the way, even Elon Musk is human. Like he's the dudes in the dudes insane. Like he thinks he thinks he's, you know, he's had kids with so many different people, he thinks he's going to, he believes in the Mormon belief that we're going to multiply and replenish the earth. He just thinks he can do it with a bunch of different women and he doesn't have to have any accountability for it. Right? Like his personal ethics are challenged when you look at it through the lens of our belief.

Matt (10:02.872)
No!

shawn (10:03.904)
What?

Sam (10:27.298)
But there are things we can learn from someone like him that could make us better in business, right? Or better in public communications, right? We may not agree with his personal or private morality. Yeah.

Matt (10:41.499)
Okay, well said. I get to go first on the thought provoker this week. So recently, Rudy Giuliani was ordered to pay over $148 million to two Georgia election workers for defamation. This all stems from lies he told about the 2020 election being stolen in Georgia. More specifically, he claimed that these two women were passing a USB drive back and forth, when in fact, it was just like Mentos or something like that. But...

Sam (10:42.925)
Alright.

Nice.

Matt (11:10.335)
the attacks that came on these women, it ruined their lives. And they won a civil case against Rudy Giuliani. So as a lifelong Republican, I see Rudy Giuliani as a metaphor for what happened to the GOP. In 2001, after the September 11th attacks, Giuliani was America's mayor. He was Time Magazine's person of the year. In 2008, he was the front runner for the GOP nomination for president.

He was seen as this moderate Republican who could woo independence and moderate Democrats and help grow the Republican party. Um, and now he's a joke. He's a fraud. He's a liar. He has no respect. So my question is, how did this happen to poor Rudy Giuliani and does the GOP risk having the same thing happen to them?

Sam (11:59.382)
Matt, I love this question and it's funny you say this because I saw this headline and I had the exact same thought in my head. What a fall from the hero status. And here was my thought as I was turning this around in my head. Giuliani benefited from right time, right place, right personality. He's got this kind of Napoleonic sort of total control, you know, complete certainty and chaos.

Matt (12:09.288)
Yeah!

Sam (12:28.586)
And that served him well in the moments that followed September 11th. Much like some great wartime presidents have benefited from their approach. I even think of who, who is, uh, who is the, uh, in World War II in England?

Matt (12:43.883)
Chamberlain or Churchill.

Sam (12:46.082)
Churchill, right? Churchill did great as a wartime political leader and he failed post-war, right? And Chamberlain, the same thing, right? He couldn't hack it during war. Giuliani, he benefited from that moment and it made him a star. But the personal characteristics that make success made him fail. Like, he probably is still the same person he.

Matt (13:04.469)
Mm-hmm.

shawn (13:07.222)
But Matt.

Sam (13:13.99)
was at September 11th, but now he's being seen for the fraud and the liar that he is.

shawn (13:18.365)
Yeah, but Matt, you framed it as a Republican fall. I don't think Giuliani was ever like a famous, and no one would ever say, hey, name some true, good, old-fashioned conservative Republicans. No one would ever say Rudy Giuliani. Like Sam, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't, but he wasn't very political. He was like Sam is saying. He was the guy at the right place at the right time who had some leadership abilities.

Matt (13:23.327)
Yeah, to me.

Matt (13:35.627)
For sure, in 2008? That's who he was in 2008. He was the guy.

shawn (13:47.393)
Even before 9-11 right to clean up the crime in New York City that had nothing to do with his republicanism Neither did the 9-11 response. So I don't think you can say he fell as a I don't think he was the example of a republican

Matt (13:50.58)
Right, right.

Sam (13:54.771)
No, it-

Matt (13:59.027)
He was the law and order. He was the fiscal conservative in the city of New York. He was the...

Sam (13:59.126)
He was held. Yeah, he.

He's the reason we say Republicans clean cities up and rid them of crime. He's the reason we say people, oh yeah, yes.

Matt (14:07.776)
Yeah.

shawn (14:08.669)
Was it really? Is it really? I just remember those times never seeing him as, like I never even, I wasn't as political, but I never saw him as a Republican guy. I didn't even know. All I knew is he was a good leader doing good things, but you're saying that no, he really was known as a Republican example.

Matt (14:10.464)
He went after.

Matt (14:23.987)
He was, yeah, in the Reagan administration. He's the guy that went after the mafia in New York city. He's the, so if you want to say Republicans are tough on crime, Republicans use fiscal conservative principles to clean up cities and to bring growth into, right? Because when Giuliani comes into New York city, Manhattan is a little bit of scary place and not a lot of investment in that area. And he turns it into an economic powerhouse. So he was at the time.

shawn (14:43.146)
Okay, so Matt, so...

shawn (14:51.495)
Okay, so, so Matt, if you're saying he was a bright shining star as a Republican because of his fiscal conservative values, because of his law and order, and you're saying now he's fallen from that, you're not tying those two, right? Are you saying that, well, the Republicans are no longer the law and order or the fiscally? Okay, there you go. There you go. So, there's the answer then. How has he fallen? He's abandoned the Republican ideals of fiscal conservative.

Matt (15:00.245)
Yeah.

Matt (15:06.739)
Yeah, yeah, I am saying that. Yeah, I'm saying.

shawn (15:18.421)
the values and of law and order. So I'm just saying you've answered your own question, right? Your question was how is it that he fell? How is it that the Republican Party has fallen? You've just stated it because they've abandoned those conservative values.

Matt (15:19.241)
But what I'm saying, but the Republican Party is doing the exact same thing, right?

Matt (15:31.563)
So that, so my question is, does the Republican party, if they follow the path of Giuliani, do they risk having the same thing happen to them as a party, right? The same thing that, so why does Rudy Giuliani choose to go down that path? Well, because there's this allure of these people out there that have these particular sets of views to say, I'm gonna go chase after those voters. I'm gonna go chase after those kinds of people. And I'm gonna abandon this stuff,

took me to a certain place and I'm going to sort of shift so that I can appeal to this broader set or this different set of voters. The Republican party seems to be doing the exact same thing.

shawn (16:09.921)
So that's an interesting comment because last week we talked about Mitt Romney and how he not being willing to play the political game has destroyed his political career, right? When Mitt Romney sticks to principles and values and not willing to play the game, he's out. And so you're saying that Rudy Giuliani and the Republican Party, they're not sticking to values and ideas and principles. They're chasing votes and they're chasing, they're playing the political game. That's what you're saying, yes?

