November 15, 2023; Censure of Rep. Tlaib, Performative politics, Implanting neuralink to create cyborgs, Ballard and Romney

Matt (00:00.808)
Hey welcome listener to another exciting episode of The Latter Day Lens. We're going to just get right into it this week. So I just read the news that President M. Russell Ballard died today. Did you guys hear that news?

shawn (00:12.982)
Yeah.

Sam (00:13.117)
I heard, yeah.

Matt (00:15.252)
I was writing down the numbers with my kids. So the top, after him, the next four people that are in line to be president of the church, aren't they really, really old? That's Elder Holland, right? And after him would be Eyring. I guess before him would be Oakes.

shawn (00:26.174)
Yeah, and he's not doing well.

shawn (00:31.194)
Oakes who's like in his 90s.

Matt (00:33.672)
Yeah. And then do you know who comes in after so if so it goes right now Nelson Oakes Holland Eyring and then guess who's next. Ert Uchtdorf. Could you imagine that? In a yeah in a couple years maybe you could have a prophet president Uchtdorf who

shawn (00:43.166)
Yeah, the German! Erkdorf. What's wrong with that? That'd be awesome.

Sam (00:53.56)
Wait, wait, how do you get, how do you have a list of four people and go to a couple of years? That can't happen that fast.

shawn (00:54.498)
What's wrong with that?

shawn (00:59.406)
They're all old. They're all nineties. President Nelson. Yeah, yeah. Holland is in the, like not doing well.

Matt (00:59.992)
Sam, they're all in the hospital right now.

Matt (01:06.933)
Yeah.

Sam (01:09.645)
Well, if president Uchtdorf becomes prophet Uchtdorf, I predict that the church buys a corporate airplane.

Matt (01:09.772)
Yeah.

shawn (01:17.006)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Matt (01:19.019)
Hahaha! Sam's going out on a limb there. Okay, well, go ahead.

Sam (01:19.055)
Ha ha ha.

shawn (01:21.75)
Yeah, Matt, I must not be up to date on the Utah rumors about Uxdorf, because you said it as if like, oh, that would be weird.

Matt (01:28.404)
He's a Democrat, Sean, he's a Democrat.

Sam (01:31.117)
Yeah. Progressive Democrat, very socially, socially central, centrist socially.

shawn (01:31.17)
That's the point?

Matt (01:32.724)
Yeah, and a non-American, the first non-American.

shawn (01:36.706)
So what?

shawn (01:41.026)
So what?

Matt (01:42.428)
Also, he gives general conference talks that everybody enjoys. Everybody likes that we talk with thinking about. Anyhow, let's move on to this other topic, Sean, because you gave me a book assignment, a thing I was supposed to read, and I did. I read it. And I don't think it says what you think it says. So I'm talking about, I'm talking about...

shawn (01:46.766)
Hahaha

Sam (01:47.844)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

shawn (02:00.478)
It does too. It does too. Your summary, I agree with all of it. Okay, go ahead. Yeah.

Matt (02:05.04)
Oh, you do? Okay. So it's the Carney book about marriage. And you were saying that I was saying that her most of her evidence would be single mother homes and you were saying no, it's just single parent, but it really is. She's she's very hard on single mother homes. That's like that's her evidence, right is like single mother homes lead to all of these are less likely to have all of these positive outcomes. And then

shawn (02:29.846)
Yeah, I don't think there's anything that I said that disagreed with that. It was, her language was mostly single parent homes, like her whole book is two parent homes are better for the kids. But yes, there's an underlying premise that it's single moms. Yeah.

Matt (02:45.342)
Yeah.

Sam (02:45.501)
Are we still talking about this topic? I'm just curious. I just woke up.

Matt (02:48.296)
Well, you... Oh, Sam, you said that I had to read the book and then I'd have to return and report about the book.

Sam (02:56.564)
I know, but how often do we say we're going to do things and then we never do them? I would have, sometimes it's like somebody saying, Hey, let's do lunch sometime. And nobody ever intends to actually do lunch. I never thought you'd actually read the book. What did you find out in the book?

Matt (02:59.813)
Hahahaha

Matt (03:04.744)
What?

shawn (03:06.478)
What?

Matt (03:10.214)
Well, so this is the thing I want to ask Sean about. Her solutions to the problem are, very specifically, give money to the poor and encourage these government programs. One of them is called fatherhood.gov and another one has this ad program called Take Time to Be a Dad Today.

and she shows that these media pushes by the government help encourage men to be fathers. And these both seem like things that you haven't liked in the past, but those are her solutions for fixing single mother homes in America, so do you like her solutions?

shawn (03:45.334)
Well, a couple of things. I don't think the book is about how to solve it. The book was just providing the evidence that it is a privilege to have two parents in the home to kids. That is a great institution, one of the better institutions to help kids get out of it. Yeah, of course she puts out there some of her opinions and suggestions on how to solve it, but that's not what her research is about. That was just her opinion. Those were just her opinions. There's a lot of ways to solve it, I think.

Matt (04:11.312)
like, like give money to the poor. She says we got to solve these social inequities where so many African American fathers are like not able to be at home because we incarcerate black men at a higher rate than white men and

shawn (04:14.294)
Well, I'll give you an attic.

shawn (04:27.41)
No doubt, like one of our listeners wrote in and says, hey, look, you can't just focus on, if you're trying to solve this, you can't just focus on one aspect of it, in this case, marriage, which is an agreed upon aspect. No one disagrees. Yes, there's racism. Yes, there's poverty. There's K through 12, right? Yeah, of course, of course. If you're asking my opinion on a way to solve it, yeah, in my research, I think that the voucher system for,

Matt (04:42.881)
Yeah.

Matt (04:46.786)
Sure.

shawn (04:55.702)
for homes, I think is a decent way to do it. I've got some anecdotal evidence on why, and I know that's a government program, I'm not saying that.

Matt (04:57.004)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (05:00.672)
Hey, Sean, I'm in favor of the government spending money to solve social problems. I'm always in favor of that.

Sam (05:05.604)
Hmm.

shawn (05:08.187)
Yeah, but the voucher system takes money that's available and it gives people choices. It gives people choices. It's not just here's a paycheck. It's not just, I like if we're going to spend... What?

Matt (05:13.164)
Yeah.

Matt (05:17.42)
Do you know what could give them the most choice? Universal basic income. You just give them the cash. Like it's. Ha ha ha.

Sam (05:21.036)
Oh my goodness gracious. What does this have to do with Sean's original premise? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Oh, Matt, Matt brings everything back to UBI. I love it.

shawn (05:27.562)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. My original question.

Matt (05:28.464)
Okay, alright, alright. Okay, fine, we're coming after you.

shawn (05:33.133)
Hahaha.

shawn (05:37.098)
Yeah, did you just really just spend four days reading a whole book list so you could come in here and drop a mic saying Universal Income?

Matt (05:37.224)
Okay, Sam.

Matt (05:42.78)
No, I really, it only took me about an hour to read the book. But then, because I read these kinds of books all the time. So those ones, but if I were to read like fiction, it would take me forever. I would never finish a fiction book.

shawn (05:46.175)
Oh, okay.

Sam (05:46.519)
Oh.

shawn (05:50.573)
Let me say this, this is

Okay, Matt, let me just, here's my point on it. My original question was why doesn't the left at all acknowledge this or wanna do anything about it? Why do they run away from it? I think I got some good answers from you and from some of our listeners. If you're asking, continually asking me what the policy should be, I got an anecdotal policy. Look, I have a very real experience with a single mom and her son who, one of her suggestions in the book was get them out of those neighborhoods.

Matt (06:08.731)
Oh.

shawn (06:23.322)
into affluent neighborhoods. And I have seen over the last seven years, this family solved so many issues and it's heartwarming because having, they made the choice to live in affluent areas, even though they couldn't afford it. And the community that surrounded this mom and her son, and she is so poor, more poor than anyone I've ever met, made all the difference. Her son's doing great now, but it's because we all, so many of us got involved in his life. So.

Matt (06:31.456)
because you got them out of the slums?

shawn (06:51.254)
Getting out of those poor areas was one of her suggestions, and this voucher, a living voucher, would help people do that.

Sam (06:57.14)
I don't want to point back to what we talked about that episode because we don't want to rehash it, but I think that's what we said, right? It's the economic access to economics and access to education that will help improve that situation more than two family, two parent households.

