November 29, 2023; Third Party Candidates, Cancel Culture, Middle-way Church Members, What Entertainment is Inappropriate?

Matt (00:01.424)
Hey, welcome listener to another exciting episode of The Latter-day Lens. We've got some fun stuff in the mailbag this week. I think that this is just mostly for us to respond to. So one listener writes, "'Your idea for a coffee substitute cafe in Provo has already been tried. Latter-day Cafe opened in Provo south of BYU in 2021, making drinks out of the Capomo seed, which they promoted as better than coffee.'

You could caffeinate your drink on a scale from one to four. One was equivalent to Mountain Dew. Two was a coffee cup. Three was five hour energy and four was bang. I just looked them up and they've gone out of business. They're no longer, they haven't made it. So.

Sam (00:39.823)
Haha. Mmm.

Sam (00:44.038)
Bang, bang, that is a common misconception. Bang was sued by Pepsi for copyright infringement. And it's such a fantastic beverage that it has survived bankruptcy and it's back in action. So, oh, okay.

shawn (00:55.268)
Hahaha!

Matt (00:56.232)
I didn't mean to say Bang was out of business. I had never heard of Bang before. No, no, this latter day cafe is out of business, I think.

shawn (01:04.586)
Matt, it was your original idea, which can now be put out there because that business has gone down, was a genius satire, and I'd love to see if it kicks off in Utah. I think Utah, I think you guys would go for it. Sam, you'd go for it, right? Post them with some caffeine drops.

Sam (01:04.747)
I see.

Sam (01:21.278)
Uh, no.

Matt (01:23.112)
So so I don't consume a lot of caffeine but over the Thanksgiving break I did a lot of driving with no sleep and I took I took one caffeine pill 200 milligrams And then three hours later, I had a caffeine pill that stuff really works. I was and there's like no

shawn (01:39.941)
Hahaha

Sam (01:41.291)
Do you want to know how I know you don't drink a lot of caffeine? Because you knew the exact milligram content of what you consumed. Anyone that drinks a lot of caffeine has no idea. They just drink it to get the effect.

Matt (01:47.944)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

shawn (01:48.738)
Hahaha

Matt (01:55.593)
Sometimes like my kids will ask about caffeinated beverages and stuff, and so I'll ask the Google. I'll be like how much caffeine is in like Mountain Dew or a cup of coffee or something like that. So I think Mountain Dew is like 80 milligrams, but I don't know.

shawn (02:08.77)
Sam, I drink it once a year when I drive. Like this trip back from Utah, I was drinking it. It was just a diet Coke. And I just sipped at it for like five hours. And it was just this like little stream of confidence. But I don't know if it did anything. Would that have done anything?

Sam (02:10.52)
Yeah.

Sam (02:19.784)
Yeah.

Matt (02:21.74)
Oh, it did, Sean. It did. It worked. My first ca- wait, I'm going to share this part first. My first caffeine pill, I didn't have any water. All I had was gum. I didn't have any way to swallow the pill, so I just sucked on the caffeine pill and chewed it up. It was the most nasty tasting thing. So that's- is that what you were doing, Sean? You were like sipping on- how were you doing? Just a little- or was it a drink you were sipping on? Oh.

Sam (02:24.119)
Uh, yeah.

shawn (02:25.354)
Matt, I'm not asking you, Sam's the authority here.

Sam (02:29.247)
It does nothing for me.

shawn (02:46.517)
Little can of Diet Coke.

Matt (02:50.296)
Yeah, I thought I would feel guilty about what I did. We'll get into this later on, but.

Sam (02:54.526)
Oh gee, oh no. Oh.

shawn (02:59.572)
You used it as a medicinal, right, purpose. Yes.

Matt (03:02.397)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure.

Sam (03:03.054)
It was an herbal remedy. Is that what you're trying to say, Sean?

Matt (03:07.692)
It is so cheap to buy caffeine. Before, before I got my sleep apnea machine, I would be so tired in the daytime. One time I said to my wife, I'm just going to go buy caffeine at Walmart. Cause it's very, very inexpensive. I'm like, I'll just take caffeine every day. And she's like, I don't like the idea of you being a caffeine addict. So the sleep machine worked for me. So I don't, I never feel tired anymore, but

shawn (03:24.11)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Sam (03:29.487)
Uh, isn't it great how, how we always assume that it's going to become an extreme and uncontrolled habit. Like you go from, you go from 200 milligrams of caffeine, whatever that equals to some sort of a heroin addict overnight. It's great. Caffeine is the gateway drug.

shawn (03:42.317)
Well, we're going to talk.

Matt (03:42.444)
Yeah, maybe when I get a chance in the podcast, I'll Google how much caffeine 200 milligrams is, like how much that's in it. I find out that it's a Diet Coke.

Sam (03:53.262)
Probably not much. I could find a five hour energy here somewhere, I'm sure. Let's see. It's gotta be somewhere.

shawn (03:58.678)
hahahaha

Matt (03:59.272)
So five hour energy gets you a three on the scale of that coffee shop and bang, I don't know what that is. But it suggests to me like caffeine has to be, have not very bad side effects. If you could market drinks with that much caffeine in it and not worry about like having negative health consequences, right? It has to be kind of not too bad.

Sam (04:03.178)
Yep. Yeah, I don't, that's...

shawn (04:19.63)
Stop putting... Yeah, but you...

Sam (04:21.87)
I think there are negative health consequences. So in a growing heart, developing heart for younger kids, it can create all sorts of problems, including I believe myocardia, I think, and other things. So in kids, it's not safe. No, isn't it a swelling of a heart or something? It was a common, you know what? We're talking about things we know nothing about and I have no idea about it either. So yeah, I'm not, yeah. And I'm not even a doctor.

Matt (04:33.undefined)
Oh, wait, isn't that a heart attack? Is it? What? I don't know anything.

shawn (04:34.193)
Only in.

shawn (04:44.234)
Yeah, let's.

Matt (04:45.348)
I'm a doctor, but not that kind of doctor. Okay.

shawn (04:50.241)
We'll bring the caffeine question up later as a thought provoker.

Sam (04:54.154)
Alright, very good. Alright.

Matt (04:54.296)
Yeah, we're gonna talk about this stuff later. Okay, I get to go first for the Thought Provoker this week. So CBS did an interview with Mitt Romney. There was a sit down with he and his wife. One of the things I thought was kind of fun in the interview was she asked him something about what was said in the book. And he's like, you know, when I gave all of my journals to McKay Coppins, it seemed like not such a bad idea. But now that the book has come out and people are hearing things I said about them, I'm like, wait a minute, did I say that?

Sam (04:59.667)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (05:23.504)
Maybe I shouldn't have given him access to everything I put in my journals.

shawn (05:23.618)
Oh, jeez.

Sam (05:26.163)
How did he not, I haven't seen this interview, but how did he not think about that before he handed all that over? Like, he had to have been.

Matt (05:32.924)
He's just a trusting person, Sam. He's just a kind trust.

Sam (05:35.67)
But but he's not knee jerk, right? Like he's got to be more thoughtful about consequences. Like, how does someone of his stature who's written so much that's so emotional? How does he think that's gonna land well?

shawn (05:37.024)
Open book.

Matt (05:40.153)
Yeah, that's true.

Matt (05:50.353)
who was so cautious about everything he did when running for president. But then, yeah. Well, so she asked him this question about the no labels, right? She wanted to kind of get him to say definitively, is he running for president on the no labels ticket? Is he not? And I thought that his answer to the question was instructive because a lot of people don't know this. So he said that a third party candidate could never win the presidency.

Sam (05:55.022)
Fair, yeah.

Matt (06:18.undefined)
like someone from no labels, because the constitution says you have to get 270 electoral college votes in order to be president. And if nobody gets to 270, then the election is decided by the House of Representatives, one state, one vote. And he's like, there's no way that the House Republicans would ever vote for a third party candidate. There's no way that House Democrats would ever vote for a third party candidate. So there's no way for a third party candidate to win the White House. So.

And if people who don't know the history, the 1800 election was decided by the House of Representatives and the 1820 maybe is 1824 when John Quincy Adams beat Andrew Jackson, that was decided by the House of Representatives. So it's happened in the US history.

Sam (07:04.148)
That's a reason why a lot of Republicans should support Joe Manchin, because ultimately it will see the election of Donald J. Trump. Joe Manchin becomes the no labels candidate, splits the Dems, fractures the Republicans, but the Democrats suffer most and Trumps in.

Matt (07:12.273)
Right.

Matt (07:19.8)
And in the best case scenario, Joe Manchin takes enough electoral college votes from both of them that neither of them can win it on their own, but then it goes to the House of Representatives. And then currently the House is controlled by, well, currently it's controlled by Republicans. And so the Republicans would, right? Even in the best case scenario for the no party ticket, it goes, the Republicans win that election, which is why, by the way, no labels.