Matt (16:26.08)
Yeah.

Matt (16:35.355)
Yeah, some, some of them are. And I just think that they risk having that same thing happen to them. I don't know.

shawn (16:42.197)
So what do they do? Because it backfired with Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney wasn't chasing the votes and playing the game. He stuck to his ideals and principles and he's gone.

Matt (16:52.187)
I think that on the left and on the right, there are individuals in the United States of America that, um, are, uh, not desirable, right? There's like, there's just some nasty people on both sides. And I think that it's tempting and easy to chase after that group of supporters because it's like, I could ask you, okay, what do I have to do to get the darkest side of the GOP to support me?

And you know exactly what kind of evil, terrible, horrible things you have to say to raise money from them and to get votes from them. And I think that Giuliani went that route to some extent.

shawn (17:32.961)
So are you not encouraged when you listen to these debates, people like Nikki Haley, people like Chris Christie, are you not encouraged and say, hey, these guys actually sound like the old party and these guys are somewhat of leaders, no?

Matt (17:43.192)
I do not think that Ron DeSantis sounds anything like the old party. Okay. Uh yeah I like what they say but you know there's other people on that debate stage. Oh I am yeah if only they had a shot at the nomination right?

shawn (17:47.325)
I didn't, no, I said Nikki Haley and Chris Christie.

shawn (17:55.997)
I'm just asking you about those two. I'm asking if you're encouraged by those guys.

shawn (18:04.125)
Didn't Nikki Haley gain some great like what state did she just gain a bunch of points against New Hampshire?

Matt (18:09.039)
New Hampshire, right? New Hampshire governor. Yeah, we'll see. She's she's still down by 50 points, right? She's down by like, it'll be it's not impossible, but it's unlikely.

shawn (18:22.253)
But why aren't you getting full on behind, you just mentioned, I don't like the direction the Republican party's going. I'm a lifelong Republican. So why not get full heartedly behind someone like Nikki Haley who you admit has the values?

Matt (18:29.245)
Yeah.

Matt (18:34.335)
because she's a sellout. She's a sellout. She, yeah, I don't know. It's a different topic if we go into why I don't like Nikki Haley. There's, there's.

shawn (18:39.642)
Oh, oh, so you're quoting, you're quoting Vivek Ramaswamy. Now your true colors are coming out.

Matt (18:46.683)
No, no, she's not a sellout for the reasons that he says. In my opinion, she's a sellout because in the Trump administration, she did things that I thought were unethical and immoral because anyhow, it's a different discussion why I wouldn't support Nikki Haley. Okay, Sam, you're up next.

shawn (18:49.814)
Hahaha

shawn (19:02.305)
Okay.

Sam (19:07.242)
All right. So here's my topic. Let's turn to Texas. Let's remember back to, we had a conversation a while back about Roe v. Wade, that being overturned, Roe v. Wade was turned the decision about abortions were sent back to states. States put laws into effect to either outlaw or protect abortion rights. And in the state of Texas, they banned abortions except where the

the health of the baby or life of the parent, uh, it is at risk. And this past week, uh, I'm trying to pull this article up here. One moment, please. I got stuck on Nikki Haley and her polling. She, Nikki, Nikki Haley's poll. Yeah. Nikki Haley's polling has come up, but she's nowhere near Trump anyway. So yeah, no, she's hired in that, but, uh, she's still a ways off. So yeah.

Matt (19:51.232)
Ha ha

That's a good place to get stuck.

shawn (19:55.905)
Hehehe

Matt (19:59.287)
She's at 18% maybe.

Matt (20:03.959)
But Trump's at 52.

Sam (20:06.163)
Exactly.

shawn (20:06.273)
She has an interesting stance on abortion to stay on topic. She does.

Sam (20:09.418)
Yeah, yeah. So, uh, so this Texas, uh, woman, uh, her baby, the fetus was diagnosed with something called trisomy 18 and it causes abnormalities in the development of the brain, heart and other internal organs. And so here's the stats in almost all cases, according to this, and let's assume this is true. So we don't have to debate whether or not the fetus is truly at risk in almost all cases, at least 95%, the pregnancies and then miscarriage and stillbirth, birth, according to the Cleveland clinic.

Matt (20:09.628)
Oh, does she? Okay.

Sam (20:39.294)
Well, some people live for years with the condition life expectancy for most is short and those children who live past their first year may face severe challenges. And they go on to talk about how not only is there a peril to the, to the baby, but also in the case of the mom, there's huge health risks, including for whatever reason, an inability to get pregnant later. So initially her doctor went and filed for some sort of an exception.

got it, it was taken away. A lower court said, hey, you can have the abortion. And then the Texas state Supreme court came back and said, you can't have it. And ultimately while they were going back and forth, she decides to leave the state and have the abortion out of state. So from a latter day lens standpoint, we members of the church of Jesus Christ, a latter day saints protect life. I mean, we value life. What is the latter day lens on this Texas case?

Should she have been allowed to pursue and have an abortion in the state of Texas or does that violate our beliefs?

Matt (21:48.311)
So Mitt Romney was asked about this on meet the press last week before the Texas Supreme court ruled. And I thought what he said was in line with my moral principles, right? He said abortion is wrong. Uh, abortion is something that should be discouraged at the same time. Uh, if the life of the mother is in danger, um, then a woman should be allowed to make a choice that would save her own life. And I think generally I come down on the side of a woman should have the, like to me, this is a medical decision.

Sam (21:52.05)
I saw it. Yeah.

Matt (22:18.199)
And I have my moral views and my moral principles about abortion generally, but I don't have the training or the knowledge to get involved in a medical decision between a woman and her doctor. What he said that I thought was really interesting when he was kind of pressed on it is he said, we should trust the courts to make the appropriate decision. And in my opinion, like the Texas Supreme Court has showed that we can't trust the courts. And, yeah, go ahead, Sean.

shawn (22:38.772)
Ugh.

shawn (22:46.898)
But doesn't that show the value of the United States, what's it called, Matt, when the states have about, doesn't that show the value and the wisdom in federalism? I know sometimes you have an opinion about that, you guys, but the idea that these are very complicated moral, legal issues. And sometimes, like you said, Matt, I don't trust the Supreme Courts in this state or that state because of their politics, whatever.