Matt (07:02.968)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe hehehe hehehe

shawn (07:10.57)
But my argument was in economics. She's poor, Sam, she's dirt poor. She has been dirt poor for the last eight, nine years. No, no. Ha ha ha.

Matt (07:16.088)
She's living beyond her means, Sam.

Sam (07:17.912)
No, that was the other joke I was going to make. No, she's, she's living in an, she's, she has access to a better education and a better economic situation because she's in a better neighborhood. So until she drags the neighborhood down.

shawn (07:30.134)
Yeah, but a system like a housing, no, a housing voucher allowed that not give you her tons and tons and tons of money, not her her.

Sam (07:38.67)
Right.

Matt (07:38.7)
giving her a little bit of money. I just want to point out that this is the opposite of what Ezra Taft Benson said. Do you remember he gave this talk where he says, the world would take the people out of the slums. The gospel changes the people and takes the slums out of the people and then they take themselves out of the slums.

shawn (07:41.875)
Well, but it's...

shawn (07:46.722)
Oh, wow.

shawn (07:56.124)
Hey, could I just point out that when you pretend to quote prophets, sometimes you have a facetious voice pretending to be Ezra Taft Benson.

Matt (08:04.38)
I should have said it more like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. Okay, Sam, now the next listener's coming after you, pal. Continuing on the theme of topics that we won't let die. The United Auto Workers recently won a 25% pay raise from the big three automakers. Does this convince any of you that unions are useful to workers or will this action turn out to be bad for workers?

shawn (08:08.321)
Oh

Sam (08:09.396)
Oh no.

Sam (08:13.949)
Oh, here we go. Let's go.

Sam (08:21.14)
Yeah, please. Oh no. Gosh.

Matt (08:33.928)
Anyone have any predictions? There are lots of non-union auto plants in the US southeast. Wages there are going to be much lower than at UAW plants. Will those wages go up because of this? Will those workers be more inclined to join the UAW? Obviously, yes. Obviously, the unions are helping increase wages across America right now.

Sam (08:51.96)
No, they're not. They're actually not. Anybody that knows the behind the scenes of the UAW strike and what they ended up accomplishing and how they accomplished them, it knows that there was a lot of grandstanding, there was a lot of positioning, and at the end of the day, the workers could have negotiated a better deal than what the UAW ended up negotiating. So I won't go into it a ton, but I would tell you that there, that there's backstory to that, that isn't obvious to every, everybody in the, uh, in the news.

shawn (08:52.022)
Well, but Sam, but Sam.

shawn (08:58.062)
Let's hear it.

Matt (09:21.484)
But the Screen Actors Guild, those rich, rich movie stars, they're excited because their strike got them something. And there were the casino workers in Las Vegas that threatened to strike and got big pay raises. Yeah, see?

Sam (09:25.183)
Yeah.

Sam (09:28.968)
Yeah.

Sam (09:33.732)
pharmacists in the Midwest. Like everybody right now is striking for a piece of their, uh, you know, salary increase as we seek to limit, uh, inflation, which, you know.

Matt (09:44.796)
And the people that don't do it, they end up falling further and further behind. And they say, why are things not going so well for me? I work so hard. And I just whisper in their ears, join a union, form a union, start a union. They won't let us unionize, but if they would, I would definitely unionize. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

shawn (09:53.303)
Oh boy.

shawn (09:57.09)
Hehehehe

Sam (09:57.584)
Oh no. Are you, are you part of the union Matt?

Sam (10:02.724)
Yeah.

Would you really? So, so, so I believe that the individual worker or workers as part of an organization, if the organization is really listening to its employee base, it's going to provide competitive wages. That means regular increases over long periods of time that catch up for things like inflation. So, you know, the, the UAW for, for a long time unions for a long time hurt employees because they make it.

Matt (10:25.568)
So I'm not Union Sam.

Sam (10:33.048)
difficult to give employees wage increases. So yeah, they fall behind over time. And it took a drastic increase to catch up, but there will be an economic impact to it. So

Matt (10:37.95)
Yeah.

Matt (10:46.112)
So anecdotally, last year, my boss came to me and said, you know what, we've decided that everybody needs a raise to keep up with inflation. And so they raised me. And then like a month ago, my boss came to me and said, you know what, it just hasn't been enough. We're gonna raise you another .5%. And I was like, hmm. And I didn't even have to organize to make that happen. I just had to be a good employee. Working at maybe the right, yeah, so it's true.

Sam (11:09.997)
See?

See?

Matt (11:15.412)
Maybe you don't need unions. I didn't need a union, but...

Sam (11:15.872)
And anytime an employer comes to you with a 0.5% increase though, that's scary. Get them to round up, Matt. Get them to round up. 13.

Matt (11:22.324)
No, no. Oh, I should have negotiated, huh? I didn't even negotiate at all. I was just like, wow, I thought I was gonna get in trouble and instead you're giving me a lot more money.

Sam (11:33.488)
Do you know why you, do you know why you responded the way you did? Because you don't believe in the American dream. When he came to you and offered to give you the increase, you're like, wait, you can't do this. This destroys my perception of reality. Take it back. But you didn't do it. You quietly took it and then you refused to talk about it until now. And now the truth is out. The American dream is alive and well and the worker ability to negotiate and provide value and get increase is secure.

shawn (11:38.99)
Hahaha!

Matt (11:39.226)
Huh. Hahahaha!

Matt (12:01.824)
You don't even have to negotiate. That's my message. You just have to be a good, hard worker, and then they'll notice.

Sam (12:06.06)
No, listen, the market, the marketplace negotiates because if you are an employer and you want the best employees, which is the best way to provide the best product in the marketplace, you're going to pay better than anybody else and you're going to hire the, and attract the best talent, which will create and produce the best product. Like the company I'm in, we, we pay top notch for the best talent out there on all levels.

shawn (12:08.875)
I'm sorry.

Sam (12:32.968)
And we're constantly updating that to make sure we get the best. And any employer that falls asleep or cost cuts to try to cheat, they ultimately pay with their product. Have you ever heard of this whole idea of expensing your way in? I mean, like it's very rare during an economic downturn to try to expense your way into a long-term profit. Some people will try to do it. They'll try to cut and, and it's a failing proposition. You're either growing or dying, but whoever wrote that won't believe it. They see.

Matt (12:37.015)
Yeah.

Sam (13:01.484)
the headlines of a 30% salary increase by UAW. And it's just like, wow, how could anybody earn a 30%? I think without a union, and maybe this gets me into trouble. You could negotiate a better deal more consistently over time than what they were able to negotiate in one fell swoop.

shawn (13:22.11)
Matt, I also read that only, I didn't know this, but only 10% of workers in the US are part of a union. So if it's so, why is that said? Why does it need to be fixed? Maybe it's already fixed.

Matt (13:29.884)
Yeah, it's really sad. We need to fix that.

Matt (13:35.136)
Because unions, because not everybody has the negotiating power of Sam. Like, clearly, I should have talked to Sam before I negotiated my race, and things might have gone a little bit better for me. So people don't have...

shawn (13:45.674)
You didn't, but Sam proved, but your situation proves Sam's point. You didn't need to negotiate anything. You just were a really good worker.

Matt (13:52.108)
But now I realize I could have got a little bit more if I had been better.

Sam (13:54.892)
No, but, but listen, here's the problem with workers though. And everybody in the, in, in the economy is you believe the lie. You believe that someone else can, can stand up for you better than you yourself can. The government has taught you that unions have taught you that in the marketplace has taught you that it's complete BS. You've got to know your value and your worth. You got to work on yourself to make you yourself the most competitive, whatever you do in the marketplace.

shawn (14:11.575)
Preach it, Sam.

Sam (14:21.696)
And the free market will pay for that. And it'll pay handsomely. If you sit back and say, Hey, I'm owed something, or I'm going to wait for somebody to swoop down from on high and crown me with some 12.7526% increase. Like you're going to die old and tired. Like have some confidence, man. Yeah.

Matt (14:35.312)
Hahaha!

Ha ha!

Matt (14:43.356)
Okay, I'll work on that. I have been worrying lately that I might die old and tired. Because I feel overworked and underpaid. But I'll work on that. Okay. Hahaha.

Sam (14:52.346)
Well, listen, it starts with believing in the American Dream, and if you'll do that, there will be hope. So, Matt, I'm going to commit you in the old missionary style. Will you read about the American Dream and teach about it this semester to your students?

shawn (14:55.49)
Oh, no.