Sam (07:32.002)
Civil War.

Matt (07:47.34)
wants to have a Republican at the top of the ticket, which is why they keep talking to Mitt Romney about that because they really just want to find a way to get a Republican in the White House that they like. But the question I want to discuss as the thought provoker is because there's at least a third of Americans, if not more, that don't want Trump or Biden in the White House. So what should people do if they don't want Trump or Biden to be the president of the United States? What options do they have to

If no labels isn't the option, a third party's not the option, what are they supposed to do?

shawn (08:22.922)
Your data, is it a third? Is that a fact, a third, at least imposed now?

Matt (08:27.152)
Um, it's at least a third. Um, because, so if you look at the polls and you say, uh, would you be upset if Joe Biden becomes president, it's like 70% would be mad about that. Would you be upset if Donald Trump is president? It's at least 70% that's mad about that. But, um, there's a third of the country that calls themselves independent. So it's at least a third, but it could be maybe more.

shawn (08:37.389)
Yeah, got it.

Sam (08:51.182)
So there's the aspirational approach and there's the realistic approach. Aspirationally, it'd be wonderful if everyone could coalesce around some third party, and there could be some rally cry that would bring people together and people would join towards the greater good and elect ultimately the best human being. The challenge is reality, our structure, our political system, the way it's set up today. It doesn't work that way, and it hasn't worked that way. It...

Matt (09:14.532)
Yeah. Right.

Sam (09:16.818)
Anybody that wants either one of them to not be elected, it's too late in the process. That should have happened long ago.

shawn (09:23.298)
Sam, what if for some odd reason, Donald Trump, who isn't really a Republican, switches parties and becomes an independent? Do you think that Donald Trump, does he? No, I know he wouldn't, but hypothetically, because the question is hypothetical, could a cult of personality like him actually make a dent in it, no?

Sam (09:30.266)
Accidentally dies? Is that what you're saying?

Matt (09:34.793)
He has the same problem.

Sam (09:36.234)
He's not going to do that though. There's no, there's no benefit to him.

Matt (09:41.584)
he would have the same problem.

Matt (09:45.86)
No. Would the House Republicans really vote for Donald Trump, the independent candidate over the Republican candidate? No, they would still vote the Republican candidate. There's no third party candidate out there that can win the White House because of the Electoral College. So yeah, and that's how they designed it, right? The system was designed to have two party rule. And I know that George Washington talked about political parties being bad. In that letter he wrote as he stepped down,

shawn (09:53.839)
Oh.

shawn (10:01.667)
Gotcha.

Matt (10:15.288)
And I know that the Federalist Papers talk all about how bad parties are, but the truth is, those people who didn't like parties created the parties, and they're also the ones that created this system that gives us two parties.

shawn (10:25.41)
So what to answer your question. So what do you do, Matt? Do you just vote your conscience? You do your research and you just vote for who you like best?

Matt (10:32.38)
The happy story, Sean, is that it doesn't have to be Trump or Biden. There's going to be primary elections that happen starting in January. No, there are! You can vote in the primaries. You can go in the caucuses. You don't have to just—

shawn (10:38.242)
How so?

Sam (10:40.622)
Oh no, here we go.

shawn (10:43.906)
See you have hope.

So, Matt, you have hope. You have hope that it's not just gonna be Trump on the Republican side.

Sam (10:48.342)
If there was to be a primary election, there would be a primary debates that people would watch and be interested in and would vote. There hasn't been any of that yet because Trump hasn't attended any of those.

shawn (10:54.232)
Sam.

Matt (10:56.068)
Well, so if you're a voter, if you're a typical voter, you're probably not paying a lot of attention to the campaigns and what's happening right now. So in these surveys, when you're asking people who you're gonna vote for, they're not really paying that close of attention to things. But in January, there's gonna be the caucuses in Iowa, there's gonna be primaries in New Hampshire, and then you're gonna actually see votes of like who's winning and who's losing, and people will drop out. But I'm just saying like,

People need to be aware that if you don't want it to be Trump versus Biden, on the Democrat side, there are Democrats running against Joe Biden in those primaries. You could go vote for those people and then you could choose a Democrat different than Joe Biden. And on the Republican side, if you don't want it to be Trump, go get involved and be a part of it and change it.

shawn (11:44.046)
Okay, Matt, okay, Matt, thanks for the text, okay, for professor, thanks for the textbook answer, but you don't believe that that's, I mean, you believe in the polls, right? And the polls say that who cares?

Matt (11:48.169)
Hahaha

Matt (11:54.808)
no this far out i don't believe the polls are right no i don't

shawn (11:57.202)
Oh good. Oh good. Good. Sam does. You do though, Sam, right?

Matt (12:01.133)
No, I don't think Sam believes that.

Sam (12:03.076)
I think the polls are accurate in that the ultimate candidate will be Trump and Biden. I do believe that.

shawn (12:08.046)
Yeah, he believes the polls, Matt.

Matt (12:08.616)
So what I think is that the, I think that the polls reinforce the narratives that people hear in the media, right? The media, so first of all, the Democrats want it to be Trump more than anything else. So Democrats are gonna spend a lot of time talking about how Trump's the nominee, Trump's the nominee, because they want Republicans to nominate Donald Trump. And Trump's also good for clicks and all that stuff. So I think what happens is people hear these narratives.

No, no, for the media, right? If you're in the news media, like go to MSNBC, like they get so much money off of stories about Trump that the media loves the idea of Trump-Biden showdown. So I think that what happens is that Americans just sort of assume, well, it's gonna be that. And so then they just don't do anything about it. And I'm saying you can do something about it, but it's not the third party candidate that's gonna help you.

shawn (12:43.694)
Thanks.

Sam (13:00.715)
So do you see a path to Nikki Haley overcoming Trump's lead at this point somehow? Yeah?

Matt (13:06.284)
Oh yeah, Nikki Haley easily could do it. In 2007, John McCain was polling right around where Chris Christie is polling right now in New Hampshire. And John McCain became the nominee. So Trump, there's no doubt that Trump's the prohibitive favorite, that's what everybody says, because he has such a high percentage. But Trump doesn't get over 50% in any of those early states.

shawn (13:29.378)
So, so, so.

shawn (13:34.602)
So we've got a long time, a whole year, right? Before this is even actually gonna play out. So how about this? Both of you give your predictions. I know Sam's prediction. Matt, give your prediction. And then we're gonna have to revisit this.

Matt (13:44.741)
No, no, I-

Sam (13:46.926)
Trump Biden Trump.

Matt (13:49.4)
I mean, that's the easy thing. That's the easy one, right? That's the easy a year out who's going to win the White House? Joe Biden. No, I'm talking about what people can do if they don't like either of those candidates. Biden will Biden

shawn (13:49.672)
Okay, Sam, go ahead. So Matt, what's your prediction?

shawn (13:57.058)
Well that's what we're talking about!

shawn (14:03.01)
But it doesn't matter if, okay, okay.

Sam (14:04.478)
I think it's so funny that you don't believe in the American dream. You're not willing to have enough hope to say, Hey, gosh, darn it. I believe that if you work hard, you can lift yourself up for bootstraight. You're unwilling to have that hope and belief, and yet you're willing to believe that Nikki Haley can beat Trump.

Matt (14:08.722)
Hehehehehehe

shawn (14:21.226)
Hehehehe

Matt (14:21.828)
Yeah, she can. Nikki Haley, if Nikki Haley does... Well, because, wow, because... Nikki Haley is hardly came from nowhere to become the...

Sam (14:23.23)
Well, how is that not the American dream?

shawn (14:29.87)
Okay Matt, but you're saying if Nikki Haley wins.

Sam (14:33.782)
Well, no, that story of that primary race would be her coming from nowhere to defeat a Goliath. Like truly, that would be a pretty incredible tale in politics.

Matt (14:47.976)
Trump did that to Jeb Bush in 2016.

shawn (14:50.626)
Okay, Matt, so your prediction is that Nikki Haley can win, but then Biden beats Nikki Haley. That's your prediction?

Sam (14:52.491)
But this is bigger.

Matt (14:57.188)
I think Biden wins in November. That's my prediction because probably Trump. Yeah, probably Trump.

shawn (15:00.606)
Against whom?

Sam (15:06.038)
Gosh darn it. If people got together, they could change that. I'll, I'll tell you who's getting, I'll, I'll tell you who's getting together right now, I know of people that Joe Manchin has gone and spoken to, to try to get support and political campaign dollars, and it's not Democrats, it's Republicans, he's, he's trying to pull them over and he doesn't realize, or he does realize, and he just knows it's the easy money, it just ensures Trump will win by pulling those people into his camp. It's crazy.

shawn (15:08.802)
Hahaha

Matt (15:09.244)
For sure. That's the thing, nobody.