Matt (22:53.751)
Federalism.

Matt (23:12.595)
Yeah.

shawn (23:13.957)
Isn't this great that there's choices in the states that we live in? She can actually travel somewhere else. Is it inconvenience? Of course it is. Is it harder? Yes, absolutely. But it gives agency. God values the agency. So doesn't this speak to the value of federalism?

Sam (23:29.674)
Yeah, but the problem is, is the only way that works is if states around her or accessible to her still make it legal. So she could leave the state. Yeah.

Matt (23:36.215)
She's wealthy enough. She's wealthy enough that she has the option, right? There are lots of, so, so in, in most cases federalism just makes it so that wealth inequality matters more for who gets the care. But it is true, Sean, in president Oak's talk on the constitution, when he was talking about divinely inspired principles in the constitution, federalism is one of them. He specifically mentions as divinely inspired because the states are laboratories of democracy.

shawn (23:37.82)
Were they in this case?

Oh, that's a lot of money then.

Matt (24:05.255)
and states can be innovative in policy. But I think that this illustrates a time when states can be bad, right? And we know that many states have a history of racial prejudice, of gender-based prejudice, of sexual orientation-based prejudice. And so federalism has its evil side too. And I can't comprehend a court telling a woman

I don't care what your doctor says to you, you can't have that procedure because we as the courts know what's best for you. Like, I can't comprehend that. But it is true that federalism is, as a principle, divinely inspired, but it just seems so bad in this particular case, right? Not this woman, it ends up fine. She has money, she has means, she can go get an abortion somewhere else. But there are...

shawn (24:57.237)
You're saying in the case of a less fortunate, less wealthy woman in the same situation in Texas, who wouldn't be able to afford to leave is in a really bad scenario, is what you're saying.

Matt (25:08.647)
Yeah, Texas has large borders and it's hard to get out of their borders sometimes. Right. And where are you going to go? So Oklahoma is not going to let you have the abortion. Louisiana is not going to let you have the abortion. There's actually a highway there. The numbers say that they're. Go ahead. I don't know where she went to get her abortion. She probably flew somewhere. Right. But if. Yeah.

shawn (25:24.097)
Where did she go? Where did, oh.

Sam (25:30.282)
Yeah, we don't know. It's not published.

Matt (25:34.563)
Most of them end up going to Illinois or Kansas because Kansas allows abortions. So sometimes they make it to Kansas. Illinois has more liberal laws. Some of them are probably going to go to Mexico. But you're endangering the life. A woman whose life is already in danger, you're endangering it more.

shawn (25:53.185)
So Matt, to bring politics back into this, the libertarian view would say, let people choose. I can disagree with the morality of something, but the respect of agency is more important. And letting, like you said, having legal, judges and politicians decide is not a good thing. So the libertarian view wouldn't say, laissez faire, let them choose. Let them choose to sin, let them choose to not sin, let them choose.

Matt (26:21.391)
My view is that it's good for society to find ways that we can minimize abortions because I think abortion generally is immoral and we should look for other options whenever we can. But if you just look at the raw numbers, like the statistics, Roe v. Wade reduced abortions in the United States. Before there was Roe v. Wade, there were fewer abortions, or there were more abortions in the United States before Roe v. Wade.

than there were after Roe v Wade. And once they got rid of Roe v Wade, there are more abortions now than there were prior to the decision that overturned Roe v Wade. So it doesn't make logical sense that having this law that is uniform across the states in regulating abortion would somehow reduce abortion. But statistically, numerically, there were fewer abortions when Roe v Wade was the law of the land than there are now. So.

shawn (27:15.969)
That makes no sense to me. I don't know where you're calling, that makes zero sense to me. I don't understand what the heck you're saying. Where?

Matt (27:19.727)
I know, but those are what the numbers show, right? In the United States, there are more abortions now than there were prior to overturning Roe v. Wade. And there are...

shawn (27:29.713)
Now that it's illegal federally, there are more abortions happening than there were in the last 30 years. What are you talking about? Okay, I'll research that.

Matt (27:35.635)
Yep. Yeah. I'm just saying like that's what the numbers are. You have Google it, Sean. You'll see. And, and, and it's also true that there were more abortions before 1972 when Roe v. Wade was passed. Roe v. Wade actually reduced abortions in the United States.

shawn (27:41.597)
All right.

shawn (27:48.437)
That can't be true.

That cannot be true. I'll do my research and I'll call you out if you're wrong. But okay. Sam.

Matt (27:54.727)
Yeah, yeah, we can talk about, right, so.

Sam (27:58.206)
What, what, what's, what's crazy when you think about like the impact to the upcoming election, like for a state to become so extreme, like it tugs at the heartstrings of the most reasonable person out there, this idea that a state legislature or a judge or someone else can make a medical decision that could potentially harm the life of a person that is so anti, it seems to be Republican and conservative and, and just reeks of, you know, government.

you know, meddling in, in person, in a person's personal life. And, uh, it's crazy to me, hopefully Texas figures out how to moderate it a little bit. So it's, it's more palatable because if they don't, and if the Democrats figure out how to seize on this as a real, uh, element of their, uh, presidential run that they're going to win on this, this is something that nobody anywhere in the country wants to see something like this happen. This lady wants to have kids. She.

wants to be able to have the ability to get pregnant again. And, and, and a federal judge is trying to take that ability away from her. That that's what's crazy about where we are right now is it's so anti Republican conservative aside from the abortion issue, right? And, and, and in the extreme, in the extreme position, they're going to, they're going to lose on it. So, um, Matt, for, for bringing up the statistic that blew Sean's mind, you get, uh,

Matt (29:14.591)
Yeah.

Sam (29:25.898)
You get all the points, all the points today. So thank you. You're welcome.

Matt (29:27.193)
Yes! I was so excited to have points. Thank you, Sam. All right, Sean, you're up. Oh.

shawn (29:33.557)
I'll give them to you conditionally once I verify your what seem to be wacko stats.

Matt (29:37.28)
Yeah, Google it.

Sam (29:38.514)
We don't verify stats here. You can say whatever you want and we accept it.