Matt (15:06.404)
Uh, no. No, no, I don't think I will. You- would you be a guest speaker and help them believe in themselves?

Sam (15:09.025)
Do you want me to come in and help you? Yes. Listen, listen to me. I need, I need your, I need your students to be totally confident in their abilities to, uh, to, to help the marketplace and, uh, we could help anyway. Next topic.

shawn (15:14.194)
You can't afford, you can't afford Sam, you can't afford him.

Matt (15:16.832)
I know, I know, I'll be like, you guys are good enough, you are smart enough.

Matt (15:30.34)
Okay, so the next thing in the mailbag, this one I wrote in the mailbag for myself to make me feel happy. So I know that Sam didn't watch the last GOP presidential debate because Sam has this thing where he's like, I'm not gonna watch a bunch of losers talk about political issues. But...

Sam (15:44.468)
No, that's not at all what I said. Do you, so you guys are bantering back and forth about the debate and I come in and I say, Oh, I'm sorry. Is Trump there? And the answer was.

Matt (15:55.419)
No, of course not. He was in court or something like that.

Sam (15:56.828)
And if Trump isn't there, it's irrelevant to which you said, oh no, it's not irrelevant. What was your comment? It's completely relevant because they're talking about real topics. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead.

Matt (16:04.816)
I can't remember. Yeah. I mean, I teach political science. I'm always going to watch the debates. OK, Chris Christie said something that we've been trying to say for a long time. He said, when they were talking about Ukraine, he said that in 1992, we made an agreement with Ukraine to defend them if they gave their nuclear weapons to Russia. And then he said, we don't have a choice and that we must protect Ukraine.

shawn (16:06.83)
It's not irrelevant. It's not irrelevant, Sammy.

Matt (16:31.228)
So now that Chris Christie finally agrees with us, do you think people will start believing us? That we know what we're talking about on these issues? I think actually Chris Christie probably listens to us and he's like, oh man, I should use that in my irrelevant debate stump.

shawn (16:46.815)
I like that Matt spends five minutes on a rhetorical question so that he can just point out that a prominent leader repeated what I came up with. I like it.

Matt (16:52.502)
Hehehehehehehehehehe

Sam (16:53.837)
Uhhh

Matt (16:57.32)
No, haven't you guys heard people saying like, if that's true, why aren't they talking about it on the news? I've heard so many people saying to me, if we really made a treaty with Ukraine in 1992, why doesn't anybody talk about it? And so now somebody's talked about it. So, does that mean...

shawn (17:12.965)
I hope so. I hope it'll get people on board, but...

Sam (17:15.945)
So I have a question. We all agree on this. Nobody disagrees. The big question.

Matt (17:18.676)
Yeah. We all agree that Chris Christie listens to us, right? And he got his idea from us. Yeah.

Sam (17:23.892)
Yes, yes, yes. The question is, is why don't Republicans as a party support the idea of defending Ukraine? And they have landed on this crazy stump that they're anti-Ukraine. It is bizarre. It's not the party that we grew up with.

shawn (17:37.966)
Well, Vivek, look, Vivek Ramaswamy started off preaching, it was like literally a pro-Russian propaganda, propaganda lie. Eh, eh.

Matt (17:45.684)
Russian propaganda, yeah. He said Zelensky's a Nazi, Sam. The Republican presidential candidate said, Zelensky's a Nazi.

shawn (17:54.347)
And Sam Vivik.

Sam (17:55.201)
Which by the way is what Putin said Zelensky is.

Matt (17:57.692)
Yeah, I know. It's like he's watching RT, right? Like, oh, tell me more. He also said that Tucker Carlson should have been moderating the debate because he's a nice conservative who understands what's happening in the world.

shawn (17:59.838)
It's a f- Yeah.

Sam (18:02.017)
Yeah.

shawn (18:05.17)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam (18:07.532)
And, and, and guess what this guy is trying to be. He's trying to be Trump's vice president. And guess what? Trump is the Republican candidate. So this whole process is pretty irrelevant. Like somebody needs to get to Trump or whoever his VEEP is and convince him that we need to defend Ukraine.

shawn (18:11.434)
Yes, that's right.

shawn (18:19.298)
But it's, you know why, you know.

shawn (18:24.662)
You know why I think Sam, it's good to have these is because it's nice for, in a rare moment, to listen to actual conservatives speaking, like actual... No, not like him, like all the other, the other four, who sounded like really legitimate, good, substantial, like they were substantive, that talk was. Well, no, it just, it just, it makes you feel like when Trump is gone, not an option.

Matt (18:33.576)
Like Vivek Ramaswamy.

Sam (18:42.574)
M-makes you feel better, doesn't it?

Matt (18:44.816)
Hahahaha

Matt (18:51.096)
Oh, yeah, then Vivek will step in. Are you kidding me? Well, we'll talk... We'll... Yeah, he is. He's in third place right now. Oh, okay. Well... We're gonna talk more about the debates on your thought-provoking question, Sean, so I'm gonna sort of leave it for a little bit. I just wanted listeners to know, like, Chris Christie's listening to us, and getting his foreign policy advice from the things we talk about. Okay, so I get to go first this week on the Thought Provoker.

Sam (18:51.264)
Yeah.

shawn (18:53.438)
No one's gonna follow Vivek Ramaswamy. That's ridiculous. He doesn't have any polling. He's not polling. Hardly.

shawn (19:13.826)
Okay.

shawn (19:21.006)
That's an interesting one.

Matt (19:21.128)
So this week the US House voted to censure Representative Rashida Tlaib, I don't know if I said her name right, over her Israel Hamas rhetoric in a stunning rebuke for using this phrase. It's something like from sea to sea or from river to river.

shawn (19:38.806)
from the river, from the river to the sea.

Matt (19:41.66)
yeah palestine will be free or something like that and the ant

shawn (19:44.981)
That's right.

Sam (19:45.836)
Well, that's an important phrase because that phrase is triggering. Right.

Matt (19:51.072)
The Anti-Defamation League calls that anti-semitic, right? And they say it's a call for violence. Of course, she says that that's not what it was. So there's a link I put in the show notes. People can decide for themselves whether it means that or not. I have Jewish friends that 100% when they hear that feel threatened by an in, yeah.

Sam (20:10.884)
It's trigger. It's triggering. Yeah.

Matt (20:13.212)
At the same time, she says that for her people, because she's the only Palestinian American in Congress, she says for her people, it just means something else, which we have this in the United States too, with the Confederate flag and other various symbols that people get upset when somebody uses them and then other people say, no, it doesn't mean that. But if you look at the history of censure, I put a link to this too, it's very rare for somebody to be censured by the House of Representatives.

and it's even more rare for them to be censored because of something they said. So in the 1860s there were people censored for making statements in support of the Confederate Rebellion. That makes sense to me. There was people censored in the 1980s for having sex with their pages. That makes sense to me. We should maybe censor that. She's the only Palestinian American in Congress, and the censor was bipartisan. And my question is, was that the right thing for Congress to do?

shawn (21:12.362)
Yeah. So I think it's, it's an unfortunate thing that she said, because everything else that she says, other than that triggering phrase, I think is pretty good, like pretty brilliant, like emotional place of like, look, I'm representing a people here as imperfect as they are, and let's discuss them too, and not just Israel. It's a great message, right? Palestinians are real people and they're children of God.

Matt (21:34.324)
And she wants them to end the genocide, right? She calls it genocide of the Palestinians.

shawn (21:37.922)
But then she starts talking about genocide and then she starts saying from the river to the sea and everything gets destroyed. That was a huge mistake. I think she did deserve to get censored over that.

Matt (21:48.98)
Really? But what about free speech? Like, don't-

shawn (21:54.031)
That's free speech. There's consequences to your free speech.

Matt (21:56.792)
Oh, I see. She was allowed to say it, but she could get censured for saying it. Yeah. I think when we... I just told you that it's super rare. It does mean something. I imagine those people in Congress didn't have sex with their pages after they got censured for having sex with their pages. Like, it is an unusual step. Of course, it's true recently that people have been censured for, like, less extreme things. I think I said when we were talking about something like this before...

shawn (22:00.738)
Yeah, it's just censoring, doesn't mean anything.

Ha ha ha.