Matt (15:17.456)
Yeah.

Matt (15:22.116)
Yeah, I know.

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

shawn (15:31.586)
Hehehe

Matt (15:31.66)
I know. Well, it could be more fruitless than to say, I would like to be the vice president on the third party where I don't even know who the president candidate is going to be. Give me money. Yeah, I know. It's just, yeah. Okay. I'm going to give, I can't give points to Sean because Sean didn't say what people should do. He just asked questions. So then thought provoker has to be, I can't give them to Sam because Sam just said Trump. That's not

Sam (15:38.623)
Right.

Sam (15:43.126)
It's crazy.

Sam (15:58.03)
We're going to keep the points and award them later. We're making the point system great again by reducing inflation. So the point system will come later.

shawn (16:07.111)
Haha, good. Good.

Matt (16:09.773)
Okay, Sean, you're up.

shawn (16:11.566)
So a couple of, I don't know, a few podcasts, we've talked about cancel culture, but we've never really tackled the issue of cancel culture. And I'm fascinated to get your opinions on it. So my question is this, do you guys think cancel culture, is it simply a new form of boycotting? Like that's an effective tactic used to affect change, boycotting. So is cancel culture simply boycotting? Or is it like a slippery slope and it leads to intolerance and...

in our society and basically excludes people that disagree with you. Like really, is it free market working or is it democratized bullying and intolerance? Is it good or bad?

Sam (16:54.222)
Do you have specific examples by chance?

shawn (16:57.919)
Lots.

Matt (16:58.42)
I do. Russell Brand, the girl from The Mandalorian who said something that people didn't like.

shawn (17:04.894)
Well, let me give you two. Let me give you two, because they're categorically kind of different. Dixie chicks, remember the Dixie chicks?

Sam (17:07.166)
Can I?

Matt (17:13.064)
They're the chicks, Sean, they're just the chicks. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's right.

shawn (17:14.982)
I know, but they were the Dixie Chicks. And at the height of President Bush's response to 9-11, the lead singer came out and said some pretty negative stuff about him. And I'm not gonna say it ruined their career, but it really changed their career. Like they were taken out of music stores, they were taken out of TV play, they were hurt. It hurt them bad. So that's an example of cancel culture, is that, was that just the market responding? Or was that like really negative intolerant mean society?

Matt (17:27.961)
It didn't.

Matt (17:32.004)
It hurt them. Yeah.

Matt (17:45.152)
No, that was them not knowing their audience, right? Taylor Swift got involved in politics when there was a Tennessee Senate race, I don't know, four or five years ago. It didn't hurt her at all because the Swifties just absolutely love her, right? She was on brand, she was on message on point, so.

Sam (18:03.182)
By the way, Matt and Sean, that's how you could actually change the presidential race next year. Get Taylor Swift to run against Joe Biden. She would win hands down. I mean, come on. Taylor Swift could shoot somebody on Wall Street and get away with it, to quote Donald Trump.

shawn (18:09.502)
Yeah, good point. Good point. Or at least to endorse him. Or endorse him at least.

shawn (18:19.286)
That's true. That is true.

Matt (18:21.676)
I don't think that I'm excited about- I mean I love Taylor Swift but I don't want her as president of the United States. I want her to make music. I want- Hahahaha

Sam (18:25.045)
Yeah.

How can you say that? Don't say that out loud, you're gonna get us canceled, Matt. It's not boycotting, Sean, it's an emotional response to socially charged issues. And I think cancel culture is created by our hyper social media world where information travels just like that. And people become excited and they become hot and bothered about something that they feel they can make a difference in.

it ends up creating so much momentum over time that sometimes the response outweighs the crime. Although I must say, I felt like Michael Jackson was canceled way back in the day. And I think at one point I told you, Matt, that I would never go see a Bill Cosby and or Michael Jackson show. I take that back. I was in Vegas recently, saw Michael Jackson, it was spectacular. So, you know, canceled culture is alive and real, but it's lame.

Matt (19:16.293)
Yeah.

Matt (19:21.604)
Yeah.

shawn (19:21.827)
Wow.

Matt (19:26.16)
And Michael Jackson's dead so you didn't harm anybody by giving his estate lots of money.

shawn (19:30.731)
What about Sam? What about JK Rowling? She's she did. She did. Oh, you don't know that JK Rowling sorry.

Sam (19:30.969)
Ha! Yeah.

Matt (19:34.884)
Yeah...

Sam (19:35.81)
Didn't she write a book about witchery and sorcery? Are you saying she got canceled because of that?

Matt (19:39.752)
She has like, she has anti-trans views and people like boycott JK Rowling because of what she says about trans people.

shawn (19:47.726)
She's very...

Sam (19:47.83)
I think people still like the books though.

shawn (19:50.542)
They still love the books, yeah.

Matt (19:50.652)
So Sean, I think, so again, so there are people that say these like hateful things and get away with it, right? Dave Chappelle, Dave Chappelle says more anti-trans things than JK Rowling has in her life. And why does Dave Chappelle not get canceled? Cause his audience.

Sam (20:01.317)
Yes, she does.

shawn (20:03.49)
Right, yep.

Sam (20:06.614)
What do you, by the way, what do you know about Dave Chappelle? What? You, you couldn't listen to seven words put together with him, from him, by him.

shawn (20:12.566)
He knows, sounds like it, he knows.

Matt (20:12.844)
Uh, Dave Chappelle has got to be one of the funniest people on the planet. He is so, does he say, does he have bad language?

shawn (20:21.71)
So you think it is, Matt, you think it's just, so Matt, you think it's just free market. So cancel culture is just a function of the free market. It's just know your audience, provide your product or service to that audience. Don't get out of your lane. Otherwise there's gonna be a rebellion like Bud Light. Like Bud Light.

Sam (20:27.094)
Game of Thrones style.

Matt (20:31.193)
It is.

Matt (20:40.676)
Think about the whole Me Too movement, right? The Me Too movement canceled a lot of people. There was Al Franken, the Senator from Minnesota. He took a photo with a woman that was inappropriate, resigned from his Senate seat. Donald Trump has been convicted of, far worse than that, and it has no effect on his career because of who his base is and who his supporters are. So to me, cancel culture only affects you if you do something that...

harms your supporters or makes them mad at you or makes them wanna turn on you. So people who know their customers, the Bud Light thing, same thing. Like again, I didn't quite understand it, but you guys told me like the Bud Light was not because of their position on that trans person, but it's because what they said about their customers, why they wanted to use a trans person that made them turn on Bud Light, right? It wasn't, it was cause Bud Light offended their consumers, their supporters.

shawn (21:10.882)
Hehehe

Matt (21:36.952)
and that's what made them turn on Bud Light. So to me, cancel culture is all about people who get built up by a certain group, do something that offends that group, and then that group turns on them.

shawn (21:47.202)
Now it does cross a line, right? When it comes to bullying, like just literally, just anonymous names behind social media just being absolutely cruel and bullying, that crosses a line, right? We can read a lot of scriptures that talk about how unkind and how horrible that is. But the type that we're talking about, Matt, sounds like you see there's a societal function in cancel culture. It's just free market. It's like your neighborhood grocer who is a Nazi.

Matt (22:11.368)
think it is free market.

shawn (22:15.166)
and people don't go to the neighbor grocer because he's a Nazi. And so they get shut down and that's a good thing. That's a positive thing. It's like Sam, you're not nodding your head. That's not a good thing.

Matt (22:18.48)
Right.

Sam (22:23.65)
We just keep coming back to the Nazis. We can't, let's stay away from the Nazis. Yes. Yeah.

Matt (22:26.224)
Hahaha

shawn (22:26.303)
Oh, we do? I didn't know we did.

Matt (22:29.432)
we talk about cancer? So again, in terms of free speech, I think people should be allowed to say whatever they want to say. I think there should be very few government restrictions on what a person can and can't say. But at the same time, if you're a company or you're an influencer or you're a public-facing person, there are going to be consequences for the things you choose to say.

shawn (22:50.118)
So what about Joe Rogan, right? So during COVID or shortly after, no, it was during COVID, he started saying, hey, I don't think he was saying don't take the vaccines, but he started promoting, what was it called? Do you guys remember the drug? Ivermectin. And you had big media just attack, attack. Well, later on, it seems like he was a little more accurate. They were not. Yes, that's exactly what happened.

Matt (23:02.189)
Ivermectin

Matt (23:13.624)
No, he was not. Ivermectin is effective at treating COVID. Just want to get you on the record what you were saying there, Sean.

shawn (23:18.206)
No, no, no. They were saying. No, no, no.