Matt (29:40.844)
I'm confident, Sean. I wouldn't say it unless I were confident. It's true. I'll put the link in the show notes for anybody who wants to, you don't have to wait for Sean to look it up. I'll just put the link so people will know.

shawn (29:41.588)
Hahaha

Sam (29:45.247)
Yeah.

shawn (29:52.489)
I think I'll study it and then I'll send an email into thelatterdaylens at gmail.com. Correct, all right. Okay, so I'm up. Have you guys heard of the invisible hand? Do you know what the invisible hand is?

Matt (29:56.315)
Oh, you'll be a listener that wants to write a comment? Oh, okay. Yeah.

Sam (30:02.476)
You are.

Matt (30:07.343)
Yes, Sean. I had to read Adam Smith in college. You know, Sean, if ever, if ever you're having a hard time sleeping at night, you're like, Oh man, I cannot calm my mind. Just pull up Adam Smith, just start reading about the invisible hand and

shawn (30:19.174)
I disagree.

shawn (30:23.986)
This is this from the this from this from the guy who sits on YouTube for 10 hours waiting for a star to go supernova.

Sam (30:24.43)
That's how I slept last night.

Matt (30:35.055)
I could fast forward that. That was actually exciting. I would rather watch a star almost go supernova than read Adam Smith. But tell us more about the invisible hands, Sean.

shawn (30:42.654)
How dare you? Adams, how can you be a political scientist and not at least respect Adam Smith?

Matt (30:50.688)
Uh, I really.

Sam (30:50.81)
Sean, let me, let me guess. Does this have to a self-interested individuals and how people operate in their self-interest in political processes, systems?

shawn (30:57.193)
Way to Google it, Sam. It's a way to Google it, Sam. All right, I'll explain it. So, yes, that's right, Sam. Thank you for Googling that and reading off the internet. I'll read my definition, then I'll ask the question. So, the invisible hand is a metaphor created by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations that the founding fathers have quoted many, many times.

Matt (30:59.123)
And somehow competition is good for society because this invisible hand

Sam (31:01.738)
And that, and then some, somehow we turn incentive and interdependence, although I have to Google interdependence, but go ahead.

Matt (31:12.587)
Ha ha

shawn (31:23.817)
It's a metaphor for how in a free market, so Sam, this is really, I wanted to ask you this question, Sam. So in a free market economy, Adam Smith claims that it's, what drives it is self-interested individuals who understand that if I create value for you, Sam, and I want something from you, Sam, I have to create value for you and enter into a free exchange with you and then you'll give me value back. And the invisible hand,

Sam (31:28.904)
Oh, all right.

Sam (31:45.294)
Uh huh. Yeah.

Sam (31:50.062)
Okay, and I will, yeah.

shawn (31:52.573)
And the invisible hand is this metaphor for that kind of that interdependence that is created this incentivize it incentivizes us to produce the most value for our society. In other words self-interest is what drives us to free exchange with each other and create value with each other. And that's called the invisible hand. So this interdependence incentivize the producers to make what is socially necessary and the most value to society.

even though the primary concern may only be their own self interest. For example, the butcher, right? It's not by benevolence that the butcher is chopping up his meat. Right. It's by self interest. I want to sell this meat so Sam can have a nice meal on Sunday. So.

Sam (32:36.578)
As long as the butcher is smart. I mean, there's some obvious exceptions where people just aren't smart and they decide to try to offer something that has less value. But yes, I think you're right. Invisible or otherwise. What? I'm I have to Google benevolence, but I believe so. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Capitalism has natural selection. It weeds out stupid people. So that's.

shawn (32:47.92)
Out of benevolence you mean?

Matt (32:50.287)
No, not out of benevolence, out of stupidity sometimes, out of greed sometimes.

shawn (32:53.335)
Okay.

shawn (33:03.663)
Okay, so that is the heart. No, no, no. So Sam, that is the heart of my question. Okay? That's the heart of my question. So...

Matt (33:04.055)
According to Adam Smith.

Sam (33:09.47)
Yeah. I'm going to get in trouble for saying stupid people because it's probably not a nice thing.

Matt (33:15.58)
We qualified it according to Adam Smith.

Sam (33:18.215)
Okay, yes. Thank you.

shawn (33:18.929)
So if Sam, if this invisible hand is true, which I think it is, seeking our self-interest through free exchange with each other drives us to provide value for each other and it benefits society most. So is there a place in society for, as Sam calls the stupid, is there a place in society for people who are in professions, for example, that don't create value for trade? Or for example, people who don't have the ability to create value. So does capital, is the big thing that

Matt (33:22.784)
It's not.

Sam (33:22.967)
Yeah.

Matt (33:34.517)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (33:39.639)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (33:40.627)
Oh, for-

shawn (33:47.337)
that socialist accused capitalists of is your self-interest leaves behind the needy. It doesn't solve the charitable, you know what I mean? Because what it suggests, Sam, is the invisible hand is if we can all create value for each other, we all thrive. But for those who don't, so that's my question.

Matt (33:53.543)
It does.

Sam (34:04.514)
So that I don't get myself into trouble, I want to define what I mean by stupid people. All right. So I don't mean people that are disadvantaged or have challenges in life. What I do mean is people that look to prey on others and take advantage of others. And so they come up with cockamamie ridiculous ideas to make an easy dollar. And there's plenty of that in free market, right? Hey, I'm going to create a multi-level marketing based on dirt that I found in Malaysia because dirt in Malaysia is more healthy.

shawn (34:30.441)
So, okay.

Sam (34:32.482)
beneficial to Sean because Sean's in California and California has too much sun. So I import dirt from Malaysia, you're going to be better off and it's all ridiculous, made up fake value, right?

shawn (34:44.129)
So Sam, just to insert there, and Matt, that is exactly the invisible hand. The invisible hand would say, you're not truly providing a value there if you're being dishonest. If you're not truly providing a value, no one will buy your stuff, and it doesn't benefit you or yourself. You're self-interested to truly provide value for each other.

Matt (34:54.07)
Correct.

Sam (34:55.21)
Right.

Matt (35:00.832)
Sean

Sam (35:03.51)
So then your question is, does everyone that participates in the economy have something of value to offer if they attempt to offer something with a sincere heart and a real heart, right? Is that your question? Okay. Well, yeah.