Matt (22:26.696)
I strongly believe that people should be allowed to say whatever they want to say um without fear of being like cancelled and things like that and so I think that when society says that's too much, that's too far, you can't say that I always have a problem with that

shawn (22:44.766)
So the idea of cancel, I think I'm going to bring this up for another topic, this cancel culture thing, because there's a big difference between natural consequences and unjustly being treated, yeah, being unjustly treated because of something you say. Natural consequences, if you're going to call that cancel culture, is probably very appropriate in most cases, right? If someone does something improper that's not illegal, yeah, there should be a public response to that. And

This is what's happening, isn't it?

Matt (23:14.912)
But, but, okay, but you have heard the things that Republicans have said recently that are inflammatory, that cause violence, that lead to divisions in society.

shawn (23:25.934)
That's pretty vague. What are you talking about?

Matt (23:27.956)
Well, we could talk about any number of them, but specifically we could say Donald Trump after that Charlottesville thing, right? When he's like, there were good people on both sides. And it's like, what are you talking about, there were good people on both sides? Or in the presidential debate when Joe Biden said to Trump, why don't you condemn your racist supporters? And he's like, which supporters do you want me to condemn? And they said the Proud Boys. And he's like, Proud Boys, stand down and stand by. Which they took as like a call.

to then later on go to the Capitol. So like, there are people that say things in a political context that have very real and violent consequences.

shawn (24:03.33)
So, well hang on though, but when Trump said those things, I immediately canceled him in my own life. I was like, okay, I see what he's doing. And I immediately canceled him. Lost, I never voted for him, but I'm certainly not gonna vote for him after that. That's a natural consequence. It's his free speech. And there was a cancel culture that happened.

Matt (24:24.944)
Okay. Do you have anything to say on this one, Sam?

Sam (24:29.884)
You know, I probably don't have an opinion on the censure or not. I do think there's a strong history of anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish rhetoric. And I think rightfully so in our culture, we're very sensitive to that. And I think her speech falls into that category. And so to have that type of a speech in that place probably is worthy of, of censure. I mean, we're in a tough time. You look at the rise of anti-Semitic speech since

Matt (24:57.461)
Yeah, it's shocking.

Sam (24:58.7)
since Israel started to attack, started its attempt to get rid of this terrorism. And, you know, it's, it's shocking. Like it's, it's almost like an entire generation forgot about what happened during World War II and, and there's gotta be a check against that. And like it creeped in super, super gradually into some of the political speech. And now it's become a little bit more mainstream during this war.

Matt (25:03.468)
Yeah.

Sam (25:26.532)
And, you know, it's too bad she ends up taking the brunt of it, but clearly those terms she used were triggering as anti-Semitic and as an attempt to wipe. I mean, there are forces that want to wipe Israel completely off the map. I mean, they just, they want Israel gone. And there's a great debate over whether or not Israel should be doing what it's doing at the moment, but there's no question that they should be able to defend themselves. So centering her in that place because of that language, probably.

probably make sense as long as it doesn't stop her. So that's probably my opinion.

Matt (26:00.236)
So yeah, so it is shocking to me. Like in the Trump administration, there was a rise in the anti African-American speech that I heard just in daily discourse. Like something about the Trump administration made people feel like it's okay to be racist about black people and to express it out loud. And then the coronavirus seemed to do the same thing with Asian Americans. There was a huge rise in anti-Asian hate speech, anti-Asian action. And then with this, I see this again with

anti-semitism and I just like what's happening like are people just

Sam (26:34.62)
So, so, so let me, I don't want to defend Trump in this. Cause I know we have a strong history of, of going down the road in this show, but listen, I think one of Trump's strengths and weaknesses, Trump is great at putting people into little boxes and then just beating the living daylights out of them in those boxes. I don't know that he's necessarily at his heart, anti-Semitic. I don't think he's necessarily anti African American. I just think he does a great job of creating war against different.

Matt (26:41.006)
Yeah, it's fine.

Matt (26:56.131)
No, no, no.

Sam (27:03.052)
groups. And then he also is wonderful at creating paranoia and this whole concept of us versus them. And it's worked very well for him in his business life. And it's created a challenge in the political sphere because you're supposed to bring people together and not bring them apart. But I think you're right. We saw the rise of it there and, and he leans into this whole paranoia and this whole division. Um, and, and

Matt (27:29.408)
It's like something about it gives people permission to say things that they used to keep silent and not say out loud.

Sam (27:35.252)
Yeah, they, they lean into the worst version of themselves. The, the, you know, and COVID made it worse. People went into their houses unmedicated and started watching television. And they ended up thinking the world was a very different place than what it truly is. They believed in every conspiracy theory they could get their hands on. And they walked out of the closet after COVID worse for it. And, and he plays to that, that fear. And obviously that fear is out there because it's gaining traction.

Matt (27:47.605)
Yeah.

Sam (28:04.706)
as evidenced by his popularity in the polls.

Matt (28:07.86)
Well, and so without defending the things that this representative said, cause I don't want to defend what she said, the response I see to it is what concerns me, right? Cause I feel like the response perpetuates that because in the Republican debate, when they talk about these things, they're like, we're going to get rid of funding in the house. They're like, we're going to censure her, right? And it seems like there could be a better response to hateful speech than to continue on with the hateful rhetoric.

and shaming people and putting them in boxes and fighting against them and saying like, Ramaswami was saying like every single person on a college campus that protests is stupid and like that doesn't help, right? There's, they obviously don't think of themselves as stupid so I just feel like maybe there's a better way to handle it than to just continue with the fighting.

Sam (28:55.02)
You know what the best way to handle that sort of thing is to give it absolutely zero air time, which by the way, that debate could have been on CSC span and gotten more viewers than what it got that night. Right? Like it's irrelevant. It wasn't Trump saying it in a courtroom. Everyone knew what happened in that courtroom last week. No one knew what happened at that debate. So

Matt (29:03.544)
Hahaha

Matt (29:16.308)
Alright, so who are we giving the Thought Provoker points to on this one?

Mm-hmm. You know, you guys had this idea of giving points, and uh, and I seem to be the only one who cares.

shawn (29:23.2)
Um...

Sam (29:27.361)
Bye bye.

shawn (29:27.786)
I mean, I'll give it to you. I'm gonna give it to you, Matt, because you brought up the topic of cancel culture and that gets me thinking about what really should be the discussion. Was censoring her cancel culture, was letting Ramaswami speak, not cancel culture. So I'm gonna give it to you because it sparks me to think more about cancel culture.

Matt (29:45.963)
All right.

Sam (29:46.797)
And I'm currently fighting point inflation. So I'm going to hang onto my points. I'm going to spend them wisely later. So as not to devalue the point since I don't, I don't feel like either of you did very well. So.

Matt (29:53.11)
Okay.

shawn (29:57.899)
Hahaha

Matt (29:58.032)
Okay, alright. Alright, Sean, you're next.

shawn (30:01.602)
Alrighty. Okay, well, so this week, Joe Manchin decides that he's out of politics, at least for now. Mitt Romney seems like he's done, right? He's out of politics, he's not gonna rerun, right? In that debate, Vivek Ramasamy accused Nikki Haley of failing in her life personally, financially, and then using her political influence to get on the boards of Boeing and things like that, and she just become a millionaire, as if her political platform, like he was questioning her.

Matt (30:15.476)
He's done. Yeah.

shawn (30:31.606)
Her motives there, right? So it's clear that our government institutions are platforms for notoriety, that's clear. Does the incentive structure, my question is this, does the incentive structure of notoriety and income outweigh the altruistic duty of service and loyalty to say the values of the Constitution, for example, right? They all take an oath, these Congress, they take an oath. And it's really is all about loyalty to the principles of the Constitution. But it seems like politics has become so performative and not substantive.

So what do you think?

Matt (31:03.114)
Well, I know.

Sam (31:03.276)
Wait, Manchin's coming back. He's going to be the no label candidate, right? So he's got a plan and a strategy, right?

shawn (31:13.29)
Well, he says he's not, no, he's not going to run for reelection.

Sam (31:16.428)
he's not running for reelection but he's gonna run for the presidential uh... he's gonna run for the he's gonna make a presidential bid as part of this no labels move

Matt (31:16.513)
He's not running.

Matt (31:24.82)
I'm going to appeal to Chris Christie who might know Joe Manchin better than we do. Advise Joe Manchin to listen to this podcast. Joe, whatever it is you think the people of America like about you, you're misinterpreting that. Nobody really likes you that much, Joe. They don't. You would vote for Joe Manchin for President of the United States. Oh.

shawn (31:25.078)
I don't know.