The attack, the attack that they put on to Joe Rogan, because Joe Rogan wasn't promoting it. He was suggesting that it has evidence that it is effective and is an alternative to look at as opposed to the vaccine.

Sam (23:34.518)
He, he was just being a source of complete unbiased truth, Matt. Come on. Joe Rogan was.

shawn (23:40.534)
Yeah

Matt (23:41.556)
I teach a class on statistics. And so in this class, I teach them like how to do like random controlled trials. And so we go to this website where we look at all of these studies that were on Ivermectin only cause it was easy to find. And there were like hundreds of studies and Ivermectin does not work to treat COVID. And every time I show it to class, a student will raise their hand and say, my dad took that and it cured his COVID. And I'm like, well, whatever placebo effect also works, but it doesn't mean that either, but

shawn (24:06.902)
But you think the big, but Matt, you think the big media being really vocal in canceling, trying to cancel Joe Rogan, which didn't cancel them, of course, but you believe that that's a proper place in the market.

Matt (24:15.68)
Right. Of course, of course they do that, right? Of course they do that. Just like, like all of the other auto manufacturers are going to attack Teslas and EVs every chance they get. Like, of course they're going to do that. Joe Rogan is a threat to the media supremacy, other forms of media, right? And, and he's, he's what doesn't he like have an exclusive, like license with certain organizations? Like he's not like other podcasters that are just everywhere, right? You have to like kind of subscribe to him or something like that. Yeah.

shawn (24:43.554)
Yep, yeah.

Matt (24:46.22)
So Joe Rogan represents this new kind of industry, like that's a threat to the other news markets, the other news outlets. So of course they're gonna attack that. Don't you think? Like, isn't that just basic marketing?

shawn (24:55.518)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, not really, but it's a tactic. Sam, so you disagree with Matt or do you agree with him in this sense? Or do you think that cancel culture is a big negative on our society and shouldn't play a role?

Sam (25:10.018)
Well, I mean, I think there's an element in everything of things go extreme and then they come back to the middle somehow somewhere and cancel culture became super extreme and social media, it seems drove it and the ease with which social media could completely take someone down made it easier. And it seems like maybe it's coming back more to center and driven a little bit by political correctedness, right? And it seems like there's kind of an anti-political correctness.

shawn (25:36.532)
But if it didn't...

Sam (25:39.318)
kind of thing starting to begin. So.

shawn (25:39.81)
But if, but Sam, but if it didn't come back to center, Matt saying, oh, there's a good function that it should play. So do you think that's a negative thing? If it didn't come back to center, if it continued to be, look, if you did something five years ago that was sexist, you're gonna, it's gonna hurt your career. And that's a good thing.

Sam (25:43.884)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (25:58.538)
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, what you're suggesting is to kill free speech and limit free speech as a remedy to cancel culture. And that's not a good remedy, right? That would be an extreme response to that. And I don't know. I don't know.

Matt (25:59.418)
That's a good thing.

Matt (26:15.864)
So when I say cancel culture is fine, that's not me justifying everything everybody does, right? There are things that people do in the name of cancel culture that I think are completely inappropriate. And honestly, I think most of the people that are out there trying to cancel people could find other better productive ways to spend their time than like trying to cancel people. But I'm gonna give you the point.

shawn (26:34.67)
Hehehehe

Sam (26:38.57)
Yeah, but I think, Matt, part of what you're missing in cancel culture is the thrill. So there's something about human nature where we love to do one of two things. We love to build something and have the gratification of achievement in building something. And we love to tear things down. And the gratification of the change of the landscape and tearing it down. Well, what's the easiest to do? Is it to build or to tear down? It's easiest to tear down. And social media has made tearing down

Matt (26:57.382)
Yeah.

Matt (27:04.648)
Tear it down. Easy.

Sam (27:08.506)
I can instantly become one of 10 million people unfaced that completely ruins someone. I can have an impact on someone or a restaurant or a person based on the worst moment of their life and based on three seconds understanding of who they are. That's not right, not fair, not good. It doesn't serve a social good, but to limit that ability to enact that free speech ultimately would be a big mistake.

challenge our way of life in a worse way. So you can't kill it, but ultimately, I think it's gotta come back to center. Maybe social media platforms limit the way people can crush someone. You hear about it all the time. You hear about these people that their worst moment is displayed on social media, and it triggers a component of society that...

an awareness of this or an awareness of that and they're ruined, their life is ruined, they can never go back to their life and that's terrible.

shawn (28:08.374)
Do you know who Miranda Sings is?

Matt (28:12.08)
Yeah. No, no, she's alert. Wait, she was canceled?

Sam (28:12.146)
No, because she was probably canceled. Was she canceled? Oh, was she canceled?

shawn (28:16.43)
Oh, Matt, she was canceled in a bad way. So three months ago, it was, so same, just as Sam sang. So you take all these things out of the past three or four years and she was doing some, having some pretty inappropriate interactions with young fans. In her defense, she was saying, well, I was just a character and I was being inappropriate and kind of gross, but these young kids, yeah, but it was very, very inappropriate stuff and she got majorly canceled.

Matt (28:36.24)
That's how Miranda Sings is.

Matt (28:40.903)
Oh.

shawn (28:43.622)
and just started losing all kinds of support and ads and followers. And then she came out with a video where she sang this really cringey song about how much of a victim she is and how, and then she got really canceled. It, it didn't go over well. Uh, yeah.

Matt (28:53.628)
Cool. Yeah, that doesn't. That's not the way to do it. Yeah. So do you guys know what I do with my spare time? Not this is one of the things I do. I am a I go on Google Maps and I give reviews of like places that I go. And it actually brings me a lot of satisfaction. So my photos on Google Maps have over 2 million views. I think I'm at 2.9 million views of my photos. There was

shawn (29:20.494)
Wow.

Sam (29:20.583)
Wow.

Matt (29:23.12)
I would be about three or four years ago, I went to this Thai place in Provo and it was in like Southwest Provo. Not a good location, not a good exterior, but it was like delicious food. And so I took photos of that. And then like that got within weeks, it got like 70,000 views. And I do this like various restaurants, I'll go places and I'll say, hey, this is actually good. And people don't know about it. And then I'll try and promote them on Google maps with really good reviews and good photos. And I get a lot of satisfaction at like,

watching businesses grow over time that I've like, I don't take credit for it completely, but it's like, you actually can use social media in a really positive way to build people rather than tear them down.

Sam (30:03.138)
Now you can use it for good to build them up, but think about how much a bigger reaction you would get if you went hardcore negative and you crushed someone. You would get a much stronger response from that person, that business and people around you than you ever would for the praise, right? The phone call to fix it, the attempts to serve you. And I think that's why in our culture, people go towards tearing down than building because it's so much easier.

Matt (30:11.undefined)
Yeah.

Matt (30:19.782)
Yeah.

shawn (30:30.702)
Sam, you're getting the points because by you pointing out that idea, I think it motivated Matt with this thought of, well, wait a minute, look at the good I'm doing and the opposite, and he's out doing good. That's the Christ-like thing to do. I like that. If we have that influence to be a negative force, that sounds like we can also have the influence to be a positive force and do the righteous things.

Matt (30:48.944)
We can. Everybody should go be at Google.

Sam (30:49.782)
I'm impressed that you have 2 million views on Google Maps, Matt. Nice job.

shawn (30:54.744)
Ha ha.

Matt (30:55.632)
They email me every month and show me, and I can see which photos get a lot of views and which ones don't. And then they'll be like, you should put photos of this place because you'll get lots of views. But no, I'm very strategic about which photos I do and who I promote. I don't promote the food channel people. Food network people don't need the help, but like local mom and pop places, like I try to promote them. People you meet at farmers markets, like promoting them can do a lot of good.

shawn (31:19.182)
Way to go, Matt. I like ending this section on that. You guys are motivating me. This is nice. Just go have that effect and be positive and build people, that's great. I'm gonna go ahead and close this one.

Sam (31:29.878)
All right, I'm a Oh, go ahead. Sean gets a point.

Matt (31:30.032)
So Sean, I'm gonna give Sean the points because I actually never, I never thought about this question this way, the way that Sean brought it up. So I'm giving you the points, Sean.

shawn (31:40.182)
You're welcome. Thanks.

Sam (31:43.278)
Nice job, Sean. I'm giving you the points too. Great, great, great topic. So from a high, let's go back into the gutter for a moment, shall we? So last week, props to my daughter, Carly. And I was chastised a little bit by my son, Braden, and his friend, Holly, for not crediting them on my Elon Musk topic a couple of weeks ago. They helped me come up with that. But today's topic, I saw this article on The Trib.