Matt (35:14.891)
whole thing is a myth. The whole thing is a myth. First of all, Adam Smith never tested his idea. He never provided any empirical evidence for his idea. The whole thing is a thought experiment with no evidence for it.

shawn (35:17.783)
What's your math math?

Sam (35:25.082)
Yeah. I, I know, but this relates to the question that came up last week. So Sean said, Hey, Sam, do you believe that everybody that participates in economy has value and they have something to offer? So let's take it away from Adam Smith. And what was the question, the interdependence and, and benevolence and all that.

Matt (35:40.711)
Wait, wait, wait. First of all, let's talk about this question of do people actually, does capitalism actually incentivize people to produce things of value or of use to society? Okay, who are the top 10 YouTubers, Sean? Who are the, okay, is he creating anything of value for society?

Sam (35:51.078)
OK, you start there. OK.

shawn (35:52.701)
Yes it does Matt, yes of course it does.

shawn (35:57.717)
Mr. Beast, Mr. Beast. Okay, he's creating, I said no, and you changed my mind on it. You said he's an entertainer, pure and foremost. And you said the value he's creating is entertainment.

Sam (35:58.058)
Mr. Beast.

Sam (36:02.399)
Entertainment.

Matt (36:08.699)
Okay, Jake Paul, Logan Paul.

shawn (36:12.957)
Entertainment, you taught me this. I said no to these guys. You changed my mind on it. Correct, I argued that these people provide no value to society. You argued back and said the entertainment value, I watch it all the time, I would willing to pay my time.

Matt (36:15.524)
Hahaha

Their value is entertainment.

Matt (36:24.55)
Hahaha

Sam (36:27.502)
Sean Hannity, Sean Hannity Entertainment.

Matt (36:30.575)
Okay, so if the most highly compensated people in the group, in society, are going to be those who provide entertainment, that suggests perhaps the invisible hand is not treating things equally.

shawn (36:44.345)
Mm-mm, mm-mm, mm-mm. It has stopped making it about money. It's about value. In the, in the, the.

Sam (36:50.991)
Who has the invisible hand anyway? Where does this hand come from? And what's it doing? I think the federal-

shawn (36:56.009)
Yeah, that's his point is that it's nature. Nature shows that in society, if I provide look, Matt, if what you value is watching this dumb on YouTube doing these stupid games, you're going to lend your time, which equates to him money. So if you value it, he's providing the answer to it. That's a free exchange.

Matt (36:56.447)
So, so listen.

Matt (37:02.021)
value.

Matt (37:15.783)
What I value, I value.

Sam (37:16.142)
There's, there's a federal judge in Texas that would like to look into the value that the invisible hand gives. And I think that it would actually occupy their time in a very positive way. So that's my recommendation.

Matt (37:23.155)
I'm sorry.

shawn (37:27.277)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (37:28.063)
Listen Sean, I value having clean water more than anything else. I value sanitation and sewage services to take away my garbage.

shawn (37:36.097)
And what are you willing to exchange with whom to get that?

Matt (37:40.511)
So because those things are provided by the government, or that's the problem is people are not willing, you're not right, but you were not willing to pay fair value for that, right? There are people in society that are willing to just let the trash pile up, that are willing to have.

shawn (37:45.005)
So your taxes.

shawn (37:50.365)
Sure we would be, of course we would be. Matt, before government, yeah, but those, before government took those things over, that issue was solved. In today's age where technology and self-interest drives us to create value, of course we'd be able to solve clean water and trash. Of course we would.

Matt (38:12.199)
Okay, well I'll let Sam make his point, because I feel like I made my point.

shawn (38:15.83)
Hehehehe

Sam (38:16.246)
Listen, I don't get the whole hand thing. I don't understand any of that, but, but what I do get is the simple pragmatic approach that in free markets, everybody has the potential to deliver value that they can exchange, even the most disadvantaged. I think there's a way. Like you show me an example of an individual and say they can't participate in the free market and I don't believe that's correct. I think there's a place for everyone. And I think that's kind of what the conversation was last episode. So.

Matt (38:44.319)
Well, no, Sam, I'll tell you because for, I don't know, 10 years, my wife and I took care of adults with disabilities and there's a woman, she was, she's basically a part of our family now, but she cannot speak. She cannot write. She cannot do anything, right? She just cannot take care of herself. And so we take care of her.

Sam (38:51.912)
Yeah.

shawn (39:03.881)
Perfect example, Matt. This is a perfect example. Free exchange solved that.

Sam (39:05.162)
Wait, wait, Sean, hang on just a second. Hey, hang on just a second. Say what you just said.

Matt (39:13.035)
She cannot take care of herself, so we take care of her.

Sam (39:15.782)
Right. Who, who is we, you and your wife. And were you paid? Were you paid to do that? Right. Her existence, her existence created an income and a revenue for you, not to mention a relationship, which you have decided to further of your own accord outside the economic, uh, arrangement. Right? Like you still are friends and you, do you get paid today for that? No.

Matt (39:18.695)
Yeah, well guess where the money came from? Yeah, from the from the government. The government gave us money.

shawn (39:22.785)
Matt, you're making the point. You're making the perfect point.

Matt (39:33.291)
Yeah.

Matt (39:41.163)
but that's because the government, there's not a philanthropic organization or there's not a capitalist like trade organization making that happen. It's taxes.

Sam (39:48.246)
Well, I disagree with it, but the federal government's paying for it. So her existence generated revenue for you.

shawn (39:53.845)
Matt, but it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter where the money comes from. The idea that, okay, I need something from you. I need to be taken care of. And you say, I need something in exchange for that. I'm willing to do it for X amount of dollars. And you both provided each other those things and the invisible hand caused you both to strive. That's exactly right.

Sam (40:08.81)
It's the hand, Matt. It's the hand.

Matt (40:13.811)
Listen, anytime you guys say that government intervention in the economy is necessary for capitalism to thrive, I'm all for that. I'm all about saying government intervention in the economy is necessary.

shawn (40:24.061)
It doesn't matter where. You can't hijack. You can't hijack that. No, it doesn't matter where the money came from. The idea that you guys had a free exchange with each other, like that money could have come from her family. It doesn't matter where that money came from.