Sam (31:27.781)
Oh no. Oh no.

shawn (31:39.018)
I like him Matt, I like him, I like him.

shawn (31:44.162)
That wasn't the question, I just said I like him because throughout his career, he hasn't been a party loyalist, he's just voted his conscience, which is something you seem to admire.

Matt (31:53.116)
Yeah, I do. I do admire that. Yeah, that's true. Okay. I like him now, Sean. You persuaded me. Listen, I'm going to say this, and I know you hate this because you don't want this podcast to be all about how one party is good and the other party is bad. But your question, the answer to your question is politics is performative for Republicans. Republicans...

shawn (31:59.991)
Okay, good.

shawn (32:12.586)
Yeah. Well, that's what I'm, oh, oh.

Matt (32:15.304)
Republicans go on the debate stage and try to be ridiculous so that they can become hosts on Fox News. Republicans go to the House of Representatives and try to impeach Joe Biden or question Hunter Biden and try to make things out of nothing so that they can get spots on Fox News. And look at the history. Who are the Fox News hosts that were former members of the House? You got Jason Chaffetz. You got Trey Gowdy. You got, you got like Republicans.

shawn (32:22.149)
Mmm.

Sam (32:38.404)
Sean Ma- Matt's out.

Matt (32:43.388)
know that there's no future for them in America. So they say, how do I make money? I go on Fox News. And then look at the history with Democrats. Look at the last Democrat presidential debates. All of those people are still in elected office. None of them are on TV. I'm just saying. Like, it's true, the Republican Party has lost its way. But it doesn't mean that everybody in politics is that bad. It's just the Republicans are that way.

Sam (32:46.548)
Oh my goodness gracious.

Sam (32:55.8)
shh

Shall I play the national anthem right now?

shawn (33:03.446)
Matt, but they, but.

Okay, all right, all right.

shawn (33:12.718)
Wow, Sam.

Sam (33:15.465)
I disagree.

Matt (33:17.228)
He was saving his points so that he could give them to me for that remark. Because that's really provo- I can see Sam's thinking a lot about this right now. He's like, let me think of a Democrat, a Democrat that's as weird as Rama Swami, or would sell their soul the way that Mark Meadows has, or that would be as bad as Jim Jordan. You can't think of a Democrat that would do that.

Sam (33:21.905)
Yeah.

Sam (33:25.801)
I-

shawn (33:40.91)
Oh, this seems a little biased, Matt. You're talking. You can't, Matt, so let's balance out. You can't think of a single Democrat whose motives are notoriety and wealth. Not a single one?

Matt (33:43.504)
I'm not, I'm just saying, look, I'm a lifelong Republican.

Matt (33:55.464)
Well, okay, there is that Democrat from New Jersey who took bribes and is probably going to go to jail. Bob Menendez.

shawn (34:01.706)
I'm not talking about crime. Matt, I'm not talking about criminals. I'm talking about the motive of most politicians.

Matt (34:09.529)
Yeah, I think, yeah these Democrats, Sean, you cannot name a charismatic Democrat that you would want to be like, wow, that person's so cool, I want to watch them on TV or something like that.

Sam (34:18.38)
Hey, Matt, why are you a registered Republican?

Matt (34:22.68)
because of where I live, if you want to have any say in what happens in politics, you have to vote in Republican primaries. Why are most of the members of the quorum of the 12 Republicans? It's for that same reason, because they want to have a say in who gets office in the state of Utah.

Sam (34:26.792)
Ah, okay.

shawn (34:37.122)
So Matt, so Matt, you, so let me, let me just make sure I understand. You think you're gonna go party line here. You think that Republicans are driven by power and greed and wealth and notoriety, and you think Democrats are all altruistic. This is what you're saying?

Sam (34:38.916)
interesting.

Matt (34:50.412)
No, no, I'm saying that the incentive structure you're talking about incentivizes Republicans to behave that way. And that same incentive structure does not exist on the Democrat side. Because the Democrat news networks are not going to reward that kind of behavior. The Demo-

shawn (34:54.136)
Yes.

shawn (35:01.418)
What?

shawn (35:05.89)
But Matt, there's more, but hang on, hang on. The notoriety that a politician get is unquestionable. They can write books, they can go on boards, whether you're Democrat or Republican. And once you've received the notoriety of a public office, you will become wealthy.

Matt (35:16.64)
Sean.

Sean, there are 535 members of Congress, and I bet if you sat down and tried to write a list of 25, you would have a hard time getting past 25 that you could even name their names. There's not a lot of notoriety in public service. So the fact that Nikki Haley...

Sam (35:36.62)
Hey, Sean, as an example, I just want to point this out. George Stephanopoulos, he was a Democrat. He held political office for a period of time. When he left political office, he did absolutely nothing to better himself. He went off into the sunset of political service and he's now retiring on the Lake shore of Lake Michigan in a little shack, just trying to enjoy his life and live on the waves of freedom.

Matt (35:50.476)
George Stephanopoulos.

shawn (36:03.566)
You ever, it's a good point, Sam.

Matt (36:04.344)
George Stephanopoulos was the... George Stephanopoulos did not hold public office. He was the press secretary for Bill Clinton.

Sam (36:06.592)
He's what, wait for, was Bill Clinton, a Democrat or Republican? I can't remember. Oh, so he was part of a Democrat, uh, administration and we don't know what his wait, what was he before? What was he before? Uh, press secretary.

Matt (36:18.216)
He was a Democrat, but like the press sec... The press secretary. Okay, so...

shawn (36:24.534)
Hey Matt! Matt.

Matt (36:27.988)
He ran Bill Clinton's campaign. He was the messaging person for Bill Clinton's campaign. He was like a college student. No, he didn't hold office. George Stephanopoulos? Alright, I'm gonna go ahead, Sean.

Sam (36:30.144)
And, and, and then what was he before that? He held political office. No, no, no. Yes, he did. Yeah. Look them up. Google it. All right. I'll Google it.

shawn (36:34.794)
Matt, what kind of notoriety?

shawn (36:41.98)
Matt, what kind of notoriety do you think that Al Gore or Bill Clinton or any of the Clintons benefited?

Matt (36:48.884)
Look, without a doubt, Sean, some people reach that pinnacle where they get some notoriety. Barack Obama, like, James Carville is not an office holder. He's a political operative. Everybody Sam is mentioning are political operatives. And of course those people get money. They work in the media. Like, that's their whole... That'd be like saying, and then all those ESPN people.

Sam (36:55.896)
James Carville, James Carville. Let's see, I'm trying to think who else. The problem is...

Sam (37:10.164)
And, and, and

Matt (37:18.28)
So there's, there's a...

shawn (37:21.858)
Matt, yeah, I'm surprised.

Matt (37:30.652)
Okay so Hillary Clinton... but Sean's talking about people that are... Oh yeah, everybody wants to be John Kerry. That's what I'm saying.

Sam (37:33.38)
John Kerry.

shawn (37:40.162)
Matt, when I say notoriety, hang on, hang on. I think I didn't ask the question right, because you're confusing notoriety with fame. I'm not talking about fame, I'm talking about wealth. The notoriety that comes takes any politician who's been out, you don't think they go back to their hometowns, you don't think they go back to their hometowns and use that leverage to get on boards of companies, start packs, get on all kinds, they are definitely using the benefit of, what I'm saying is the incentive

Matt (37:50.27)
Okay.

Sam (37:54.368)
Al gore. Al gores.

Matt (37:55.997)
Okay so...

Sam (38:07.372)
Al Gore has no notoriety. He's not trying to further any political cause. He's not raising money, trying to further an ideology that helps him raise money.

Matt (38:11.163)
Hahahaha

Matt (38:17.816)
You're choosing, okay, so once you get high in the executive branch, you start making connections with people that sure, you could be Trump's child and you could secure a $2 billion business partnership with Saudi Arabia just by function of being Jared Kushner. Oh yeah, we're gonna bring up stuff where there's no evidence that anything happened.

shawn (38:29.646)
Hey, Matt, so Matt.

Sam (38:30.812)
Oh, wait, does, does Hunter Biden count? Does Hunter Biden count? Sean, I just want the record to show that I'm giving Matt names, a lot of names. And he's just trying, he's, Hillary Clinton, Hillary Clinton. Wait, Matt, I, I need to remind you that Hillary Clinton.

shawn (38:35.159)
Ha ha ha!

shawn (38:39.372)
Oh man.