Matt (31:51.336)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Sam (32:11.614)
And in my mind, I'm thinking about the comment from Elder Cook about how youth activity is increasing. And I've been fascinated by this. You know, this will come up in the big question. There are outward symbols of church membership in as members of the church of Jesus Christ, the Latter-day Saints. What are some that you can think of? Like one that is super clear and easy for me is we don't watch R rated movies, right? Like.

you could it sort of divides people there. There's those that watch R rated movies and there's those that don't. And when we were kids, if you watched an R rated movie, you were basically a member and not in good standing fair. Facial hair. Yep.

Matt (32:51.undefined)
Yeah, facial hair, facial hair definitely. If you choose to have facial hair, you're gonna overcome an obstacle everywhere you go. Wearing a not white shirt to church like a blue shirt. Not wearing a tie to church. Shorts that are a little.

shawn (32:51.088)
Hehehehe

Sam (32:58.39)
Yep. What, what else? Yes. Beings being seen with a coffee cup or having coffee in any way, shape or form violation of the, uh, the church's, uh, health code. Um,

shawn (33:02.802)
Yup.

shawn (33:06.306)
Garments.

shawn (33:16.29)
I always heard in the 80s and 90s that if girls wore tank tops that was like the ultimate sin so covering your shoulders for some reason was... Yeah.

Matt (33:21.092)
Right. Or shorts, the modesty short police, right? You gotta have shorts that are long.

Sam (33:24.534)
Right? And this article mentions, you know, as adults, there's certain types of clothing that would conceal garments, right? Or show that you're wearing them. And people of our generation make very quick decisions or judgments about somebody's activity based on some of those things. True or right or wrong?

Matt (33:35.57)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (33:46.82)
Yeah, yeah, they look at someone certainly like, do I see the smile underneath their shirt?

shawn (33:46.94)
True.

Sam (33:50.474)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Oh gosh. So the headline is, More Millennial Mormons are Choosing a Middle Way, Neither In Nor All Out of the Faith. So a few weeks ago, I think I shared with you, I was with my son at a selling thing in Phoenix, Arizona, and we were there and we heard a guy who's a social media dude, his name's The Muscle on social media. I think his first name is Keaton. He has a beautiful home overlooking the valley in Utah.

shawn (33:50.798)
Oh my gosh.

Sam (34:19.306)
He's telling this story about his wife being sick and how she's pregnant and they were at risk of losing the baby. And in the middle of this F word laced, you know, motivational thing, and seriously F word every four words, he talked about giving his wife a priesthood blessing and he's basically stopped the meeting and said, hey, you know, I'm a member of the LDS church, I'm a Mormon and this is what we do in our church. My son and I turned to each other and we're like, oh, that's kind of interesting. So we had a conversation about that afterward.

Matt (34:29.575)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

shawn (34:38.889)
Thank you.

shawn (34:46.687)
I'm sorry.

Sam (34:49.106)
And my son, Zach, told me, he's like, Dad, you'd be surprised. He said, in Provo, in the Utah County culture, a lot of those things that you would look at as emblematic of belief don't necessarily jive with what is belief. There are people that believe that don't necessarily choose to live a certain way. They may drink coffee, they may swear. And then last week, this brings it up for me because this guy's on my social media now.

He's around his fire pit overlooking Utah Valley, cigar in one hand, and I'm pretty sure an old-fashioned in the other hand, which is an alcohol beverage. It's not, no, orange peel in it, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, this article talks about how there's a whole generation of millennials and younger people that are choosing to be quote-unquote faithful, but not following

Matt (35:28.151)
Roo beer. It's a root beer. Old fashioned.

Sam (35:47.726)
portions of the faith. So what's the latter-day lens take on that? Is that acceptable? And do you see that?

shawn (35:52.13)
So, I think, I'll let you guys, Matt, give your opinion. I think there are two scriptures that really clarify this. However, I want clarity, Sam. Are you saying that there are, it's just they're dividing on the outward appearances, or is it everything that even we consider like doctrinal faith?

Matt (36:12.28)
Yeah, yeah. No, it's like coffee, right? There's, there's things that young, it's not just young people, but there, there would be like socially converted to the church, but they don't follow all the commandments.

Sam (36:23.446)
I was super touched by this guy's story. And I actually learned a lot. I'm gonna get his book. There was another little, you know, he also talked about how important his wife was to him and how marriage was important. And then he said, yeah, and I've written a book called How to Get Divorced, right? So I was like, that's a paradox, right? It's like, which is, pick your side. But I was terribly moved. I was moved by this guy. Like I thought he had a really, really good message and yet nothing.

about who he was or how he talked aside from his deep belief in a God kind of connected with me about what it means to be a Mormon. Is that okay, Sean?

Matt (36:59.26)
felt Mormon.

shawn (37:01.866)
Interesting. I do think it's okay because there's two, there's two, I'll share my scriptures, okay? Matt thinks it's not okay, but that's okay. You can respond to the word of the Lord, Matt. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. All right. So, well, that's the first one. Yeah. So, revelation, but that could be, you could, you could twist that to mean.

Matt (37:12.904)
Okay good, good. Is one of them going to be about being lukewarm?

Mm-hmm.

Sam (37:21.11)
Wait, wait, Matt, do not taint the pool. Let Sean speak. Zip it. I'm gonna turn your camera off. Sean has to, we have to see what Sean thinks and then we can hear what you think. Everybody knows I'm a mess. So it's okay. Just, I'm gonna turn, I'm turning Matt's camera off. Okay.

Matt (37:25.38)
Sorry. Sorry, sorry. Go Sean.

shawn (37:30.574)
How about this, Matt?

Yeah. Man, how about...

Matt (37:35.224)
I was doing so good at being quiet and then Sean just like pulled me and sucked me in

shawn (37:39.258)
All right, how about this, Matt? How about this, I'll start with the verse that you aren't mocking, how about that? Okay, let's do that. First Kings, okay, First Kings, the prophet Elijah gets sent down to a sinful Israel to turn them back. And he calls all of Israel, and he calls all of the religion of Baal, and all these followers of Baal, which was essentially a secular religion. And Elijah came to all the people, this is 1 Kings 18, 21.

Matt (37:46.777)
I'm not saying anything.

shawn (38:06.87)
He came to all the people, both Israel and the followers of Baal, and he said this, How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow him. But if Baal, then follow him. And the people were confused and answered him not a word. I love this verse because God wants to give us agency, right? And I love that Elijah is basically saying, look, it's worse to be halted and standing with one foot in and one foot out.

shawn (38:35.81)
go to the right or go to the left. So now Matt's mocking revelation when it says, I would that you are cold, right? I know your works that they are cold, neither cold nor hot but they are lukewarm. I would that your works were cold or hot and not lukewarm because when it's lukewarm I spew you out of my mouth. So to me, Sam, I think it's better for us as humans to like your buddy who you're listening to, he's making decisions.

Sam (39:01.222)
Uh, he's not my buddy. I, I went to, I went to a cell seminar and hurt him. Go ahead.

shawn (39:06.478)
So your best friend at dinner was telling you about... ..

Matt (39:11.74)
Sam is like Jesus, he breaks bread with heathens and harlots because he's trying to lead them to Christ.

Sam (39:13.75)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Not sure that's a good word, but that's okay, yes, go ahead. Ha ha.

shawn (39:18.718)
So Matt, I think the interpretation of these scriptures kind of says this, look, it's not our place to judge everybody, right? If this guy decides, I'm going to drink alcohol, I'm going to coffee, I'm going to swear up and down, but I'm also going to do my best to live my covenants, I think the Lord wants him to make those choices and live with the consequence of those choices. Because sometimes when we sin, we will realize that the bitter is not as good as the sweet, and we will turn around.

Matt (39:20.828)
You

shawn (39:46.754)
But I think the Lord wants us to make those decisions. So if he's committing to those things, he's either gonna own those things and that's how God will judge him, right? Luckily Christ is the judge. Or he's gonna realize they're not good and I'm gonna turn around from.

Matt (40:01.714)
Okay, so I have two things to say. First, I don't think this is new because do you guys remember that movie, Singles Ward and the RM? Wasn't that basic?

Sam (40:09.332)
Yeah, but that was, we were old when that came out, Matt. I have to remind you, we did not grow up in that generation, but yes.

shawn (40:09.42)
boy.

Matt (40:16.068)
Right, right, but those are old movies. And in that movie, it's all about like the guy who's like straight-laced, good guy, does all the right things, Kirby Hayborne, and then his buddy who's kind of like more edgy and does crazy stuff, right? So there's always been in the church, these kind of like more edgy kind of members of the church. Why are you laughing at this, Sean?

shawn (40:36.73)
Cause I brought a scripture in, you brought that cheesy movie in, and you're saying if it was in the movie, that's how people were? Is that what you're saying?