Sam (40:27.778)
So, so for, so, so for-

Matt (40:36.863)
Her family didn't have the money. Her family's all dead. There's no money there.

shawn (40:40.157)
Okay, so that's the heart of my question, Sam. We both agree that Matt failed in his example. We know that that's the free hand, but Matt or Sam, what if the government didn't provide that and what if she couldn't afford to pay Matt to take care of her? My question really to you in capitalism is what we're accused of we as capitalists is you would let her die because she has nothing to offer a value. So how does capitalism solve that?

Matt (40:53.565)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (41:04.066)
So throughout history, there are examples of capitalism handling that by creating places where people can live and using government or some sort of a similar arrangement to religious organizations, social organizations. I mean, no, no great, no society is going to allow people in that situation to go completely by the wayside. I mean, if we have the medical capability to allow them.

Matt (41:14.075)
religious organizations took care of it.

Sam (41:30.03)
to live and to continue to live, there's going to be services that will support that. And that creates an entire industry. Like there are medical companies and there are home hospice companies that live and create jobs taking care of her, the person Matt's talking about.

shawn (41:34.253)
But just to...

But just... Okay, but...

shawn (41:45.549)
But Sam, okay, but Sam, just to preempt an email coming from someone who we know to counter that argument, you can't attribute, what you just said, you can't attribute it to capitalism then. You can attribute it to religion that would take care of her in that case.

Sam (41:51.65)
Send the email.

Sam (41:58.186)
You can attribute it to whatever you want because people are paying money to get it. Oh, he left.

Matt (42:02.655)
Ha ha!

Alright, well I think I'll give Sean the points on this because... Yeah. You tried, Sean. You really tried. And I like it.

Sam (42:07.818)
I'm going to give Sean the points too. Yeah. Good job, Sean. And, and I, I am going to Google tonight. I really need a good night's sleep. So I am going to Google the, what is it? Invisible hand. I'm going to the shadow, the shadow nose, the shadow nose.

shawn (42:09.817)
Hahaha

shawn (42:20.325)
Then Adam, Adam Smith.

Matt (42:20.455)
Yeah, it's called the wealth of nations. The wealth of nations.

Matt (42:27.719)
Okay, the big question this week, I'm super excited about this big question. So you guys like to talk about how academics live in a fantasy world. Well, billionaires seem to have even crazier ideas than what we come up with as academics. New Zealand has become a home for billionaires who want to build prepper bunkers. I've got a link to the story, but there are a number of billionaires who are preppers and they buy land in New Zealand.

Sam (42:32.238)
This is fun.

Sam (42:36.558)
true.

Sam (42:41.529)
Oh no.

shawn (42:42.566)
Hehehe

Matt (42:56.263)
and they build bunkers for themselves to protect themselves.

Sam (42:58.346)
Wait, in New Zealand or in Southern Utah? Which place is it?

shawn (43:02.682)
haha

Matt (43:02.771)
The billionaires don't want Southern U. That's the millionaire Sam. The billionaires go to New Zealand. The millionaires.

Sam (43:05.85)
Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Anyway, a bunch of people are preppers and they're building bunkers in Utah, Idaho and New Zealand now.

shawn (43:06.622)
Hahaha

Matt (43:13.047)
Jeff Bezos wants to build colonies on the moon to mine resources for planet Earth. Elon Musk

shawn (43:18.289)
Don't get why did you put that in there? Matt, why'd you have to put that in there? Sam's gonna go nuts now on his space exploration.

Sam (43:18.615)
Yeah?

Sam (43:22.262)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Matt (43:27.348)
Elon Musk wants to build 100 starships per year over the next 10 years to begin the colonization of Mars. So do you agree that billionaires get the headlines, but the government bureaucrats who tell them no are the unsung heroes who protect society from these crazy ideas from billionaires?

shawn (43:45.233)
How on earth

Sam (43:48.694)
Wait.

shawn (43:49.361)
How'd you take it there? How did you get to politicians?

Sam (43:51.358)
I never, never accept the premise of the question, Matt. So you say the government bureaucrats who tell them no, or the unsung heroes who has told Elon Musk, no, Elon Musk gets funded left and right for SpaceX and other businesses, uh, through federal dollars in government funding.

Matt (43:54.934)
Hahaha

Matt (43:59.657)
Yes.

Matt (44:07.907)
wait till he files his permit to colonize Mars, then they'll say, no, you don't get to colonize Mars. It belongs... Wait till Jeff Bezos says, I want to colonize the moon and we'll say, no, that belongs to Denmark. You can't have it, Jeff Bezos.

Sam (44:13.826)
They're not gonna say no.

shawn (44:13.925)
permit to colonize Mars. He doesn't need a permit to colonize Mars.

shawn (44:25.937)
Hahaha

Sam (44:26.146)
So, so, so by the way, it's, it's what Jeff Bezos is wanting to do. And Elon Musk wanting to do going to Mars. That's called vision. That's called, that's, that's called looking ahead and saying, you know what? There's value in us leaving our solar system and our planet and exploring other areas. What's wrong with that?

shawn (44:35.727)
Oh no.

Matt (44:36.192)
Hahaha!

Matt (44:41.417)
Oh no.

Matt (44:47.751)
I love it when the preppers want to build bunkers in southern Utah. They're crazy. But when Jeff Bezos wants to colonize the moon, that's vision.

shawn (44:48.869)
Sorry, Sam, I disagree.

Sam (44:57.366)
Hey, if somebody wants to dig a hole in the ground and go climb into it, more power to them, right? Like whether they're Utah or whether they're New Zealand, I don't care. But, but I'm inspired by a guy like Elon Musk that says we're going to go to Mars. Isn't that exciting? Or, or, or Richard, Richard Branson, Richard Branson, right? And, and, and it's that it's the focus. Listen, I'm going to defend it. It's the focus on that vision that actually allows them to do other things that are a lot more practical.

shawn (45:02.384)
Matt.

Matt (45:02.847)
But if they want...

shawn (45:05.994)
M-Matt.

Matt (45:12.947)
No, that is not exciting!

shawn (45:13.325)
No, that's stupid. That's so stupid.

Sam (45:27.35)
Right? Like he's got the, he's got the hyper, no, he's, he's got the hyper loop. Right. Which Velcro that's the space program. Right. So

shawn (45:27.449)
Like Matt said, like Tang, like Tang, right? We get Tang created out of that.

And Velcro, Velcro.

shawn (45:37.413)
That is the most, the Velcro is the most expensive product ever developed because the space, it took the space program to develop.