Matt (38:44.9)
No office holders! Hunter Biden, James Carville, George Stephanopoulos. Okay, listen, I'll give you the people in the White House. You have to make it to the White House.

Sam (38:58.7)
She held political office. She was voted in. Right. She ran for president of the United States of America. Do you know this? Have you, do you, yes. She was, she thought she did win.

Matt (39:01.608)
A senator. She's a senator for New York.

shawn (39:02.718)
Okay, Matt. Okay, but Matt, I think.

Matt (39:09.516)
Hillary? When was this? She surely would have won if she ran.

shawn (39:18.166)
Matt, there's a little bit of contradiction in your answer. Because first my question was, isn't the performative side of politics attracting the wrong kind of person? And your answer was, no, politics is performative. But then you said, but half of the people aren't using that for their personal gain. The point is, if it's performative instead of substantive, politicians, it's attracting politicians who are using it.

Sam (39:25.132)
performative side of politics.

Sam (39:40.516)
performative.

shawn (39:42.882)
for their personal gain.

Matt (39:44.916)
Right, what I was trying to say is that on the Democrat side you have to have some substance in order to get personal gain. On the Republican side you don't need to have substance. Okay so, can I get the points for that one? Did I persuade anybody?

Sam (39:54.18)
That's just not true. Yeah. I don't think that's true. No, no, that would, I, I think. I, I appreciate your attempt to make a point that's totally ludicrous, but it supports your political ideology, but you, you should actually go backwards in points because it was terrible. I mean, Hillary Clinton.

shawn (39:55.182)
Well, that is not true, Matt. That is ridiculous.

Not at all. You lose the you lose your last points too. I was I was

Matt (40:04.249)
Oh man.

Matt (40:10.687)
Hahaha

shawn (40:15.478)
Yeah, because Matt, I was hoping that I could get some, like I was hoping that you'd be like, yes, it's performed instead of substantive. The way to make it substantive and approach and get good people to run for office is this thing. And this, you didn't give me any positives. You just argued party lines, awful.

Matt (40:17.959)
Okay.

Sam (40:20.205)
Bill Clinton.

Matt (40:32.68)
You are upset with me because I didn't answer the question the way you wanted me to answer the question. But I answered it.

shawn (40:39.071)
And the way you answered your question. That was terrible.

Sam (40:40.149)
I'm upset.

Matt (40:41.916)
Okay Sam, let's do your topic. I hope you don't mess it up. If you...

shawn (40:45.717)
Like Matt, you...

Sam (40:49.493)
All right. So, so can, can we go away from politics for a little bit? I feel like this is a line from Hamilton. Let's get, let's get back. Let's get away from politics, not back to politics. Let's talk Elon Musk. Let's talk a technology that Elon Musk has developed that connects to people's brains. This technology was approved by the FDA a year ago, and now, uh, Musk and his company have received a

Sam (41:20.109)
And the article that's attached in the notes, the headline is thousands of people are lining up to have a portion of their skull removed and one of Elon Musk's brain chips implanted. So the idea sci-fi as it sounds is that Elon Musk has technology that can tap into the brain and can allow the brain to connect to the brain. And that's what Elon Musk is doing.

Matt (41:32.441)
Oh yay.

Sam (41:42.964)
and control devices, but then also have those devices connect and interact with the brain, which initially is going to be super cool and interesting as it allows for things like prosthetics and deal with paralysis and other challenges. But further down the road, the interesting technological advancement will be how AI interacts with that. So the question is, at some point,

Can AI, can the brain interact with AI and learn from AI? Can AI ultimately end up controlling the human body? So from a moral implication on the latter day lens, the question is, what is the gospel view on this ability to have a device implanted in the brain? And what we see in the Handbook of Instructions, advice to members to not have this device implanted for fear that AI will take over the body. Matt.

shawn (42:29.631)
I'm sorry.

Matt (42:32.408)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Well, so I did, I put a link to the 60 minutes show where they were showing people who've lost limbs and they're able to put one of these devices in their brain. And then they have a robotic arm and they can use that arm just like they did their limb before it was lost. And they, yeah, they had like four or five different people on the show. And I thought this is incredible that you could even figure that out. So

Sam (42:44.62)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (42:54.133)
which is amazing.

Sam (43:00.204)
Yeah.

Matt (43:03.948)
I think it's a very small probability that at any time the church would be like, no, don't put something in your brain that controls a robotic arm, because I can't see anything bad with that. I'm dubious.

Sam (43:14.996)
But the pundits, the pundits, Matt, say AI is the self-learning technology that allows, that allows tech to evolve over time. Could that AI tech then control the body?

Matt (43:21.18)
Yeah, that's the part I'm dubious about.

Matt (43:26.892)
Yeah.

Matt (43:30.652)
I don't think that, I think that it was a, so I think I've said this before, I believe that all inventions that are useful for mankind are inspired by the Holy Ghost at some point. The fact that people could figure out where in the brain to put these little nodes to like make that work, like there had to have been some inspiration in helping them figure that out. Now, if you're gonna try and figure out where thoughts come from, emotions come from, feeling, all that stuff,

I don't think they're ever going to pinpoint that. Just like with genetics, they've never really been able to pinpoint a lot of things they thought they'd be able to figure out. I don't think they'll ever be able to figure that out. How to have AI help with your thoughts or your attitudes or your feelings or your soul, I guess I would say. I don't think they'll be able to do that.

Sam (44:16.004)
do it is a possible the AI could cause a body to move on its own on its own and allow thought and movement on its own at some point.

Matt (44:27.077)
Oh.

Matt (44:32.136)
I feel like Sean's gonna give us a scripture now.

Sam (44:34.412)
Well, wait, before we go to Sean though, can I suggest something? I think the Democrats have figured this out. And I think the evidence of this is the fact that, as you say, Democrats are not performative and the fact that Joe Biden is still standing up straight and able to present at press conferences. So I think Joe Biden actually has, actually has, so Chris Christie, you should look into that. Joe Biden has an Elon Musk implant. All right, Sean.

Matt (44:39.574)
Hahaha

Matt (44:49.708)
Oh good, oh good. Let's hear the Rama Swami conspiracy theory.

shawn (45:01.558)
What, wait a sec.

Matt (45:01.996)
Wait, wait, Sam, did you know that was Ramaswamy's closing argument at the debate? He says, he's... He said, he said, uh, Joe Biden, why don't you stop the charade right now? We know that you're not really president of the United States, that somebody else is controlling you. Why don't the Democrats just let everybody know the truth now, that he's not actually running for president so that we can get past this charade? Yes, that was his closing argument.

Sam (45:06.324)
No, but I didn't, I didn't need to watch the debate to know that there was some crazy, stupid things said. Is that what he said? Really?

Sam (45:26.648)
Did he really say that?

And you were defending that as what worth watching. That's insane.

Matt (45:33.032)
Uh, well otherwise I wouldn't have known that there were crazy Republicans that believe that stuff. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.

shawn (45:33.102)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Sam (45:37.94)
Yeah, I'd rather watch Trump in court. That's equally as crazy and probably more entertaining, and there's a lot more people watching it. Sean, what's your take? Should AI be allowed by the church handbook of instructions or prohibited because of its ability to potentially control the human body with AI, Sean?

shawn (45:41.526)
Hahaha

Matt (45:55.184)
And or is Ramaswami proof that this has already happened? Oh yeah, Joe Biden.

Sam (45:58.796)
No, Joe Biden, Joe Biden.

shawn (46:03.827)
Well, I mean, if you look at, I think God would frown upon anything that, that compromises free agency. I think scriptures are very clear about agency and about, I mean, he frowns upon substances that affect our agency, right? He frowns upon. So to me, agency is, I mean, obviously if you're putting AI technology into your brain, you're, there's a potential, there's a risk of free agency being.

Matt (46:11.384)
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Matt (46:18.406)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (46:30.07)
Yeah.

shawn (46:30.53)
Compromised. So yeah, I think God would frown upon it, sure.

Sam (46:32.88)
Have you seen the movie Doctor Strange Love? Anybody seen it? Okay, nevermind. Nope, different movie, different movie, different movie. So Sean, you say it's concerning.

shawn (46:35.71)
Yeah. Oh, no, no.