Matt (40:42.532)
Well, no, I'm saying that like this thing with millennials, I don't think this is new. I think college kids are always like that.

Sam (40:48.634)
It's more mainstream though now among that age group. And in fact, it quotes just to kind of respond to what you're saying. There's a researcher and her name is Jana Reese came out with a book called The Next Mormons, How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church. And she has some statistics about percent of millennials that drink, that consume coffee, that are

Matt (40:50.819)
Okay.

Matt (40:59.708)
Benjamin Nol and Jana Reese. Yeah. Millennials, the next generation.

Matt (41:14.94)
Yeah.

Sam (41:17.622)
activity levels and whatnot, and it shows a rising trend. While Elder Crook says they're coming to the church and their activity levels are going up, their adherence to key tenets of the church, word of wisdom and other things, seems to be going the other way. Sean?

shawn (41:26.126)
So...

shawn (41:31.938)
So Sam, let me ask you a question about it. So if I'm going off the premise of those two scriptures, where the Lord wants us to either commit or choose the other way so that you can taste the bitter and come to the sweet, and He does not want us to be lukewarm, do you take the data as saying that more kids, the millennial kids in the church, more are being lukewarm and therefore a bad thing? Or are you taking it that they're going to the two extremes and they're going, look.

Matt (41:55.413)
Wait, wait, I didn't get to say my other point.

Sam (41:57.194)
Yeah, Matt, Matt didn't get a finish, but before, but after he's done, let me give you the Catholic angle on that. So Matt, you go ahead first and then I want to talk Catholics.

shawn (41:58.887)
Oh, sorry. Sorry.

Matt (42:05.536)
Yeah. Okay. So then this is my, the other thing I was going to say is back in the day in Kansas, I was a ward missionary and people would join the church. And I remember this one guy in particular, he joined the church. He had long hair. He had tattoos. He had a pierced ear. He had season tickets to the Kansas city chiefs, right. And, and there would be people

Sam (42:28.056)
Coach by a member of the church. Yes. Go ahead. It's church. It's basically church. Yeah.

Matt (42:30.56)
Yeah, but you know the games are always on Sundays so it makes it so he can't come. He can't come to the church, right? And I remember we would have these conversations as Ward missionaries of like, should we tell him? Should we tell him he should cut his hair? Should we tell him that he should get rid of that ear piercing? And I don't know if it was me that would say it, but eventually we would kind of come to this conclusion. When a person gets baptized, they get the gift of the Holy Ghost. And the Holy Ghost is going to tell him what he should do and what he shouldn't do.

And our job is to just appreciate having him here at church and making sure he knows that he's welcome and that he's one of us and he's a part of our community. And I noticed over the years, eventually he got rid of that earring. One day he said, hey, I sold my chief season tickets. I was like, I can't believe you did that. Those are hard to come by. And he had really good seats and he's like, I just didn't wanna miss church on those days and I was going to the chiefs games. And like over time.

Like the stuff starts, it's like the scales of darkness, whatever, start to fall away. So like all of us in our lives have things that we're working on. Some of them are outwardly visible, some of them are not. But to me, that's the sign of a healthy church. The fact that you have all of this diversity of people looking, acting, behaving differently. That means that we're a church with a big tent that welcomes everybody. And it's a sign that we're a healthy growing church. Because if everybody looks and acts

and does everything exactly the same way, then that means that you're not bringing in like all of these new people that are important because we want everyone to be a part of it. So I have no problem at all with millennials practicing church differently than how I did when I was that age, because they're probably strong in ways that I was weak at the time.

shawn (44:15.266)
Sam, bring down the bring the Catholic perspective.

Sam (44:15.438)
That's awesome. So I agree 100% with what Matt is saying. In that, I think as broad as the stakes can be in the church, we become our best selves that way. I wonder too a little bit, you know, in Catholicism and in some other religions, there are broader gradations of activity and belief. We're in a very high demand religion that asks a lot and we give a lot and we become better as we give the more we give.

I feel like when we were kids, you were either in or out and there were very clear indicators of in and out. And I think some of the things in this article show that some of those clear indicators in the past aren't so clear anymore. And some of those have changed from the church. So the R rated thing, that's a church change, right? You can watch an R. Oh, no.

Matt (45:07.542)
I don't know that they changed.

I don't think that's a... They never said, it was only in For the Strength of Youth that they said not to watch R-rated movies. And then the changes in For the Strength of Youth were almost a little more strict, right? Because now For the Strength of Youth says anything that doesn't like, I don't know, I don't know. So it's true that you don't hear the word R-rated movies anymore, but yeah, I don't know that the church changed and said, those are good for you now.

Sam (45:17.239)
Okay.

Sam (45:37.142)
Well, I think they did the wise thing, which was it was crazy to me as somebody that liked movies, it was crazy to me to go to the varsity theater on BYU campus and watch an edited R rated movie. And there was this verbiage in the, for the, right. Right. And then, and then Steven Spielberg had the big debate with Schindler's list. You can't, you can't show that movie. And so the church said, Hey, no more R rated movies, cause we're not going to edit them anymore. Right. Um,

Matt (45:47.116)
hahahaha

Matt (45:51.556)
It was so popular. So popular. Yeah. Ruined it for everybody. I know.

shawn (46:03.874)
Heh heh.

Matt (46:05.508)
Alright. He ruined it for everyone.

Sam (46:06.806)
But, but there's no way that the MPAA is a better judge of what I should and shouldn't be watching. So you, you have an R rated movie that has good things in it that are worthy of seeing, and then you have a PG 13 that is way worse, like that you should never even like, it's just garbage. So you're looking, you're looking at the movie queue of things to watch. And you're like, huh, should we watch.

Matt (46:21.898)
hahahaha

shawn (46:23.554)
So that's, so.

Sam (46:31.362)
just as an example, should we watch Oppenheimer and find a way to edit out a couple scenes? I haven't seen the whole thing yet. Or should we watch, uh, you know, should we watch, uh, Barbie, right? Well, I know it's not a cool thing to say, but Barbie is way worse, like way worse. So I guess that's what I'm saying.

Matt (46:37.301)
Yes, edit it.

Matt (46:52.574)
well I don't know because Barbie doesn't have any nudity in it Sam so you're saying worse in terms of quality of film

Sam (46:58.092)
Oh, it has way worse. It says words in it that you really don't wanna hear with your kids around, right? So.

Matt (47:02.592)
Yeah.

shawn (47:04.862)
So, in our next topic, we're gonna go over this quite a bit, but Sam, do you think that the report about millennials being a little more lukewarm when it comes to things like coffee or swearing or what they wear, do you think that's them being lukewarm, which clearly in scripture is not desired, or do you think that's them going, you know what, I'm gonna choose and commit and see how that turns out, like lukewarm, like hot or cold? Do you think it's more lukewarm or more hot or cold?

Matt (47:07.782)
Yeah.

Sam (47:29.61)
I'm, I don't have an opinion on that. Here's what I have the opinion on. I love that in today's world, we don't need to sit around looking at everybody else and making judgments about them. We can just focus on our own plate and figure out our own life and live our own life. Like you don't, you know, that there are a lot of different people doing a lot of different things. And to Matt's point, our job as members of the church and as followers of Christ are to welcome everyone into the.

tent that is the gospel of Jesus Christ. And then within that tent, we get to do our best and decide for ourselves. And I love what For the Strength of Youth now says in making our own decisions and seeking our own inspiration on what's right and wrong for us individually and not worry about what, you know, worry less about what everybody else is doing. And I think millennials, if this article is true, and who knows, it's in the Trib, so it could be complete hogwash. If it's, have you read it? Okay.

Matt (48:22.706)
No, the book's a good book. The Janeris Benjamin No book's a good book.

Sam (48:26.782)
If it's true, I think it's insight that younger generation has that is genius because it takes away the judgment. It allows you to include everyone. And then it allows someone that may not be fully in to come in over time in a bigger way. And if the gospel is true and if it is what we believe it is, one touch of it will pull you in. The gravity of it, the gravity of the good news will pull you in completely eventually.

And all you need to do is to be exposed to it, to get to that point where you want to do more, the biggest obstacle to it is shame and feeling like you're outcast or you don't belong and how stupid is it? There's a Starbucks at the entrance of BYU. Like it's the, it's not like, yeah, it's for the football team, right? Yeah, that's exactly right. Um, so.

shawn (49:02.638)
Interesting. Yeah, that's.