Matt (45:38.131)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (45:45.014)
You can't, you can't, yeah.

Matt (45:45.483)
So I haven't looked at the numbers recently. So this is something I'm not exactly sure about, but I've heard that Elon Musk's spacecraft have been crashing a lot lately and that he's behind on contracts with NASA. And he's like, Elon Musk is wasting a lot of money, millions and millions of dollars.

shawn (45:46.609)
Ahem.

Sam (45:57.186)
Gosh.

Sam (46:05.014)
Wait, did you, did you, did you say you don't actually have the citation, but you've heard anecdotally that a lot of his spacecrafts are crashing and he's therefore, therefore he's wasting a lot of government dollars. This is all made up. This is all made up. This is the uninspired lack of vision that most people have. People like JFK in the 1960s that said, we will go to the moon in a decade. We're going to do something really cool and tough.

shawn (46:09.493)
Yeah, he did say that. And, and, and also, and also, no.

Matt (46:11.875)
Okay, talk amongst yourselves while I find the...

Sam (46:32.274)
It changed the face of the world. You will never get me to change my take on that.

shawn (46:34.169)
Matt, you knew that if you brought in space, Sam would hijack the topic so far away from your question. Why would you do it? No, can I, can, Matt, no, Matt.

Matt (46:37.304)
Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha.

Sam (46:43.798)
He wanted to see the power of the hidden hand is what he wanted to see.

Matt (46:43.804)
I'm just saying it's I needed Sam to take the side of the billionaires and this is the perfect time for him to do it.

shawn (46:51.133)
Hang on. Matt, can I just give my basic answer back to your question? Okay, here's what I think. It's not the academic's degree. It's not the oath that was for the politician that was voted in. It's not the money that was earned by the billionaire that makes them valuable. The scriptures teaches clearly that it's the wisdom, it's wisdom that makes people valuable. And so it's not your, it's not...

Matt (46:57.045)
Yeah.

Matt (47:19.079)
I'm not talking about valuable. I'm talking...

shawn (47:21.049)
It's not your sacred politician that saves us with all their wisdom and their decision-making. Fine, your bureaucrats. It's not the rich people and it's definitely not the academics with their degrees because there's plenty in those arenas who don't have good wisdom to make decisions for us.

Matt (47:24.279)
Bure- bureaucrats. The bureaucrats. Who say no.

Matt (47:41.068)
I'm going to read this to you Sam so that you believe that what I'm saying

Sam (47:45.106)
Is it an article from CNN dated November 18th of 2023 talking about the heaviest rocket ever built by humankind launched went farther than it ever went. And then it went into self-destruct mode. This is the rocket that ultimately could fuel us to reach out or, you know, get beyond the moon and whatnot. No. All right.

Matt (48:02.751)
No.

The one that I'm not reading about that failure.

shawn (48:05.553)
They're all, Matt, they're all, Matt, they're all crashing because they're trying to be self, Elon Musk is trying to make them self land. Naturally, you're gonna crash 300 before you make one that self lands.

Sam (48:08.394)
Go ahead.

Sam (48:14.334)
No, they're not self-landing these.

Matt (48:16.141)
So this is on The Hill, which is a conservative website. And this is in May of 2023. So it says, SpaceX founder Elon Musk was sanguine after his big new rocket suffered rapid unscheduled disassembly. He embraces the tech sectors, move fast and break things ethos, first espoused by Mark Zuckerberg. He knows that the engineering data gathered from the short flight will help track down problems

and improve the outcome the next time. This type of rapid innovation cycle has worked for SpaceX. The company's first rocket, Falcon 1, its first three launches were failures followed by two successes, a fairly low success rate. Then Falcon 9 became the workhorse rocket for a decade with just two failures and 232 launches for a phenomenal success rate of 99%.

Sam (49:06.35)
That's impressive.

Matt (49:08.331)
But then he's been, wait, I should have read that whole article to myself before I read it to you guys.

Sam (49:12.014)
Yeah, you should have. Listen, here's the deal. Here's the deal. Innovation is messy and expensive and this sort of innovation we learn by our mistakes. It's crazy to think that you're going to, you're going to do, nobody's died doing this in the early space program. NASA had people died. People haven't died in this. So you guys listen, your uninspired lack of vision, uh, would cost the US.

shawn (49:14.818)
Ha ha

shawn (49:23.121)
That's awesome.

Matt (49:32.367)
Yeah. Okay.

shawn (49:33.77)
But Matt, was your point really in this question? Ha ha.

Sam (49:40.77)
are standing in the global marketplace. People like Elon Musk and Branson and Bezos and others, they're forging ahead and doing things that spark imagination, creativity, and ultimately will help us retain our place.

shawn (49:52.749)
I don't know. I don't know, Sam. I think we could have created Velcro without $10 trillion. I think we could have.

Sam (49:58.538)
We could have, but...

Matt (49:58.715)
I had so much hope that I would be able to persuade you guys that bureaucrats are better than billionaires.

Sam (50:02.37)
No.

shawn (50:03.897)
You didn't make a single argument. Make an argument about it. Make one.

Sam (50:08.194)
Yep.

Matt (50:08.485)
The billionaires have stupid ideas that fail. And it's not vision, it's just dumb ideas.

shawn (50:11.521)
What does that have to do with bureaucrats doing anything?

Sam (50:11.914)
Yeah. But, but, but by the way, guess, guess who we don't want to have a billion dollars and needing to go do something extraordinary, you or me, because you would say, that's a stupid idea. I'm going to give everybody a million dollars, and I'm going to hope they just self actualize into some thing that makes a lot of money. That that's the work of the work of these extraordinarily successful people. Yeah. Portland, I'm talking to you.

shawn (50:22.405)
Ha ha.

shawn (50:31.059)
He wouldn't do that.

Sam (50:39.574)
The work of these extraordinarily successful people is to do things that are tough, that they fail every now and again, but ultimately they bring innovation and they bring realization of things that haven't happened before.

shawn (50:53.453)
Yeah, Matt, I think that there are so many academics and intellectuals have brought so much value to our society. It's the same with Sam's side. Millionaires and billionaires who are innovators and risk takers have brought so much, probably more, value to our society, right? Now, get...

Matt (50:53.77)
I believe.