Matt (46:35.896)
No. I've seen Dr. Moreau, Island of Dr. Moreau. Oh, okay. Is Dr. Frankenstein? Um, think about this, Sam.

shawn (46:47.21)
I think God would frown upon it, yeah, I think God would frown upon anything that compromises agency.

Sam (46:49.069)
Yeah.

Matt (46:51.484)
You know how sometimes you'll see a murder trial and somebody will be like, I was using drugs. I didn't know what I was doing. I like, and they'll use that as a defense. What if one of these AI arms like shot somebody right in their defenses? I was the AI arm. I didn't choose to do that. I was trying to tell it no, but it had a mind of its own.

Sam (47:10.052)
Okay. So, so the latter day lens podcast predicts that within 10 years that will become a defense in some court case by a Democrat, by a Democrat to justify some act of a whatever, yeah.

Matt (47:16.024)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Matt (47:23.644)
It will no longer be like by reason of insanity, it will be by reason of AI made me do it. That will be awesome. That's coming.

Sam (47:28.8)
Yes. All right.

shawn (47:29.91)
Yeah, like, like Sam, don't you, don't you think that's a big leap to go, okay, I can go on chat GPT or create an image to, with AI to, I'm going to make it a part of my, my brain and I'm going to allow it to help me function that. That's a big leap to agency being compromised.

Sam (47:33.508)
It's a huge leap. It's a.

Matt (47:40.652)
brain.

Sam (47:43.228)
It, it, it's a, it's a huge leap, but think about it two, three years ago, nobody had two years ago, nobody had heard of chat GPT and think of the amazement and awe as you asked chat GPT to do things. And it quickly responded like AI, the highest level AI is doing amazing things. It's not an extraordinary leap to think that the AI technology could control the human body as crazy as it sounds.

shawn (47:53.751)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt (48:00.755)
Yeah.

shawn (48:10.902)
Yeah. No, I think it's likely to happen. It's likely to happen, but your question is, is it immoral, right? Is it, would it be against God's will, right?

Sam (48:12.64)
And there's gotta be, it will happen. Yeah.

Matt (48:12.806)
Right.

Matt (48:19.848)
You want to know the next question? We can already grow human organs out of like pig embryos or whatever, right? Or there's the technology there you could take an aborted fetus and you could grow like human organs out of it. So why don't you just connect an AI brain to that and then you're creating Frankenstein cyber, like the technology for that stuff isn't very far away. Where you can create life with these bio and tech components mixed together.

Sam (48:26.723)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (48:31.33)
No.

Sam (48:45.056)
And, and so does the church and does the gospel lens frown on that, or does it say, Hey, it's a creation of the human mind and controlled by the human mind vis-a-vis the tech, so it's okay.

Matt (48:58.632)
Well, so my honest opinion on this is that whenever it's new, the church is opposed to it. And then give it 20 years and people see what it does and then the church is like, eh, I guess it wasn't so bad after all. But that's how it is, Sean! That's how it is! Contraception! Contraception's bad, don't use contraception. And now if I said contraception's a sin, kids would be like, what's wrong with you, man? No, no, it used to be bad. Now it's good. Like, that's what a lot of things is like then.

shawn (49:09.646)
That's dumb, Matt. Well, but.

Sam (49:11.588)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Sam (49:27.841)
I might.

shawn (49:27.996)
Well, but there's a lot of commandments that God gives us. For example, Sam, why isn't, what's your favorite energy drink? Why isn't it specifically, why isn't five-hour energy explicitly talked about as a hot drink or a strong drink? Because I think the Lord wants us to make decisions.

Sam (49:34.68)
5-Hour Energy.

Sam (49:40.584)
Because it's protected. It's protected. If we can't drink coffee, we should at least be able to have five hour energy.

shawn (49:46.729)
That's in the handbook.

Matt (49:46.732)
Have I told you about my new idea for a coffee shop in Provo? We would serve postem and we would have this drink, it would be called Dutch Brethren, and it would have a drink called the Baptismal Interview and it would be postem with a whole bunch of caffeine pills in it, so people who can't quit drinking coffee and they wanna get baptized, they could come to Dutch Brethren and have some postem with caffeine in it and be okay. Hey.

shawn (49:52.959)
Oh!

shawn (49:56.246)
I love.

shawn (50:06.35)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

That's amazing. That's actually amazing. That's amazing.

Sam (50:11.572)
Okay, before we walk away from the topic, before we walk away from the topic, who gets the points? Now that the points have been corrected, that inflation has been solved, you're prepared to deliver the points, Sean, who say you?

Matt (50:19.377)
Hahaha

Matt (50:23.024)
I spent all of my points. Yes! We should start making...

shawn (50:24.682)
Matt's business idea just got earned him the points. That was amazing.

Sam (50:28.364)
You've gotta be kidding me. By the way, there's already a Dutch Brothers by BYU. There's already a Starbucks by BYU.

shawn (50:34.602)
Yeah, right, right. No, but that point, but Sam, the point was genius, right? Like, let's take Postom that has no, and let's put what a lot of LDS people take, which is pills of caffeine, and let's just put it in there, essentially making a coffee. Let's not call it coffee, and it's okay, it's okay. Genius.

Matt (50:35.444)
We need to start making.

Sam (50:47.444)
I'm going to tell you a little secret. If there's, yeah. Okay.

Matt (50:48.637)
And...

Matt (50:52.572)
Instead of flavor shots, instead of flavor shots you pay 50 cents more for caffeine shots. Just squirt, squirt.

shawn (50:55.6)
Caffeine shots.

Sam (50:58.84)
So, so my, my Midwestern friends just laugh when I show them pictures of what, what are the soda places where people line up for blocks? Swig. I'm like, imagine a place where people wait in line for 20 minutes to get a diet Coke full of sugar. They're like, that can't happen. They're like, I'm like, it does. They're like, you're lying. And then if you're really lucky.

shawn (50:59.502)
Sam, it's a genius satire. It's genius satire.

shawn (51:09.102)
Yeah.

Matt (51:11.58)
Swig. Swig and yeah.

Matt (51:21.408)
Hahaha

shawn (51:26.498)
You know what?

Sam (51:28.024)
They have sugar cookies with really good frosting on it. No.

shawn (51:31.298)
But Sam, but, but that vice that Utah has of sugar and cookies is better than the vice that we have everywhere else, which is, oh.

Matt (51:42.896)
If ever we start doing swag as a podcast the first t-shirt the first swag we do is Dutch Brethren We're gonna copyright that It'll be a nice inside joke people be like Dutch Brethren. I like the sound of that

shawn (51:49.038)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Sam (51:49.604)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

shawn (51:55.878)
Matt, I grew up and my grandpa, who's an awesome character, he would always be drinking something. And we got older, we'd say, grandpa, what are you drinking? His answer was, this is postum, this is my postum substitute, which was coffee.

Matt (52:00.661)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (52:08.86)
Sean, in response to your earlier comment, I would say the following. I think you're probably right. There's a heck of a lot more ills to alcohol than there is to sugar. But I think we as a culture have to be careful not to be too proud that we have sugar as a vice than alcohol as a vice. Because if you look at what sugar does to the body, it's pretty, it's pretty insidious as well.

Matt (52:31.244)
Oh diabetes isn't so bad Sam. First you lose your foot.

shawn (52:31.658)
It's true.

Sam (52:34.112)
Well, the only reason diabetes isn't bad is because Joe Biden's willing to pay for it, but other than that, it's a problem.

Matt (52:39.96)
Hahaha!

shawn (52:41.642)
Now it is, I do agree with you, Sam, however, in our current prison system, half of the murderers didn't commit murder high on sugar, but alcohol was related. So there's a big societal difference between the two.

Matt (52:55.552)
That's true.

Sam (52:55.668)
Ooh. So with that, I give all my points to Sean.

Matt (52:59.504)
Okay, I give him to Sean too, but mostly because I want to move on to the big question that I'm super excited about.

shawn (53:04.706)
Thanks for the backhanded points, Matt.

Sam (53:04.876)
Perfect.

Matt (53:06.82)
I give him to Sean because he gave his to me and I owe it to him to give it back.

shawn (53:08.703)
Oh, okay.

Sam (53:11.232)
And, and by the way, we have about five minutes cause my battery's gonna die. So to our dear listener, there is now a time limit on our show today.

shawn (53:14.623)
Okay, go.