What a-

Matt (49:16.616)
That's for the visiting faculty and visiting proof. Well, I think the scripture I would use, Sean, the scripture I would use is, man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. Right? That's, I think the relevant scripture there.

shawn (49:23.214)
Why don't... I don't think there's...

shawn (49:32.622)
But I don't think that's even a quote, but hang on, I'm not saying that we should judge. There's no question that we shouldn't be judging. It's not our place to decide if that guy up on the stage swearing and is giving blessings to his wife is in the right or wrong. I have no, there's no way. That's a little shocking, but I'm not saying it's our place to judge. What I'm saying is if you're analyzing a book that does a study about the trends of the youth in our church, I think it's useful to try and understand why they're doing what they're doing. Cause again, if.

Sam (49:43.443)
It was shocking to me.

Matt (49:45.232)
Hahaha

Matt (49:59.483)
Yeah.

shawn (50:00.594)
If they're drinking coffee and they're dressing certain ways and swearing a lot because they don't care about the good and the bad, they're indifferent, that's a different direction. And the trends that I see are polarization. I see that the kids in the church who are good are getting better and more committed, and the kids that are lukewarm are getting worse and want to leave. They don't want to be involved at all. I'm seeing more of a separation. That's just what I'm seeing anecdotally. But that's why it's an important analyzation.

Matt (50:08.314)
Yeah.

Matt (50:22.5)
Mmm.

Matt (50:29.261)
So what I see with young people is you have these young people that look perfect, they look just like a return missionary, right? But they're doing a lot of really bad things in the quiet that nobody sees and that nobody really knows what's going on. And then you have these other kids that are doing some pretty outwardly bad things. Maybe they don't dress nice or whatever. But on the inside, they're really, really good, right?

shawn (50:50.99)
That's pretty bad.

Sam (50:52.626)
Zoolander, the fashion police. It's like, Oh, you're, you're not you don't dress very well. Yeah.

Matt (50:56.645)
Right? Like, I don't know, maybe they got like purple hair or they got like these ripped up jeans, right? There's... Well, what I'm saying is it doesn't... Yeah, I'm just saying like the fact that young people... That's right. Right. We all have... Right. And we can't see that. Yeah. And we can't see what they're doing. So the fact that young people are doing this...

shawn (51:01.358)
That's not bad, man. What are you talking about?

Sam (51:06.69)
Matt's having a tough time picking the right sin, but, but your point is the same, Matt, right? No matter what's going on, right? Your heart is in one place. Yes. We all sin differently. Yeah.

shawn (51:19.982)
Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. I'm just fascinated by Sam, your question. I'd like to have insight. I'd like to know what it is about. What is behind the saints, young saints that's causing them to be

Matt (51:32.456)
Starbucks, you know how good coffee is. Have you been to Starbucks? Like I don't drink coffee at Starbucks, but when I worked at the bank, this teller would bring me hot chocolate from Starbucks. It was the most amazing thing. It was.

shawn (51:39.157)
Oh.

shawn (51:46.29)
Okay, Matt, you're saying it doesn't matter if they're lukewarm or if they're really going, wait a minute, I'm gonna question this cultural part that's not very clear in church. You're saying it doesn't matter. You're saying, just don't judge. Oh, you went there, so I'm gonna push on you.

Matt (51:57.032)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (52:01.152)
Um, I don't think I'm saying that it doesn't matter. I'm saying the reason that millennials do what they do is because coffee is more alluring now than it was when we were kids.

shawn (52:10.878)
Okay, but then but then the dip but then there's a big difference in the motive there if they're going like I just Don't care what my parents believe in and what this church says and eventually I'm just gonna be out anyway So I'm just gonna do it looks good feels good sounds good or if they're like, oh, wait a minute This seems like a cultural thing. Let me go try it. Let me see if has a negative effect on my soul Then that's a better reason. So I think it's important why they're doing it

Sam (52:10.894)
That's true.

Matt (52:33.93)
Okay, okay Sean I'm gonna give you the points for that.

You don't want my points?

shawn (52:41.007)
No, I don't.

Matt (52:44.348)
All right. Well, let's move on to the big question this week, because the big question really ties in well with Sam's question that his thought provoker. Okay. This is the last thing we're going to discuss of the Mitt Romney book. So in the, in the McKay Coppins interview that we linked to before, he just tells stories about Mitt Romney. And one of the stories he tells cause he would go interview Mitt Romney. And he was like, sometimes I would be done with the interview and he'd want me to hang around longer to talk. He's like, I think maybe he was lonely or something.

Sam (52:46.594)
Good topic.

Matt (53:13.776)
But one of the things that he liked to talk about were the TV shows that he was watching. Go ahead, Sam.

shawn (53:19.831)
Ha ha!

Sam (53:21.25)
Why does Mitt Romney always come across as slightly creepy in the books and the articles and the conversations? So anyway, sorry, go ahead.

shawn (53:24.974)
Hahaha

Matt (53:29.084)
So.

shawn (53:29.174)
Don't you, don't you, hey, you're from Utah. Stop dogging Mitt Romney, Sam.

Sam (53:32.982)
No, I like him. I mean, it's just something there.

Matt (53:33.5)
Yeah.

shawn (53:35.302)
Utahns hate Mitt Romney, you know?

Matt (53:37.5)
So the TV shows that McKay Coppin specifically mentioned that Romney loved to watch and loved to talk about are Better Call Saul, Ted Lasso, and Game of Thrones. Now each of those shows is rated TVMA. Now again, I don't wanna make this about judging other people and their choices. I really don't care what Mitt Romney chooses to watch, but I wanna ask this question. How should we decide?

shawn (54:00.578)
Hehehe

Matt (54:05.04)
what kind of media we're gonna consume. Like each of those programs crosses a line that some people have about their media, right? Ted Lasso's.

shawn (54:14.151)
Sam nailed it in the last monologue, in the last section. You nailed it. Why would I? Yeah, oh sorry.

Matt (54:17.628)
Wait, wait, this is my question. Wait, this is my question. I'm not done, Sean. No, this is, this is the big question. Is the proper approach to media to have a line that you will not cross, no matter what, or is there some other way to decide? Like what, right? Like in my family, our rule is two swear words, we turn it off. And we're not gonna watch it after two swear words because that's like a line that we draw in the sand and don't watch it after that.

Sam (54:20.694)
Yeah, but you don't get a second question. I feel like you've had too many questions so far, Matt. Okay.

shawn (54:36.022)
Yeah... Oh.

shawn (54:47.658)
Yeah, you should, we should have a state. Yeah, I think you're right. You should have a standard and that could be okay for anybody. But I don't think that standard should default to what does the MPAA deem as right or wrong from my home. But like you.

Matt (54:47.684)
Is that, is that what's the.

Sam (55:02.653)
So in our house, we've never seen an R-rated movie in the house.

Matt (55:06.104)
Yeah, in my house, because we don't watch shows with swearing, when it's late at night and I can't sleep, I go downstairs and I turn on the TV and turn on the subtitles and I read all of the bad words so that nobody will hear the bad words because then I'll be breaking the rules, right? Because the bad language doesn't bother me so much.

Sam (55:21.474)
So, so, but, but here, so here's my question, Matt. You and I are similar, right? My kids grew up knowing that I was watching stuff that I wouldn't let them watch. And it drove my wife nuts. Cause she's like, you're a fricking hypocrite. Like you go watch this, you won't let that, I'm like, I'm like, I'm not gonna let Hollywood decide what I can and can't watch. Like to me, Schindler's List has a great message. Saving Private Ryan has a great message. Gladiator has a great message.

Matt (55:33.425)
Right. Yeah.

shawn (55:35.305)
Ha ha ha!

Matt (55:38.012)
Ha ha

Matt (55:44.848)
Yeah.

shawn (55:51.659)
But the movie Airplane, which is PG-13, has nudity in it.

Sam (55:52.066)
Game of Thrones, Game of Thrones actually has an incredible message. Better call Saul. Breaking Bad, which, yeah.

Matt (55:54.454)
Hahaha

Matt (56:00.048)
Wait, wait, Game of Thrones? Game of Thrones to me is the ultimate, just like, there's, I mean, again, I watch, I don't know these shows, I just hear people talk about them, and then I watch the episode until, until the two people, until the brother and sister are having sex with each other, and then I'm like, I can't watch that show anymore. So I guess I don't really know what Game of Thrones is about, I just watched like an episode.

shawn (56:01.846)
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Sam (56:07.458)
Have you seen it? Yeah, see here's the hypocrisy. Right, well. I probably watched it on vidAngel. Actually, we should probably delete this part. But here.

Matt (56:25.488)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, what does it matter? What does it- clearly Mitt Romney watched- Mitt Romney's watching Game of Thrones, he doesn't have a problem with- yeah.