Matt (51:00.959)
Yes, yes.

Sam (51:11.254)
Wait, what value has academics brought to our society? I can't remember.

Matt (51:11.524)
But bureaucrats, but bureaucrats and technocrats, the people who are in the nitty-gritty details of government work, they do so much good for society. They keep our roads clean. They build roads for us. They make sure that we have clean water. They make sure that we

shawn (51:22.649)
Like who? Give one example?

shawn (51:29.489)
But those things could be done more efficiently without them.

Matt (51:33.127)
I don't think so. I think that they're the...

shawn (51:34.682)
Oh, private market could do that way more efficiently without.

Matt (51:37.295)
I think that these private market people are incredibly inefficient. Think how much money Metta has dumped into their like virtual reality stuff, cause they think that that's the next big thing or Apple. Think of the millions and perhaps billions of dollars that they're betting on their new like virtual reality, like iPhone thing. That's the mayor may not work.

shawn (51:58.862)
It's a good, think, Matt, think of the billions of dollars of COVID tests that are sitting in your own closet.

Sam (52:03.554)
It's, it's, it's unbelievable to me because what you're talking about here, it's all just relative scale. Like everybody's playing in different swimming pools or sandboxes. Bezos just has a huge sandbox because of the money he's amassed because of the wealth he's created through these companies. Like it doesn't make him any better or worse, but.

Matt (52:06.464)
Hahaha!

shawn (52:26.673)
Through the innovation, man, that guy innovated.

Sam (52:29.91)
Because he's in that box he's in, he can take more risk that to us seems crazy. Cause we don't even under, I, yeah, we don't even understand it. I was with, I would, yeah.

shawn (52:40.942)
And Matt, that guy has, Sam, you agree. Sam, you agree. Bezos, Sam, do you agree that Bezos has created one of the most important networks and systems that has ever been created on this planet? The ability to, Amazon, are you kidding me?

Matt (52:41.503)
Say it, Sam.

Sam (52:42.706)
I'm not going to say it. Get myself into trouble.

Matt (52:53.291)
Are you talking about Amazon?

Okay, so then why is he wasting his time colonizing the moon? That's not gonna build anything helpful.

Sam (52:59.926)
Yeah, but it's, it's you saying he's wasting his time. You would have said before he invented Amazon, what a crazy dumb idea to try to deliver through the mail, a book, like what a waste of everybody's time to pay the United States postal service two bucks to deliver a book for free. Like he's burning through cash. It makes no sense. Dumb idea. Move on. But, but, but he innovated in a way no one had ever thought. You did that.

shawn (53:10.533)
book.

shawn (53:23.217)
Is that true, Matt?

Matt (53:26.131)
I thought it was brilliant. I was the first investor in Amazon. I said, I don't need it. Ha ha ha.

Sam (53:29.078)
You did not, you did not. And, and then the idea that you could mail us a DVD through the mail, Netflix, and then, and then, and then the idea that you would be able to stream content and you could watch a movie. Um, that's a crazy idea. Cause there's not enough bandwidth. Al Gore's internet did, was not created to handle streaming. It takes vision seeing the world in a way you and I don't see it.

shawn (53:29.625)
You're an idiot.

Matt (53:37.747)
Oh yeah, I was in on that too.

shawn (53:50.245)
hahahaha

Sam (53:57.354)
And then having the resources to execute on it. Does it seem crazy? Absolutely. I remember there was a patent guy a hundred years ago that's that declared, Hey, everything that the, that, that the world needs has been created. All inventions have been created. And he said, there's no need for any more innovation. He was, I think he was in charge of the U S patent office, whatever. What a crazy, dumb idea that was. Right. We've only just begun to.

shawn (54:01.285)
But Matt, I...

shawn (54:19.131)
Yeah, yeah.

shawn (54:24.433)
Good night.

Sam (54:26.018)
cult Karen Carpenter who later killed herself. Go ahead, Sean.

shawn (54:28.537)
Whoa, but Matt, but Matt, to be balanced, to be balanced, I would put some of your precious intellectuals in the same category that Sam's talking about, right? Like Adam Smith, Adam Smith, for example. For example, who created, yes, he is. Whoever created penicillin, right? Like, oh, there's tons of intellectuals and scientists who have done just as much good as Jeff Bezos.

Matt (54:29.646)
Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are in here?

Sam (54:33.649)
Just like you.

Matt (54:40.179)
Yes, yes. No, no, he's not a precious intellectual.

Sam (54:42.912)
Oh.

Matt (54:52.139)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (54:53.006)
I think that's science that did that. Not intellectuals. We love intellectuals. Just, you know, be open to business not being a detractor that business can help create innovation in interesting and positive ways. That's all we ask. And for that, Sean, I give you all the points because what you tried to do is you tried to tie in vision with intellectuals equally with business and other segments of our world. And for that, that's awesome. Good for you.

Matt (55:19.947)
You know, one of my favorite things about this podcast is that we do not agree on some things. And I always thought, you know, in time, the, the brilliance of my arguments was going to pull them to the better perspective, but it hasn't ever happened.

Sam (55:34.05)
Your ideas are getting worse. You want to buy a billboard and try to, it's, it's getting worse, Matt. Sean and I will have you committed at one point. Go ahead. Sorry. Hopefully you're having fun. Yeah.

shawn (55:34.277)
It has two! No, no, no.

Matt (55:38.327)
Ha ha!

shawn (55:38.529)
I'm sorry.

Matt (55:43.615)
Hey, listener, if you get nothing else from this podcast, listener, just know, yeah. And you can disagree with people. There's like, we have our perspectives on things. You have yours and we embrace all perspectives that are not insane, right? As long as you're not insane, share with us what you think. We think it's great. Have a good, yeah.

shawn (55:47.013)
Hehehe

Sam (56:05.834)
And Matt, tonight as you close, I hope everyone thinks about not only the invisible hand, the invisible voice and the invisible market, whatever. Anyway, go ahead. I was trying to close it out, but it didn't happen. I'm gonna read it. Yeah. The shadow knows.

shawn (56:17.553)
Hahaha!

Matt (56:17.983)
Ha ha

shawn (56:20.837)
Sam, go read it, go read it.

Matt (56:21.175)
The invisible hand, the invisible voice, the invisible man who may be in your room right now. Have... .. Have a good week, everybody!