Matt (53:17.888)
Five minutes left. Okay, McKay Coppins is a member of the church who did a biography of Mitt Romney. And so for the next three episodes, we're gonna talk about things that McKay Coppins said in this interview about the book. I didn't actually read the book, but I just took these things that he said that he learned from Mitt Romney or from his journals or something like that. So this is the first question. There was a time when President Ballard came to Mitt Romney and said,

Sam (53:25.857)
Yeah.

Matt (53:45.116)
I want you to look into creating an LDS version of the Anti-Defamation League, which is an organization that defends Jewish people against anti-Semitism. And so Mitt Romney, he takes this, he takes it seriously, and he thinks about it, and he ponders it, and he decides that the biggest problem the church faces is young people leaving the church, not attacks from the media. And so then he goes back to Elder Ballard, yeah, President Ballard, and he says, I'm not going to do it.

Because I don't think it's a good idea and that just made me think this is the big question So if a member of the quorum of the 12 asks you to do something, what is the appropriate response? Like I don't want to judge mitt. I just want to like that's just the setup like what do you do?

shawn (54:16.342)
Mm-hmm

Sam (54:27.78)
Did, did, did you, did you pick elder Ballard for any particular reason having to do with operation underground railroad or something that, or that he passed away? Okay.

Matt (54:33.704)
No, that's just what the story hap-

or that he died today? No, it just really was, that was just the story that McKay Coppins told on that podcast. And so I just wonder, like, so like, and it happened with Harry Reid. President Nelson as president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles goes to Harry Reid in Congress and says, I want you to pass this constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman. And Harry Reid is like, nope, I don't think that's a good idea. And so he doesn't do it.

shawn (55:04.907)
So Sam, Sam if your battery is going to die, you give us your response because then we can either make fun of you after you leave or counter your argument. So what do you think?

Sam (55:13.472)
I'll actually, well first of all, I think everyone is taught to use their own wisdom and judgment to decide what they should do. And you know, I think politicians are smart to take that counsel and advice and then make their own decision that they can stand up to and they can defend politically. So I think

Romney was smart to do what he did. And Harry Reid was smart to stay in his own lane. I mean, infamously, Harry Reid was a great politician and represented the church very well in a very different way. I mean, he was very, he's a very well known, high ranking member of the church in the Democrat party. And he never would have been able to do that had he taken every marching order from the church. On a side note before Sean.

Uh, response. I listened to this author many times on other podcasts. I lost respect for, uh, Mitt Romney listening to this, uh, this, uh, biography. Romney gave total control to this guy and had no editorial say whatsoever. There were a lot of things that were very harmful to Romney that came out in this book. Um, I think had Romney.

Matt (56:23.313)
Yeah, I love it.

Matt (56:28.062)
Yeah.

Sam (56:30.54)
had a little more guts and ability to stand up against, you know, the press and against other forces. He might be president, he may have been president. And the fact he, I mean, he emailed this guy all of his journals in church one day, right? Without any say for how they would be digested. And I think that'll be a challenge for Rami's legacy.

Matt (56:39.777)
Yeah.

Matt (56:45.817)
I know. I know.

Right.

Matt (56:53.152)
Well so, and we'll talk about some of the other things on future episodes, but I just want to know like, Sean you're a follow the profit all the time no matter what kind of guy. Do you say no to the president of the Quorum of the Twelve if he asks you to do something?

shawn (57:05.43)
Well, it's hard because the two examples you gave, it's kind of hearsay, right? Like I would like to know the sources. For example, if the first president, or if the apostle comes to someone and says, we've got this idea to do a Mormon Anti-Defamation League, and someone says no, why wouldn't they go to someone else and get it? You know what I mean? If it was an initiative that the Lord wants done through an apostle, I don't think Mitt Romney is the only way that it can get done. So I don't.

Matt (57:27.037)
Mmm. Mmm-hmm.

Sam (57:29.908)
It's, it, it's, it's not hearsay. It was in, it was in Romney's journals. Romney had nothing to benefit by lying about it, twisting it.

Matt (57:34.081)
Yeah.

Matt (57:39.82)
But what Sean's saying is that it's not like a church thing, right? If it was a church thing, then the church will do it with or without Romney.

Sam (57:45.248)
Yes, I agree with that. Yes. Yeah.

shawn (57:49.514)
Yeah, if the church is commanded or the apostles believe that an initiative needs to be, they're going to get it done. It's going to get done. We have the resources. We have the faith to do it. So yeah, I'm questioning whether or not that specific action was like two buddies talking and going, Hey, what if we did something like this? Yeah, you do it. I'm not going to do it. I don't know the details, but the Harry Reid thing. I don't know. Is that really how it went down? Like

Sam (57:55.265)
Yeah.

Matt (58:05.178)
Ah.

Matt (58:10.92)
Yeah, that was on C-SPAN. President Nelson was on C-SPAN, begging the Senate to pass this. And Harry Reid said no.

shawn (58:18.542)
but that's different. Oh, well, but it wasn't up to, what did he ask Harry Reid to do?

Matt (58:23.424)
Harry Reid was the Senate majority leader, and he's like, we're not gonna bring that bill up. We're not gonna talk about that. That bill's not gonna see the light of day.

shawn (58:26.414)
Okay.

shawn (58:29.763)
Oh, gotcha, gotcha.

Sam (58:31.568)
It, it, it's the only way that a member of the church will ever become high ranking in political service is if they're able to make their own decisions and defend them. That was the biggest paranoia about Romney was that he would, you know, the infamous, Holland interview, right? That was the biggest fear of, of non-members of the church is that they would take marching orders from the church and that you can't.

shawn (58:40.909)
and make

Matt (58:47.818)
Yeah.

Matt (58:55.476)
So what I hear both of you saying is it's contextual. If a member of the Quorum of the Twelve gives you a calling, that's different than them saying, what do you think about this idea? Or, hey, we would really like to see this happen, but it's not in official capacity that I'm asking you.

shawn (59:11.754)
Is it a con? Well, Matt, would it be a conspiracy theory to suggest that maybe Elder Nelson at the time said, we need to do a public display to show that we don't influence you in Congress? So I'm going to pitch something, you're going to reject it. Is that weird to suggest?

Matt (59:27.601)
I don't think that President Nelson is that kind of a person. Like he's that sort of a, let's just make a show, right? I think he's sincere in everything he says. I think that President Nelson sincerely thought he could persuade members of the Senate to pass this legislation or this amendment or whatever.

And I think that the church really felt like it was an important thing to do. It was around the time of Prop 8. And the whole thing with Prop 8 was like this idea of we start in California and then we go national. And so I really think that they thought that they could get something like that through.

shawn (59:57.938)
So what's interesting about the whole topic and Prop 8 was we in California were asked to do it, right? The Apostles came out and said do it. We did it and it did work. It worked as far as getting the thing passed. Now later on there was backlash and it was overturned. However, like is the question should we? There were some members here who were like, you know what? I don't feel right about going out knocking on doors. I'm not going to do it.

Matt (01:00:11.399)
Yeah.

Matt (01:00:23.464)
Yeah. Yeah, that's my take on it actually, is I say, any church leader who asks me to do something, I take it to the Lord, I ponder, I pray about it. I think I do exactly what Mitt Romney does. And if I think that it's not the right thing to do, then I go tell them it's not the right thing to do. And then if they want to be more heavy-handed, that's on them to choose to be more heavy-handed. I think I told you guys before that I go to choir, because I was basically told I have to go to choir, right? So I do just follow sometimes.

shawn (01:00:48.21)
Yep, yep, you said that.

Matt (01:00:52.undefined)
But if they said, hey, go to choir, and I was like, no, that's not the right thing for my family, and I prayed about it and felt that I would push back. It doesn't matter if they're in the 12 or not in the 12. You always kind of take it to the Lord and say, okay, is this a time I just follow, or is this a time I say, no, this isn't right?

shawn (01:00:57.334)
You do.

Sam (01:01:10.325)
Did he ask Mitt Romney to go save, you know, travel worldwide and save sex slaves or kids and no? Okay. Just curious.

Matt (01:01:17.472)
Hahaha

Hahaha

Sam, that's a great way to end the podcast for today. Thanks listener for joining with us on this exciting journey all over the place. If somebody says, what is this podcast about? It's about having fun. And that's what we're doing. Hope you all join us next week. Talk to you later.