Sam (56:33.482)
Yeah. I think there's two issues here. Number one is the issue that we make judgments about other people who are members of the church based on what they say they do and don't watch. So met Romney, right? We instantly heard that you're like, how could that possibly be? Right. You, you mentioned Reed coach of a coach of Kansas city. Like I hear stuff all the time and I'm like, really? The, the coach who just passed away, right? He used to meet up with his friends and at his funeral, we heard about things he did that kind of made you go, wait, huh?

Matt (56:42.736)
Yeah.

Matt (56:47.484)
Hahaha

Matt (56:51.983)
Yeah, Andy Reid.

Yeah, yeah.

Sam (57:03.602)
Harry Reid, right? Speaker of the house for a long time, right? Like, like, uh, there is something in the church where you feel like we see what they do outwardly, and then we're going to make an inward judgment about them. And I think the brilliance of millennials somehow, and I, I haven't figured it out well enough to say I'm comfortable living that way because I'm not, but somehow they figured out a way to say, excuse me, we're going to accept everyone.

Matt (57:07.782)
Yeah.

Sam (57:32.178)
And we're going to allow people to be their authentic self. In fact, that is the word of the year, according to the Merriam-Webster Webster dictionary is authentic. Right. So what, what does it take to be, be authentic? So yeah.

Matt (57:39.6)
Oh. Well, so here's my problem with the draw the line approach, right? Ted Lasso? Okay, there's a lot of naughty stuff in Ted Lasso, but like it is such a feel good story. Like Ted-

shawn (57:39.798)
Hahaha

Sam (57:46.638)
Okay.

Sam (57:51.054)
Great show though.

Yeah. My wife, my wife can't make it through one episode. She cannot get through an episode. It's so offensive and it, and it hurts her sensibility. Sean, I would quote the scripture from, what was it where it was hard on their hearts. Uh, I think it was Jacob or somewhere. Like there are some things that for some people, it's so difficult to hear. I'm hardened. I can take it all. I've been in the car business my 30 years, my entire life.

Matt (57:58.428)
Because of the bad language, right? Yeah.

Matt (58:10.48)
Yeah.

shawn (58:17.079)
You are...

Sam (58:20.538)
nothing shocks me. And so I need to see some of that stuff every now again, just to remember I'm alive. Just kidding.

shawn (58:26.35)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Matt (58:27.776)
So Sean, what's your approach?

shawn (58:30.498)
Well, I do think the standard is obviously smart to set your standards, but I don't think that standard should be based on what the government or some agency decides for us. I, so there's references in tools today. Like there's parent guides for every TV show in every movie. And it lists all of the bad stuff that's in something. It's really easy to go through and decide, well, is this worth seeing or not?

Matt (58:38.844)
So how do you decide?

Sam (58:52.502)
Isn't it, isn't it ironic that you can actually read about all the bad stuff before you see the bad stuff? So you read the stuff, then you see the stuff, then you read it again. And then it's like.

Matt (58:57.933)
I know sometimes I go and I-

shawn (59:03.266)
Ha ha ha.

Matt (59:04.343)
I go on IMDB to be like, okay, is this a movie that I can watch? And they'll be like, there's four this words, five this words, 10 this words. And I'm like, well, I've just read all of the bad words to find out like.

Sam (59:11.17)
Yeah.

Sam (59:15.306)
And then, and then if you really want to have fun, you go back to the 1980s and you watch a 1980s movie like war games. And you're like, we talked like that. Like, like it has way more swear words in it than any movies today does war games.

Matt (59:22.082)
Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Hahaha

shawn (59:30.114)
Well, yeah, because that's the point is there's a whole era where that rating system wasn't consistent. And so you've got a lot of PG and PG-13 movies with really bad stuff in them. So if you're just if your standard is just the government's rating system, you're in trouble. That's not good.

Sam (59:44.undefined)
Yeah.

Matt (59:44.808)
So, For the Strength of Youth says we should avoid things that make it seem good to sin, right? And we should avoid like gratuitous violence and we should avoid like the sexual immorality stuff. But right, I don't think that we would say you should not consume anything where you don't feel the spirit while you're watching it, which was my mission standard, but that was hard for me to keep.

shawn (01:00:05.778)
So can I, but can I throw something in there that's challenging? If that were the case, then you shouldn't have been going to public school, right? Because the garbage and the filth in public schools was, you know what I mean? So I struggle with that because I go, yeah, because I struggle with that because some of the times I go, wait a minute, I know for a fact that the things that my son at school heard today and experienced today.

Matt (01:00:15.867)
Yeah.

Sam (01:00:19.374)
So, bingo, yeah.

shawn (01:00:33.238)
are worse than R rated. They're X rated if it was by the standards. And yet I have a problem with him and I watching this movie today that's going to have three S words in it. I don't.

Matt (01:00:36.537)
Yeah.

Matt (01:00:41.804)
Yeah, well, so here's Sally. Sally is Karen. Well, so I had this job once. I worked at a group home for people with developmental disabilities and the kinds of people that work in those places are not super wholesome in their language. And I would hear just curse words all day long so much that when I would go home at night, that language is in my head all day. And so...

Sam (01:00:43.65)
Which S word is that?

shawn (01:00:45.646)
Hehehehe

Sam (01:00:46.755)
Sally.

Matt (01:01:09.664)
I really enjoyed Sundays because it was the one day when I didn't have all of that stuff just going through my head all day. And so I did start to appreciate, like I said, okay, there is good language and bad language and I wanna seek out environments with the good language and not the bad language. But I do notice when in entertainment, I'll get in these kicks where I'm watching, I don't know, Ted Lasso or these shows, I'll get into one of these shows and I'm like, I love it, I love it, I just wanna see how it ends, I wanna see what happens.

And I do over time sort of sense this like distance that develops between me and God. And then I say, okay, that's right. And then I say, okay, I'm going to not watch that. I'm going to do better at my scripture study and stuff. But I don't know. I just don't know that there's a right answer to these questions. That's why I thought we should discuss it. I don't know that there's a right answer.

shawn (01:02:01.644)
Sorry.

Sam (01:02:01.927)
And maybe that's why the for the strength of youth says use your own judgment.

shawn (01:02:06.346)
Well, and not only that, but yeah, one of the, so remember King Solomon was ready to like live this new life of, of ruling over Israel. And God says, okay, ask me for whatever you want to ask me. And instead of asking for power and wealth, Solomon asked, just give me wisdom to make good, good choices. And God was so pleased as I'm so impressed that you chose just to have wisdom. I mean, that's what we should be doing, right? Is just trying to make the best decisions by

Matt (01:02:06.608)
Yeah.

Matt (01:02:23.619)
Yeah.

shawn (01:02:34.178)
going to our Father in Heaven and getting that spirit. But man, it's hard, because there's a lot of fun things out there that don't really reach good standards.

Matt (01:02:42.492)
So the takeaway message I got from you guys is we should try to consume wholesome media or consume bad media where our wives can't hear what we're listening to. And we should not.

Sam (01:02:53.206)
Wait, why is Matt looking at me when he says that? Come on, Matt, that's not right.

shawn (01:02:53.495)
No.

Matt (01:02:57.48)
We- I guarantee that Sean's wife is exactly the same as your wife and my wife when it comes to those things. ..

shawn (01:03:01.878)
Hahaha

Sam (01:03:03.378)
I just never thought about going downstairs and muting it and let it allow, and just reading the subtitles. Something tells me the three of us need to get together Saturday night. Cause we're going to be in big trouble once this thing gets listened to. Yes, I agree. Yeah.

Matt (01:03:07.464)
I have to... Well... And that we shouldn't judge other people, right? What they do and what they don't do in the church because who knows where they're at. And I'm not going to justify people doing bad things, but we all learn and grow. We all become better people through the choices we make. And the whole purpose of the atonement is to make it possible for us to repent and change. And so...

shawn (01:03:16.735)
I'm sorry.

Matt (01:03:37.164)
You can do something and say, hey, I feel like that was a bad thing to do. I shouldn't have done it. And then I can repent and change and do differently the next time. But if I'm gonna judge somebody by that choice that they made at that moment, that's me being wrong because I don't see everything that's happening.

shawn (01:03:51.214)
Great message, great message. Yeah, and we have to be careful not to preach that our religion is a religion purely of works. That all we need to do is look at each other's works, and if you're really righteous, then you're saved. It has to do with much more than works. It is grace that we're, by grace we are saved, and we're all trying.

Matt (01:03:58.096)
Yeah.

Matt (01:04:09.988)
Hey, for you listeners that tuned in hoping to hear a lot about politics, I did my best. I really, really tried. But somehow we ended up talking more about coffee and movies than politics. We'll do better next week, guys. We need to repent and do more politics. Okay, listener, talk to you again next week.

Sam (01:04:24.117)
and gals.